A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I know you are not speaking to me. You keep mentioning discuss the books. You on the other hand are bringing up speculation and opinion, Your pet theory can't be proved or disproved.

"Royal is my race", do as you do with me, ignore. I gotta say though in this particular instance you did challenge and bait your adversary. I think your sparring buddy is correct.

What is more insane is that I am actually giving your petty post more front page time. For the life of me I cannot understand why the forces that be allow you to continue.

 

 

 

Your spot on CP, I'm not but here you are fighting big bad DMs battles for him lol.

There are three people, nope sorry, two now because thelittledragonthatcould gave up and left the forums, that have taken a personal dislike to me and let it show on these forums. I find it absolutely hilarious watching you all get in your feelings and resorting to personal attacks because you simply can not control yourselves. 

You Cleganes Pup were once just like DM and used to follow my threads around like a lost puppy but have since stopped commenting, although never stopped following evidently. And it seems you haven't 100% stopped commenting either. 

You know what the really funny part is. You guys actually seem to have such strong feelings toward me that I wonder if it bothers you in your day to day life. Me on the other hand, as harsh as this sounds, I could not care a fig for any of you three. You are simply three pictures on a screen that make words appear from time to time. I don't like you, or dislike you, I simply do not care about you. Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely wonderful people on here with brilliant attitudes who's opinions I value. Anyway, back on track.

You would never ever catch me come on a thread any of you begin because I simply could not care. I'll pass it by without a second glance because I'm in control of my feelings and actions and wouldn't want any ill feeling on someone else's thread. 

You guys though lol, will continue to follow me around and project your dislike because... well, who cares why because it's you and it's your life not mine, your free to do what you like. 

But seriously, if you can't handle the chat over here without getting angry or in your feelings, think about staying away girls/guys because life and this forum is to be enjoyed. 

What will likely happen is that you will continue though and you, just like littledragonthatcould will just give up "one day", which I'm easy with and wouldn't lose sleep over, but DMs. No, he's got a forum death wish and is on only one course it seems. His third suspension looms I fear because he simply can not control his anger and let's it seep into his posts, and that my friend will be his downfall. 

Btw, if you care to weigh in on the topic of Bran, and what made Ned react at the tree, then by all means pick up where your buddy gave up and let's go there. Offers there, but remember, be nice! (said in a Dalton, Roadhouse voice).

[Macgregor of the North]

On 25/04/2017 at 5:02 PM, hiemal said:

Exactly! Glimpsing the future is to put yourself in shackles, as the Targ's have discovered to their dismay over centuries after Daenys put them under the whip-hand of prophecy.

Also- while I like the idea of portals to Faerie (in essence) I also think it may be probable that the non-linear time interacted with through certain mediums arerelated the souls flowing through them rather than any intrinsic quality in the wood or the flames.

Could the power Jojen says lives in wood that is the equal of fire be the souls of human, Children, and even animals which extend beyond time into eternity but are now bound into this unnatural soul cycle?

Was thinking more on what you said here and it reminded me of the speech of the singers. 

"Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water."

Because the spirits of the dead Greenseers and singers are now in the Weirwood trees, and Bran is now tapped into that Godhood after eating the Weirwood and blood paste, could this perhaps  point to why Brans first attempts to talk while in the tree materialise as the "speech" of the singers?. 

Like he is talking through them or something and Ned is hearing Brans words in the language of the singers, those who sing the song of the earth. 

In Theons case, this is later, and Brans talents have perhaps grew? And enabled him to be clearer in his own speech?. Just throwing ideas out there folks. 

Thoughts @ravenous reader

 

[Bonkers]

On 26/04/2017 at 9:00 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are awfully condescending to someone YOU invite to a thread, especially since YOU seem to have already answered all the questions YOU "asked" me. Also, who is "we" in all of this? Because YOU seem to have the desire to bring me into every thread you post in asking me questions I have already answered ad nauseum. That doesn't look like someone who is tired of anything. It looks much more like someone who enjoys, no, more like, "loves" the interaction. Now, that being said, I can understand how difficult being a teenager is so I will forgive you this time for you awkward invitation. Would you like to ask me another question that you don't have an answer for? 

LOL....sorry Mac of the North, but that is a burn.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

LOL....sorry Mac of the North, but that is a burn.

Another lurker unearthed lol. Where do you lot come from. Would you perhaps care to take your best shot at the book topic at hand and take up where Dorian Martells son gave up?. I'd love to hear your opinion, provided you have one that is? I assume you do since you have taken the time to create an account and elevate yourself from lurker to poster. Let's be hearing it then?. 

[Bonkers]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

Another lurker unearthed lol. Where do you lot come from. Would you perhaps care to take your best shot at the book topic at hand and take up where Dorian Martells son gave up?. I'd love to hear your opinion, provided you have one that is? I assume you do since you have taken the time to create an account and elevate yourself from lurker to poster. Let's be hearing it then?. 

haha...nah.  I meant no offense, it just was a bit of a burn is all lol....I enjoy what you write!

[Bonkers]

....and just because I don't have thousands of posts is a bit offensive...I have a life away from my computer....you're being a tad sensitive I think...I meant no offense.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Bonkers said:

haha...nah.  I meant no offense, it just was a bit of a burn is all lol....I enjoy what you write!

Didn't think you did haha. Off with you then, back to lurking around. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

....and just because I don't have thousands of posts is a bit offensive...I have a life away from my computer....you're being a tad sensitive I think...I meant no offense.

The amount of posts you have means nothing to me, you can have two or twenty thousand and I wouldn't even notice. Lol, we all have lives away from here, what's your point? Now you seem sensitive. Nobody implied you never had a life. 

Look, i love this topic here though, and actually encourage people to discuss it. But, you actually have to come on and discuss it lol know what I mean?. 

If you come on the thread, at least have the intention to discuss the topic no? Isn't that what you started your account for? To discuss THE BOOKS? Or are you another Dorian Martells son who doesn't start threads but goes on others threads just to play around? I'm genuinely curious.

[Bonkers]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The amount of posts you have means nothing to me, you can have two or twenty thousand and I wouldn't even notice. Lol, we all have lives away from here, what's your point? Now you seem sensitive. Nobody implied you never had a life. 

Look, i love this topic here though, and actually encourage people to discuss it. But, you actually have to come on and discuss it lol know what I mean?. 

If you come on the thread, at least have the intention to discuss the topic no? Isn't that what you started your account for? To discuss THE BOOKS? Or are you another Dorian Martells son who doesn't start threads but goes on others threads just to play around? I'm genuinely curious.

Huh?  You called me a 'lurker', thus referring to the amount of posts and the fact that I made a comment about someone's post, not the topic.  If I had racked up 5,000 posts you would not call me that I am certain.  I only made it coz you guys always seem to have a rip and burn each other. 

And also, you presume my intentions far to easily.  No, I do not read threads with the intention of discussing them, I read them if I think they may be interesting.  So no, that is not why I started my account.  And yes, I have started threads.  I generally don't comment on threads if what I think has already been mentioned or discussed.  So sorry mate, you need to stop presuming other people's mindset.

As I said...it was just a passing comment, I meant no offense. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

Huh?  You called me a 'lurker', thus referring to the amount of posts and the fact that I made a comment about someone's post, not the topic.  If I had racked up 5,000 posts you would not call me that I am certain.  I only made it coz you guys always seem to have a rip and burn each other. 

And also, you presume my intentions far to easily.  No, I do not read threads with the intention of discussing them, I read them if I think they may be interesting.  So no, that is not why I started my account.  And yes, I have started threads.  I generally don't comment on threads if what I think has already been mentioned or discussed.  So sorry mate, you need to stop presuming other people's mindset.

As I said...it was just a passing comment, I meant no offense. 

A lurker is someone who lurks around threads but doesn't comment. You though , actually decided to comment, so you elevated from lurker to poster(and that can apply regardless of how many posts you have), but, you did it with no intention of discussing the books as I suspected so my "presuming your mindset" as you call it was spot on wasn't it? You actually have no intention of discussing the topic. So what's your issue? Because I called you out on the truth?. 

So you said earlier you enjoy what I write yeah? Does that mean you frequent my threads but never engage? You opened this thread why? Because you thought it may be interesting like you say?. Well, why are you still here? Would you actually like to discuss this topic or did you just waste 30 mins of your life for nothing lol?. Where is this going bonkers..???

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Was thinking more on what you said here and it reminded me of the speech of the singers. 

"Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water."

Because the spirits of the dead Greenseers and singers are now in the Weirwood trees, and Bran is now tapped into that Godhood after eating the Weirwood and blood paste, could this perhaps  point to why Brans first attempts to talk while in the tree materialise as the "speech" of the singers?. 

Like he is talking through them or something and Ned is hearing Brans words in the language of the singers, those who sing the song of the earth. 

In Theons case, this is later, and Brans talents have perhaps grew? And enabled him to be clearer in his own speech?. Just throwing ideas out there folks. 

Thoughts @ravenous reader

 

I've written on that before on the 'Bran's Growing Powers' re-read; scroll down to purple heading 'THE TRUE TONGUE AND BRANDON THE BUILDER' 

The song of the earth -- the song of stones, the rustle of leaves, the rain on water...

Now tell me; what language is this...

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake

?

2 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

you guys always seem to have a rip and burn each other

Indeed!  As I've said, they are like an old married couple...  I miss Dorian (but not as much as our host does ) -- the 'rip and burn' is not the same without him!   

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

I've written on that before on the 'Bran's Growing Powers' re-read; scroll down to purple heading 'THE TRUE TONGUE AND BRANDON THE BUILDER' 

The song of the earth -- the song of stones, the rustle of leaves, the rain on water...

Now tell me; what language is this...

?

Indeed!  As I've said, they are like an old married couple...  I miss Dorian (but not as much as our host does ) -- the 'rip and burn' is not the same without him!   

 

 

I have always viewed the languages as akin to each other in a sense and I've speculated that the Singers can converse with the Others, which in a round about way means that now Bran is wedded to that Godhood and all their knowledge, could he also learn to comprehend the speech of the Others like Brandon the builder learned to comprehend the speech of the Singers? Interesting to think so huh?

DM is done, he hasn't been able to answer simple questions for two threads, instead he resorts to insults and crude comments about homosexuality and stuff, no wonder he has been suspended twice. He is a done man, soundly beaten in our saga. 

[Bonkers]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

A lurker is someone who lurks around threads but doesn't comment. You though , actually decided to comment, so you elevated from lurker to poster(and that can apply regardless of how many posts you have), but, you did it with no intention of discussing the books as I suspected so my "presuming your mindset" as you call it was spot on wasn't it? You actually have no intention of discussing the topic. So what's your issue? Because I called you out on the truth?. 

So you said earlier you enjoy what I write yeah? Does that mean you frequent my threads but never engage? You opened this thread why? Because you thought it may be interesting like you say?. Well, why are you still here? Would you actually like to discuss this topic or did you just waste 30 mins of your life for nothing lol?. Where is this going bonkers..???

...I made a comment that was a joke, and not meant to be offensive. I agree with many things that have already been discussed so any comments I make will be redundant at this point...why should I comment?

...I am sure I have at some point

...I am only commenting past my first post because you keep making comments I feel I should reply to and asking me questions....you keep popping up in my notification window. 

Please let's not derail anymore.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Bonkers said:

...I made a comment that was a joke, and not meant to be offensive. I agree with many things that have already been discussed so any comments I make will be redundant at this point...why should I comment?

...I am sure I have at some point

...I am only commenting past my first post because you keep making comments I feel I should reply to and asking me questions....you keep popping up in my notification window. 

Please let's not derail anymore.

I have never noticed or spoken with you once. 

Yes, let's not. 

You need not reply further. 

[ravenous reader]

30 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He is a done man, soundly beaten in our saga. 

I doubt Dorian is 'done.'  We might even be introduced to Dorian Martell's cousin soon...

As to 'soundly beaten,' you might want to re-evaluate your word choice there Mac...

Now try and see the funny side.  It's not necessary in life to always be 'right'.   

30 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have always viewed the languages as akin to each other in a sense and I've speculated that the Singers can converse with the Others, which in a round about way means that now Bran is wedded to that Godhood and all their knowledge, could he also learn to comprehend the speech of the Others like Brandon the builder learned to comprehend the speech of the Singers? Interesting to think so huh?

I think the singers do more than converse with the Others, I think they sang the Others into existence -- just like in 'The Silmarillion'.  According to my 'killing word' concept, Will the treacherous far-eyes in the Prologue can be read as a greenseer figure whose 'whispered prayer' carried through the sentinel tree to the 'nameless gods of the wood' (=the Others), by which the Others can be understood as 'the offspring of his thought,' to quote the Silmarillion.  

What's more, these languages are not just quaint ditties sung by elvish fairy folk to assist you when you have insomnia, they are weapons -- 'killing words' like in 'Dune'.   So when the Other speaks (as Will's proxy) to Waymar, I believe it is the 'ice cracking' magical speech which actually cracks Waymar's sword -- or at least compromises its structural integrity to the point that it froze over, becoming so brittle that a 'lazy parry' was then sufficient to shatter it.  This would not have happened with a Valyrian steel or obsidian blade, or whatever or whomever Lightbringer is, since those are fire-based swords and therefore can resist the icy charm.

[Macgregor of the North]

Quote

I doubt Dorian is 'done.'  We might even be introduced to Dorian Martell's cousin soon...

On this duel he is. Utterly defeated. Resorting to insults, going silent on the matter and finally resorting to denial is the last desperate actions of a done man trying to save face. Hahaha I agree with that bit though, we will meet Dorian martells family tree when he returns from each suspension lol.

38 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Now try and see the funny side.  It's not necessary in life to always be 'right'.   

I actually preach that sage advice myself.

38 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think the singers do more than converse with the Others, I think they sang the Others into existence -- just like in 'The Silmarillion'.

I take it you don't actually mean that literally?. I have never been a fan of the idea that the singers actually purposely "created" the Others. Nope, doesn't sit well with me at all. Im not really on board with the killing word idea either.

38 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This would not have happened with a Valyrian steel or obsidian blade, or whatever or whomever Lightbringer is, since those are fire-based swords and therefore can resist the icy charm.

You know, its funny, i said this exact same thing yesterday in the "prologue mistake" thread. I don't think any words made the sword weaker or frost over at all. I think that the Others sword done that during the duel and the Other noticed that. Then they stop for that wee breather and Waymars panting. The swords do not clash again until after Waymar misses his parry and the Other sees the red blood on the floor.

The lead Other now identifies Waymar as a mere mortal man with regular steel so he then mocks him, knowing that he is not "the one" carrying dragonsteel as dragonsteel never frosted over thousands of years back, so even though Waymar throws his whole might at his last shot the Other parries lazily because it has saw the frost and knows the duel is done and this is a mere boy who bleeds and can die.

The swords clash after the frosting and it shatters. The official signal for the group that this is not "the one", so... well we all know what happens.

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

Quote

So when the Other speaks (as Will's proxy) to Waymar, I believe it is the 'ice cracking' magical speech which actually cracks Waymar's sword -- or at least compromises its structural integrity to the point that it froze over,

You know RR, I can't wholly agree on this. It's cool we can derail, aside from Brans arc the Prologue is one of my favourite topics. 

Do you think that it's the Others words that make the sword freeze over?. 

"Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light." 

This is before the Other draws blood and even speaks. White with frost sounds like frozen over already to me.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I take it you don't actually mean that literally?. I have never been a fan of the idea that the singers actually purposely "created" the Others. Nope, doesn't sit well with me at all. Im not really on board with the killing word idea either.

There are ample indications in the text of the intimate relationship between the greenseers and the Others.  How then do you account for all the 'tree imagery' associated with the Others, hinting that the Others come from the trees?  Do you deny a relationship between the 'old gods' and the 'cold gods'?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

The 'grey-green' is very suggestive of greenseers.  Previously, I've summarised the symbolic associations of 'grey-green' on Crowfood Daughter's thread (Grey King fought Garth the Green):

Quote

The hyphenation of grey and green itself hints at a patchwork of identity, with the Grey King and the Green King representing two phases of the same cycle:  Old Age and Youth, Winter and Summer , Death and Life, Night and Day, Salt and Rock, Grim grey Reaper and bountiful green Fertility god, Cain and Abel, respectively.  The grey seems to be the 'corrupted' -- fire-transformed / ashen-- form of the green; except it's important to acknowledge that each contains within itself the future potential or lingering ghost of the other (yin-yang concept).

Besides the sea/see --  which is the main gist of it -- 'grey-green' is also more explicitly associated with greenseeing, skinchanging, the godswood and personified trees (e.g. the grey-green sentinels), the old gods and the underworld,  the drowned god and/or the storm god; the direwolves (e.g. Summer a grey wolf is 'Prince of the Green', Grey Wind rumbles as one with the Green Fork of the Trident, gray shadows emerge from a green wood); corpses (described as both rotting and blooming as they decay!) and 'undead' (e.g.the Others, Lady Stoneheart), characters like Bronn, Davos, Sandor Clegane, and the Manderlys (the 'leviathan' vs. 'kraken' locked in unending battle might be a grey-green echo...are krakens green/red sea dragons? vs. leviathans usually grey); the eyes of Littlefinger (also from Braavos with Titan sigil!) and Aurane Waters; magic, temptation, treachery, executions and rebirths.  And so much more!

 I think a human greenseer, not the Children, created the Others, originally in order to smite his own brother.  However, I'll admit I might be over-extrapolating from what I'm seeing in the Prologue.  If you're not happy with the idea of 'creating' or 'singing into existence,' how about invoking, summoning the demons, conjuring, as in some kind of, as @cgrav puts it, 'seance which got out of control' of the sorceror.  Think about Mirri Maz Dur summoning the shadows in the tent with her 'ululating wail' of doom.  Notice how there is always singing present, special words (i.e. a spell or charm), a magical incantation at these black magic rituals:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

Mirri Maz Duur's voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Dany's back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving.

Note, the chronological sequence:  first, the song; then the shadows appear.  Just like in the Prologue:  first, the 'whispered prayer' of the greenseer-figure; then the shadows emerge from the wood = Others.

Even in the example of the shattering of the sword, while I'll agree with you that Waymar's sword was already frosting over during the fight, notice that the clash of the swords was also accompanied by 'singing'...the Other's sword has its own 'frequency' or song, which I believe contributed to the overall frosting:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

Notice, the sword song is described as 'keening'.  This is a wordplay evoking mourning or wailing accompanying the loss of a loved one, after a battle perhaps, like a 'widow's wail,' which as it so happens is a sword!  Another who might 'keen' would be a 'lady forlorn', bemoaning the loss of a lover, which fittingly is also the name of a particularly sharp and bloodthirsty sword, famously almost having a mind of its own!  It will also not have escaped your notice, Mac, that 'keen' is a synonym for wicked sharp.  So, GRRM's language is suggesting that the sound itself was keen enough to cut through Waymar's ordinary sword -- like the special frequency of a lightsaber.  

What about the 'killing word' idea exactly do you not like?  There is a major wordplay running throughout the text, as Seams, among others has shown, equating 'swords' and 'words'.  How do you interpret 'the song of swords'?  I don't think this is just a fun poetic metaphor; the song in itself has power like a sword to cut, to shape, to kill.  A sword has a voice.  Isn't it remarked on that mute Ser Ilyn lets his sword 'do the talking'... Perhaps the voice/words/song, etc. is the weapon; that's what I'm suggesting.  Recall the advice of one of the best military generals around, Lord Tywin, that sometimes 'wars are won with quills and ravens'.  I can give you other examples if you like; there are enough to derail your thread for good!

Here's one more, for now, where the sound of the dragonbinder horn is configured as a weapon.  In fact, it ends up killing the one who produced it -- just like Will killed by the wighted Waymar.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

Sharp as a swordthrust, the sound of a horn split the air.

Bright and baneful was its voice, a shivering hot scream that made a man's bones seem to thrum within him. The cry lingered in the damp sea air: aaaaRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

All eyes turned toward the sound. It was one of Euron's mongrels winding the call, a monstrous man with a shaved head. Rings of gold and jade and jet glistened on his arms, and on his broad chest was tattooed some bird of prey, talons dripping blood.

aaaaRRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.

aaaaaaaRRREEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

It was a terrible sound, a wail of pain and fury that seemed to burn the ears. Aeron Damphair covered his, and prayed for the Drowned God to raise a mighty wave and smash the horn to silence, yet still the shriek went on and on. It is the horn of hell, he wanted to scream, though no man would have heard him. The cheeks of the tattooed man were so puffed out they looked about to burst, and the muscles in his chest twitched in a way that it made it seem as if the bird were about to rip free of his flesh and take wing. And now the glyphs were burning brightly, every line and letter shimmering with white fire. On and on and on the sound went, echoing amongst rhe howling hills behind them and across the waters of Nagga's Cradle to ring against the mountains of Great Wyk, on and on and on until it filled the whole wet world.

And when it seemed the sound would never end, it did.

The hornblower's breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left-Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too.

Again, we see the sequence of events:  first, the horn is blown; then, something 'takes wing' (analogous to the conjured shadows in Mirri's tent or Will's wood), causing someones death.

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

the Other sees the red blood on the floor.

The lead Other now identifies Waymar as a mere mortal man with regular steel so he then mocks him

I agree that when the Other sees the 'redness' of the blood, he can rule out Waymar being either an 'ice wight' like Coldhands -- who would have 'blood' of  dry, dusty black crystalline consistency -- or a 'fire wight' like Beric -- who would have thick, black sludgy blood, which would have additionally set anything metallic it contacted, e.g. armor or a sword, on fire.

P.S.  I would have thought you of all people would have taken instantly to the idea of using words as weapons!  

Quote

"My name is Brienne, not wench."

"What do you care what a monster calls you?"

"My name is Brienne," she repeated, dogged as a hound.

"Lady Brienne?" She looked so uncomfortable that Jaime sensed a weakness. "Or would Ser Brienne be more to your taste?" He laughed. "No, I fear not. You can trick out a milk cow in crupper, crinet, and chamfron, and bard her all in silk, but that doesn't mean you can ride her into battle."

"Cousin Jaime, please, you ought not speak so roughly." Under his cloak, Ser Cleos wore a surcoat quartered with the twin towers of House Frey and the golden lion of Lannister. "We have far to go, we should not quarrel amongst ourselves."

"When I quarrel I do it with a sword, coz. I was speaking to the lady. Tell me, wench, are all the women on Tarth as homely as you? I pity the men, if so. Perhaps they do not know what real women look like, living on a dreary mountain in the sea."

"Tarth is beautiful, " the wench grunted between strokes. "The Sapphire Isle, it's called. Be quiet, monster, unless you mean to make me gag you."

"She's rude as well, isn't she, coz?" Jaime asked Ser Cleos. "Though she has steel in her spine, I'll grant you. Not many men dare name me monster to my face." Though behind my back they speak freely enough, I have no doubt.

Ser Cleos coughed nervously. "Lady Brienne had those lies from Catelyn Stark, no doubt. The Starks cannot hope to defeat you with swords, ser, so now they make war with poisoned words."

They did defeat me with swords, you chinless cretin. Jaime smiled knowingly. Men will read all sorts of things into a knowing smile, if you let them. 

Note again the wordplay on 'quarrel' -- which can be both a sharp arrow and a sharp word.

Once again, when it comes to interpreting GRRM's coyly allusive prose, it's difficult to cleave the literal from the figurative intent.

[Macgregor of the North]

@ravenous reader

while I don't have anything against the word plays and word puns etc, they are clever . Seams has enlightened me loads of times on older threads and you certainly have a grasp on it. Without sounding rude though I do think it can be over stretched and looked into a bit far. I do apologise, it's just my view. 

My confusion as to the frosting of the blade is that it seemed as though you were clearly stating that the Others spoken words were what caused the sword to frost over and I was just a bit stunned because a fellow detail obsessive like yourself would have surely noticed that the frosting over occurs during the duel, before the Other makes a sound, before we even know it can talk. 

I personally don't think there is any other interpretation for that other than the continuous clashing of the Others sword against Waymars had gradually turned it to frost, ready to shatter. No words played any part whatsoever. 

As to me not liking your "killing word" thread,maybe that is harsh, I'll say I'm not really in agreement. I think I've shown why I don't agree in regards to the frosting of the sword. I'll explain further. 

I do not really see the idea of Will summoning the Others. It's clear they have been following them all day long. The two experienced Rangers feel it, and know it, but they simply can not defy their commander and race hellbent home to the Wall.

We know from Mance that they do not attack when the sun is still in the sky. We know from Tormund that they don't go away and simply stalk in the shadows, following.

To me personally it's clear the Others are with us in the scene that whole final day, watching and waiting for the trap to fulfill its purpose and for night to fall fully before they appear from out of the shadows. I simply don't agree that Wills whisper summoned them, sorry. 

On the singers creating the Others. Sorry, I thought you mean that the Cotf created them, not a human Greenseer, my misunderstanding. 

In any event I don't agree with that either. I personally view the Others and their Ice spiders as creatures of Ice made flesh. A direct balance to the Wyverns and Dragons etc that are Fire made flesh. 

I therefore view their "creation", or evolution or whatever as to be a circumstance of the same event. 

I believe the Dragons came from Asshai originally. I believe all Wyverns, Wyrms and Dragons originally appeared in that region of the world and I think there is a connection to the black moon rock that fell from the sky.

I think the Qartheen are nearly on the money. They claim that Dragons "came from the second moon". Well, not like they claim, like pouring forth from it as the tale tells us. But I think the cracking of the second moon and the pieces raining down on earth is the cause of the creation or evolution of these Fire creatures in Asshai. These magical Pieces fell in an already magical land and caused such magical upheaval I think this kick started this process. 

Now, balance. I believe balance is a big theme on this story. 

If this happened on the southern pole, I believe it's possible the same thing happened in the far Northern pole.

Have I proof that pieces of black moon rock fell in the Lands of Always winter? Not yet, I wonder if the next books will help me there. I did a thread once that attempted to show this through Symbolism, could post the link if you care to read it some time?. 

I cant help thinking these powerful magical rocks and stones could have possibly corrupted beings to become what we see now? There is a tale in the world book I like:

"Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

Could the Others have been an ancient tribe of first men corrupted by magic stones? Crazy thoughts right?.

I do think it's possible they originally tried to move south due to the Long Night though and it was a climate motivated migration. Obviously southern men weren't gonna be down with that shit so War and death ensued and the Others are viewed as the big bad. 

Fast forward thousands of years. I think the Others have there own Prophecy of a warrior of fire who will return to lead forces against them in war with Dragonsteel and Dragons to be used as weapons. This is why they have upped their activity, they wish to strike first for their own preservation. They thought they had "the one" in the Prologue but they weren't that lucky. 

They have since sent a stealth Wight mission to kill the leader of old foes the Nights Watch, they have tried to wipe out the watch at the fist, and they have been killing Wildlings massing a bigger Wight army. They wish to take the fight to the fire side first, before they can strike at them. 

To finish, I don't doubt there's a connection between the old species' such as the the Others and singers/Greenseers but im reluctant to believe it's a straight up - "they created them" sort of thing. 

Now, let's say the singers did something to upset the skies that sent a Comet crashing to the second moon, and indirectly caused the "creation" of the Others then I could get on board with that but the scene from the mummers screen adaptation is not something I'm impressed by. I think it's more complex than that. 

Ive rambled a bit here and it may seem a bit "out there" but these are my more recent thoughts on why/how the Others came to be. And we're wonderfully off topic haha.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@ravenous reader

while I don't have anything against the word plays and word puns etc, they are clever . Seams has enlightened me loads of times on older threads and you certainly have a grasp on it. Without sounding rude though I do think it can be over stretched and looked into a bit far. I do apologise, it's just my view. 

I agree with your concern and caution.  That's why I made the point at the end about how difficult it is to cleave the figurative from the literal in GRRM's prose.

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My confusion as to the frosting of the blade is that it seemed as though you were clearly stating that the Others spoken words were what caused the sword to frost over and I was just a bit stunned because a fellow detail obsessive like yourself would have surely noticed that the frosting over occurs during the duel, before the Other makes a sound, before we even know it can talk. 

Before the Other speaks, the sword 'does the talking'!   How can you tell whether it was the sound of the Other's sword or the touch of the sword which caused the frosting of Ser Waymar's sword, given that the 'anguished keening' and the touch occur simultaneously?  

For example, here as @Pain killer Jane once pointed out to me, Joffrey attacks Arya with both word and sword alike, attempting to break down her resistance.  So why should it be any different with the Other -- the icy sword and the icy word can both cause Waymar's sword to crack?  It's pretty suggestive that the Other's language is described as 'ice cracking' and then shortly after, Waymar's sword which has been turned to ice similarly 'cracks'!

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Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words.

- Sansa I, aGot

Let's go through the sequence of events methodically, paying special attention to the changing consistency of Ser Waymar's longsword:

At the beginning, before the arrival of the Others, the longsword is of such a consistency that it produces a smooth reflection of 'moonlight running' along the sword.  If the sword had been frosty at this point, it would not have been able to produce such a reflection, since once objects become frosted up, the resulting rough, matt finish tends to disrupts the reflective properties so that objects appear dull instead of shiny:

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“Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?” When Gared did not answer, Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it. Will doubted it had ever been swung in anger.

“The trees press close here,” Will warned. “That sword will tangle you up, m’lord. Better a knife.”

Later on, once in the presence of the Other, but still before the blades have touched, Waymar's sword has the same consistency as earlier.  Note that the same description is given, of 'moonlight running along the metal', although this time there seems to be a progression, since the moonlight is described as 'cold,' but not yet frosty!

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

From this we may conclude, that the mere presence of the Others -- without touch nor sound -- is enough to cool the sword, however not enough to shatter it.

Now, let's move on to the moment the swords meet:

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The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Note that on the meeting of the blades, the sound is emphasized by GRRM.  Because it does not sound like the usual steel ring a normal sword would make, either the sound must be coming from the sword of the Other and/or Waymar's sword transformed by the sword of the Other in some way.  GRRM makes a big deal of the 'high, thin sound at the edge of hearing', and this is not the only instance of his 'aural' preoccupation with the 'killing word' (yes I will keep using that term, until you all get it, in the end ).  This is more important than you might think; in fact, it happens to be the exact description of the voice of the three-eyed-crow on intruding on Bran's consciousness:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. "Help me," he said.

I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

Again, the same pattern:  first, the sound; then the touch.

The same pattern can be identified in Jon's 'three-eyed sapling' dream.  First the sound of the voice ('the silent shout'); and then the touch.

Anyway, let's move back to the Prologue.  After a 'flurry' of blows -- of sound and touch -- finally Ser Waymar's sword can be observed to be frosted over.  So, we've gone from a 'cold' sword in the presence of the Other, to a 'frosted' one following touch and/or sound of the Other's sword.  However, at this point the sword is still intact and shows no sign of shattering.

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Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

Then, Waymar is injured.  The blood is red -- proof he's not a wight of any kind, neither 'fire' nor 'ice.'  And then -- ladies and gentlemen -- for the coup de grace:  THE OTHER FINALLY SPEAKS!

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Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

And then on the very next blow the sword shatters!  So, I'm saying that the 'ice cracking' words of the Other delivered the final blow in terms of disrupting the consistency of the sword.  (ETA: that's why the final parry can be as 'lazy' as the Other likes, because the words have already done most of the work!)

So, to recap the progression:

Initially, without close proximity of Other -- Waymar's sword is like water, with the moonlight smoothly 'running' along it in unbroken reflection.

Then:

1)  presence of Other -- > 'cold'

2)  touch and/or sound of Other's sword -- > 'frost'

3) Other speaks -- > 'shatters' like ice

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Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles.

Then, we have another indication of just how deadly that Other language is really, in the description of the companions who then on some unknown signal (probably the 'red' blood ruling out invincible wight status) all join the 'cold butchery', particularly their voices which are described as 'sharp as icicles'.  They 'slaughter' Waymar with their 'laughter,' not just their 'pale blades'! 

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Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

So that's my interpretation for the nonce.  However, I do understand this degree of wordplay in which I'm engaging is a matter of taste.  Just as I respect @Dorian Martell's son's prerogative not to interpret 'Bran's voice on the wind' as literally as I (and you?) do!

I've written a lot, so I'll address your other points in my subsequent post.