Val is Jon’s true Queen. Four.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Mance is a little funny (don't we all know ).

His personal headgear is a winged helm. Now, does this signify he is symbolic messenger, escape artist, or Odin-y dude? It does not seem to be anything her inherited from anyone. At this point I lean towards #2- escape artist. He escapes the Night's Watch, escapes his death with the Rattleshirt switch, he escapes his captivity by convincing Melisandre that the the girl in grey was near Long Lake, but instead he takes off on his own mission to Winterfell. Who knows how long Mance can keep escaping

The other thing is that we see Mance as a "king" when he is set up in a rather "kingly" site. When we first meet Mance, Jon is taken to a white snow bear tent that has a set of antlers atop the doorway. My slight crackpot is that one day Jon may have to slay Mance (if he is still alive), and in doing so, Jon once again wins the faith and following of the free folk... even though they are already bowing to Jon like a king and have paid him homage as they passed through the wall.

I was going to mention Mance's Raven helm too, it's a good thing I decided not to at the last moment, since you've done a much better job on it then I could!

On snow bear pelts; I'm not so sure, we see other people wearing bear pelts and at least one, Crowfood, is wearing a snow bear pelt.

However, if it's true I wonder what does that imply on Tormund tearing the pelt of a she bear(possibly a snow bear).

On snow bears I've also found these

Quote

Was that their king?" asked Jon.

"Giants have no kings, no more'n mammoths do, nor snow bears, nor the great whales o' the grey sea. That was Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg. Mag the Mighty. You can kneel to him if you like, he won't mind. I know your kneeler's knees must be itching, for want of some king to bend to. Watch out he don't step on you, though. Giants have bad eyes, and might be he wouldn't see some little crow all the way down there by his feet."

 

...

Varamyr had lost control of his other beasts in the agony of the eagle's death. His shadowcat had raced into the woods, whilst his snow bear turned her claws on those around her, ripping apart four men before falling to a spear. She would have slain Varamyr had he come within her reach. The bear hated him, had raged each time he wore her skin or climbed upon her back.

 

I wonder what you'll make of it, I think it is perhaps that snow bears love their freedom.

[Tagganaro]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:13 PM, Fire Eater said:

Anyone who knows people can tell that she clearly likes him. Of course, Jon currently has the same problem as another Lord Commander, Jaime, has with his tough, blue-eyed blonde that he sent off to find someone, Brienne. Jaime deep inside likes Brienne, but he doesn't know it or admit it. He hits Ser Ronnet Connington for insulting Brienne, and he has what Sam would call a "rising" when in a tub with her. He has trouble coming to terms with it partly because of his loyalty to Cersei, and another is that Brienne doesn't fit his image of an ideal partner. Jon, OTOH, admits that Val is an attractive girl, and "she would make a worthy wife for any lord." She manages to make him smile even though "he knew he should not smile, but he did." He has trouble coming to terms with his feelings for Val mainly because of his loyalty to his vows. 

Completely agree that Val has feelings for Jon, and I would also say the same goes for Jon and how he feels about Val- it's clear he likes her and is into her, and I would say a lot of the melancholy nature of Jon's chapters in ADWD is his pining for Val and his regret over being elected LC and maybe not taking Stannis's offer?  Although I can't imagine Jon could ever accept Stannis's offer of Winterfell as it was constructed, there's definitely regret when you see how miserable he is as LC, how he wants to help Stannis against the Boltons, and maybe even some projection in terms of the marriage he makes for Alys Karstark which in a lot of ways exactly mirrors the proposed marriage to Val.

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Mance is a little funny (don't we all know ).

His personal headgear is a winged helm. Now, does this signify he is symbolic messenger, escape artist, or Odin-y dude? It does not seem to be anything her inherited from anyone. At this point I lean towards #2- escape artist. He escapes the Night's Watch, escapes his death with the Rattleshirt switch, he escapes his captivity by convincing Melisandre that the the girl in grey was near Long Lake, but instead he takes off on his own mission to Winterfell. Who knows how long Mance can keep escaping

The other thing is that we see Mance as a "king" when he is set up in a rather "kingly" site. When we first meet Mance, Jon is taken to a white snow bear tent that has a set of antlers atop the doorway. My slight crackpot is that one day Jon may have to slay Mance (if he is still alive), and in doing so, Jon once again wins the faith and following of the free folk... even though they are already bowing to Jon like a king and have paid him homage as they passed through the wall.

Good stuff.  Definitely have to agree that Mance's headgear signifies his ability as an escape artist, also wings are a perfect symbolism of freedom, the ability to go anywhere at anytime and do what you want...perhaps nobody in ASOIAF embodies that more than Mance who has 'tasted the Dornishman's wife' over and over and over again.  Mance's face is described numerous times as having laughing lines, which again solidify him as this kind of escape artist trickster character.

To the bolded, yes I love this.  Not sure I'd even say it's crackpot or slight crackpot, I think it is heavily foreshadowed by Mance and Jon's duel in the practice yard.  Jon gets his ass kicked of course (seems like Mance may in fact be one of the best, if not the best fighters in the North), and we're left wondering how much of that is Jon being confused by Mel's glamour.  But afterwards, Jon even thinks to himself "It would have gone differently if I had Longclaw."  Definitely seems like it may foreshadow a later fight between Jon and Mance.  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I was going to mention Mance's Raven helm too, it's a good thing I decided not to at the last moment, since you've done a much better job on it then I could!

On snow bear pelts; I'm not so sure, we see other people wearing bear pelts and at least one, Crowfood, is wearing a snow bear pelt.

Just quickly as I only have a few minutes and want to get a few things out before I forget them, but as far as the idea that snow bear pelts could possibly represent royalty and then we see an Umber wearing a snow bear pelt, if we think back and remember that the Umbers were first men kings way, way back. However, the Umber sigil is the giant breaking his chains, which kinda plays in to your idea below about snow bears love their freedom , and also what is about to happen with the Umbers as hostages in TWOW.

And also, Crowfood is the one to have had a daughter "stolen" by free folk, and fandom theory that Mance knows who she is and is working with Crowfood to get her back also strengthens that free folk connection. Also, this wearing the skins is a type of (non-literal) skinchanging in ASOIAF and also in some of GRRM's other stories. It is done as a way to imbue yourself with the strength or talent of the animals (or person) whose skin you are wearing. But that is another topic...

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the (1) Flints of Breakstone Hill, (2) the Slates of Blackpool, (3) the Umbers of Last Hearth,(4) the Lockes of Oldcastle, (5) the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, (6) the Fishers of the Stony Shore, (7) the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the (8) Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

 

And by the way, this makes nine kings of winter from historic north if you count the Starks that were there at the time, and we have that circle of nine weirwood trees where Jon takes his NW oath that begins when night gathers . Either way, nine standing together.

 

Also funny, the Boltons aren't listed in that old winter kings group (they were red kings), but they are listed in the Night's King tale along with these other houses as a suspected Night's King identity. May be something, may not?

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

However, if it's true I wonder what does that imply on Tormund tearing the pelt of a she bear(possibly a snow bear).

On snow bears I've also found these

 

I wonder what you'll make of it, I think it is perhaps that snow bears love their freedom.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

posting this here to get back to later when I have more time

Jon enters Mance's tent and mistakes who is who in the ranking/king system.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Come-into-my-castle

Come-into-my-castle is a game played by multiple individuals, usually children. The game is designed to teach noble children about courtesy, heraldry, and the friends and enemies of their house. Usually only nobles play the game, as commoners do not have castles.^[1]

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the (1) Flints of Breakstone Hill, (2) the Slates of Blackpool, (3) the Umbers of Last Hearth,(4) the Lockes of Oldcastle, (5) the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, (6) the Fishers of the Stony Shore, (7) the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the (8) Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

 

And by the way, this makes nine kings of winter from historic north if you count the Starks that were there at the time, and we have that circle of nine weirwood trees where Jon takes his NW oath that begins when night gathers . Either way, nine standing together.

 

Also funny, the Boltons aren't listed in that old winter kings group (they were red kings), but they are listed in the Night's King tale along with these other houses as a suspected Night's King identity. May be something, may not?

 

That could be because Boltons weren't reduced to vassals by Starks, not with a fight anyway. Just as Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon during the invasion, Red Kings peacefully bent the knee to the Starks at the start of the Andal Invasion.

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

That could be because Boltons weren't reduced to vassals by Starks, not with a fight anyway. Just as Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon during the invasion, Red Kings peacefully bent the knee to the Starks at the start of the Andal Invasion.

I agree. Yeah, I couldn’t resist that Bolton mention, which of course is a whole discussion in its own, which of course has to do with rubies, garnets, blood thirst, skinchagner powers, etc.