Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ

[Calibandar]

I definitely think we should be ready for a semi-conclusion, something that ties up most of the storylines and the arc of TAE proper, but leaves us not just with some questions, but with some unresolved plot stuff as well.

I'm not making any apologies for that before I've read it; ideally you'd see a lot of closure with the future of the series unclear.

And maybe we'll get that and the questions/developments I want to know about are answered. But Scott has been clear the last year that he has started work on the final duology and I expect that if he pulls through on that, there will be a publishing deal. But seeing as how it's early days yet, we're likely two or three years away from seeing another book. TUC will be it, for the near future.

 

[End of Disc One]

8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah, july is going to be super fun happy time round these parts.

I predict no bitching whatsoever, and very little arguing.  

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, redeagl said:

 

Yeah because we never knew before that there will be a third series. 

Prince of nothing ended without any kind of real cliffhanger, but it was known another series was on the way. I think people are hoping for more of that kind of ending.

[profgrape]

I'm guessing it'll be a tighter version of TTT's ending.  TTT resolved the main narrative arc (Holy War) while leaving open the Consult arc.  TAE will resolve the Great Ordeal / Consult arc while leaving open something else...  maybe the war against the damnation?

[Damelon]

1 hour ago, End of Disc One said:

I predict no bitching whatsoever, and very little arguing.  

...and very very little theorizing and discussing.

[Hello World]

More info added on the page Nonmen under 'Mythology' from the new glossary. I'm assuming this isn't relevant to the plot of TUC otherwise you might want to hold off on posting it until the book is out...

[Lord Patrek]

I reckon that a lot of people here and at The Second Apocalypse message board won't be happy. The more hardcore fandom probably will be pissed that a lot of the metaphysical stuff (which basically only you guys obsess about!) is not necessarily addressed. Or at least not fully in several cases.

When Wert and I said that the ending could cause riots among fans, we weren't kidding!

[Damelon]

4 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I reckon that a lot of people here and at The Second Apocalypse message board won't be happy. The more hardcore fandom probably will be pissed that a lot of the metaphysical stuff (which basically only you guys obsess about!) is not necessarily addressed. Or at least not fully in several cases.

When Wert and I said that the ending could cause riots among fans, we weren't kidding!

Patrick, do you have any (clear) idea about the title of the 3rd series, after having read TUC?

[jurble]

 

 

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

More info added on the page Nonmen under 'Mythology' from the new glossary. I'm assuming this isn't relevant to the plot of TUC otherwise you might want to hold off on posting it until the book is out...

Went and read it.  Seems like Nonman mythology is nonsense and doesn't hold any deeper answers or relevance.

Unless... (spoilered for the sake people who don't want even infos from that glossary that Wert or whoever has updated the Wiki with)

 

Imimorul actually was a God that made Nonmen out of lions.  'cuz why not?

[lokisnow]

I'm hoping my reaction to the ending is like "fuck. Shit. What? That, really?! Fuck!"

which interpreted, would mean i am hoping for a resolution overall to some things but "the cliffhanger" indicates the coming pivot to of the final series, a more set up cliffhanger ala "for the watch" rather than "I'm Not going to write the next chapter for fifteen years, Let's leave someone dangling on the end of a rope trying to say a word" sort of cliffhanger .

i expect most people to be unsatisfied because series rarely satisfy fandoms with their long awaited conclusions, if I don't like it, I plan on trying to examine the technicals of what the writing is accomplishing as usually that's a decent task to divorce myself from an emotional reaction and look at the text from a new angle.

[lokisnow]

Should we revive the optimal tip to tip damnation thread and make that the only up to TGO spoilers thread and make the next Bakker thread the TUC spoiler thread. People are getting the ARCs.

[Lord Patrek]

1 hour ago, Damelon said:

Patrick, do you have any (clear) idea about the title of the 3rd series, after having read TUC?

None whatsoever. . .

[Damelon]

10 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Should we revive the optimal tip to tip damnation thread and make that the only up to TGO spoilers thread and make the next Bakker thread the TUC spoiler thread. People are getting the ARCs.

Yes.

[Damelon]

1 minute ago, Lord Patrek said:

None whatsoever. . .

My my. The mystery deepens.

[wayward_ishroi]

Lots of tidbits in the glossary.

 

Spoiler

By the year 4132, all the remaining Nonmen of Ishterebinth have joined the Consult save for their last King, Nil’giccas, whose pride drove him to abandon the Mansion and become an Erratic instead.[3]

 

All of you receivers-of-ARC(-and-pen?):

Do we see Emilidis?

 

[Hello World]

Wait, that last one is from earlier books...

Spoiler

Anyway, going back to the new post,

 

Quote

According to Cûnuroi traditions, Imimorûl was not imprisoned within the earth, but sought refuge in the “Deepest Deep,” those places the gods could not judge because they could not see.

So the deepest deep isn't simply to go deep inside earth but some sort of ritual? Does it have any similarities with Dunyain rituals? Like the "logos is without beginning of end" thing?

Quote

Fathomings were most common undertaken by those upon the threshold of death, the thought being that the Deepest Deep lay on the edge of Oblivion.

Does this have anything to do with what that guy said about the thresholds not being holy anymore?

 

 

[wayward_ishroi]

Though we know from TGO that at least 12 are still intact... and thousands are barely alive wretches in the bowels of ishterebinth.

 

Unrelated, but Nil'giccas would have been born AFTER arkfall. 

Arkfall

Siol conquers Viri, Cil Aujas, Nihrimsul. CC is king of 4 mansions.

Nihrimsul revolts

Sin nihroiha weds Ishoriolan Tsonoi. 

Nil'Giccas presumably then born.

[Kalbear]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that anything that Wert edits is almost certainly not particularly relevant to the TUC story, as he was absurdly cautious to not spoil anything and would continue to do so. 

Odd question: why do people on Earwa call it the first apocalypse?

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, redeagl said:

Yeah because we never knew before that there will be a third series. 

Scott would have to answer on when contracts were signed, but I vaguely recall that TAE was signed up before PoN was finished, so we knew the story would continue. That's not the case now.

Quote

 

More info added on the page Nonmen under 'Mythology' from the new glossary. I'm assuming this isn't relevant to the plot of TUC otherwise you might want to hold off on posting it until the book is out...

 

Completely irrelevant, but endlessly fascinating. Actually, wasn't there a lot of talk here and on TSA about the lack of mythology/creation stories for the Nonmen? I wonder if Scott took some inspiration there.

Quote

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that anything that Wert edits is almost certainly not particularly relevant to the TUC story, as he was absurdly cautious to not spoil anything and would continue to do so. 

 

Correct. This is strictly stuff that is completely irrelevant to TUC. The extremely detailed glossary entry on the Inverse Fire, for example, is staying right in the book until it comes out

 

Quote

 

Odd question: why do people on Earwa call it the first apocalypse?

 

It's the narrator in the "What has gone before" and the glossaries who really calls it the First Apocalypse. I believe the Consult call it as such, because of course they believe they can unleash the second. The Mandate (and Akka) do as well, because of the Celmoman Prophecy that an Anausrimbor will return "at the end of the world". Akka also says several times that the Second Apocalypse has actually already begun, counting at least the Great Ordeal and maybe the Holy War as part of it (such as how Robert Jordan used to chide WoT fans complaining that the Last Battle hadn't started by pointing out that the Last Battle started on the first page of The Eye of the World, if not with Rand's birth).

[LuckyCharms]

This was basically motivated because I was getting so repeatedly annoyed by Kal complaining about how the Consult tekne-nuke was a dumb plan. So I pored over the text for some salient information about why they would've armed it at the base of the Viritic Well rather than deliver it by air, and I think I have something.

When Kellhus is taking all of the Believer-Kings on the Raft to reconnoiter Dagliash, there is a throwaway line where Kellhus says that the Viritic Well lies beneath Dagliash itself, but the entire Mansions lies beneath the Urokkas, riddling the entire mountain range, so that it is hollowed out like a rotted stump. Knowing that they can't deliver their payload by air—the only option is to have some Quya carry it or whatever, which leads to some clears problems: Human sorcerers sensing the Mark of enemy Quya, and obviously being limited by the Echo of the ground you can't really be stealthy. So the only option is to have it hidden somewhere.  What if the Consult anticipated that Kellhus would deploy the Schools across the Urokkas? What if the plan was to set off the nuke at the base of the Viritic Well, set off a chain reaction completely collapsing the entire Mansion, and also, most of the Urokkas. Schoolmen are physically limited by the Echo of the ground—and as we know from "The False Sun"—if the ground falls away you can't cast any Echo to regain your footing. If the entire Urokkas suddenly buckled or was collapsed completely, it would have thrown most of the Schoolmen from their footing, killing most of the Ordeal's sorcerous ordinance. No Schoolmen; mundane Ordeal is defeated quite easily by the Horde.