A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.

[Macgregor of the North]

@cgrav

After some thought on what you said on my last thread here:

"My notion is that the Weirnet and some other physical spots (under the sea, in the flames) are doors to a realm of non-linear time and action. That means being drowned or communing with the sea like Damphair is equivalent to going into the Weirwood."

I have decided to take a step back and look at "time" on the grand scale in ASOIAF, and try my hand at some clarity on the whole Stable/Closed time loop angle where everything is set in stone and things that have happened a certain way have always happened that way and what caused them always was what caused them, with nothing changing, only the cause becoming clear to us as we read the story.

@ravenous reader & @Darry Man

You guys had some good input on that last thread too so please feel free to join us here if you like. 

Ok. You mention "in the flames, and under the sea" as doors to a realm of non linear time and action. That's a great way to put it and something I'm on board with completely. While thinking on this I'd like to offer Dreams too. 

So we have these mediums where an actual "time" that we would class as "the future" or "the past" can be accessed. While some of it is tricky to understand and can come across as symbolic it is still accessing a "time" where information is available due to events having "happened". 

Under the Sea: Patchface with his symbolic knowledge of the future. 

The flames: Those such as Melisandre and Moqorro can access this "time" in the flames. It is sometimes very clear in that real people are seen, but also can be symbolic and tricky too. 

Dreams: Targaryens and people with Greendreams can access this "time" and as above, it can be very very clear with specific people and actions, but can also be symbolic and very tricky to read. 

The Weirwood tree network, and for levelled-up Greenseers, "seeing beyond the trees": It is said the Greenseers could "delve into the past and see far into the future". We have yet to see the Weirwood tree network take Bran to a time he and us would class as "the future", but the Weirwood tree network is one of these gateways that can most certainly provide access to "the past". 

What I think is happening in ASOIAF is that whenever one of these mediums, doors, portals, gateways or whatever you prefer is at play, "time" can be accessed and the concept of "past present and future" is left behind and we are operating outside the strictures of "time". 

In this fashion, I believe that events happening in what we the readers would class as, let's say "the future", can actually have an effect on and be the cause of an action or event in what we would class as a "time" such as the "past" or the "present". 

I think we have examples we can share if you fancy it. I believe I showed Bran caused Neds reaction both times in "the past" in my last thread, but we can leave that there. I'll start with a couple. 

Dreams are the medium, or doorway here. 

Daenys the Dreamer actually sees the destruction of Valyria by fire twelve years before it "happened", and it did happen, so due to this, her father sold all his holdings in Valyria and moved his family to Dragonstone. Her father Aenar had kept this secret and let the other Dragonlords think the Targaryens had moved out of cowardice and surrender because they were a lesser branch of Dragonlords who could not match their power. 

Anyway, through the magical medium of Dreams, a glimpse of "the future" is shown and acted on. The "future" effected Aenars decision in "the present" and this is the reason we have Targaryens in our story now. 

Next. Jojen accesses "the future" through the Greendream doorway. He sees the Ironborn taking Winterfell and killing certain people such as Alebelly. Even though this is not as clear as Daenys' dream because it is symbolic with the Ironborn manifesting as the salty water and waves and them killing Alebelly as him drowning, it is still a glimpse of "the future" through the doorway and it too has an effect on events in what we class as the  "present time". 
Alebelly, upon hearing this tale decides not to wash for days for fear of drowning that he stinks so bad he has to be physically scrubbed by people at Winterfell lol. The cause of this was Jojens glimpse of "the future" through the dream portal, and then became set in stone as always being the cause of why Alebelly never washed for days. 

Cause and effect. It seems to me that when these mediums or portals are at play and non linear time and actions are being accessed through them, there can be cause and effect and this becomes set in stone as always being the cause of an event, even though the cause and effect happened at what we would class as different points in "time". 

Do my latest thoughts hold any water or have I reached to far and my moment of clarity was just as foggy as one of Jojens dreams. 

[cgrav]

@Macgregor of the North I like it! 

Delving into the future opens up an interesting inquiry: is there a difference between the present listening to the future and the future speaking to the past? It's a matter of perspective, I suppose, but I think it shows that we've been stuck in the linear paradigm even as we discuss non-linear concepts. We don't question that sometimes people glimpse the future, but are very skeptical about the future/present  reaching into the past. I would ask, what's the difference?

If the future can't talk to the past, then what is prophecy? Once we step outside of time as a one-way street, I think we have to accept the symmetry and indistinction between past, present, and future, as well as cause and effect.

[Renly's Banana]

Interesting stuff, but I don't know if I can get behind the underwater aspect of it. Nobody within the Drowned religion has any real prophetic or meaningful visions, they're all religious nuts. Patchface is the only example, and I honestly think he's just GRRM's way of having fun with the reader. His ramblings seem to be there for people like us, the readers that will pick apart every word and theorize until kingdom come. His "prophecies" are so crazy and out there that they could be interpreted multiple different ways, or no way at all, and it'd be the same. I don't think there's anything too deep to Patchface, just a fun, weird character GRRM likes to play with. But that's just me.

I'm a heavy proponent of the theory that most "prophetic magic" in this world is derived from hereditary genes. This is all the Targaryens, who at random seem to unwittingly tap this power. Daeron the Drunk was a good example; a random drunk who seemed to almost resent having this power and tried to hide it with booze. Meaning it's not something you study or learn or seek out, it's just a genetic trait you get stuck with.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The Weirwood tree network, and for levelled-up Greenseers, "seeing beyond the trees": It is said the Greenseers could "delve into the past and see far into the future". We have yet to see the Weirwood tree network take Bran to a time he and us would class as "the future", but the Weirwood tree network is one of these gateways that can most certainly provide access to "the past". 

Macgregor you're like a dog with a bone!   

It's true we haven't seen future greenseeing 'classic' yet.  However, strangely enough, we've already seen Bran 'access' the future in the so-called 'coma dream', even before he officially became 'wedded' to the trees.  A paradox.  

In effect, he's already 'seen beyond the trees'.  What else do you call the high-speed flight well above the trees, where you go north and north and north, beyond the Wall, beyond the furthest extent of the trees, into the icy, treeless wasteland, north and north and north --

...until you get to the northern lights (the dawn lights or aurora borealis), 'the curtain of light' at the end of the world at the north pole; then breaking through that 'curtain,' which is tantamount to breaking through the limits of the planet's atmosphere.  

Peeking through this veil I believe constituted both a spaceflight and a glimpse into the future.  Bran was then made privy to this 'terrible knowledge' of some impending doom, waiting up ahead, whereupon he was warned by the three-eyed crow to make a choice 'Now you know why you must live.  Fly or die', based on that knowledge.  Bran then decided to wake up and re-enter the fray.  However, it seems he might have forgotten and/or blocked out what he saw 'up there'-- which isn't really 'up' at all...

Quote

What I think is happening in ASOIAF is that whenever one of these mediums, doors, portals, gateways or whatever you prefer is at play, "time" can be accessed and the concept of "past present and future" is left behind and we are operating outside the strictures of "time". 

But is that relation 'virtual' or 'actual'?  For example, if I read a poem by John Keats who died of tuberculosis a long time ago, his words 'live again' to a certain extent in my head and we can say that 'dead men [do indeed] sing songs,' the magic provided by the word allowing us to 'operate outside the strictures of time' and transcend or at least compensate for death.  However, were I to declare to you that I were actually communing with John (Keats), having paid a visit to him before he died, you might look at me a bit more skeptically.  I'm not sure you've clearly separated out 'reading' a memory or a prophecy vs. actually 'travelling' to another time, as it were.

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In this fashion, I believe that events happening in what we the readers would class as, let's say "the future", can actually have an effect on and be the cause of an action or event in what we would class as a "time" such as the "past" or the "present". 

Sure, there are a lot of examples of the 'vicious cycle' or 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.  Cersei is a prime example.  The most striking consequence of Maggy's prophecy was that it triggered Cersei to become a child murderer on the very same night.  Through her interpretation of the 'valonqar prophecy,' she's actively bringing it down upon herself, 'creating' the valonqar via her own actions.  She's the prime agent of her self-destruction.  Where does that leave free will?

7 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Delving into the future opens up an interest inquiry: is there a difference between seeing into the future and the future speaking to the past? It's a matter of perspective, I suppose, but I think it shows that we've been stuck in the linear paradigm even as we discuss non-linear concepts. We don't question that sometimes people glimpse the future, but are very skeptical about the future/present  reaching into the past. I would ask, what's the difference?

If the future can't talk to the past, then what is prophecy? Once we step outside of time as a one-way street, I think we have to accept the symmetry and indistinction between past, present, and future, as well as cause and effect.

Very well put, cgrav!  The past reaching to the future we call 'foreshadowing', which might more accurately be termed 'retroshadowing,' the future reaching to the past, which constitutes a memory of the future, an after-impression presenting before it's occurred.  It's impossible to discuss these concepts without entering the realm of paradox.

[cgrav]

@Renly's Banana

there is a matter of process involved. The characters who actually have these abilities have passed through nearby death. Drowning, burning, freezing... all death rites that purchase access to this great beyond. It's only a special few characters who can figuratively steal fire from the gods without getting burned (most prominently Dany, so far). 

[Renly's Banana]

5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

@Renly's Banana

there is a matter of process involved. The characters who actually have these abilities have passed through nearby death. Drowning, burning, freezing... all death rites that purchase access to this great beyond. It's only a special few characters who can figuratively steal fire from the gods without getting burned (most prominently Dany, so far). 

But Dany doesn't have any prophetic visions of her own. Every prophecy she's been exposed to is external. The most she has are some weird dreams, but these are hardly prophecy. Other characters in our story have weird, vivid dreams all the time too. That's not magic. 

I also don't know what near-death experiences people like Daeron or Daemon or Daenys would have had.

[cgrav]

30 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

But Dany doesn't have any prophetic visions of her own. Every prophecy she's been exposed to is external. The most she has are some weird dreams, but these are hardly prophecy. Other characters in our story have weird, vivid dreams all the time too. That's not magic. 

I also don't know what near-death experiences people like Daeron or Daemon or Daenys would have had.

I think you're drawing these boxes too small. The journey through non-mortal realms is a classic Hero theme going back to Greek myth, and most of the main characters in ASOIF who occupy the Hero archetype have died symbolically if not literally. They possess (or are possessed by) some form magic, whether it's prophecy, greensight, warging, or dragon riding. Davos appears to be the only one so far who visits the underworld and comes back with nothing special. 

And the hypothesis here is that the ASOIF version of the underworld is timeless, so it's possible for the future to give information to the past. Ned has no prophetic abilities, but still heard a whisper from the future. Such could easily apply to the historical characters you mention. In those cases, though, I don't think we need to find highly specific explanations, as their purpose is only to establish the legitimacy of prophecy for the reader.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

@Macgregor of the North I like it! 

Delving into the future opens up an interesting inquiry: is there a difference between the present listening to the future and the future speaking to the past? It's a matter of perspective, I suppose, but I think it shows that we've been stuck in the linear paradigm even as we discuss non-linear concepts. We don't question that sometimes people glimpse the future, but are very skeptical about the future/present  reaching into the past. I would ask, what's the difference?

If the future can't talk to the past, then what is prophecy? Once we step outside of time as a one-way street, I think we have to accept the symmetry and indistinction between past, present, and future, as well as cause and effect.

I view it as a matter of perspective also. After all, isn't it just information passed from one point in "time" to the next point in "time" and processed at one point and then a reaction is caused. We view Bran causing Ned to ask who's there when he whispers Winterfell as an action from the present effecting the past because we are stuck in an eternal present reading the books, but from Neds angle, it would be viewed as information (Brans whisper) materialising as an action (the windy whispers and rustling leaves) from the future to prompt a reaction in Neds "present", like glimpses of the future prompting reactions  in the "present" exactly like how see often in the books. Perspective indeed.

If we add in the idea that "time" is kind of viewed as all one and the same, like the Weirwood trees see it, then past present and future are just words are they not?. If these portals are what we say they are then the cause and effect is all legit and can be set in stone as the reason for an action if I'm not mistaken?. 

I will remind the thread here, I'm no master on this. I'm looking for you guys to help flesh this idea out with me just as much as I'm trying to get you on board with the actual idea. 

[Renly's Banana]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I think you're drawing these boxes too small. The journey through non-mortal realms is a classic Hero theme going back to Greek myth, and most of the main characters in ASOIF who occupy the Hero archetype have died symbolically if not literally. They possess (or are possessed by) some form magic, whether it's prophecy, greensight, warging, or dragon riding. Davos appears to be the only one so far who visits the underworld and comes back with nothing special. 

And the hypothesis here is that the ASOIF version of the underworld is timeless, so it's possible for the future to give information to the past. Ned has no prophetic abilities, but still heard a whisper from the future. Such could easily apply to the historical characters you mention. In those cases, though, I don't think we need to find highly specific explanations, as their purpose is only to establish the legitimacy of prophecy for the reader.

I can't think of a single POV/protagonist in our story (other than Melisandre*) who has actual prophetic visions. Not even Dany. Again, internally, not externally. Quaithe and Bloodraven and Shade of the Evening do not count as they're all external influences. The whole "coming close to death triggers powers" thing has a lot of holes in it. What constitutes as coming close to death? Dany stepping into the fire? Davos almost drowning? Tyrion's wound in the Blackwater? Jaime losing his hand? None of these characters gain any sort of prophetic visions or new skills after "dying." I also would not count riding a dragon as some sort of magical ability you gain after dying; there were countless dragonriders in the past, none of whom were very much special in any way. 
Now, I'm not saying magic or visions do not exist in their world. On the contrary, I do think it's there and isn't futuristic technology or telepathy or whatever some people say to try and debunk magic. Bran DOES have magical abilities that are internal and innate to himself, but it has nothing to do with seeing the future. At least not until he hooks up to the weirwoods. 

*As for Melisandre, the visions she sees could very well be external. She sees them only through fire, and these visions are being "sent" to her. At least that's what she claims. Whether or not these prophetic visions are innate to her or she's tapping some power she doesn't even understand is hard to say. 

[cgrav]

@Macgregor of the North I think we're on the same page, yes. For most characters, time is a buffet line that progresses from appetizer to dessert, while greenseer-type characters are like little kids who run up and take what they want in any order. 

And BR is pretty straightforward in explaining this to Bran, so I'm inclined to run with it so far as the evidence extends.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

A step back in time to an archived thread. It is interesting.

DwD was released July 2011. The archived thread Time Travel Party Foul started in December of that year. Short thread only three pages. Started Dec 2011. Died out Jan 2013.

Me personally, I think Martin is going to use Bran's greenseeing skills & the weirwoods as a device to reveal parts of the story.

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm looking for you guys to help flesh this idea out with me just as much as I'm trying to get you on board with the actual idea. 

Wanted to help out even though I am not on board.

[cgrav]

48 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I can't think of a single POV/protagonist in our story (other than Melisandre*) who has actual prophetic visions or any sort of "power." Not even Dany. Again, internally, not externally. Quaithe and Bloodraven and Shade of the Evening do not count as they're all external influences. The whole "coming close to death triggers powers" thing has a lot of holes in it. What constitutes as coming close to death? Dany stepping into the fire? Davos almost drowning? Tyrion's wound in the Blackwater? Jaime losing his hand? None of these characters gain any sort of prophetic visions or new skills after "dying." I also would not count riding a dragon as some sort of magical ability you gain after dying; there were countless dragonriders in the past, none of whom were very much special in any way. 
 

Yes - each of those is a symbolic passage through the barrier of death. Burning, drowning, being hung in a tree.. all typically fatal, but  for some characters it's not, and those characters are at the center of the prophecy that underlies the entire story.

This isn't mechanical, like some law of physics. It's only going to apply fully to the Hero archetype characters.

And as Mac said, we're discussing this idea to develop an explanation much more than present one. This is all highly ethereal and somewhat speculative, but it's the outgrowth of a lot of discussion regarding the symbolism and mythology that GRRM drew from and then sort invented for Planetos.

if you look into Norse mythology you'll see that there is the exact same concept of access to non-linear time. The world tree Yggdrasil extends between mortal and non-mortal realms, with the squirrel Ratatoskr running along it and bringing news to Odin. And Odin attained his godly abilities by plucking out his own eye and at another time by hanging himself for 9 days. This is why so many characters have one eye, and why I consider death the barrier between the realms. 

The idea certain seems far fetched without context, but it's actually a working solution (for now) that ties together the big mysteries concerning magic/prophecy and the vast mythology that's written into the story's background.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Interesting stuff, but I don't know if I can get behind the underwater aspect of it. Nobody within the Drowned religion has any real prophetic or meaningful visions, they're all religious nuts. Patchface is the only example, and I honestly think he's just GRRM's way of having fun with the reader. His ramblings seem to be there for people like us, the readers that will pick apart every word and theorize until kingdom come. His "prophecies" are so crazy and out there that they could be interpreted multiple different ways, or no way at all, and it'd be the same. I don't think there's anything too deep to Patchface, just a fun, weird character GRRM likes to play with. But that's just me.

I'm a heavy proponent of the theory that most "prophetic magic" in this world is derived from hereditary genes. This is all the Targaryens, who at random seem to unwittingly tap this power. Daeron the Drunk was a good example; a random drunk who seemed to almost resent having this power and tried to hide it with booze. Meaning it's not something you study or learn or seek out, it's just a genetic trait you get stuck with.

I do hear ya. I actually lean to the idea though that Patchface is a little more than a weirdo placed in for a giggle, that's just my opinion mind you. 

And in regards to the drowned god folllowers not having any prophetic visions, I'm not sure their ordeal that Damphair puts them through is anything near what patches himself went through if we take the word of Jommy of Storms End and those who found him and took him for a cold clammy corpse. 

Patchface seems to have certainly went through something serious and now I believe he has tapped into some sort of magic that has enabled him to glimpse the future but it is in a strange way that is not made crystal clear with everything he says, sort of akin to some of the Ghost of High Heart or Jojens dreams where it is kind of cryptic, but all the same it is a glimpse of "the future" he has had I believe. 

Even though some of his others are hard to pinpoint I'm sure we can agree he tells Davos of the red wedding don't you think?. 

"Fool’s blood, king’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye".

Back to what I said though, I hear where your coming from but I do think something happened to this man due to his exposure to the sea for two days and it changed him somewhat and he has been given a glimpse of a "time" that has happened in what we class as "the future".

If this was the red wedding he was blabbering about to Davos, then doesn't that mean that an event that happened from a point in time in "the future" has had an effect on "the present"?.

Isnt Davos stopping in his tracks and listening to patches recite his prophetic rambling, then smiling as he runs off with shireen an actual effect of a cause from "the future" if you get where I'm coming from. The exact way that little scene plays out is due to patches having had a glimpse of a time that has not happened yet, the future, and it has an effect on Davos right there in the present. 

This is the sort of idea I'm exploring, that these magical doors, portals gateways or mediums that allow access to another point in "time", can actually have effects on what we would class as a different point in "time". This is not exactly like Bran causing Ned to ask who's there in that sense of completely direct cause and effect but I think it's still cause and effect. 

If patches hadn't had some sort of a glimpse of the future red wedding, then he wouldn't have recited his verses to Davos at that exact point in time, but he did, and Davos stopped to listen at that exact point, and that was always the reason. Whichever angle I look at it from, a glimpse of "the future" played some part there in "the present". 

[Macgregor of the North]

 

@ravenous reader

Quote

Macgregor you're like a dog with a bone!   

It's true we haven't seen future greenseeing 'classic' yet.  However, strangely enough, we've already seen Bran 'access' the future in the so-called 'coma dream', even before he officially became 'wedded' to the trees.  A paradox.  

In effect, he's already 'seen beyond the trees'.  What else do you call the high-speed flight well above the trees, where you go north and north and north, beyond the Wall, beyond the furthest extent of the trees, into the icy, treeless wasteland, north and north and north --

...until you get to the northern lights (the dawn lights or aurora borealis), 'the curtain of light' at the end of the world at the north pole; then breaking through that 'curtain,' which is tantamount to breaking through the limits of the planet's atmosphere.  

Peeking through this veil I believe constituted both a spaceflight and a glimpse into the future.  Bran was then made privy to this 'terrible knowledge' of some impending doom, waiting up ahead, whereupon he was warned by the three-eyed crow to make a choice 'Now you know why you must live.  Fly or die', based on that knowledge.  Bran then decided to wake up and re-enter the fray.  However, it seems he might have forgotten and/or blocked out what he saw 'up there'-- which isn't really 'up' at all...

Yes I am I suppose. Can't let this topic go, especially when I feel like I'm making small progress with it. 

You are correct of course. In this instance Bran taps in to non linear "time" through the dream portal or medium (or whatever). It's true, in that "time" such as the "present", his body had not ingested the Weirwood blood paste and wed him to the trees. 

So it's the dream. Bloodraven says to Bran he could not come to him but in dreams. By the way, after a massive previous thread in which we analysed every angle including YouTube interviews with Ran, and we even had Ran come on the thread, I kept my original beliefs that Bloodraven is indeed the 3EC. Others still don't think he is but hey ho. 

I think BR/the 3EC played a part in Bran accessing "time" in his coma dream, but like you say, he has never brought it up and has let his mind push that memory somewhere he cannot recall it for now, much like the dream where he talks to Neds shade in the crypt and Ned is sad and it's something to do with Jon. I think it's because he wished he could have explained who Jon's biological parents were and Ned perhaps spoke of that topic.

Same idea though. Bran seems to have frustratingly forgotten those dreams for now in any case. 

On dreams. It's said Dreams can be "sent", using a glass candle is apparently a way to do this. Do you think perhaps dreams can be sent from one person to another from say a time such as "the future" to "the past". If dreams are one of the portals or doorways or whatever where non linear time and action is accessible then could it be possible?. 

This could possibly explain Prophecy in some instances?. Glass candles, The Weirwood trees and Greenseer magic, these things are associated with dreams being "sent". I wonder if it's possible Dreams are sent from such times as "the future" to the "past"?. 

I'll reply to the other part in the morning. 

[cgrav]

General statement on the topic: I think it is worth debating whether the ability to give prophecy comes from within or without, but ultimately we still have to ask where the prophetic information comes from.

If our answer is "the future" or "the underworld", then the prophet is simply the gate through which the information passes. And in the case of Mel, the red door that allows terrible shadows to return to the realm of the living.

As an aside, I saw interesting intersection of myths today. The myth of Orpheus, who sought to bring his dead wife back from Hades, ends with Orpheus being struck down by Zeus's lightning so he can't tell the living world the secrets of the dead. Not dissimilar to the idea of an undead greenseer goading lightning from the gods. In both cases, wrathful gods attempting to bar the gate that hold the dead back, though in the case of the Grey King, failing.

[Renly's Banana]

@Macgregor of the North
I still mostly lean towards Patchface not being truly magical and being more of a running gag/easter egg-type trope. But.. I don't really have any way to prove or disprove this, so it COULD be possible that he is indeed glimpsing the future. Anything is possible here, I guess. 

We know certain lineages and bloodlines are naturally gifted with sight-seeing, like the Targs, but maybe it is possible for certain individuals to unlock this ability through trauma. Though the only other person I can think of who may fit that bill is the Ghost of High Heart. She says she "dreams" of these things, so she's most likely tied to Jojen in that they have ties to the Children and the weirwoods, but who knows. Maybe she was hit over the head with a club when she was a child or almost drowned in a pond. 
Or maybe Patchface has some distant Valyrian blood in him? I dunno, I think the whole magical mythos in this story is very grounded in a set of rules and precedents, so I'm always trying to make sense of it logically. =/

[JNR]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I believe I showed Bran caused Neds reaction both times in "the past" in my last thread

Just out of curiosity -- what mouth, lips, tongue, etc., was it that made the sounds that Ned ostensibly heard? 

The weirwood face's, or... ?

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Just out of curiosity -- what mouth, lips, tongue, etc., was it that made the sounds that Ned ostensibly heard? 

The weirwood face's, or... ?

I think the author himself spells it out clear enough here:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

Quote

But is that relation 'virtual' or 'actual'?  For example, if I read a poem by John Keats who died of tuberculosis a long time ago, his words 'live again' to a certain extent in my head and we can say that 'dead men [do indeed] sing songs,' the magic provided by the word allowing us to 'operate outside the strictures of time' and transcend or at least compensate for death.  However, were I to declare to you that I were actually communing with John (Keats), having paid a visit to him before he died, you might look at me a bit more skeptically.  I'm not sure you've clearly separated out 'reading' a memory or a prophecy vs. actually 'travelling' to another time, as it were.

I think that in the case of reading something, like the scrolls that Rhaegar and other Targaryens have read that prophesies the return of the warrior of fire, the PTWP. That is obviously not time travelling  but if we take it to be literally true in that someone actually glimpsed the "future" and saw that a warrior of fire would return under a bleeding star, then that could still class as an instance of cause and effect operating outside the strictures of "time" wound it not?

We do know the bleeding star/Comet has heralded potentially the rebirth of not just one but possibly multiple fire heroes hasn't it?. And we also know that the future can most certainly be glimpsed by beings in the story. So, if the "future" (a "time" set in stone that technically hasn't happened yet) can guide a prophet to write down words on a scroll 5000 years ago (or whatever) then isn't that an instance of cause and effect from different points in "time". Also, Rhaegar drastically changes his views and his whole life goes on a certain path because of these scrolls and the Prophecy, so isn't this more of the same? Cause and effect outside the strictures of time?. 

Its not the same as Bran using the Weirwood gateway to find his consciousness actually at that "moment in time" ("the past") like i theorised, but it's the same principle I think and this is fundamentally what I'm trying to prove here, that if we step back and look at "time" on the grand scale here and apply the various mediums or portals for information or even consciousness to "travel through", then I believe it's possible that there can be cause and effect over points in time such as "the past present and future" and these actions become set in stone as the reason for reactions, and always have been and always will be. 

When you mention Maggy, that's a great scene isn't it. All she has to do is taste a drop of blood and it's like she becomes the medium to actual see into the "future" there. Cersei cant help herself and has to push it all the way.

"Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come."

So isn't that what I'm trying to show here? That the medium is shown a "time" where things are and always were, and they effect the time we class as the present and become the reason they always did. Like Cersei asking how many children they will have and becoming confused at the strange answer, isn't that confused reaction in the "present" an effect of a glimpse/action of the "future"?. Sort of like Neds confused long frown at the tree in a sense maybe?. 

Where does all that leave free will you ask?. Well Cersei could have chosen to blank the memory out and could brush it off as nonsense I suppose. It does seem to rule her thoughts though and continue to play out as cause and effect operating outside the strictures of "time" as we read the story. 

Ned seems to have simply carried on with life perhaps thinking that the Old Gods he prays to may have been rustling at him as they say, but he will never know. It hasnt ruled his life like Cerseis ordeal, but it still caused his actions I believe. 

 

[ravenous reader]

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A step back in time to an archived thread. It is interesting.

DwD was released July 2011. The archived thread Time Travel Party Foul started in December of that year. Short thread only three pages. Started Dec 2011. Died out Jan 2013.

Me personally, I think Martin is going to use Bran's greenseeing skills & the weirwoods as a device to reveal parts of the story.

An interesting entry from that thread you referenced, by @Lord Martin Stark:

Quote

I thought bout this when Coldhands told Bran he was his monster. made me think that bran had told coldhands in the past to do something from a wierwood that made him they way he is now

 

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I wonder if it's possible Dreams are sent from such times as "the future" to the "past"?. 

Although the jury is still out on Jon's 'weirwood sapling' dream, it's possible that dream was sent from the future.  One can make a case for Bran having sent that dream from the future (ADWD) to both Bran in the crypt (ACOK) and Jon in the Skirling Pass (ACOK).  Bran in the crypt even says perhaps he 'dreamed ...touching Ghost and talking to Jon.'  Some reasons to consider that might make one suspect this dream is sent from the future and not taking place in 'real time':

• Firstly, let's establish that there is sufficient textual evidence to suggest that everything leading up to the paragraph beginning 'And suddenly [he was back in the mountains, etc.]...' is a dream taking place in the alternate, timeless dimension; it's not a straightforward 'wolf skinchanging reconaissance'  as represented by the second half of the dream (i.e. following 'And suddenly...).  Certain details in the dream just don't add up with conditions on the ground.  Notably, the light conditions which in reality are sunny, bright and clear, are suddenly described as 'darkening', which is not possible since when Jon wakes up it's still light out.  Next, the vegetation in the dream doesn't make sense, given that GRRM takes pains to emphasise Jon is above the treeline in the Skirling Pass, so a lone weirwood sapling, let alone a dense forest in which Ghost finds himself is unlikely.  Dorian has suggested Ghost surveys a forest from a cliff; however, that also fails scrutiny, since Ghost is overlooking the Milkwater Glacier, not a forest at that point.  Finally, there's Ghost's howl which for a mute wolf should be infeasible in the physical realm, given everything we know about him.  
• The weirwood sapling avatar -- at that point Bran was not yet wedded to the tree; that only happened in ADWD after meeting Bloodraven in person, so why should he appear as a weirwood at this point unless it's a future 'message'
• Related to the weirwood, the sapling grows in fast-forward in front of Jon/Ghost's eyes -- I interpret this as GRRM 'marking' out time for us in order to indicate to the reader that there is an element of 'time high jinks' going on between present (ACOK) and future (ADWD); thus the sapling rapidly 'grows up' to indicate the overlapping of time frames in a present to future direction (just as the trees did 'dying in reverse' in Bran's first greenseeing trip to indicate a present to past direction)
• The fact that the Wall should act as a ward preventing the two direwolves from communicating with each other and establishing a dream connection at all -- GRRM repeatedly makes a big deal of emphasizing how the wolves, particularly Summer and Ghost can not sense each other when they are on opposite sides of the Wall.  At the point when Jon has the dream in the Skirling Pass, Ghost is north of the Wall and Summer in all likelihood is at Winterfell with Bran hiding out in the crypts (or at the very least they have not yet traversed the Wall), so they really shouldn't be sensing each other.  As Ghost notes in the dream, he's lost the scent of his siblings -- I'm interpreting that to mean it's because he's north of the Wall.  However, given that a connection is subsequently made, despite the barrier presented by the Wall, perhaps this is because Bran is operating from a future point when he and Summer are both north of the Wall in ADWD, say-- i.e. on the same side of the Wall as Jon in ACOK
• Bran's words to Jon not to fear the dark seem to echo Bloodraven's words in ADWD -- in ACOK Bran had not yet quite conquered his dislike of the dark, nor absorbed his mentor's particular teachings
• The chronology of 'third-eye' opening --  In order to reach Jon, Bran must use Ghost like a weirwood conduit, so first Ghost's third eye must be opened before he can establish the connection.  There is an additional complication, which relies on symbolic evidence, so it may not be everyone's cup of tea; however, I find it compelling.  Because it's emphasized in AGOT that the direwolf Ghost was more mature than his siblings, having opened his eyes before them, while they were still blind in comparison --  I've extrapolated that Ghost is not only the special alpha, the leader of the direwolf pack, but was actually the first to open his third eye, even before Summer/Bran!  Assuming that Bran was indeed the one responsible for opening his brother's third eye, as related by both Jon and Bran's dream accounts -- Ghost's third eye could only have been opened from a point in the future, since Ghost's eye had to be opened first, which means at the point Ghost's third eye was opened, Bran's third eye had not yet opened in real time! So, this is my speculative account of the sequence of events:  Ghost opens Summer's eye -- that's why Bran recalls touching Ghost.  it was actually Ghost touching Bran, opening up the conversation, not the other way around, however counterintuitive that sounds ( @LynnS has even suggested that Jon may be the three-eyed crow, which is an intriguing concept), with Ghost effectively facilitating Bran's third eye 'finally opening' in the crypt. Then Summer/Bran in turn opens Ghost/Jon's third eye!  It's a closed causal time loop in which the brothers reciprocally influence each other -- seemingly without a source.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Just out of curiosity -- what mouth, lips, tongue, etc., was it that made the sounds that Ned ostensibly heard? 

The weirwood face's, or... ?

The leaves, sweetie...the leaves.  No, just kidding!   Actually, trees can't speak to humans.  Don't you know that's impossible?    

It's the most curious thing -- the weirwood can't speak (Bran explicitly tells us so, so it must be so); yet still he 'voices' something -- or maybe that's just a flowery metaphor GRRM felt like throwing in to confuse us...so let's not be admitting any of that.  

Ned likes staring at tree trunks.  When the burden of senseless honor gets to a man (and let's face it, blind devotion to that pussy-whipped, leaden-eyed, buddy-fucking, debauched Lady-killer Bobby B is a pretty senseless purpose in life); and when one just can't be as smooth as Littlefinger reveling in the kaleidoscopic jouissance of deflecting 'the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune'; and in general one is beset on all sides by bastards, arseholes, nagging wives, errant kids, and hounded by the ever-looming 'blue eyes of death' -- one needs the soothing relief of simply saying 'Who's there?' to a tree!   N.B. One should make sure to snap up ones head and twist ones neck around suddenly into an unnatural position, as if doing a Norse tango; frown at the tree so that someone writing a story about you would be sure to notate your passionate intensity, and give that tree bark a real-good, penetrating, myopic stare -- in order to obtain maximum benefit from the meditation.  Release is sure to follow.