A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I can't think of a single POV/protagonist in our story (other than Melisandre*) who has actual prophetic visions. Not even Dany. Again, internally, not externally. Quaithe and Bloodraven and Shade of the Evening do not count as they're all external influences. The whole "coming close to death triggers powers" thing has a lot of holes in it. What constitutes as coming close to death? Dany stepping into the fire? Davos almost drowning? Tyrion's wound in the Blackwater? Jaime losing his hand? None of these characters gain any sort of prophetic visions or new skills after "dying." I also would not count riding a dragon as some sort of magical ability you gain after dying; there were countless dragonriders in the past, none of whom were very much special in any way. 
Now, I'm not saying magic or visions do not exist in their world. On the contrary, I do think it's there and isn't futuristic technology or telepathy or whatever some people say to try and debunk magic. Bran DOES have magical abilities that are internal and innate to himself, but it has nothing to do with seeing the future. At least not until he hooks up to the weirwoods. 

*As for Melisandre, the visions she sees could very well be external. She sees them only through fire, and these visions are being "sent" to her. At least that's what she claims. Whether or not these prophetic visions are innate to her or she's tapping some power she doesn't even understand is hard to say. 

What is the difference really between internally and externally if they are coming from a different point in "time" such as the "past or the future". 

If it is through the dream portal or a portal such as fire, there are characters in this story who are clearly accessing a "time" that is set in stone in the "future" that technically to us the readers and characters in the books has not happened yet in "the present", and this vision and information of the future can provoke a response in a time we class as the present. 

Jojens symbolic dreams of future events provoked a response. Cause and effect operating with no rules of "time" in play. Alebelly never washed for days due to a telling of the Ironborn taking Winterfell. It's irrelevant the information was tricky to read, it's origin was still rooted in "the future" was it not?. And still caused a reaction in "the present". 

When Mel sees the girl in grey on a dying horse clear as day, that most certainly is a glimpse through the Fire gateway into the "future" and it causes her to act on it in the present and tell Jon who then thinks his sister may be approaching etc. 

All those reactions and thoughts of Mels and Jon's were caused in the "present" by an action from a "time" we class as the "future" are they not?.

So if Ned is cleaning Ice in his "present" and Bran whispering makes him turn to ask who's there, that is the same idea isn't it?. Its perspective like me and @cgrav are saying. Past, present, future? It's all which angle you look at it but I believe through these mediums that cause and effect can be set in stone regardless of "time". 

[Renly's Banana]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What is the difference really between internally and externally if they are coming from a different point in "time" such as the "past or the future". 

Well it makes a difference to the origin of this power. 
Bloodraven was the one sending visions to Bran through his dreams. Not so much past or future, but that was simply the origin of that. Quaithe talks to Daenerys about the future, Dany does not ever see it herself through any natural abilities. Except for when she drank Shade of the Evening and it showed her visions of the past and the future and even alternate realities. 

I guess what I'm getting at is not so much how these powers work, but how they seem to be triggered. None of our POVs receive these future-seeing abilities naturally (like Daenys, Daeron, Daemon, Jojen, etc.), it's always some external person or substance causing it to happen to them. And that's what I was talking about when I differentiate between external and internal. Not so much anything against your point, just.. pointing stuff out, I guess.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A step back in time to an archived thread. It is interesting.

DwD was released July 2011. The archived thread Time Travel Party Foul started in December of that year. Short thread only three pages. Started Dec 2011. Died out Jan 2013.

Me personally, I think Martin is going to use Bran's greenseeing skills & the weirwoods as a device to reveal parts of the story.

Wanted to help out even though I am not on board.

Had to smile there. The link took me to an exact part where a poster uses my own preferred term of a 'Stable time loop'. I like that. 

I wholeheartedly agree GRRM is going to use Bran as a device in this way but I also think there is so much more there. I think GRRM is gearing us up for heartache from Brans perspective. He will end up being the cause of an event/s and realise there is nothing he can ever do to change that. I think this will devastate Bran and play a part in pushing him toward a big sacrifice, possibly himself, and this will all tie into the bittersweet ending. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Well it makes a difference to the origin of this power. 
Bloodraven was the one sending visions to Bran through his dreams. Not so much past or future, but that was simply the origin of that. Quaithe talks to Daenerys about the future, Dany does not ever see it herself through any natural abilities. Except for when she drank Shade of the Evening and it showed her visions of the past and the future and even alternate realities. 

I guess what I'm getting at is not so much how these powers work, but how they seem to be triggered. None of our POVs receive these future-seeing abilities naturally (like Daenys, Daeron, Daemon, Jojen, etc.), it's always some external person or substance causing it to happen to them. And that's what I was talking about when I differentiate between external and internal. Not so much anything against your point, just.. pointing stuff out, I guess.

I do see what you mean. But if we look at Bloodraven telling Dunk and Egg about the dreams in TMK. He calls it "the gift" of dreaming of things to come. Not all Targaryens have it but certain Targs and Blackfyres can have the "gift". He also talks about those who are blessed with red eyes or green eyes who are blessed to receive the "gift" in regards to the Old Gods magic dreams. So it is a natural ability in a sense in truth I suppose isn't it? because not everybody seems to be able to accesss the future like the GOHH or Jojen, who have red eyes and green eyes funnily enough, or like Daenys, Daemon and Daeron.

In regards to the actual vision of the event, or the information itself, do you perhaps agree that it at least comes from a "time" such as the "future" and that this can then have cause and effect on things in "the present"?. 

This is mainly what I'm trying to get people on board with here, because if we agree on that then it comes down to perspective really and Ned reacting in his present was because of an action in what we would refer to as the future. Which therefore means, Brans actions in "the present" were the cause of Neds reactions in the "past". 

[Macgregor of the North]

@cgrav if we look at the ingestion of a substance that then makes the person the medium or portal in a sense. Drinking the shade of the evening can project images of a "time" that is yet to happen such as "the future" for the drinker to see as a vision. 

Blood seems to act as the key trigger for Maggy to access this "future time". 

So people themselves can become powerful tools in regards to the accessing of this "time" can't they if certain substances enter their body. 

And what they see can effect how they, and even more seriously perhaps, other people too, think and also act in a time we would class as the "present". Cause and effect without the rules of "time" applying. 

Flip that on it's head for a minute, and it is simply information sent from one "time" to another causing a reaction, in this case now the "future" can easily change to the "present" as it's all perspective (which is now Bob having sixteen kids and Cersei having three, stay with me lol), and the "present" which was Maggy in the tent telling Cersei her "future", then changes to "the past". 

From this other angle, the present has effected the past and so always was the cause of that reaction. 

Isnt this correct?. Or have I lost the ball lol. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

That was some good points about Jon, Bran, Ghost and the dream. Lots to think on there, showing that the rabbit hole may well go deeper than first thought. 

Another thing I have thought on is glass candles and how dreams can apparently be sent "through" them. Do these magical portals have the ability for a skilled user to send dreams over "time" from such places as "the future" to the "past". Marwyn never does tell Sam the glass candles can operate outside the strictures of "time", but then again, he doesn't say they can't.  

I wonder if "pate" will attempt to steal the glass candle as well as whatever he wants from the citadels vaults. This would perhaps place a glass candle out in the open and in the hands of the Faceless men. 

Arya, a Warg and Skinchanger herself with potential like Brans and Jon's could find herself with the chance to use such a tool. 

My minds wandering here of course, wild speculation for no other reason than to speculate on possibilities.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, cgrav said:

General statement on the topic: I think it is worth debating whether the ability to give prophecy comes from within or without, but ultimately we still have to ask where the prophetic information comes from.

If our answer is "the future" or "the underworld", then the prophet is simply the gate through which the information passes. And in the case of Mel, the red door that allows terrible shadows to return to the realm of the living.

As an aside, I saw interesting intersection of myths today. The myth of Orpheus, who sought to bring his dead wife back from Hades, ends with Orpheus being struck down by Zeus's lightning so he can't tell the living world the secrets of the dead. Not dissimilar to the idea of an undead greenseer goading lightning from the gods. In both cases, wrathful gods attempting to bar the gate that hold the dead back, though in the case of the Grey King, failing.

Definitely worthy of debate but I always tend to then look for the source and I can't shake the idea that the information is ultimately coming from a time set in stone that we simply have not saw yet that can only be classed as "the future" for all intents and purpose. 

Bloodraven classes Targaryens like Daenys, Daeron and Daemon as those who have "the gift". Is this gift bestowed upon "chosen" people or is it a random thing?. That's hard to tell but all the same, these Targaryens are undoubtedly privy to information from and have the actual ability to witness actions and happenings from a time they would class as the future from their own present, and it effects their actions in that present time. 

Same with Jojen and the GOHH. Bloodraven explains people who have those traits such as red eyes and green eyes have been marked by the Old Gods to receive "the gift". In their case, the same still applies. They are undoubtedly privy to information from and have the actual ability to witness actions and happenings from a time they would class as the future from their own present, and it effects their actions in that present time. 

Important to note, this can effect the actions of others around them in their present time too. 

On what @Renly's Banana touches on with it being hereditary, there is some truth to that in that blood seems to be important for certain people to become the portal or medium for these visions. Jojen and the GOHH I think have blood of very ancient powerful people or beings running through their veins which could help with their ability. The Targaryens blood also seems important to the three dreamers above that I mentioned.

Another interesting bloodline is the Blackwoods. I have long thought Bloodraven has "the gift", and had had it since his youth. I have two threads on this topic. But is it his Targaryen blood or Blackwood blood that is the key element here. The Blackwoods we know are certainly for inclusion here as they are proven to be able to become portals or mediums for these connections to "time" such as the "future", and also it is proven that a Blackwood has used this information from a vision of the future to effect her present time and those around her in that time. 

Enter the Lady Agnes Blackwood:

"Lord Tully abandoned Riverrun without a fight, fleeing with all his strength to join the host gathering at Raventree Hall under Lady Agnes Blackwood and her sons. But when Lady Agnes advanced upon the ironborn, her belligerent neighbor Lord Lothar Bracken fell upon her rear with all his strength and put her men to flight. Lady Agnes herself and two of her sons were captured and delivered to King Harwyn, who forced the mother to watch as he strangled her boys with his bare hands. Yet Lady Agnes did not weep if the tales are true. "I have other sons," she told the King of the Iron Isles. "Raventree shall endure long after you and yours are cast down and destroyed. Your line shall end in blood and fire."

Here, she shows she has seen a glimpse of the future because:

"The dragonflame that destroyed Harrenhal put a fiery end to King Harren's dreams, the domination of the riverlands by the ironborn, and the "black line" of House Hoare."

Those words she said that day on the battlefield would have provoked gasps and reactions for certain. Reactions that wouldn't have happened if Agnes had not saw the vision of "the future". 

There must be a "time" ahead of our characters presents that is set in stone and it can be accessed. And I believe it is proven that it can effect the present. 

All we do then is change the positions of the words "past, present and future" and then we are looking at a "present" event having an effect on a "past event" aren't we?.

Cause and effect set in stone, nothing changing. 

[cgrav]

I do agree with @Renly's Banana that bloodline has something to do with it. Certain ones are apparently tailor made for the various "gates" to this other mode of reality. It's been speculated in the past that Dayne is the original magical bloodline, and that one aspect of LB's "re-forging" will be the reunition of the bloodlines that Dayne spawned. 

[Renly's Banana]

13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In regards to the actual vision of the event, or the information itself, do you perhaps agree that it at least comes from a "time" such as the "future" and that this can then have cause and effect on things in "the present"?. 

In certain instances, yes. 
In the story, I'd say there are four different modes of clairvoyance/prophetic visions/"time portals"/whatever you want to call it. These are dreams, fire, weirwoods and blood. The last being the least known, since only Maggy the Frog seemed to gaze at the future by tasting a drop of blood. Mirri Maz Duur may have been able to do the same, but it's debatable. 

Only with three of them (dreams, fire and blood), can these visions of the future affect the present. Jojen's green dreams, Maggy's prophecy and Melisandre's visions have all obviously influenced the people around them in some way. On this, I do agree with you. Incidentally, if Patchface DOES have some prophetic power, I'd lump him into the dream category; his broken psyche may just make it hard for him to interpret what he's seeing. Which is interesting to note, because the dream category seems to be the one linked with bloodlines the most (Targaryens, Jojen's and the GOHH's supposed link to the Children). 

Weirwoods are a special case all on their own, however. Here, I don't think you are able to influence the past, present or future. At least in no meaningful way. No matter how hard Bran tries, he's unable to communicate with anyone. And it's not just because he's a novice, Bloodraven claims to not be able to communicate either. No one can. 
Yes Theon and Ned seem to react to something, a whisper, a noise.. but it's very hard to categorize that as having a solid impact or ripple in time. It's sort of nebulous enough to be open for debate. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

In certain instances, yes. 
In the story, I'd say there are four different modes of clairvoyance/prophetic visions/"time portals"/whatever you want to call it. These are dreams, fire, weirwoods and blood. The last being the least known, since only Maggy the Frog seemed to gaze at the future by tasting a drop of blood. Mirri Maz Duur may have been able to do the same, but it's debatable. 

Only with three of them (dreams, fire and blood), can these visions of the future affect the present. Jojen's green dreams, Maggy's prophecy and Melisandre's visions have all obviously influenced the people around them in some way. On this, I do agree with you. Incidentally, if Patchface DOES have some prophetic power, I'd lump him into the dream category; his broken psyche may just make it hard for him to interpret what he's seeing. Which is interesting to note, because the dream category seems to be the one linked with bloodlines the most (Targaryens, Jojen's and the GOHH's supposed link to the Children). 

Weirwoods are a special case all on their own, however. Here, I don't think you are able to influence the past, present or future. At least in no meaningful way. No matter how hard Bran tries, he's unable to communicate with anyone. And it's not just because he's a novice, Bloodraven claims to not be able to communicate either. No one can. 
Yes Theon and Ned seem to react to something, a whisper, a noise.. but it's very hard to categorize that as having a solid impact or ripple in time. It's sort of nebulous enough to be open for debate. 

Brilliant. We are on the same page RB. 

The Weirwoods though, let's not play down their power. These living gateways do not operate within the strictures of time in any sense whatsoever. They simply do not understand the concept of "time".

So when we look at the bigger picture of time, and focus on things where the Weirwood tree network is involved, I believe that when Bran slips his consciousness from his own crippled body in what we class as the "present" into the tree network, he has actually became the tree in a sense as per Brans own words. In this fashion Bran is able to now actually operate outside the strictures of time and view "time". 

In two instances he sees his father in times we class as "the past" and his actions prompt reactions, cause and effect, from Ned. The author even spells it out for us:

(This is the time where Ned is praying)

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

GRRM clearly tells us Brans "voice" was the whisper on the wind and the rustling of the leaves so I believe it's set in stone as what caused Ned to look long at the tree and frown at it. 

Lets float for a while now and soar high like Bran, whooosh!, up we go waaaay up, @cgrav, you come too mate.

Lets visit Ned cleaning Ice, or Ned praying that time. These are events we the reader would class as the "past" but in the grand scale of things that are all set in stone such as the past present and future (which the Weirwoods view as one and the same), then these are simply "events happening". 

We can then return to the ground and find ourselves beside Ned in a "time" we would class as "the present". So, Bran being wedded to the trees is in a time such as the future from that point. So, Bran slipping his consciousness from his crippled body into the tree network happens in the future and so therefore Brans words and whispers source is rooted in "the future" too.

If you believe that actions from the future can effect the present people and prompt reactions, cause and effect, then I think you can see my point here. 

When we step back and gain perspective, the words past present and future can really lose some of their meaning here, but for the sake of the exercise, let's give the words back their meaning and apply them to different "times and actions". 

Through the use of the magical Weirwood portal, gateway or medium, Bran has actually been the cause of an action in a "time". Present effecting (causing) the past. Or, Neds present being effected (caused) by the future (which you believe is possible). 

But, in every instance like this, where one of the magical portals or gateways or mediums are in play, the cause and effect becomes set in stone as why something happened and is always the reason something happened the way it happened. 

Nothing is ever "changed". As Bloodraven tells us the "past" remains the same. 

I know you say that the Weirwoods can't effect the past in any "meaningful" way, but that to me seems like you are on board with the idea that Bran can effect it "slightly" with his windy whispers and rustling leaves and that is no big deal. 

What if Bran were to meddle when his gift grows though and finds that he is the cause of something terrible that no matter what he does, he can never change or set right?. Doesn't that make for interesting reading and potentially heart wrenching scenes in Brans arc?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

We're over here @Dorian Martell's son

Can you keep it together though please? I quite like this thread and really don't want you getting abusive and having the mods step in to alter it with deleted comments. We're all getting tired of that now. 

So, welcome, but behave please.

First things first. I want you to answer a couple questions I poised to you in our last "encounter" that you danced around, or rather just point blank avoided.

Isn't it true that you personally detest the idea of any kind of well used trope such as time loops and the like being used in ASOIAF? Your exact word was "detest".

And, do you still think GRRM would never use a certain plot device or trope that has been used again and again over years and years of story telling. You believe that GRRM would never go down this route isn't it so?.

 

[Slowpoke Martin]

You guys are going on and on about story structure involving the timelines that doesn't make sense. The only event involving manipulation of time mentioned that does not make sense, is Ned's reaction to Bran calling out to him while he is praying.

How can an event happen in the past when the cause of said event is from the future and needs to look into the past to cause the initial event in the first place?!?! That is a paradox and I'm really looking forward to how GRRM explains it.

All these other time manipulation events you guys keep bringing up can be explained as nothing more than manipulated visions of collected information, which makes more sense than people actually tapping into the very fabric of time itself.

Jojen seeing the IronBorn invading is just information sent by someone who would know what the Ironborn are about to do.

Daenys seeing the destruction of Valyria is just information of what the CoTF or the Faceless Men are already planning.

There are probably more examples but I'm too lazy to look them up. I'm just saying that these prophetic visions are explainable when you take into account how easily information can be obtained through magic. Manipulating this information as looking into the future would surely give you considerable influence over people, example: "R'hllor" manipulating Mel with information who in turns manipulates Stannis with said visions of the future.

Now I'm not doubting that it isn't possible in this world of magic for people to access the fabric of time, I just think that it has to be someone extremely powerful. The only person who comes to mind of wielding such potential power is Bran.

I actually have my own little theory about information manipulation and why certain events aren't going as planned.

[Macgregor of the North]

36 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

How can an event happen in the past when the cause of said event is from the future and needs to look into the past to cause the initial event in the first place?!?! That is a paradox and I'm really looking forward to how GRRM explains it.

You wont always get an exact explanation of "how" this happened by an author or film maker etc. I would however be happy just to have confirmation that it was the "cause" and always was the cause. The rest can be a mystery if it pleases GRRM. The involvement of magical Weirwood tree gateways that do not understand the concept of time and enable greenseers to literally gaze into the past goes some way to helping us understand the "how" I think. If one can actually gaze into the past, and there is magical gateways in the story that enable this. Magical gateways that view the past present and future as one and the same, then it is my belief that there are also other gateways, mediums, portals (whatever) that enable a glimpse at the future. A time set in stone that we the readers have not seen yet as we are trapped in an eternal present. I do believe there are magical gateways, doorways or portals etc though that enable access to this "time", and it can effect other points in "time".

44 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

All these other time manipulation events you guys keep bringing up can be explained as nothing more than manipulated visions of collected information, which makes more sense than people actually tapping into the very fabric of time itself.

Collected information taken from where? Melisandre believes that she is looking at glimpses of "the future". And does it have to be the option that makes more sense to some that is the true answer?. 

46 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Jojen seeing the IronBorn invading is just information sent by someone who would know what the Ironborn are about to do.

Sent by who, from where? And how exactly do they know exactly what the Ironborn are going to do?.

47 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Daenys seeing the destruction of Valyria is just information of what the CoTF or the Faceless Men are already planning.

Could you explain what you mean here in more detail?

48 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

There are probably more examples but I'm too lazy to look them up

There are probably? Could you please look them up, it would help your case.

49 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

I'm just saying that these prophetic visions are explainable when you take into account how easily information can be obtained through magic. Manipulating this information as looking into the future would surely give you considerable influence over people, example: "R'hllor" manipulating Mel with information who in turns manipulates Stannis with said visions of the future.

Magic is a pretty broad term to use as an explanation. Actually glimpsing the future can easily be explained as magic. When Mel sees the girl in grey on a dying horse she is undoubtedly looking at a time such as "the future" that hasn't happened yet to us readers but in my opinion could just as easily be a "time" that is already set in stone. If Mel is allowed to glimpse such a time due to her magical ability then that is a clear case of the future effecting the present. If we look at it from another perspective though, it is information from that present time (the girl on the horse) effecting the "past" (mel watching the vision and then having conversations with Jon about it that effect his thoughts etc).

 

55 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Now I'm not doubting that it isn't possible in this world of magic for people to access the fabric of time, I just think that it has to be someone extremely powerful. The only person who comes to mind of wielding such potential power is Bran.

Cool. Seemed like you were for a time there.

[hiemal]

On 4/19/2017 at 11:47 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

 

 

Cause and effect. It seems to me that when these mediums or portals are at play and non linear time and actions are being accessed through them, there can be cause and effect and this becomes set in stone as always being the cause of an event, even though the cause and effect happened at what we would class as different points in "time". 

 

Exactly! Glimpsing the future is to put yourself in shackles, as the Targ's have discovered to their dismay over centuries after Daenys put them under the whip-hand of prophecy.

Also- while I like the idea of portals to Faerie (in essence) I also think it may be probable that the non-linear time interacted with through certain mediums arerelated the souls flowing through them rather than any intrinsic quality in the wood or the flames.

Could the power Jojen says lives in wood that is the equal of fire be the souls of human, Children, and even animals which extend beyond time into eternity but are now bound into this unnatural soul cycle?

[Macgregor of the North]

55 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Exactly! Glimpsing the future is to put yourself in shackles, as the Targ's have discovered to their dismay over centuries after Daenys put them under the whip-hand of prophecy.

Also- while I like the idea of portals to Faerie (in essence) I also think it may be probable that the non-linear time interacted with through certain mediums arerelated the souls flowing through them rather than any intrinsic quality in the wood or the flames.

Could the power Jojen says lives in wood that is the equal of fire be the souls of human, Children, and even animals which extend beyond time into eternity but are now bound into this unnatural soul cycle?

Jojen does say that the singers view the Weirwood tree network as "the Old Gods" themselves. All the spirits/souls of the dead Greenseers and singers go into the trees and the leaves etc and "become part of that Godhood".

When a living Greenseer becomes wed to the trees after eating the Weirwood paste and blood mix he can tap in to that very Godhood it seems. Bran described it as literally "becoming the tree" when he slipped his consciousness from his own skin and went into the tree roots. 

So it seems he is at one with these eternal souls who have extended beyond time into eternity like you mention. 

I think things that Jojen says on this topic holds weight as his knowledge likely stems from his father who spent all that time with the green men on the Isle of faces, and that's a fairly decent place to learn some truths on the topic of the singers I would imagine.

 

[cgrav]

@Slowpoke Martin @Macgregor of the North

I think the Occam's Razor method of explaining things forces us to choose between conceptual and narrative complexity. 

"Magic" alone still requires characters to use it, and that leaves us with questions about motives, logistics, physical/magical possibility... information requires a very defined path between characters. And ultimately we are still left asking how the magic works. 

I am fond of the "Timeless Underworld" or "Well of time" theory because it provides a fairly unified explanation of prophecy. Characters with the ability need access only one gateway to see information. Some people like Jojen and Daenys get glimpses of this and just see the information, while others like Bran and BR can move through this realm as they please.

The concept is also well established in literature and the real world mythology that GRRM draws from. The Greenseer and Weirwood ideas are taken straight from Odin and Yggdrasil. Odin can see the inevitable future and visit other realms by traveling up and down the axis mundi of Yggdrasil.

And it's also a clean explanation because people aren't manipulating or traveling through time, rather they are just experiencing a different mode of time. It's like watching a movie versus having every frame laid in front of you at once.

[Macgregor of the North]

42 minutes ago, cgrav said:

@Slowpoke Martin @Macgregor of the North

I think the Occam's Razor method of explaining things forces us to choose between conceptual and narrative complexity. 

"Magic" alone still requires characters to use it, and that leaves us with questions about motives, logistics, physical/magical possibility... information requires a very defined path between characters. And ultimately we are still left asking how the magic works. 

I am fond of the "Timeless Underworld" or "Well of time" theory because it provides a fairly unified explanation of prophecy. Characters with the ability need access only one gateway to see information. Some people like Jojen and Daenys get glimpses of this and just see the information, while others like Bran and BR can move through this realm as they please.

The concept is also well established in literature and the real world mythology that GRRM draws from. The Greenseer and Weirwood ideas are taken straight from Odin and Yggdrasil. Odin can see the inevitable future and visit other realms by traveling up and down the axis mundi of Yggdrasil.

And it's also a clean explanation because people aren't manipulating or traveling through time, rather they are just experiencing a different mode of time. It's like watching a movie versus having every frame laid in front of you at once.

We are on the same page and I agree mostly cgrav but it seems Daenys saw more than just "information". She actually foresaw the destruction of Valyria by fire. Jojen seems to have actually saw an event too although it appears less clear with symbolic happenings. 

And im not really with the watching a movie description for Bran, I still think that's something more as his actions prompt reactions undoubtedly in my mind.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

@Slowpoke Martin @Macgregor of the North

I think the Occam's Razor method of explaining things forces us to choose between conceptual and narrative complexity. 

"Magic" alone still requires characters to use it, and that leaves us with questions about motives, logistics, physical/magical possibility... information requires a very defined path between characters. And ultimately we are still left asking how the magic works. 

I am fond of the "Timeless Underworld" or "Well of time" theory because it provides a fairly unified explanation of prophecy. Characters with the ability need access only one gateway to see information. Some people like Jojen and Daenys get glimpses of this and just see the information, while others like Bran and BR can move through this realm as they please.

The concept is also well established in literature and the real world mythology that GRRM draws from. The Greenseer and Weirwood ideas are taken straight from Odin and Yggdrasil. Odin can see the inevitable future and visit other realms by traveling up and down the axis mundi of Yggdrasil.

And it's also a clean explanation because people aren't manipulating or traveling through time, rather they are just experiencing a different mode of time. It's like watching a movie versus having every frame laid in front of you at once.

How do you feel about:

1. This Timeless Underworld as Faerie (or fairyland) re-adapted here as something accessible through (or even maintained by) the weirnet, the flamenet, and even a hypothetical icenet?

2. Do these represent separate Underworlds because they draw on different wells of souls?

3. The Wall as some kind of portal to this Underworld? I am struck by Symeon Stareye's vision of Hellhounds fighting there.

[cgrav]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

How do you feel about:

1. This Timeless Underworld as Faerie (or fairyland) re-adapted here as something accessible through (or even maintained by) the weirnet, the flamenet, and even a hypothetical icenet?

2. Do these represent separate Underworlds because they draw on different wells of souls?

3. The Wall as some kind of portal to this Underworld? I am struck by Symeon Stareye's vision of Hellhounds fighting there.

1) Agree. I think the different elemental objects of worship represent different means of access to the same "place" because they are all forms of death. 

2) probably not, but possible. I think it ties up more neatly as a unified concept.

3) I think the Wall has that function symbolically. I see the Wall as a sort of figurative River Styx.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

How do you feel about:

1. This Timeless Underworld as Faerie (or fairyland) re-adapted here as something accessible through (or even maintained by) the weirnet, the flamenet, and even a hypothetical icenet?

Agreed.  The Faerie lore/Irish myth has the hollow hills/burial mounds/islands as the entrance into this underworld and while known as many different names, one such is Tir na nog, translated as 'Land of youth'.  Visitors into this underworld loose all concept of time and in some cases will stay for what they think is a period of three years only to find they have been gone from their world for three-hundred years.  Or sometimes the opposite is true and they stay for years only to return to their world at the very stage they left, not losing an hour.  The gods will often appear to these visitors in a puff of mist and can be seen travelling through the real world in the form of wind, often a rustling of the leaves in this wind is a sign of their presence. If GRRM is playing with these concepts [which I think he is] then the caves/underworld and weirwood trees are perfect tools at his disposal.  And on top of the trees not comprehending time as humans do, he straight out tells us in the text that 'the caves are timeless'.   

4 hours ago, hiemal said:

3. The Wall as some kind of portal to this Underworld? I am struck by Symeon Stareye's vision of Hellhounds fighting there

Again agreed.  If the caves/caverns are the asoiaf version of the underworld then we have the extensive cave system below the Wall, and I like @Cgrav's idea of the Wall as a sort of figurative River Styx.