Jump to content

Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ


lokisnow

Recommended Posts

Quote

Q2. Why did all the Scranc die, but not all Ordealmen? Ideally, I’d like somebody to draw me a map of the battle, with a more precise location of the Urrokas, the main Horde, and the various Ordealmen. I’m not sure how these armies are distributed around the hills. How much is going on North and East of the mountains?

I wonder if sranc have some kind of vulnerability built into them? A high intolerance to radiation? Clear them out after their use had been served.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Well, this whole nuke business points out, to me, that narrative ambiguity is in this case unhelpful. Quite unhelpful. Credibility is stretched here until the sense of this nuke-idea becomes incomprehensible

Just wait for the whale nukers in TUC! OMG, I spoiled it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They're not a great way to kill everything, but they're a fine way to tactically reduce an important resource. And using a nuke to, say, destroy the Mandate would be pretty awesome; having no one know of the Gnosis would be pretty useful. If the nuke was only revived later, having the nuke wipe out all of the Swayali or Mandate or simply the Umbilicus would be pretty useful too. Heck, the nonmen meet with Kellhus, right? Have them bring the nuke right then and there. Sacrifice everything, present it as a 'gift', and boom goes the dynamite. That's not that long before Dagliash, no?

 

Sure, but you have to do a cost-benefit analysis.  If they only had, say 3, you hit the three biggest Mansions, then you are back to square one, although certainly facing a reduced force.  For all we know they did use them before, so perhaps they hit some major target, like some crazy powerful sorcerer of old?  Must have been something...

But I do think they realize you can't come direct at Kellhus.  Even if they walked right up to him with it, I'm sure his wards would protect him long enough for him to teleport away.  They tried to surprise him, in the antiquated away they know how.  Of course it failed though, because Kellhus is no Titirga, he is far, far worse for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, .H. said:

Sure, but you have to do a cost-benefit analysis.  If they only had, say 3, you hit the three biggest Mansions, then you are back to square one, although certainly facing a reduced force.  For all we know they did use them before, so perhaps they hit some major target, like some crazy powerful sorcerer of old?  Must have been something...

Like I said before, we know they DID use them before. We don't know how many and we don't know how often, but they were used in the past. And we don't know precisely how, either. It doesn't sound like they were ever used in the fights at Golgotterath, and they weren't used in any of the major fights, but beyond that? Unclear.

Just now, .H. said:

But I do think they realize you can't come direct at Kellhus.  Even if they walked right up to him with it, I'm sure his wards would protect him long enough for him to teleport away.  They tried to surprise him, in the antiquated away they know how.  Of course it failed though, because Kellhus is no Titirga, he is far, far worse for them.

This, of course, assumes that the trap was for Kellhus and not for the troops, or the sorcerers, or whatever. Or even because they had to do it because they needed Scalded later on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, .H. said:

Sure, but you have to do a cost-benefit analysis.  If they only had, say 3, you hit the three biggest Mansions, then you are back to square one, although certainly facing a reduced force.  For all we know they did use them before, so perhaps they hit some major target, like some crazy powerful sorcerer of old?  Must have been something...

But I do think they realize you can't come direct at Kellhus.  Even if they walked right up to him with it, I'm sure his wards would protect him long enough for him to teleport away.  They tried to surprise him, in the antiquated away they know how.  Of course it failed though, because Kellhus is no Titirga, he is far, far worse for them.

This disastrous planning by the Inchoroi, who have had millenia of experience, is a troublesome point for me as well. Unless they were just using the Sranc horde and the nuke to poke at the Ordeal and Kellhus a bit, to test the waters. And they are actually playing their cards close to their chest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Like I said before, we know they DID use them before. We don't know how many and we don't know how often, but they were used in the past. And we don't know precisely how, either. It doesn't sound like they were ever used in the fights at Golgotterath, and they weren't used in any of the major fights, but beyond that? Unclear.

Right, I phrased it poorly, but I meant we did know they used them and I guess I am willing to give them the benefit for the doubt that they must have hit something important.  However, their seldom use points to them being very rare, so I don't think all-out nuclear war was a real available option.

9 minutes ago, Damelon said:

This disastrous planning by the Inchoroi, who have had millenia of experience, is a troublesome point for me as well. Unless they were just using the Sranc horde and the nuke to poke at the Ordeal and Kellhus a bit, to test the waters. And they are actually playing their cards close to their chest.

I think something like that is very probable.  Like I said, I liken it to a test of Kellhus to see if here really was more than Titirga.  We know he is, but they didn't necessarily, besides circumstantial evidence.  Now they know.  Plus, any collateral damage is just gravy.  Sranc lives no not matter.  Crunch all you want, no doubt the bowels of Golgotterath are full of more.  Plus, with the Horde gone, the Ordeal is set to start cannibalizing itself.  A scorched earth tactic as the Ordeal crosses literal scorched earth.

The Consult have a millennia of dealing with their strict inferiors.  Kellhus is well beyond anything they ever faced, ancient or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, .H. said:

Right, I phrased it poorly, but I meant we did know they used them and I guess I am willing to give them the benefit for the doubt that they must have hit something important.  However, their seldom use points to them being very rare, so I don't think all-out nuclear war was a real available option.

I think something like that is very probable.  Like I said, I liken it to a test of Kellhus to see if here really was more than Titirga.  We know he is, but they didn't necessarily, besides circumstantial evidence.  Now they know.  Plus, any collateral damage is just gravy.  Sranc lives no not matter.  Crunch all you want, no doubt the bowels of Golgotterath are full of more.  Plus, with the Horde gone, the Ordeal is set to start cannibalizing itself.  A scorched earth tactic as the Ordeal crosses literal scorched earth.

The Consult have a millennia of dealing with their strict inferiors.  Kellhus is well beyond anything they ever faced, ancient or not.

And yet, and yet. If you want to buildup Kellhus as a worthy foe, you need the Consult to pull off some really successful stuff as well, beyond killing Xerius. So Kellhus really needs to work and stretch himself. No?

This is why I had trouble with the Momemn climax. Gods plotting against Kellhus. No problem. Fanim, god-supported and Meppa-powered. No problem. White-luck warrior. No problem.

The writing and scenes were powerful, but looking back on it, it's no wonder that Kellhus own POV is not used, the reader is in awe alongside the characters affected by K. Yet, narrative tension is created by having the protagonist, Kellhus in this case, having trouble with overcoming obstacles.

So I really hope that the Consult *will* form a serious obstacle for Kellhus. Something he cannot so easily overcome by teleporting himself into the arena and pulling out all his sorcerous tricks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It feels like, fundamentally, questioning how the Consult uses its nuke is quibbling.  Like, they put it at a fortress they were expecting the good guys to be at.  Feels pretty good.  They were wrong.  Womp womp.

I mean, ultimately, the Consult leadership is one dude whose mind is held in ten senile old fucks, 2 rape demons and an Erratic, right?  So even managing to remember that they HAD a nuke feels pretty aces.

This is, after all, the posse who in the first books decided that the way to go about stuff was to seduce information out of Kellhus.  We aren't exactly dealing with a brain trust here.  They prevail because, up till the present, stuff was weighted in their favor.  I don't model them as particularly shrewd when placed in unfamiliar situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, WalterX said:

It feels like, fundamentally, questioning how the Consult uses its nuke is quibbling.  Like, they put it at a fortress they were expecting the good guys to be at.  Feels pretty good.  They were wrong.  Womp womp.

I mean, ultimately, the Consult leadership is one dude whose mind is held in ten senile old fucks, 2 rape demons and an Erratic, right?  So even managing to remember that they HAD a nuke feels pretty aces.

This is, after all, the posse who in the first books decided that the way to go about stuff was to seduce information out of Kellhus.  We aren't exactly dealing with a brain trust here.  They prevail because, up till the present, stuff was weighted in their favor.  I don't model them as particularly shrewd when placed in unfamiliar situations.

You have a point. The wars against the Nonmen, the First Apocalypse, they played quite the formidable foes there. Failing, true, but bringing along major carnage and obstruction. They have been lying in wait for a long time since then. If this is all they can muster. Hmm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Damelon said:

You have a point. The wars against the Nonmen, the First Apocalypse, they played quite the formidable foes there. Failing, true, but bringing along major carnage and obstruction. They have been lying in wait for a long time since then. If this is all they can muster. Hmm.

Yeah, you would think that a 3-mile ship armed with nukes and lasers and the ability to graft flesh into biological weapons of destruction would not have had such a hard time against a bunch of elves and shit. That they did have that hard time - and only really had their best chance of success when a really smart dude came and joined them - points to the Inchoroi themselves not being the most awesome thinkers. 

Huh. Thinking on it, the Inchoroi only really had success when helped, period.

  • They got utterly crushed by the Nonmen the first time, despite their lasers, and only survived at the whim of the Nonmen because the nonmen got lazy
  • They then got some aporetics - provided by the nonmen - but got their ass kicked even more.
  • They then said 'fuck it, let's heal 'em' - an idea given to them by a nonman - and that almost worked until they fucked that up.
  • They produced a bunch of weapon races and that kind of worked, but they still lost and then were trapped in their home. Their weapon races, to their credit, continued to multiply and do well on their own, so that's nice - though those weapon races were ALSO based on the nonmen
  • They then were freed by the help of a nonman and a man
  • They then were able to create the No-God with the help of Men, and almost succeeded - though, ironically they lost due to the fact that their old weapon was used against them.

Maybe it's the case that the Inchoroi aren't the scary thing here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Maybe it's the case that the Inchoroi aren't the scary thing here. 

Agreed.  They've always struck me as kind of bumbling and borderline-incompetent.  And Mekeretrig is bonkers.  It really seems like Shaeonanra is/was the brains of the operation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, you would think that a 3-mile ship armed with nukes and lasers and the ability to graft flesh into biological weapons of destruction would not have had such a hard time against a bunch of elves and shit. That they did have that hard time - and only really had their best chance of success when a really smart dude came and joined them - points to the Inchoroi themselves not being the most awesome thinkers. 

Huh. Thinking on it, the Inchoroi only really had success when helped, period.

  • They got utterly crushed by the Nonmen the first time, despite their lasers, and only survived at the whim of the Nonmen because the nonmen got lazy
  • They then got some aporetics - provided by the nonmen - but got their ass kicked even more.
  • They then said 'fuck it, let's heal 'em' - an idea given to them by a nonman - and that almost worked until they fucked that up.
  • They produced a bunch of weapon races and that kind of worked, but they still lost and then were trapped in their home. Their weapon races, to their credit, continued to multiply and do well on their own, so that's nice - though those weapon races were ALSO based on the nonmen
  • They then were freed by the help of a nonman and a man
  • They then were able to create the No-God with the help of Men, and almost succeeded - though, ironically they lost due to the fact that their old weapon was used against them.

Maybe it's the case that the Inchoroi aren't the scary thing here. 

 

Just now, profgrape said:

Agreed.  They've always struck me as kind of bumbling and borderline-incompetent.  And Mekeretrig is bonkers.  It really seems like Shaeonanra is/was the brains of the operation.

And this is where my worries lie. I love a lot about Bakker's creation, but these issues confound me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Damelon said:

 

And this is where my worries lie. I love a lot about Bakker's creation, but these issues confound me.

I dunno. The aliens being fairly unclever but super powerful and (more interestingly) super zealous religious radicals is kind of interesting to me. It's not that threatening exactly, but it's an interesting inversion of typical aliens, who are usually super-rational and above it all.

Though I suppose it's very rational to take the tack that anything is worth doing as long as it ensures that no one else burns in torment for ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's mentioned that the Inchoroi moved from world to world, like locusts, until they finally reached this planet where they thought could save themselves from damnation, but they arrived exhausted. I think the Inchoroi were gradually weakened by the wars they fought on other planets, and their ship crashed, so what faced against the Nonmen was a much diminished force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

It's mentioned that the Inchoroi moved from world to world, like locusts, until they finally reached this planet where they thought could save themselves from damnation, but they arrived exhausted. I think the Inchoroi were gradually weakened by the wars they fought on other planets, and their ship crashed, so what faced against the Nonmen was a much diminished force.

Yep, i always thought they was a desperate race at the end of their rope. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...