A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son This is not me backing down man, you simply do not seem to understand that with this trope being applied it means that Bran can never change the past (for some strange reason that I can't fathom) and I have to wait until it is shown clearer in the books before we can progress in our chat. It's like telling my 9month old son not to shout with his new found voice lol, there is absolutely no point trying to explain this to him... but! In time he will find himself at a stage where can understand me saying to him that he does not need to shout. It's all about time, and you, just like him will be easier to explain things to in time.

You still seem to think that this scenario means Bran can change the past, and this has left me no choice but to focus on discussing the topic with people who do get it, but like I said, when the new book comes out and gives us fresh text to analyse, you will see the light DM. 

And the KOTLT idea idea involves Lyanna praying to the Old Gods, telling them of her idea to enter the lists and have the Knights teach their squires honor. Bran, watching this and having already heard the story is delighted to learn of the identity of the KOTLT, the Wolfmaid, so he laughs and smiles at the discovery. 

Lyanna briefly sees this project on the tree just like Theon briefly saw Brans face, and she has her shield painted just like the KOTLT in the story Bran was told, thinking it a sign from the Old Gods.

So, Lyanna was inspired to paint her shield that way by Bran all along in the first place, and always was. Bran is later told the story. He "visits" the story through the magical Weirwood tree gateway that does not view time like us, like Old Nan told him to and fulfills that action causing Lyanna to have her shield painted that way. 

Like Bloodraven said, he can't change the past but he can learn from it.

This is simply an example of how it could play out, im fully aware this hasn't been confirmed. But it in no way involves Bran controlling the KOTLT through Skinchanging or anything like that. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

'Were it ever so airy a tread...' basically sums up the airiness of this too-oft-trodden thread .

Pretty much 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

When your detractors, frustrated as they are by your overly-literal interpretations of the literary, and your brusque combative style, see you quoting poetry of such tenderness and lyricism, they will be uncomfortably bamboozled!  Although perhaps the latter was your object, at least partially, we should reassure them that it's all meant very ironically, of course.

Please, the credit for bringing out my sensitive side is solely you and yours alone .  
Irony is tough to show in basic text and emojis. Attempts to show it are why threads like this and the last three exist 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

As you can tell from the lateness of my response, and the comparative brevity of my message, relative to my usual arduous (and ardent) 'walls of text'; you have played a hardcore game, raising my Yeats with Tennyson -- so I am beaten...LOL.  

It was not a competition, simply a harmony, sung with words from centuries past. And no, you are not beaten, it is I who only hopes to be 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 And now -- (No-)Thanks to you, I am forced to appreciate the urgent beauty of Tennyson's breathy blossoming heart-beat in a new light!

And I must now see Yeats with new eyes, because of you. thank you

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son This is not me backing down man, you simply do not seem to understand that with this trope being applied it means that Bran can never change the past (for some strange reason that I can't fathom) and I have to wait until it is shown clearer in the books before we can progress in our chat. It's like telling my 9month old son not to shout with his new found voice lol, there is absolutely no point trying to explain this to him... but! In time he will find himself at a stage where can understand me saying to him that he does not need to shout. It's all about time, and you, just like him will be easier to explain things to in time.

How can you have a son? You haven't even made it to high school yet? I guess things are different in scotland....

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You still seem to think that this scenario means Bran can change the past, and this has left me no choice but to focus on discussing the topic with people who do get it, but like I said, when the new book comes out and gives us fresh text to analyse, you will see the light DM. 

Yes, I do, because the trope as you want to see it does not limit bran's action in the past. If he can take an action in his time that can affect the past enough to set something in motion, there is no reason to think he would not be able to take an action that would  change the timeline to be more suitable to himself, like warning his father and mother and siblings. This was dealt with in Babylon5 by having the actual time travel be the realm of beings that are effectively divine. So far you have not suggested a mechanism that would limit Bran's ability to affect the past other than "Well, it can't happen so it won't!" 
Why you cannot understand this is beyond me and why I keep referring to your want of this trope as pure desire.

 

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And the KOTLT idea idea involves Lyanna praying to the Old Gods, telling them of her idea to enter the lists and have the Knights teach their squires honor. Bran, watching this and having already heard the story is delighted to learn of the identity of the KOTLT, the Wolfmaid, so he laughs and smiles at the discovery. 

Lyanna briefly sees this project on the tree just like Theon briefly saw Brans face, and she has her shield painted just like the KOTLT in the story Bran was told, thinking it a sign from the Old Gods.

So, Lyanna was inspired to paint her shield that way by Bran all along in the first place, and always was. Bran is later told the story. He "visits" the story through the magical Weirwood tree gateway that does not view time like us, like Old Nan told him to and fulfills that action causing Lyanna to have her shield painted that way. 

Like Bloodraven said, he can't change the past but he can learn from it.

This is simply an example of how it could play out, im fully aware this hasn't been confirmed. But it in no way involves Bran controlling the KOTLT through Skinchanging or anything like that. 

you do realize that what you are saying is that bran is merely watching a past event he had heard about and that Lyanna would put the laughing tree on the shield regardless of bran watching or not? By your own example he did not set anything in motion, or in any way reach back in time to make that scenario work

[ravenous reader]

@Dorian Martell's son, 'who would have thought you had such eloquence in you...'?  

39 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And I must now see ... with new eyes, because of you. thank you

You're welcome.  See -- you do have a 'third eye' after all!

39 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It was not a competition, simply a harmony, sung with words from centuries past. And no, you are not beaten, it is I who only hopes to be

Though you be charming, you will not be getting any further emojis from me today.

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you do realize that what you are saying is that bran is merely watching a past event he had heard about and that Lyanna would put the laughing tree on the shield regardless of bran watching or not?

It's not 'regardless,' if Bran was always going to be present in that scene.  Think of Time as a ribbon doubled over / coiled etc instead of in a straight line.  At the points where the ribbon makes contact with itself, that's your loop, where the present/future intersects with the past.  Remember, that time is different for a tree.  It's not a one-way flowing river.

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the trope as you want to see it does not limit bran's action in the past. If he can take an action in his time that can affect the past enough to set something in motion, there is no reason to think he would not be able to take an action that would  change the timeline to be more suitable to himself, like warning his father and mother and siblings.

I understand your position and even share your aesthetic sentiment.  However, as I've suggested previously, Bran's linguistic range is limited by whatever vessel he's skinchanging.  Summer does not suddenly break out into the common tongue and Bran does not say anything other than 'Hodor' whilst in Hodor.  Actually, depending on your perspective on the last question, namely whether Bran is just 'faking it' in order to hide the abomination, or whether he would feasibly be able to utter something other than 'Hodor,' (e.g. when he fantasizes about telling Meera he loves her while in Hodor); that will tell you a lot about the scope of speaking through the weirwood, since Hodor symbolically is intimately related to all skinchangeable giants, including the weirwood and dragons (and celestial bodies too).  I still think it's inordinately difficult, and that communication would be nowhere near the level of sophistication required to 'warn' someone effectively.  In fact, there would be a great danger of being 'lost in translation,' having unintended (and tragically ironic) effects.  So, in summary, contact with the past in the way I've endorsed is limited -- but not impossible.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@Dorian Martell's son, 'who would have thought you had such eloquence in you...'?  

You're welcome.  See -- you do have a 'third eye' after all!

Though you be charming, you will not be getting any further emojis from me today.

charming is a start 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It's not 'regardless,' if Bran was always going to be present in that scene.  Think of Time as a ribbon doubled over / coiled etc instead of in a straight line.  At the points where the ribbon makes contact with itself, that's your loop, where the present/future intersects with the past.  Remember, that time is different for a tree.  It's not a one-way flowing river.

I would say it is "regardless." If bran can communicate with the past, it is a practical skill that can be used whenever he chooses to once learned. Once he has that power, why would he not use it at any other time. The idea of "He was always there" does not fit very well with free will, choice and the desires of a 10 year old boy who wants to see his family. Again, if he was "always" in the tree, talking to say, Lyanna, and gives her a vision of the tree laughing and has her thus paint her shield as a laughing tree, why wouldn't he learn from that, go to a more recent memory with say, his father praying in the godswood at winterfell, and show him an image of something more terrible, say, Robb and Cat dying. Why would he not try repeatedly over and over again until his father changes his plans and stays in winterfell. Why not time skinchange a raven and have that raven scratch a message on a wall for ned to read? 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I understand your position and even share your aesthetic sentiment.  However, as I've suggested previously, Bran's linguistic range is limited by whatever vessel he's skinchanging.  Summer does not suddenly break out into the common tongue and Bran does not say anything other than 'Hodor' whilst in Hodor.  Actually, depending on your perspective on the last question, namely whether Bran is just 'faking it' in order to hide the abomination, or whether he would feasibly be able to utter something other than 'Hodor,' (e.g. when he fantasizes about telling Meera he loves her while in Hodor); that will tell you a lot about the scope of speaking through the weirwood, since Hodor symbolically is intimately related to all skinchangeable giants, including the weirwood and dragons (and celestial bodies too).  I still think it's inordinately difficult, and that communication would be nowhere near the level of sophistication required to 'warn' someone effectively.  In fact, there would be a great danger of being 'lost in translation,' having unintended (and tragically ironic) effects.  So, in summary, contact with the past in the way I've endorsed is limited -- but not impossible.

Alright, now this is a limit on time travel that makes sense. I am in the camp that summer cannot speak the common tongue because he has no vocal cords. I am in the camp that bran is faking it when he is in hodor to not upset his companions. He can speak through the ravens in the Storm/dance/winds chapter.  So if he is only able to speak the true tongue when time traveling in a weirwood tree, and no one understands him, then effectively, he cannot interact with the past and it is merely akin to watching a security camera on playback  

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son for one to create life, a man must find himself a mate of the opposite sex. A female, if your unfamiliar with the term. Then your bodies must be joined in an old as time, much celebrated union. This would be sex. If it is the right time of the month and all the males swimmers are strong enough to make the journey, there is an egg which the champion sperm will make it to. These are found in Semen. Either you've never saw it, or it's possibly stuck to the sock at the side of your bed, but either way this magical stuff needs to go actually "inside" the "female". Now, it must be female or you will get this all wrong and wind up confused. 

Now, providing all these magical things are lined up in the correct sequence, new life is created. But! You ask how I have a son, well my eager student, this is a lottery. It's a hit or miss, you can just as easily make a daughter! Would you believe it! We can perform these miracle feats but we can not choose the gender. 

So, that's how I have a son. You are a son I see? But you only masquerade as "the son" of Dorian martell. We all know you are simply Dorian Martell. Maybe one day you will know what it feels like to lay with a woman and create a real true life Dorian Martells son. If you can leave the laptop in your bedroom. The world is out there DM. Your own great great great great whatever may be looking back into the past from the future right now and scratching his head thinking no, please no. This is where I'm descended from!. 

But, no matter what he does, or how hard he tries, he can NOT change the past. Past present and future, It is all set in stone, he can just learn from it. Oh wait, that's ASOIAF I'm talking about. Ah well back to the story. So you cool on how sons are made?. Need any tips I'll easily help, I have a daughter too. I'm a seasoned vet at this shit. 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Alright, now this is a limit on time travel that makes sense. I am in the camp that summer cannot speak the common tongue because he has no vocal cords. I am in the camp that bran is faking it when he is in hodor to not upset his companions. He can speak through the ravens in the Storm/dance/winds chapter.  So if he is only able to speak the true tongue when time traveling in a weirwood tree, and no one understands him, then effectively, he cannot interact with the past and it is merely akin to watching a security camera on playback  

Ahhh, real progress here. Dorian are you actually admitting that Bran can speak the true tongue while he has slipped from his own skin into the Weirwood and is time travelling in the Weirwood as you say?. 

Your only problem now is that the people can't understand him when he tries to talk so he cant have proper conversations with them, and it is now only "merely akin" to watching a security camera on playback, but not actually that. 

Seems to me like you are admitting that Bran can operate outwith the strictures of time and a noise that was generated by him made its way to Neds point "in time" from Brans point "in time". 

Breakthrough? @ravenous reader

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, I do, because the trope as you want to see it does not limit bran's action in the past. If he can take an action in his time that can affect the past enough to set something in motion, there is no reason to think he would not be able to take an action that would  change the timeline to be more suitable to himself, like warning his father and mother and siblings. This was dealt with in Babylon5 by having the actual time travel be the realm of beings that are effectively divine. So far you have not suggested a mechanism that would limit Bran's ability to affect the past other than "Well, it can't happen so it won't!" 

There is no "as I want to see it". If the trope is applied, it is the trope that decides this, not me, or the writer himself can set his own preferred limitations, which he evidently has because Bran is told he can not change the past, and also there are communication limitations in the sense that Bran can not hold back and forth conversations with the people he sees. If he could and told Robb or his father of certain dangers and they avoided them and lived, Brans present would not exist and then all sorts of confusion ensues and things like alternate timelines and stuff come into play (and different tropes entirely to the one we are discussing) or GRRMS story loses its dramatic effect and things are too controlled and easy. That would be shit I'm sure you would agree.

With the application of this trope it simply means that through functional magic, a character can access other points in "time". In Brans case here, we mean the past, but, due to the trope (or GRRM)setting this rule, nothing he does will ever erase the timeline that brought him to his "present". Everything is all set in stone, there is no other timelines or the chance to make other timelines when a writer applies this trope. Anything Bran ever does to change anything will only serve to show him he is responsible for the very event he set out to change. Things only happen once, and with the insertion of greeenseer magic and other portals/doorways/mediums such as the flames into the story our characters can access "time". Yes, this is the past and the future we are talking about. 

Melisandre saw the future when she saw the girl in grey on the dying horse. It effected her and Jon's "present" because they talked about it and the idea that it was his sister was presented. He even sends Mance and the spearwives on the strength of it. This is cause and effect on the present from the future. No two ways about it. 

So, if we take ourselves to the "time" where the girl is riding the horse to the Wall. That information travels from that "present" to the "past", where Mel accesses it from the flames, and it prompts her to seek Jon and they talk about it. The cause and effect is all set in stone and that is then the present effecting the past right there, or the future effecting the present depending on perspective. 

These instances of cause and effect are set in stone though, regardless of the origin in "time", because the magical doorway, portal or medium is at play. There was no other way that timeline played out ever. Jon and Mel had those conversations in the only timeline ever because information from another "time" was accessed. And it is accessed through magic. Yes, Weirwood gateways, Greenseer magic and also flame portals and gateways. All magic. 

The trope of the self fulfilling prophecy is something that GRRM has already said he is having fun with. This is similar in ways to the loop we are talking about, so there's a very very real possibility that GRRM is doing this with Bran, and yes, the trope states that no matter what you do, you can not change the events of the past. What will change though, is Brans perception of the events. This will certainly change, and this is where the real impact will be. The young boy who only yearns to change things to make them right, only to find he may have been responsible all along. 

If you would personally detest that, then that is your own personal issue. I would find that interesting. But we are all different thankfully, or the world would be boring.

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son for one to create life, a man must find himself a mate of the opposite sex. A female, if your unfamiliar with the term. Then your bodies must be joined in an old as time, much celebrated union. This would be sex. If it is the right time of the month and all the males swimmers are strong enough to make the journey, there is an egg which the champion sperm will make it to. These are found in Semen. Either you've never saw it, or it's possibly stuck to the sock at the side of your bed, but either way this magical stuff needs to go actually "inside" the "female". Now, it must be female or you will get this all wrong and wind up confused. 

Now, providing all these magical things are lined up in the correct sequence, new life is created. But! You ask how I have a son, well my eager student, this is a lottery. It's a hit or miss, you can just as easily make a daughter! Would you believe it! We can perform these miracle feats but we can not choose the gender. 

So, that's how I have a son. You are a son I see? But you only masquerade as "the son" of Dorian martell. We all know you are simply Dorian Martell. Maybe one day you will know what it feels like to lay with a woman and create a real true life Dorian Martells son. If you can leave the laptop in your bedroom. The world is out there DM. Your own great great great great whatever may be looking back into the past from the future right now and scratching his head thinking no, please no. This is where I'm descended from!. 

But, no matter what he does, or how hard he tries, he can NOT change the past. Past present and future, It is all set in stone, he can just learn from it. Oh wait, that's ASOIAF I'm talking about. Ah well back to the story. So you cool on how sons are made?. Need any tips I'll easily help, I have a daughter too. I'm a seasoned vet at this shit. 

Says the guy who is freaked out by a bit of flirting. Nice try at snark tho. Maybe when you graduate and leave your parents house you can practice in the real world instead of just quoting your sex ed text with fellow nerds online. It will be an eye opener for sure. 
BTW, weren't you done? Weren't you going to leave this until the next book came out? Oh that's right. you need me 

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ahhh, real progress here. Dorian are you actually admitting that Bran can speak the true tongue while he has slipped from his own skin into the Weirwood and is time travelling in the Weirwood as you say?. 

Of course not. But my esteemed forum colleague, unlike yourself and your many threads on the subject, has been able to offer a possibility, in book, that would allow something as foolish as the plot you so desperately desire. Where you posit an oft used sci-fi  trope, I offered a counter, with practical implications that involve the character, personality and potential powers as to why that would not work. Every.Single.One.Of.Your.Replies has simply been "Well, the trope doesn't work like that" or "It can't happen when the trope is used" over and over again. Numerous threads, countless replies. Yet through all of that, despite all your love of the trope and the desire to make it happen, you failed time and time again to offer even the most basic explanation of how it would work.
Our fellow forum denizen and poetry aficionado  @ravenous reader   simply did what you are unable to do. 

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Your only problem now is that the people can't understand him when he tries to talk so he cant have proper conversations with them, and it is now only "merely akin" to watching a security camera on playback, but not actually that. 

Yet effectively, it would be merely akin to watching a video playback if he is unable to have any practical interaction with the past. There is a larger rabbit hole as to why this still would not work, but that is for another reply 

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 Seems to me like you are admitting that Bran can operate outwith the strictures of time and a noise that was generated by him made its way to Neds point "in time" from Brans point "in time". 

It seems to me that your sole rhetorical technique is to try to put words in someone's reply, and when that fails, move on to petty insults, and when you are bested at the petty insult game, you run to a mod and cry about it. 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There is no "as I want to see it". If the trope is applied, it is the trope that decides this, not me, or the writer himself can set his own preferred limitations, which he evidently has because Bran is told he can not change the past, and also there are communication limitations in the sense that Bran can not hold back and forth conversations with the people he sees. If he could and told Robb or his father of certain dangers and they avoided them and lived, Brans present would not exist and then all sorts of confusion ensues and things like alternate timelines and stuff come into play (and different tropes entirely to the one we are discussing) or GRRMS story loses its dramatic effect and things are too controlled and easy. That would be shit I'm sure you would agree.

I absolutely love it when you argue my points for me. Thank you. 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

With the application of this trope it simply means that through functional magic, a character can access other points in "time". In Brans case here, we mean the past, but, due to the trope (or GRRM)setting this rule, nothing he does will ever erase the timeline that brought him to his "present". Everything is all set in stone, there is no other timelines or the chance to make other timelines when a writer applies this trope. Anything Bran ever does to change anything will only serve to show him he is responsible for the very event he set out to change. Things only happen once, and with the insertion of greeenseer magic and other portals/doorways/mediums such as the flames into the story our characters can access "time". Yes, this is the past and the future we are talking about. 

And like the weirwood video playback, the flames are merely a look into something, and it cannot be affected by the magic user watching said video playback. Again, thank you for arguing my point. I appreciate someone else doing my legwork for me. 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Melisandre saw the future when she saw the girl in grey on the dying horse. It affected her and Jon's "present" because they talked about it and the idea that it was his sister was presented. He even sends Mance and the spearwives on the strength of it. This is cause and effect on the present from the future. No two ways about it. 

Yes. No one is arguing that actions in the present will have an affect on the future. We have been 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So, if we take ourselves to the "time" where the girl is riding the horse to the Wall. That information travels from that "present" to the "past", where Mel accesses it from the flames, and it prompts her to seek Jon and they talk about it. The cause and effect is all set in stone and that is then the present effecting the past right there, or the future effecting the present depending on perspective. 

I would argue that Mel saw a girl on a horse in realtime. That is neither here nor there, because mel was wrong about who the girl on the horse was. She was wrong because the future isn't set in stone. If the future is not set in stone, I do not see how a stable time loop would work 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

These instances of cause and effect are set in stone though, regardless of the origin in "time", because the magical doorway, portal or medium is at play. There was no other way that timeline played out ever. Jon and Mel had those conversations in the only timeline ever because information from another "time" was accessed. And it is accessed through magic. Yes, Weirwood gateways, Greenseer magic and also flame portals and gateways. All magic. 

Again, if everything is set in stone, why is mel wrong about Arya? 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The trope of the self fulfilling prophecy is something that GRRM has already said he is having fun with. This is similar in ways to the loop we are talking about, so there's a very very real possibility that GRRM is doing this with Bran, and yes, the trope states that no matter what you do, you can not change the events of the past. What will change though, is Brans perception of the events. This will certainly change, and this is where the real impact will be. The young boy who only yearns to change things to make them right, only to find he may have been responsible all along. 

So, his perception of past events, like watching a video playback from a different angle can change, but he would have no effect on actual events? 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If you would personally detest that, then that is your own personal issue. I would find that interesting. But we are all different thankfully, or the world would be boring.

And with this I can say, we are in absolute 100% agreement 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Our fellow forum denizen and poetry aficionado  @ravenous reader   simply did what you are unable to do. 

Thanks for the compliment DM -- I must say you are uncharacteristically good at the 'charming' stuff (no wonder it bores you ); therefore, I will have to be on guard...there are still so many layers of irony to cross, fairytale castles in the air in which to lose oneself, and bogs in which to sink like so many armor-laden knights in the Neck...In truth, disarming the apparent difficulties may only have uncovered other difficulties I had not foreseen, ha ha!

Regarding your latest, well ongoing, objections to the 'time loop' scenario, I'd have to agree with you that the possibility of 'skinchanging in the past', e.g. the ravens scratching a message on a wooden beam to Ned a la Wex, would surely threaten plot cohesion, rendering it trite.  So, there definitely has to be some kind of limitation put on past vs. present greenseeing, or things will seriously unravel on GRRM pretty rapidly.  If I were Bran, I'd forgo scratching on a pole, and simply skinchange a dragon in the past and lay waste to Casterly Rock and all its affiliated denizens; actually, all of my enemies, whenever and wherever necessary (kind of like Dany is able to do in the present context), and that is simply not a very interesting story (although I still believe in my not-symbolically-unsubstantiated whimsy that Bran will skinchange a wighted Drogon in the future).

As to the 'linguistic limitations,' I agree (are you bored yet with all this agreement between us..?) that Bran would conceivably be able to harness Hodor's intact speech apparatus by making up for the particular executive pathway in Hodor's brain that is defective (in modern diagnostic terms, Hodor's speech malady would be akin to an 'expressive aphasia').  However, the weirwood would not function in the same way, since a tree's 'linguistic apparatus' differs from that of a human skinchanging host.  It really shouldn't have been possible for Bran to utter a human word, even a single one,  using leaves.  The feat was not only accomplished telepathically -- that would be more of the 'silent shout' type of communication we've seen before -- because Theon in TWOW explicitly details his observation that it was not a silent but rather an audible communication, moreover produced by the leaves moving on a windless night = the leaves 'rustling'!   How do you explain this?  It shouldn't have been possible to do, 'logically'.  Hopefully, GRRM will keep such communications in both past and present to a minimum, and limit them to nothing more complex than one-word utterances at a time.  As long as Bran doesn't speak in clear sentences, it will be tolerable for all!

P.S.  Should you ever feel the poetic urge again, for any reason, you are welcome on my thread.

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Breakthrough? @ravenous reader

It's difficult to say for sure.  That DM is a tricky customer, as you well know (I'm sure you wouldn't have him any other way)!  A door may have been opened, but nowhere near the closed case that would satisfy you...  

In any case, I now have a new radical interpretation of Tennyson's 'beatings', hitherto unglimpsed... so I guess you could call that a breakthrough of sorts!

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Maybe when you graduate and leave your parents house

Hahaha this is about the ninth time you have used this old chestnut, I'd stake money on it being a projection of your own home life, nice trick there. 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

But my esteemed forum colleague, unlike yourself and your many threads on the subject, has been able to offer a possibility, in book, that would allow something as foolish as the plot you so desperately desire

It still amounts to you coming round to the idea and being very very close to admitting Bran caused Neds reaction in the past. That's a big deal for you. Whether it's RR or myself makes no matter to me. Your too stubborn to admit defeat to me, but I'm just happy your finally seeing things our way.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would argue that Mel saw a girl on a horse in realtime. That is neither here nor there, because mel was wrong about who the girl on the horse was. She was wrong because the future isn't set in stone. If the future is not set in stone, I do not see how a stable time loop would work 

Prove that if you can, using the book text. It is completely irrelevant she never knew the girl wasn't Arya. She saw a girl she thought was Arya in the future through the flames and that prompted her to talk with Jon which prompted him to send Mance and the spearwives. That is Information from the future causing actions in the present whether you can admit it or not. The girl on the horse was seen in the flames in the future and this set in course actions in the present. And if the past present and future are all one to the Weirwood trees, there is a future set in stone in ASOIAF. Take your time to find the text showing that Mel saw the girl on the horse in real time. I'll await that.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, his perception of past events, like watching a video playback from a different angle can change, but he would have no effect on actual events? 

Yup, when Bran realises he was responsible for a certain event, his perception of how it happened will change because he was always the cause. Simple really.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

t's difficult to say for sure.  That DM is a tricky customer, as you well know (I'm sure you wouldn't have him any other way)!  A door may have been opened, but nowhere near the closed case that would satisfy you...  

You soften him up and lower his guard, and I'm ready to pounce the moment he drops this stubborn nonsense and we are all in agreement. It's coming and he knows it. 

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You soften him up and lower his guard, and I'm ready to pounce the moment he drops this stubborn nonsense and we are all in agreement. It's coming and he knows it. 

Let's see how 'pouncing' on Dorian works out for you, LOL...

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's see how 'pouncing' on Dorian works out for you, LOL...

You just keep softening him up. He's putty in your hands. He's slowly but surely becoming a believer, and when he is fully on board, I will be there to let him know he took long enough to admit it. Keep up the good work RR. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for the compliment DM -- I must say you are uncharacteristically good at the 'charming' stuff (no wonder it bores you ); therefore, I will have to be on guard...there are still so many layers of irony to cross, fairytale castles in the air in which to lose oneself, and bogs in which to sink like so many armor-laden knights in the Neck...In truth, disarming the apparent difficulties may only have uncovered other difficulties I had not foreseen, ha ha!

We all have our demons. some of them are even charming 

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Regarding your latest, well ongoing, objections to the 'time loop' scenario, I'd have to agree with you that the possibility of 'skinchanging in the past', e.g. the ravens scratching a message on a wooden beam to Ned a la Wex, would surely threaten plot cohesion, rendering it trite.  So, there definitely has to be some kind of limitation put on past vs. present greenseeing, or things will seriously unravel on GRRM pretty rapidly.  If I were Bran, I'd forgo scratching on a pole, and simply skinchange a dragon in the past and put waste to Casterly Rock and all its affiliated denizens; actually, all of my enemies, whenever and wherever necessary (kind of like Dany is able to do in the present context), and that is simply not a very interesting story (although I still believe in my not-symbolically-unsubstantiated whimsy that Bran will skinchange a wighted Drogon in the future).

I was going to add that if language was the only barrier he could just speak to a CTOF in the past in the true tongue and have them hand deliver a note to Ned then bran could just speak to himself and teach himself to be a greenseer in the winterfell godswood allowing him to be with his family. time skinchanging a dragon and having it melt casterly rock would also be an epic plot ruiner. I like your style 

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

As to the 'linguistic limitations,' I agree (are you bored yet with all this agreement between us..?) that Bran would conceivably be able to harness Hodor's intact speech apparatus by making up for the particular executive pathway in Hodor's brain that is defective (in modern diagnostic terms, Hodor's speech malady would be akin to an 'expressive aphasia').  However, the weirwood would not function in the same way, since a tree's 'linguistic apparatus' differs from that of a human skinchanging host.  It really shouldn't have been possible for Bran to utter a human word, even a single one,  using leaves.  The feat was not only accomplished telepathically -- that would be more of the 'silent shout' type of communication we've seen before -- because Theon in TWOW explicitly details his observation that it was not a silent but rather an audible communication, moreover produced by the leaves moving on a windless night = the leaves 'rustling'!   How do you explain this?  It shouldn't have been possible to do, 'logically'.  Hopefully, GRRM will keep such communications in both past and present to a minimum, and limit them to nothing more complex than one-word utterances at a time.  As long as Bran doesn't speak in clear sentences, it will be tolerable for all!

P.S.  Should you ever feel the poetic urge again, for any reason, you are welcome on my thread.

 

I could never be bored with the first person to Quote Yeats to me. I never thought of Hodor's speech pathway being damaged. It always eeemed to me that he has a condition akin to autism that prevents his verbal communication and is responsible for is fear of loud noises a la the tower in the lake. As for the rustling, I agree, it is telepathic, and I have always said that communication via weirwood is possible in realtime. That is why Theon understands the tree talking to him and Ned only hears wind and leaves the first time and nothing the second time bran fails to talk to him.
And I will try to post more poetry snippets in your threads.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hahaha this is about the ninth time you have used this old chestnut, I'd stake money on it being a projection of your own home life, nice trick there. 

Reverse psychology. I used to try that when I couldn't support my own arguments too. Nce try chap. Take your time on your next reply. The sad boring ones are getting, well, sad and boring. 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It still amounts to you coming round to the idea and being very very close to admitting Bran caused Neds reaction in the past. That's a big deal for you. Whether it's RR or myself makes no matter to me. You're too stubborn to admit defeat to me, but I'm just happy you're finally seeing things our way.

Again, you lack a fundamental understanding of rhetorical and debate technique. Pointing out that someone can do something that you're incapable of is not the same as agreeing with your position.  Your lack of substance has forced me to correct your spelling/grammar  out of sheer boredom with your replies. I have corrected the reply in highlights/bold/underlines and then highlighted/bolded/underlined the correct use of various spellings of Your/You're. I hope this helps. I am sure they will teach this to you in highschool.

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Prove that if you can, using the book text. It is completely irrelevant she never knew the girl wasn't Arya. She saw a girl she thought was Arya in the future through the flames and that prompted her to talk with Jon which prompted him to send Mance and the spearwives. That is Information from the future causing actions in the present whether you can admit it or not. The girl on the horse was seen in the flames in the future and this set in course actions in the present. And if the past present and future are all one to the Weirwood trees, there is a future set in stone in ASOIAF. Take your time to find the text showing that Mel saw the girl on the horse in real time. I'll await that.

She saw the girl riding a horse. That was realtime. No future needed. The whole point was that she was wrong, and the future is not set in stone as you claim. Since Arya is in Braavos, using mel as an example kinda sucks. But here we are........

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yup, when Bran realises he was responsible for a certain event, his perception of how it happened will change because he was always the cause. Simple really.

 wow, you write in agreement and say something totally different.  This merely reinforces the high school comments. 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You soften him up and lower his guard, and I'm ready to pounce the moment he drops this stubborn nonsense and we are all in agreement. It's coming and he knows it. 

One day when you grow up and become a man you will see how indignified it is to beg someone else to fight your battles for you. 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You just keep softening him up. He's putty in your hands. He's slowly but surely becoming a believer, and when he is fully on board, I will be there to let him know he took long enough to admit it. Keep up the good work RR. 

Jealous now? 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's see how 'pouncing' on Dorian works out for you, LOL...

We know how it works. He argues poorly, then he tries to insult in a clever way when his arguments fail, then he gets matched insult for insult, then he cries to the moderators when he feels defeated, then he talks trash when he thinks I'm gone. 
He needs me though. I am the yang to his yin. I am the focus he needs to get through his day. I am what he looks forward to when he wakes. I am the opponent he emulates and wished to be when he grows up. In short, I am his god. I win. 

[Macgregor of the North]

35 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is why Theon understands the tree talking to him and Ned only hears wind and leaves the first time and nothing the second time bran fails to talk to him.

The second time:

"… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

Yeah, Ned heard "nothing". 

Couple this with your observation earlier in the thread that Ned was frowning while praying. Which is actually false, since he was bowed praying, and is then prompted to lift his head by the sound Bran generates to then stare at the tree for a long time frowning. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell's son You never provided any text from the books for your claim that Mel saw the girl on the dying horse in real time and not a glimpse of the future. Was it that you couldn't find any and you think your word is simply enough? Is that the way of it?. Please show something from the books to back your "opinion" up.

28 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

One day when you grow up and become a man you will see how indignified it is to beg someone else to fight your battles for you. 

DM don't get frustrated. RR is doing a wonderful job of luring you in and dazzling you to the point that she will have you a Bran believer in no time. It's been obvious for a long time you can't concede to a man for fear of shame and embarrassment but when it comes to a woman, you are like a giddy teenager and at this rate, by the time the next book comes out you will probably claim that you agreed with us all along hahaha. 

Great work RR. Break him down. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

44 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The second time:

"… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

Yeah, Ned heard "nothing". 

Couple this with your observation earlier in the thread that Ned was frowning while praying. Which is actually false, since he was bowed praying, and is then prompted to lift his head by the sound Bran generates to then stare at the tree for a long time frowning. 

Read this first:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion     
Repetition is not a god argument. If he heard something, why was his two reactions so different if bran is "speaking" to him. The answer is that he did not react at all. He is praying to his god, like how your response is your prayer to me

18 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son You never provided any text from the books for your claim that Mel saw the girl on the dying horse in real time and not a glimpse of the future. Was it that you couldn't find any and you think your word is simply enough? Is that the way of it?. Please show something from the books to back your "opinion" up.

Any you never provided text that showed her INCORRECT vision was from the future. You expecting a different standard from me is more childish nonsense. I understand that you need that from the god you worship, and it's cute. Also, good job on the correct use of "your" in the reply. My lessons are having a positive effect on you. 

 

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

DM don't get frustrated. RR is doing a wonderful job of luring you in and dazzling you to the point that she will have you a Bran believer in no time. It's been obvious for a long time you can't concede to a man for fear of shame and embarrassment but when it comes to a woman, you are like a giddy teenager and at this rate, by the time the next book comes out you will probably claim that you agreed with us all along hahaha. 

Says the boy who can't argue without crying to the moderators. That's cute. 
Remember, every time you reply, I win 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's see how 'pouncing' on Dorian works out for you, LOL...

It's the only reason I'm reading this thread... I have to find out what's going to happen next.  I don't think a pile on will ruffle DM's feathers one bit.  The whole thing cracks me up.  Thanks DM!