Iron Mother

Questions about the TV show end V book end

10 posts in this topic

So, I try to imagine how this worked out or happened.... did they have a board meeting with GRR and probe him on generalities of the end of his story as would eventually appear in his books?  Did the show even try to get some form of "summation" from Martin about HIS end so they could complete a (by comparison) a quick and dirty version in the TV show?

I found it very odd and interesting that in the released chapters of Winds of Winter, there are 2 Arianne chapters that go even further into the Jon Connington/Aegon plot.  This plot device has been scorned perhaps universally by book readers... except, when I saw those 2 chapters, it told me there was going to be a huge difference of direction between book and TV.  Arianne never made it into the TV show, neither did Connigton or Aegon or any of their crew. 

Before I go on, based on those chapters, I find it so bizarre that there is apparently no one inhabiting Storm's End -- rather, no heirs to Robert in any form (Stannis and Renly were IT?) - and Connington goes up from Griffin's Roost and basically just takes it for their cause.  The TV show cut off Prince Doran and his plots put into motion over years (to marry Arianne to Viscerys to sending Quentyn (who?) to go try to marry Daenerys.  The fact Arianne is going to ascertain the Connington Crew is completely different than the TV show........ and there are many other things.

So again, I wonder if anyone knows HOW or in what way GRR "guided" the show's end (if at all) to make it line up with the end in his head even if in vague ways that wouldn't give away too much of the "real" story yet to be unfolded in his coming books.

Lastly, I had a thought that could it be Jon being the son of Rhaegar is not even where the books were/are going?  In terms of another Targaryen.  Could it be the Connington Crew and Young Griff were to fulfill that role?  Please be polite in answering this... some people hate that anyone talks about "Fakegon" but with these new chapters focusing on
them... AND that Arianne (the heir to Dorne!) is going up to ally with them AND they have taken Storrm's End, AND AND Tyrion spent time with them and basically convinced Aegon not to on his knees to Daenerys but to land in Dorne and then she would come to him.... it's a little much to be a rouse. 

Bringing it home, what does anyone think about what went on if Martin guided the show to its end or not (even in generalities).  To me it seems unlikely because for example WHAT if Sansa is going to die in the books?  Yet on TV they have her overcoming the Boltons and allied/with Jon, etc... the show moved a lot of pieces around.  They either had to have guidance they could fix it when the time came OR they just said "ok from now on we are going to do whatever WE THINK would happen".  And that doesn't make sense either because I do not believe the show writers could - out of thin air - create a really dynamic ending to the story without knowing even bare bones of specific plot lines.

 

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Posted (edited)

Oh boy...here we go again :D

You will get hundreds of comments and none of them will answer your question :P

*Grabs popcorn*

Edited by Dragonsbone

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Posted (edited)

Ok, here's what I think could've happened: 

Say you're a writer of the show and you have to decide what to keep and what to cut from the books. 

On one hand, you have a relatively well-written chapter with good sense of setting and character, and with interesting details and tidbits and unpredictable twists (so not the Arianne chapters from Winds because those are fucking terrible). 

On the other hand, you have GRRM awkwardly telling you what's gonna happen at the end of the story. There's no details, no figurative language, no nothing, just the Cliffnotes version of the story. 

Which of the two do you feel more compelled to keep and adapt into the show? 

Pretty obvious, huh? It's the difference between watching a movie and having a friend tell you the plot. No, it's slightly more different than that. It's the difference between your contractor saying "Oh, this house's gonna be great, chief, you'll see" and actually seeing the house finished. 

Add to this mess two show writers whose egos were getting a bit too heavy, and you get the current monstrosity that people call "Game of Thrones."

Basically, it all comes back to GRRM screwing himself up by not writing faster. 

Edited by Good Guy Garlan

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I think that the outcome of this story orignally was going to be just however George deicded.

Im not convinced this is the case anymore, either for the show or the books. Many other influences are at play now on how the overall story and fate of specific characters will end. 

We may never know exactly what GRRM had planned (and Im sure we'll be given a spiel about it - though it will be total PR BS), but Id bet my house the story will not end that way now.

ASOIAF/ Game of Thrones is a worldwide phenomenon and has penetrated pop culture. Its not going to have a wholly depressing or unsatisfying ending with most popular characters sying, even if George envisioned it that way. This story is now going to have a fairly standard, typical Hollywood blockbuster type ending.

Character development, such a core focus in the books, matters little in the show.

Each character now just has a specific niche role to fill and they will continue to be used in a way that maximises the effect of that.

For example, Arya isnt given much screentime now because they are using her pretty much just for "shock and awe" moments. 

Cersei gets lots of screentime (triple what she should) and is the antagonist everyone loves to hate, or hates to love.

Tyrion is used for his wisecracks and wisdom.

The Hound is used to showcase moments of comedic violence and to be the monster with a heart. He is the beast.

Bran is used for special effects and to reveal plot points which could not really be easily revealed without him.

etc etc

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1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

ASOIAF/ Game of Thrones is a worldwide phenomenon and has penetrated pop culture. Its not going to have a wholly depressing or unsatisfying ending with most popular characters sying, even if George envisioned it that way.

Why not? People jerked over R1, and they like horror movies where almost or just everyone dies.

You think they can't handle it?

1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

This story is now going to have a fairly standard, typical Hollywood blockbuster type ending.

Character development, such a core focus in the books, matters little in the show.

Each character now just has a specific niche role to fill and they will continue to be used in a way that maximises the effect of that.

For example, Arya isnt given much screentime now because they are using her pretty much just for "shock and awe" moments. 

You're basing that on just the one instance of her reappearing in the Twins?

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No. 

5 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Why not? People jerked over R1, and they like horror movies where almost or just everyone dies.

You think they can't handle it?

You're basing that on just the one instance of her reappearing in the Twins?

No. I'm basing it on the use of her character the past two seasons. Also, interesting how you only quoted the Arya part when I mentioned several other character examples to illustrate how the show is using characters to fill a certain niche role the show has created for them. Actual character and development don't matter.

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Her entire training arc through 5 and 6 was all one giant "shock and awe moment", or are you rather saying each scene she appeared in was a shock and awe moment?

Like whenever Jaqen told her some wisdom thing, it was a shock and awe moment?

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Posted (edited)

personally I love the Dorne element (Arianne and Faekgon, etc in WoW) I think other than The North, it's the most interesting thing going on.  It's everyone's opinion.  I only know Cercei and Jamie are dead to me, yet, their wombed romance and lives of sin drone on and on.

I only messed with the idea of if the book does something so radical from the show, it would be very lame.  And no one could predict past just prior to the coming WoW because it was only in GRRs mind.

Maybe the best example is Arya... her story was way different in the book than what they are doing in the show.  They're just cramming it based on "character recognition" and tying up the plots of the existing characters who have been on the show for a long time and are well-liked by the audience.  Arya's story is really deep and requires lots of kind of "meta" themes.  In the show it was so beyond basic.  As in "Mercy" representing Arya choosing to not kill her.  duh but confrontation with "faewaif" must be had so she is forced to choose to return to Westeros - somehow at the joy of Jaqen.  The book was taking Arya to cool places, the show chose common gore and Sweeny Todd callbacks (which were originally Shakespeare) of bodies in pies.

Everything Dorne in the books (except Quentyn what a waste) is awesome.  The sand snakes, all Arianne's friends, Areo Hotar, all of it.  The books barely feature Elaria which is more real than her ruling Dorne.  And Tyienne isn't even her daughter.  But in the show, Cercei will kill Elaria's non-daughter in front of her in revenge for Myrcella.  If I can predict it, then it shouldn't be.  In the book chapter "The Watcher", one of the sand snakes was going to be on the Small Council and another was going to be secretly in The Sept (the one that has not exploded) and they were going to work from within to ruin House Lannister. 

And the show gives us what it has?  And people don't think Dorne would not be a really cool element?  And the fact Arianne was hooking up with Connington I think just brings in an element nobody wants to talk about.  But Dorne's heir to the throne is in peril going to Storm's End in WoW chapters... to me, that's a lot of setup for a japed Fakegon. 

 

WoW

Edited by Iron Mother

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Given how Dorne played out in the show (was wasted), you wonder why they didn't include Arianne.

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So the question is what...? Whether or not D&D had a meeting with GRRM about the end of the books so they could have the direction of their ending right? 

Yes, I am sure they had a meeting with GRRM and I think he told them the end of relevant plot lines. I Also think that he refused to give them details if they asked for it (which I'm not sure they did, for the record). Now,  D&D obviously altered irrelevant plot lines which sometimes worked and often didn't work. And what direction they took once they ran out of books to adapt was and is entirely up to them. I mean how can you possible expect anybody to adapt something nonexistent faithfully. I'm not saying it's good, but there's no basis to compare it to the books that have not and most likely will not come out. They will probably honor the story enough to reach roughly the same main conclusions GRRM planned to. Of course I wouldn't put it past them to take the liberty and make a couple changes to what GRRM had imagined for the sake of fanservice. And I also wouldn't put it past GRRM that, in the unlikely case he does finish at least one of the remaining books, he will make changes to his original plans too - just so they are different from what people guessed or saw on the show. 

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