Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ

[Kalbear]

And no, Bakker is not remotely going to be anything like Tolkien. It's funny; I happened to be reading the Hobbit at the same time I was reading Bakker, and the two could not be more dissimilar. The Battle of the 5 armies, for instance, is like 5 total pages at best.

[LuckyCharms]

Wert has said that TUC proper is 450 pages. Is this including the 'what has come before' section?—if this volume even includes one. The Great Ordeal, contrary to all other volumes, had it's recap included in the actual page count. So a 498 page book was actually only 460 pages of literature. Is this the case with TUC? Is it actually 450 pages or more like 420 pages?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

We'll crowdfund him like Grimdark did, we will get it, somehow.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Just now, Kalbear said:

And no, Bakker is not remotely going to be anything like Tolkien. It's funny; I happened to be reading the Hobbit at the same time I was reading Bakker, and the two could not be more dissimilar. The Battle of the 5 armies, for instance, is like 5 total pages at best.

No, not saying their alike in that sense. His work will get its due, just later than it should.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No, not saying their alike in that sense. His work will get its due, just later than it should.

Okay, let's do this.

I want you to write down what would disappoint you in Unholy Consult if it either did happen or you didn't get an answer to it. What would bother you, specifically. Even the biggest fans must have something that would bother them or disappoint them in some way, right? So - what would bother you or disappoint you with its lack, or with its presence?

[Sheep the Evicted]

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

He has, but he has no publishing deal, he has nothing lined up, and he has no timeline. This is somewhat problematic for releasing things. 

 

At this point Bakker could probably self publish and he'd make a decent amount. Couldn't be worse then his books are currently doing surely.

 

6 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No, not saying their alike in that sense. His work will get its due, just later than it should.

 

I feel like they should but they won't. The first trilogy is just too high a barrier to entry.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

 

At this point Bakker could probably self publish and he'd make a decent amount. Couldn't be worse then his books are currently doing surely.

Maybe, but it's likely that it wouldn't happen for a while. TGO/TUC took somewhat long because he had to get a normal job; having to self-publish would almost certainly require that and more. 

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

I feel like they should but they won't. The first trilogy is just too high a barrier to entry.

Given that Pat and Wert are both saying that many fans may riot if the series ends right now, I think that it might be a bit premature to declare him the new Tolkien. You might want to wait until Return of the King, right?

[Darth Richard II]

25 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Oh, you see, I am a optimist. I don't get hung up on those details, it'll fall into place. In 50 years Bakker will be the new Tolkien, wanna bet?

I'll take that bet! 22 schmekels!

[Lord Patrek]

TUC (the story) is 451 pages long, which includes the 12-page "What has gone before."

And we need the next series, for this is too much of a cliffhanger at the end!

[Sheep the Evicted]

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Given that Pat and Wert are both saying that many fans may riot if the series ends right now, I think that it might be a bit premature to declare him the new Tolkien. You might want to wait until Return of the King, right?

You're absolutely right but for some reason i'm confident he will stick the landing even while acknowledge the curveball potential this series has and just how many expectations he has to meet. Speaking of which..

I dont really have any specific expectations for the series. All i need is for the conclusion to make my heart beat faster and his final Revelations to blow my mind. If I say "holy shit" out loud while reading his book then Bakker has, in my eyes, succeeded. 

Oh but the challenge is he needs to do that without breaking my suspension of disbelief too badly. As long as he keeps giving vaguely plausible answers to the series' innumerable mysteries, without any dues ex machina dream sequences, then I'm a happy chappy.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

Oh but the challenge is he needs to do that without breaking my suspension of disbelief too badly. As long as he keeps giving vaguely plausible answers to the series' innumerable mysteries, without any dues ex machina dream sequences, then I'm a happy chappy.

And I'll challenge you again on this - like what? Give an example of something that would be problematic as a deus ex machina dream sequence for you. 

[Sheep the Evicted]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And I'll challenge you again on this - like what? Give an example of something that would be problematic as a deus ex machina dream sequence for you. 

God is a white-beareded old man and Kellhus negotiates humanities salvation ala The Matrix. That would do it.

Just as long as God, the gods and Kellhus' solution are remain suitably alien while being thematically consistent. I also want one last piece of existential horror; something subtle and awful to be overcome in a similar fashion.

 

I guess if I have to be really specific it would be something like my pet theory which is that the Legion inside all of us, most of the Darkness that Comes before, is nothing more than the voice of the gods twisting and pulling and pushing us like automaton forcing us to damn ourselves. Something like the ending of the first bioshock. We are nothing more than fancy Sranc.

 

But it's up to Bakker to blow my mind any way he wants, im not gonna do his job for him, I'm just going to see how it feels then dissect it after the fact and see if it even vaguely holds up to scrutiny and if it does then I'll be thoroughly satisfied. I realise its not much but unlike you Kal im not super invested in any theories, I just need it to feel right and he's been doing a fine job so far.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

God is a white-beared old man and Kellhus negotiates humanities salvation. That would do it.

That'd be pretty funny. Maybe he goes and talks to a well-groomed dude with a lot of lighting.

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

I guess if I have to be really specific it would be something like my pet theory which is that the Legion inside all of us, most of the Darkness that Comes before, is nothing more than the voice of the gods twisting and pulling and pushing us like automaton forcing us to damn ourselves. Something like the ending of the first bioshock. We are nothing more than fancy Sranc.

Isn't that kind of the implication though - that we're all just meat and grain for the gods, and our souls desire things that cause damnation? I kind of thought that was almost verbatim what was written - that gods need souls to be damned for sustenance, and thus the flesh of our bodies desires sin that will damn, even as the soul fights.

That's kind of the implication of the sranc - and of the humans eating the sranc. 

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

 I realise its not much but unlike you Kal im not super invested in any theories, I just need it to feel right.

I'm curious what theories you think I am invested in. I've spent a lot of time talking about various ideas, but most of them are contradictory and can't possibly be true. Kellhus cannot be both damned and holy, as an example. I had a pretty clear theory that Kellhus invented the nuke and planted it, which has since been proven to be false. For a while I thought that the nonmen killed all their women instead of allowing them to birth sranc, but I don't think that's true any more (though boy did I want that to be true). I thought the Axolotl tank idea for the Dunyain would be right on, but I really hated the implementation of it.

Obviously I would think this, but in general I care less about the what than the how, and as long as it is reasonably explained and set up I'm cool with a whole lot of things. I didn't like the Whale Mothers because I felt that they were a stupid genetic issue, as an example, but I thought Koringhus' idea of how the world worked was pretty neat, even if it hadn't been set up super well. I didn't like the rocks fall, everyone dies killing Theliopia because, well, rocks fall, everyone dies is not super awesome, and the way the White Luck just kind of faltered was a bit jarring. I didn't like Esme's Schrodinger's fate because I felt that being unclear there wasn't a good deal for writing's sake. 

[Darth Richard II]

I'm curious about this supposed cliffhanger now. Is it going to be like the matrix sequel where its like, lol sorry see you next week or more liek some of those Marvel movie end stingers where its like OMG SO AND SO IS BACK.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

13 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I'm curious about this supposed cliffhanger now. Is it going to be like the matrix sequel where its like, lol sorry see you next week or more liek some of those Marvel movie end stingers where its like OMG SO AND SO IS BACK.

I feel its gonna be the fate of Kellhus. 

ETA: though I would super, super love for Moe to be the Voice that Kellhus speaks with.

[Darth Richard II]

I think maybe someone should start a spoiler thread soon.

[Hello World]

I'm annoyed already just thinking that it will end with a cliffhanger. I thought we were done with this after last book.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah, july is going to be super fun happy time round these parts.

[wayward_ishroi]

On May 6, 2017 at 7:20 PM, Werthead said:

Pretty much. Siol was the largest, most populous and most powerful Mansion, so it falling first (and Nihrimsul shortly thereafter) would make sense, as it would reduce the Nonmen quite considerably from being able to respond effectively

Siol was the oldest (first, primordial) and boasted the most warlike glory.

Cil Aujas was the most populous

Ishoriol was next most populous

[redeagl]

7 hours ago, Hello World said:

I'm annoyed already just thinking that it will end with a cliffhanger. I thought we were done with this after last book.

Yeah because we never knew before that there will be a third series.