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A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.


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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

For example, here as @Pain killer Jane once pointed out to me, Joffrey attacks Arya with both word and sword alike, attempting to break down her resistance.  So why should it be any different with the Other -- the icy sword and the icy word can both cause Waymar's sword to crack?  It's pretty suggestive that the Other's language is described as 'ice cracking' and then shortly after, Waymar's sword which has been turned to ice similarly 'cracks'!

Wonderful! Lest not forget our bible. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. God creates the whole world with the Word. Later on in Matthew Christ performs the miracle of resurrection using The Word when the centurion says he is not worthy to have Jesus under his roof. Throughout the bible we see "The Word" as a powerful force...a force with the power to both create, destroy and resurrect. And lets not forget Paul's letter to the Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

Aside from the biblical stuff there is a whole world of voice being a weapon from the metaphor where one uses their voice to attack someones mind (think Grima Wormtounge and the King of Rohan) to a vow made (for instance, nights watch vows) which both protect the speaker while at the same time imprisoning him to Spells where using the magical words can do anything from open doors to conjure flames etc etc etc to  God laying waste to Babylon with his voice.

 

Need to catch up on rest of thread to really be able to contribute in a helpful way, but thought I would bring a little bible in when I saw voices/swords.

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43 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Wonderful! Lest not forget our bible. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. God creates the whole world with the Word. Later on in Matthew Christ performs the miracle of resurrection using The Word when the centurion says he is not worthy to have Jesus under his roof. Throughout the bible we see "The Word" as a powerful force...a force with the power to both create, destroy and resurrect. And lets not forget Paul's letter to the Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

Aside from the biblical stuff there is a whole world of voice being a weapon from the metaphor where one uses their voice to attack someones mind (think Grima Wormtounge and the King of Rohan) to a vow made (for instance, nights watch vows) which both protect the speaker while at the same time imprisoning him to Spells where using the magical words can do anything from open doors to conjure flames etc etc etc to  God laying waste to Babylon with his voice.

 

Need to catch up on rest of thread to really be able to contribute in a helpful way, but thought I would bring a little bible in when I saw voices/swords.

Thanks @YOVMO :).  Those are all great examples!  I would love it if you contributed on my 'Killing Word' thread (an allusion to the 'magical thinking' of the materialized-thought weapon in the movie 'Dune').  We will probably derail Macgregor's thread if we pursue our passion for this idea over here!  I was actually thinking of you in particular over there when I wrote up my thoughts, with respect to your and Seams' excellent idea of 'piercing the hymenal gate' (those Saturday mornings you spent lying in bed, looking up the word 'hymen' in the etymological tome, have paid dividends ;)) with 'I am the sword' -- which is a figurative sword made of literal words!

Your idea about protecting the speaker whilst simultaneously imprisoning him is interesting...I think that's what we see unfold in the Prologue.  Will's words come back to haunt him when the wighted Waymar rises and strangles him -- literally crushing his voice box; so the words -- the poisonous ones I'm postulating he uttered against his brother (summoning the Others plus holding his treacherous silence) -- figuratively stick in his throat!

That 'boomerang' trajectory -- the karmic offer that cannot be refused -- is fascinating.  I see it in ASOIAF repeatedly, where the binder becomes bound (hoisted by his own petard), the hunter becomes the hunted, the curser accursed, etc.

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I personally don't think there is any other interpretation for that other than the continuous clashing of the Others sword against Waymars had gradually turned it to frost, ready to shatter. No words played any part whatsoever. 

I hope I have demonstrated that 'words' (among which I include more generally all magical sounds, songs, etc.) may very well have played a part, and put a slight dent in your over-confidence in this matter.  ;)

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As to me not liking your "killing word" thread,maybe that is harsh, I'll say I'm not really in agreement. I think I've shown why I don't agree in regards to the frosting of the sword. I'll explain further. 

No probs.  I don't mind if we disagree occasionally -- we'll always agree on the 'future' intruding on the 'past' irrevocably!

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I do not really see the idea of Will summoning the Others.

I get where you're coming from.  My aim in the 'killing word' thread was, as I explained in the intro, to approach the Prologue more symbolically, as an allegory of a possible archetypal conflict that may have taken place among a trio of brothers, one and or more of them greenseers, at the very heart of the saga.  In fact, I specifically view the Prologue, as I explained in my thread, as an allegory for how and by whom the Long Night was triggered.  Will is the trickster greenseer in the analogy who summoned the Others (or 'meteors,' if that's your predilection!)

The giveaway for me was the word 'whispered' -- which I've identified in my many 'obsessively detailed' readings as a loaded 'greenseer-coded' word.  While sticking to a tree (you should be thinking 'weirwood' by now), Will 'whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood.'  Who else are these nameless, faceless gods but the Others?

Notice that as soon as he utters the prayer from the tree, the Others emerge from the wood on cue.  Similarly, no sooner does the Other speak, the sword shatters on the very next 'lazy' parry.

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It's clear they have been following them all day long. The two experienced Rangers feel it, and know it, but they simply can not defy their commander and race hellbent home to the Wall.

We know from Mance that they do not attack when the sun is still in the sky. We know from Tormund that they don't go away and simply stalk in the shadows, following.

To me personally it's clear the Others are with us in the scene that whole final day, watching and waiting for the trap to fulfill its purpose and for night to fall fully before they appear from out of the shadows. I simply don't agree that Wills whisper summoned them, sorry. 

Again, I'm reading this as an allegory (the three Baratheon brothers in their tit-for-tat usurpation contest springs to mind).  The Others are a projection of Will's deepest, darkest, most hateful fantasies -- born of his envy, resentment and anger towards the 'brother' who has been relentlessly mocking the other two, despite his relative ranging inexperience.  By breaking faith with his brother, Will invites in the Others -- or perhaps Waymar did that via his mocking.  But I see what you mean by the problems of literal transposition of my more psychological deconstruction of events.

I see the relationship of Will the greenseer to the Others the way I see Stannis's shadow-assassination of his brother Renly.  At the end, the 'shadow did it' is the account given; however, Brienne, Catelyn, Davos and Stannis all know who really summoned and sent that shadow against his brother.  The Others are the scapegoats -- or perhaps they're the weapons harnessed for human consumption-- caught up in a human war.  Likewise, I found the quote interesting in which Stannis jokes that there are so many slanderous rumors circulating that soon they will say that he 'magicked himself into the boar' that killed his brother Robert.  Like the Other, the boar is the scapegoat.  This got me wondering whether Renly might have orchestrated his brother's untimely demise.  After all, shortly after Robert's death Renly seizes his opportunity to leapfrog to the top.  In the same way, this dynamic is played out when the furtive Will makes his way down off the tree, in order to retrieve the spoils of war, which are also the symbols of a king's power:  namely, his magical (lightning-struck) sword, and his sable coat:

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His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. "Bet he killed them all himself, he did," Gared told the barracks over wine, "twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior." They had all shared the laugh.

'his crowning glory, thick and black and soft as sin'

Crown = King

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On the singers creating the Others. Sorry, I thought you mean that the Cotf created them, not a human Greenseer, my misunderstanding. 

In any event I don't agree with that either. I personally view the Others and their Ice spiders as creatures of Ice made flesh. A direct balance to the Wyverns and Dragons etc that are Fire made flesh. 

I therefore view their "creation", or evolution or whatever as to be a circumstance of the same event. 

Perhaps this 'same event' involved humans waging a war against each other using sorcery -- sorcerous 'killing words' to be exact!

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I believe the Dragons came from Asshai originally. I believe all Wyverns, Wyrms and Dragons originally appeared in that region of the world and I think there is a connection to the black moon rock that fell from the sky.

I believe this 'black moon rock that fell from the sky' did not come down by chance.  A human greenseer used words in order to tinker around with the celestial bodies (that's why they're always singing and dancing -- the singing and dancing is what directly elicits the 'demons', the 'dragons', the 'Others', etc.)

The particular 'dialect' of the True Tongue or song of the earth used in this instance is 'the song of stone'!

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On 21/04/2017 at 0:25 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

(This is the time where Ned is praying)

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

GRRM clearly tells us Brans "voice" was the whisper on the wind and the rustling of the leaves so I believe it's set in stone as what caused Ned to look long at the tree and frown at it. 


So let me just jump in here and engage in a little advocacy for the devil if you would, as I do tend to concur with your interpretation of this. However, when I was reading this quote, and then your comment right after it, I noticed you used the determiner, 'the' instead of 'a' as is used in the actual quote; Which for some reason caught my attention. It seems to me that if GRRM had used 'the' it would be quite straight forward, however the use of 'a' makes this comment seem a little more ambiguous to me.

This is more of a question than an assertion, as I am by no means an expert in linguistics. Perhaps @ravenous reader would like to offer her opinion on this, as I would say she has as impressive of an understanding and command of the language as I've seen.

Now it can be argued that a whisper in the wind would be inaudible, as well, a rustling in the leaves would be unnoticeable - just a noise that would blend in. Could this not be a poetic way for GRRM to say that despite his efforts, Bran's attempt to reach out to his father was unsuccessful? And his voice was not what caused the wind, but was essentially drowned out by it.

Ps: oh and I guess as I can't be considered a 'lurker' anymore, it should be ok for me to comment on this. I must say that I find both sides of this little spat being had on this thread to be utterly hilarious. As I see it, there were NO winners.

And MacGregor, obviously there is a history there between you and MD, so I'm not going to pass judgment there. However, I must say, you going after @Bonkers as you did was uncalled for. He/she was clearly trying to be friendly with you, and only trying to make light of the situation, and really didn't deserve the response that you gave.

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:


So let me just jump in here and engage in a little advocacy for the devil if you would, as I do tend to concur with your interpretation of this. However, when I was reading this quote, and then your comment right after it, I noticed you used the determiner, 'the' instead of 'a' as is used in the actual quote; Which for some reason caught my attention. It seems to me that if GRRM had used 'the' it would be quite straight forward, however the use of 'a' makes this comment seem a little more ambiguous to me.

This is more of a question than an assertion, as I am by no means an expert in linguistics. Perhaps @ravenous reader would like to offer her opinion on this, as I would say she has as impressive of an understanding and command of the language as I've seen.

Now it can be argued that a whisper in the wind would be inaudible, as well, a rustling in the leaves would be unnoticeable - just a noise that would blend in. Could this not be a poetic way for GRRM to say that despite his efforts, Bran's attempt to reach out to his father was unsuccessful? And his voice was not what caused the wind, but was essentially drowned out by it.

Yes, I agree; that's an astute observation.  I even pointed that out on the thread previous to this one dealing with the same subject (which blew up after Mac and DM traded barbs, and my attempts to whip them into shape yielded nought...;)) before we relocated here. 

Because the 'rustle' of the greenseer would get lost amongst all the other background rustling, it's very conceivable that the 'message' of the greenseer would get drowned out and not be transmitted with 'high fidelity.'  That's why it's so significant that when Bran finally succeeds in articulating his message to someone (albeit in the present not past timeframe), this occurs on a 'windless night' (with Theon at the heart tree).  In other words, somehow Bran either uses the ambient conditions to his advantage, or alternatively 'dials down the white noise', so that his message can come through clearly.  In TWOW, Theon explicitly relates his perspective (which we ought to trust, unless one holds with the view that he is psychotic) as to how the leaves were moving despite the absence of wind, and that they were 'rustling his name'.  So, what I think has occurred here is that one greenseer, Bran, was able to take sole possession of the tree without any competing voices -- like an operatic solo without a chorus to muffle her words!  Analogously, Bran suppresses Hodor's own voice in order to take charge of it and Hodor's body for his own (abominable) uses.  Hodor = weirwood = dragon for symbolic purposes.

Whether this is possible to achieve in the past remains to be seen.  Although I think it should be possible for Bran (he ends up doing everything people caution him not to do) and he truly does embody the Promethean idiom 'the sky's the limit', in so many ways; I think it's inconclusive at present, to be fair.

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Ps: oh and I guess as I can't be considered a 'lurker' anymore, I hope it's ok for me to comment on this, but I must say that I find both sides of this little spat being had on this thread to be utterly hilarious. As I see it, there were NO winners.

Kind of like on 'the other thread' where we do not tolerate irony...:P

-- although you may be gaining the edge over there ever so slightly (but maybe I'm biased, since I do love those 'mingy' direwolves, and anyone who harms one of them, even verbally, is on my watchlist for a good tongue lashing)!  

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Wonderful! Lest not forget our bible. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. God creates the whole world with the Word. Later on in Matthew Christ performs the miracle of resurrection using The Word when the centurion says he is not worthy to have Jesus under his roof. Throughout the bible we see "The Word" as a powerful force...a force with the power to both create, destroy and resurrect. And lets not forget Paul's letter to the Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

Aside from the biblical stuff there is a whole world of voice being a weapon from the metaphor where one uses their voice to attack someones mind (think Grima Wormtounge and the King of Rohan) to a vow made (for instance, nights watch vows) which both protect the speaker while at the same time imprisoning him to Spells where using the magical words can do anything from open doors to conjure flames etc etc etc to  God laying waste to Babylon with his voice.

 

Need to catch up on rest of thread to really be able to contribute in a helpful way, but thought I would bring a little bible in when I saw voices/swords.

Thanks @YOVMO :).  Those are all great examples!  I would love it if you contributed on my 'Killing Word' thread

 

I most certainly will get to killing word, but it must wait for saturday when I can give it my full attention. This is going to be a good one :)

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Saturday mornings you spent lying in bed, looking up the word 'hymen' in the etymological tome, have paid dividends ;)) with 'I am the sword' -- which is a figurative sword made of literal words!

Oh don't get me started on Swords and Hymens and the fresh blood that comes from a fresh piercing and lands on the virgin snow.....oh we are going to go..........I can't believe I'm saying this........deep on this one.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Your idea about protecting the speaker whilst simultaneously imprisoning him is interesting...I think that's what we see unfold in the Prologue.

I know it sounds nuts but if I had to list what I believe to be the top three most important sections the Prologue would be in there.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 I see it in ASOIAF repeatedly, where the binder becomes bound

As do i. I feel like it is the price to bind. Only death can pay for life and only being bound can pay for binding.

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

We will probably derail Macgregor's thread if we pursue our passion for this idea over here!

you know how I HATE derailing threads with extemporaneous, scatalogical and borderline lunatic tangents regarding swords, etymology and the history of literature and philosophy....:) 

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I win. Again. Ok, lets tally how many times you mention me in replies to other people

23 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Your spot on CP, I'm not but here you are fighting big bad DMs battles for him lol.

There are three people, nope sorry, two now because thelittledragonthatcould gave up and left the forums, that have taken a personal dislike to me and let it show on these forums. I find it absolutely hilarious watching you all get in your feelings and resorting to personal attacks because you simply can not control yourselves. 

You Cleganes Pup were once just like DM and used to follow my threads around like a lost puppy but have since stopped commenting, although never stopped following evidently. And it seems you haven't 100% stopped commenting either. 

You know what the really funny part is. You guys actually seem to have such strong feelings toward me that I wonder if it bothers you in your day to day life. Me on the other hand, as harsh as this sounds, I could not care a fig for any of you three. You are simply three pictures on a screen that make words appear from time to time. I don't like you, or dislike you, I simply do not care about you. Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely wonderful people on here with brilliant attitudes who's opinions I value. Anyway, back on track.

You would never ever catch me come on a thread any of you begin because I simply could not care. I'll pass it by without a second glance because I'm in control of my feelings and actions and wouldn't want any ill feeling on someone else's thread. 

You guys though lol, will continue to follow me around and project your dislike because... well, who cares why because it's you and it's your life not mine, your free to do what you like. 

But seriously, if you can't handle the chat over here without getting angry or in your feelings, think about staying away girls/guys because life and this forum is to be enjoyed. 

What will likely happen is that you will continue though and you, just like littledragonthatcould will just give up "one day", which I'm easy with and wouldn't lose sleep over, but DMs. No, he's got a forum death wish and is on only one course it seems. His third suspension looms I fear because he simply can not control his anger and let's it seep into his posts, and that my friend will be his downfall. 

Btw, if you care to weigh in on the topic of Bran, and what made Ned react at the tree, then by all means pick up where your buddy gave up and let's go there. Offers there, but remember, be nice! (said in a Dalton, Roadhouse voice).

That's 3 

16 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Another lurker unearthed lol. Where do you lot come from. Would you perhaps care to take your best shot at the book topic at hand and take up where Dorian Martells son gave up?. I'd love to hear your opinion, provided you have one that is? I assume you do since you have taken the time to create an account and elevate yourself from lurker to poster. Let's be hearing it then?. 

There's another 

16 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The amount of posts you have means nothing to me, you can have two or twenty thousand and I wouldn't even notice. Lol, we all have lives away from here, what's your point? Now you seem sensitive. Nobody implied you never had a life. 

Look, i love this topic here though, and actually encourage people to discuss it. But, you actually have to come on and discuss it lol know what I mean?. 

If you come on the thread, at least have the intention to discuss the topic no? Isn't that what you started your account for? To discuss THE BOOKS? Or are you another Dorian Martells son who doesn't start threads but goes on others threads just to play around? I'm genuinely curious.

Yet another

15 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have always viewed the languages as akin to each other in a sense and I've speculated that the Singers can converse with the Others, which in a round about way means that now Bran is wedded to that Godhood and all their knowledge, could he also learn to comprehend the speech of the Others like Brandon the builder learned to comprehend the speech of the Singers? Interesting to think so huh?

DM is done, he hasn't been able to answer simple questions for two threads, instead he resorts to insults and crude comments about homosexuality and stuff, no wonder he has been suspended twice. He is a done man, soundly beaten in our saga. 

Aaaaaaand another 

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

On this duel he is. Utterly defeated. Resorting to insults, going silent on the matter and finally resorting to denial is the last desperate actions of a done man trying to save face. Hahaha I agree with that bit though, we will meet Dorian martells family tree when he returns from each suspension lol.

Christ, this just keeps going. It's actually a little creepy now. Seven mentions of me. All to other people, never replying to me directly. You are officially obsessed with. You literally can't let me go, even when I stay away. You need me. :D
 The seven mentions is very significant. The faith of westeros worships the seven. I think this means you are trying to say I am your god, and you worship me! For that I am flattered. I am just some random book fan on the internet. I never thought I would be elevated to someone's god. I now forgive you for all the mean things you said about me (notice how I never cried to the mods, learn from me my little worshiper) and all the times you antagonized me for no other reason than I disagreed with you over something foolish that has no bearing on the story, and never will. I could go on and on about all the times you referred to our interactions as a duel, and how you continue to rant about how I am defeated, but like Beric, or Cat, I am still here, and will continue to be here Always. the worst part is, we even agree about things. We have a mutual disdain for the theory that  the CTOF creating the others. I wish we could have come together over that earlier, instead of you spewing vitriol over a disagreement.
But none of that matters now that I realize that you literally worship me. Carry on my devoted son, and may every mention of my name bless you on every aspect of your journey, from the battles to come, to you reliving your dear memories of all our past interactions. 
Bless you my son. Your future is bright as long as you carry me in your heart forever. And I know you always will 

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@Darkstream @ravenous reader

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

First up, my personal interchanging of the words "a" and "the" are not worth nitpicking over. I have been quoting these pieces of text for longer than I can remember and I rarely retell them perfectly by my own hand, unless it's a copy and paste quote.

What is certain is GRRM has placed Brans voice there at the scene as whispering winds and rustling leaves hasnt he? Brans voice is playing a part in the scene where Ned is, and Brans voice is rooted in the present (or future from Neds angle) and Neds reaction is in the past (or present if we're sitting with Ned). Perspective.

Cause and effect over different points in "time" yes?. You guys agree yeah.

I personally don't think it's any clearer for us than this particular quote that Brans voice from his point in "time" has materialised at Neds point in "time" and Ned has reacted to it. The fact it never came across clearly as Brans voice is irrelevant. It proves that in this story, it is possible for cause and effect outside the strictures of time. This is merely priming us for future parts of Brans arc.

All we are supposed to take from this, and Bloodravens warnings is that no matter what Bran does, he will never be able to change the past, ever. If he does co tinue to try and meddle, and he will, he can only find he was the cause of it. The only cause of it there ever was. I'll throw all my eggs in the same basket and declare right now that this is where Brans story is heading and will play a big part in how he acts toward the end of the story and the decisions he makes. Great sadness ahead for Bran. 

By the way if I'm wrong, and we're all still here, I'll hold my hand up and admit it. That is not a daunting task to me like it is to some folks, when I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. I don't believe I am here though.

 

 

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@Dorian Martell's son your back! Or is it the grandson? 

Are you perhaps ready to resume our discussion? Were you feeling left out. I'm ready to go. Let's hear your stance on our long debate. What have you got to fear? Why don't you make clear your stance and be done with it?. And if you like I'll even discuss the origin of the Others with you since you seem so keen to do that with me.

Lets clear this up first, so.... shall we?

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@Dorian Martell's son

The thread took off without you (sorry) so there's a lot I need to go back to, but I'll make time for my favourite :D

What I need from you is a straight answer that you still think that both times Ned reacted to the tree, you believe that both times were an absolute fluke and that both times were absolutely nothing to do with Bran. This is your stance yes?. 

And also, your previous stance was that GRRM doesn't and wouldn't used tired old tropes or plot devices. You still believe this?. 

Also, do you think GRRM is simply writhing a fantasy story and only that?. He wouldn't incorporate any other genre into it to make things interesting would he?. 

These are not hard questions mate. Now you are back, let's clear these up yeah? You can... can't you? Prove your here to discuss the books, were all here for ya.

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24 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son your back! Or is it the grandson? 

Are you perhaps ready to resume our discussion? Were you feeling left out. I'm ready to go. Let's hear your stance on our long debate. What have you got to fear? Why don't you make clear your stance and be done with it?. And if you like I'll even discuss the origin of the Others with you since you seem so keen to do that with me.

Lets clear this up first, so.... shall we?

That would be your lord and savior, but I am not firm on titles. That was a very quick reply.  your god is pleased at your attentiveness.
Now, part of your faith in me in admitting to yourself that you already know my stance and how clear I am on how you are wrong. I know my attention is what you need/desire/crave, but repeating what has been said over multiple threads will not make you right, or even close to correct. I suffest you go back over previous threads and quote them together to continue our discussion. you will find them all enlightening, and that will reinforce exactly why I am correct.

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son

The thread took off without you (sorry) so there's a lot I need to go back to, but I'll make time for my favourite :D

I always knew I was your favorite. Keep on  :bowdown:me. 

23 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

What I need from you is a straight answer that you still think that both times Ned reacted to the tree, you believe that both times were an absolute fluke and that both times were absolutely nothing to do with Bran. This is your stance yes?. 

I have said this before, but I will relent for you now that you worship me as your rightful god.
The first time was a fluke. He didn't react the second time. He was frowning while praying to the heart tree  because he brought his sister's son by the prince to his home and had to make his wife believe her dishonored her to protect Lyanna and Rhaegar's son from king bob. His only hope was that Jon and Robb would grow up as brothers and his secret would never be revealed. Even bran states unequivocally that his dad  cannot see him.  

27 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

<things you are aware of yet keep asking>

why must you badger your god to repeat things you know are true in your heart?

31 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

These are not hard questions mate. Now you are back, let's clear these up yeah? You can... can't you? Prove you're here to discuss the books, were all here for ya.

Your god has been quite clear repeatedly over several threads. It is only unclear to you, by choice,  and even your rightful god cannot make everything clear if you refuse to see it, which you clearly (get it?) do.  Clarity is a journey for you to undertake my son. Take that journey soon, for all of us. Additionally, I have corrected your spelling. 

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@ravenous reader

I'll keep this bit just for the sword talk. 

Your words here:

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So when the Other speaks (as Will's proxy) to Waymar, I believe it is the 'ice cracking' magical speech which actually cracks Waymar's sword -- or at least compromises its structural integrity to the point that it froze over,

To keep this short. You believe that it was the Others words that sound like cracking Ice that shattered the sword?. But! You have doubt I see because you say "or at least". You say:

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- or at least compromises its structural integrity to the point that it froze over,

Well, we can rule that out because absolutely, 100% there is no chance that the spoken words from the Other caused the blade to frost over. That happened during the duel where no words from the Other were spoken. Let's leave that, its dead now.

So we are left with your belief that after the blade had frosted over from the duel, regardless of if it was "the sound" of the swords, or the "contact" of the swords, (I say contact), you think it's the Others mocking words that then cause the blade to shatter?. 

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And then on the very next blow the sword shatters!  So, I'm saying that the 'ice cracking' words of the Other delivered the final blow in terms of disrupting the consistency of the sword.  (ETA: that's why the final parry can be as 'lazy' as the Other likes, because the words have already done most of the work!)

In my view though, the consistency of the sword has already been disrupted. It has turned to frost from the clashing, there is a momentary pause of clashing, the Other wounds Waymar, and it shatters on the next clash. I simply think the Other mocks and parries lazily because it sees the blade has frosted which it wasn't expecting, and it sees Waymar is a normal mortal boy. 

So it maybe says something like:

"insolent boy! You are no warrior of fire! A mere boy you are who bleeds and can die, and wielding a blade which has no fire, see how it frosts! And now, you die."

Or something. Cue lazy parry, shattering sword (the official signal) and they all finish him.

I agree the Prologue is rammed with greatness but on this, that's as far as I care to interpret that bit. I genuinely don't believe GRRM has made that particular part any deeper than that. We can disagree though, no hard feelings :D

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@Dorian Martell's son well at least your, sort of, discussing the books now in your own strange way haha. Good, that's good.

In you're (lol) usual demeanour, you have side stepped a couple things but I'll let them slide and focus on what you found the courage to actually address.

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The first time was a fluke. He didn't react the second time. He was frowning while praying to the heart tree  because he brought his sister's son by the prince to his home and had to make his wife believe her dishonored her to protect Lyanna and Rhaegar's son from king bob. His only hope was that Jon and Robb would grow up as brothers and his secret would never be revealed. Even bran states unequivocally that his dad  cannot see him.  

Ok, the first time, define fluke. Why do you think it was a "fluke", and what do you even mean by that term?. Elaborate please. Do you think the wind was already whispering and the leaves were already  rustling is that it??. Well, if that was the case then why would Ned turn so suddenly to the tree and ask who's there if the wind was already whispering and the leaves were already rustling?. And I'm sure Ned has sat in front of the Heart tree ALOT of times, but this time he actually thinks somebody is behind him where the tree is. Tell me your stance on how that is a "fluke".

"Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.
"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …...

Ok the second time. 


"… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

Neds head is bowed praying. You say he was frowning at the Heart tree while praying. How can you be certain Ned was frowning while praying? Neds head is bowed while praying, then after Brans words he looks up and frowns long at the tree. A reaction indeed. 

I do not think Ned would frown at the tree for a long time because he had to tell Cat a lie. He has never dishonoured her or done any physical harm. He told a lie that's all, a lie that had honor. Just like when he comforts Arya and makes her feel better because her own lie was "not without honor". He obviously does not view a lie as too harsh, in the right circumstances. 

I don't think Ned is going to be as anguished as you think at this. Especially in front of the Old Gods. They know the truth, and he knows it. He did the right thing. His nephew and beloved sisters son will live, but his wife that he hardly knows will have to suffer some because he had to lie to her. I don't think there is any reason for Ned to feel so sorrowful and regretful over that to the point of him stopping mid prayer, and looking at the tree for a long time and frowning  as if he can no longer finish the words.

Ned frowns lots of times in the story when confused or vexed but im not sure he does it much when feeling sorrowful or regretful. 

If we look at Brans words though and how the author tells us that "Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves", then the  sudden cut off from talking and the stare up at the tree from the bowed head position makes sense. It's a confused reaction, to Brans action.

 

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2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Darkstream @ravenous reader

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

First up, my personal interchanging of the words "a" and "the" are not worth nitpicking over. I have been quoting these pieces of text for longer than I can remember and I rarely retell them perfectly by my own hand, unless it's a copy and paste quote.

I fear your defensive disposition has led you astray. My comment was in no way meant to nitpick. You had just provided the passage verbatim, so it's not as if I was accusing you of mis-representation - it was quite obvious that you were paraphrasing. Like I alluded to above, it was reading your comment directly after the quote that made me consider this. You know, kind of a 'cause and effect.'

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What is certain is GRRM has placed Brans voice there at the scene as whispering winds and rustling leaves hasnt he? 

Cause and effect over different points in "time" yes?. You guys agree yeah.

I personally don't think it's any clearer for us than this particular quote that Brans voice from his point in "time" has materialised at Neds point in "time" and Ned has reacted to it. The fact it never came across clearly as Brans voice is irrelevant. It proves that in this story, it is possible for cause and effect outside the strictures of time. This is merely priming us for future parts of Brans arc.

While I would say what you propose is plausible, I do take issue with the bolded. What you put forth as certainty and prove, I find to be very ambiguous.

Let's take a look at more of that passage than just the one line for some context.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

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. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Now let me modify this passage to remove Bran, and what you would posit is the cause, and see if it still makes sense.

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"… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood.

Ned's actions here seem completely natural and plausible, even though what you claim to be the cause of those actions has been removed.

It is by no way certain that Bran had any effect on the events that took place in this scene.

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

I fear your defensive disposition has led you astray. My comment was in no way meant to nitpick. You had just provided the passage verbatim, so it's not as if I was accusing you of mis-representation - it was quite obvious that you were paraphrasing. Like I alluded to above, it was reading your comment directly after the quote that made me consider this. You know, kind of a 'cause and effect.'

While I would say what you propose is plausible, I do take issue with the bolded. What you put forth as certainty and prove, I find to be very ambiguous.

Let's take a look at more of that passage than just the one line for some context.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Now let me modify this passage to remove Bran, and what you would posit is the cause, and see if it still makes sense.

Ned's actions here seem completely natural and plausible, even though what you claim to be the cause of those actions has been removed.

It is by no way certain that Bran had any effect on the events that took place in this scene.

You really think that?.

I have never personally thought that at all and view it as Brans actions interrupt Ned as he is about to say more... but he is distracted by the sound Brans voice generates, and feels something amiss, like he does when he was cleaning Ice that day and turned to ask who's there, but this time he looks up at the tree and frowns at it for a long time. 

Ive never been able to fathom why people think that he would pray to his Old Gods asking them to help and make sure these things happen, then suddenly look up and frown at the tree for a long time. 

If he was to have asked for his lady wife to forgive with a full stop and then looked up with GRRM providing a word that described his feeling of "wish", "need" "desire", "yearning", "want" or "desperation", then yes I could get on board but no, he frowns. A frown is not a word I think GRRM would use in this instance, it's too powerful and only serves to make me think something has jolted him from his prayer and he looks to the tree to try to figure out what's happening. 

This all points to me being personally certain. Does that please you more? I am certain, instead of what is certain. 

Out of curiosity. Do you share my view?. Do you agree with my interpretation?.

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1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You really think that?.

I have never personally thought that at all and view it as Brans actions interrupt Ned as he is about to say more... but he is distracted by the sound Brans voice generates, and feels something amiss, like he does when he was cleaning Ice that day and turned to ask who's there, but this time he looks up at the tree and frowns at it for a long time. 

Ive never been able to fathom why people think that he would pray to his Old Gods asking them to help and make sure these things happen, then suddenly look up and frown at the tree for a long time. 

If he was to have asked for his lady wife to forgive with a full stop and then looked up with GRRM providing a word that described his feeling of "wish" or "need" or "desperation", then yes I could get on board but no, he frowns. A frown is not a word I think GRRM would use in this instance, it's too powerful and only serves to make me think something has jolted him from his prayer and he looks to the tree to try to figure out what's happening. 

This all points to me being personally certain. Does that please you more? I am certain, instead of what is certain. 

Out of curiosity. Do you share my view?. Do you agree with my interpretation?.

I agree that your interpretation is certainly plausible, and as I said in my original post, I do tend to lean in this direction. However I am in no way certain, or feel like anything you have presented can be claimed as proof.

Ned is recalling what we can reasonably assume is a  sorrowing and regretful action or decision. I think the interruption in his thought could be explained by his reluctance to even want to think about whatever it is that he was about to ask forgiveness for; Whether due to guilt, denial, or that it's just to painful or shaming to think of. Basically, he suppresses this thought and just looks up at the tree in an expression of disgust or shame in himself as he had compromised his honor, thus his frown.

So yes, I really think this passage could work fine, even with no interaction on Bran's part.

Let me ask you, if he was reacting to Bran, why the frown? This doesn't seem like an appropriate response to me. I would think he would have a curious or quizzical expression if he had thought he heard something. Don't you agree?
 

@ravenous reader

Ha! Here I go again, trying to get a handle on them ellipses. ;)

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

I agree that your interpretation is certainly plausible, and as I said in my original post, I do tend to lean in this direction. However I am in no way certain, or feel like anything you have presented can be claimed as proof.

Ned is recalling what we can reasonably assume is a  sorrowing and regretful action or decision. I think the interruption in his thought could be explained by his reluctance to even want to think about whatever it is that he was about to ask forgiveness for; Whether due to guilt, denial, or that it's just to painful or shaming to think of. Basically, he suppresses this thought and just looks up at the tree in an expression of disgust or shame in himself as he had compromised his honor, thus his frown.

So yes, I really think this passage could work fine, even with no interaction on Bran's part.

Let me ask you, if he was reacting to Bran, why the frown? This doesn't seem like an appropriate response to me. I would think he would have a curious or quizzical expression if he had thought he heard something. Don't you agree?
 

That sounds to me like you read it the exact way I do on page.

Ok let's analyse Ned. We know, and he knows he has never ever cheated on Cat, please don't open up a can of worms by disputing that lol. So he is not sorrowful or regretful over that. It's that he lied to Cat, saying he slept with another and fathered a bastard and she must accept that he will live with them. He never done anything physically wrong. Infact he has done the right thing. The Gods know this, and so does he. Where does this deep anguish come in that causes him to stop what he's saying and frown long at the tree. He's in the right. Yes he told a lie, but for a good cause, and yes his wife that he doesn't even know will suffer some, but his nephew will live and Lyannas shade will be happy watching him in the Godswood. 

I personally don't think Ned is going to choke at the point where he says forgive..., to frown at the tree for a long time because he told a lie to Cat and it will unsettle her life some. Ned even lets Arya feel some comfort that when she lied it wasn't so bad because the lie was not without honor.

Neds lie to Cat was stacked with honor. I don't think he's going to be that anguished over it to the point he stops in his tracks and frowns for a long time. Unless...

Unless something made him stop and look up from where he was bowed before. 

And a frown, yes a frown, why not?. If you were praying to your Old Gods in front of your tree and the very leaves of the tree and the wind itself began to give off this strange whispery sound that had some kind of strange feel to it.

"and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning"

Wouldn't you be confused, and frown at it wondering what was going on.

Ned frowns a lot in the books when something vexes or confuses him. Not sure if there's much or anytimes he does it when he is sorrowful or regretful though. 

We could consult the search engine  if you like? "Ned" "frown". Could be interesting.

 

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@ravenous reader

Having a wee think on the Theon scene in the Godswood and how the word Theon is audible twice and the word Bran once.

I always assume this is part of a larger pattern of words. Ive never imagined Bran is whispering saying or shouting Theon and Bran only. We should assume it is snippets of a sentence he is hearing shouldn't we.

"The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands." 

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured."

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

Ok, so if we are in agreement Brans action can cause reaction in "the past" since these magical tree gateways,doors, or portals do not understand the concept of time and view the past present and future as one and the same. Then why would we view the scenes so differently In regards to certain snippets of what Bran says being audible?. I know there's a difference in that in Theons case he notes the night was windless but should this effect the idea im proposing if the Weirwood network is one of these portals or mediums we have been speculating about?.

Isnt there just as much chance that Ned could faintly make out the whispered word "Winterfell" amongst the rustling of the leaves?.

Or that in amongst this quote below, Ned could faintly make out certain words, like when Theon only hears words such as "Theon" and "Bran" when Bran talks to him. 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

What if Ned just faintly heard the words "father" and "Brandon" only?, just as an example. Wouldn't that be strange to a young Ned since his father and brother Brandon had recently been killed. 

@Darkstream don't you think this would merit a frown?. Just throwing ideas out there girls/guys. 

And yes, I know, Bloodraven says.... but let's face it, Bloodravens siblings who he tried to reach through the trees were likely not (IMO) going to be praying in front of a Weirwood opening their heart out to the Old Gods so maybe the whispering wind and rustling leaves always passed them by and they missed any very faint words that were possibly audible.

 

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5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

don't you think this would merit a frown?. Just throwing ideas out there girls/guys. 

Yes, I would agree. And not that I had doubted you, but I did do a quick search just to see how often Ned frowns, and it's seems that he really does tend to frown quite frequently, in many different circumstances. 

And I would admit, when pondering Ned's reaction, I did have his promise to Lyanna in mind, and his thoughts of broken promises. However, he did specifically refer to Cat, so I do think that it is less likely that this is such a dire thought that would make him break off, or suppress it.

...But still cannot say for certain as we still do not know what these broken promises are, and if they involve Cat or not.

 

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