A step back and a look at "time" in ASOIAF on the grand scale.

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We're over here @Dorian Martell's son

Can you keep it together though please? I quite like this thread and really don't want you getting abusive and having the mods step in to alter it with deleted comments. We're all getting tired of that now. 

So, welcome, but behave please.

First things first. I want you to answer a couple questions I poised to you in our last "encounter" that you danced around, or rather just point blank avoided.

Isn't it true that you personally detest the idea of any kind of well used trope such as time loops and the like being used in ASOIAF? Your exact word was "detest".

And, do you still think GRRM would never use a certain plot device or trope that has been used again and again over years and years of story telling. You believe that GRRM would never go down this route isn't it so?.

 

You are awfully condescending to someone YOU invite to a thread, especially since YOU seem to have already answered all the questions YOU "asked" me. Also, who is "we" in all of this? Because YOU seem to have the desire to bring me into every thread you post in asking me questions I have already answered ad nauseum. That doesn't look like someone who is tired of anything. It looks much more like someone who enjoys, no, more like, "loves" the interaction. Now, that being said, I can understand how difficult being a teenager is so I will forgive you this time for you awkward invitation. Would you like to ask me another question that you don't have an answer for? 

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

 

3) I think the Wall has that function symbolically. I see the Wall as a sort of figurative River Styx.

 

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

 

Again agreed.  If the caves/caverns are the asoiaf version of the underworld then we have the extensive cave system below the Wall, and I like @Cgrav's idea of the Wall as a sort of figurative River Styx.   

Excellent. Now let's switch continents: How about the corpse city of Stygai- which probably derived from Stygian? Crows dress in black, and iirc it was Mormont who said when someone objected that a course of action might lead to their deaths "that's why they dress us in black..." Perhaps Stygai is such a portal as well?

Not to mention the river that flows from there to Asshai bearing who knows what secrets and powers.

[ravenous reader]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

I also think it may be probable that the non-linear time interacted with through certain mediums arerelated the souls flowing through them rather than any intrinsic quality in the wood or the flames.

Could the power Jojen says lives in wood that is the equal of fire be the souls of human, Children, and even animals which extend beyond time into eternity but are now bound into this unnatural soul cycle?

The power resident in the deep wood that is the equal of fire is the equal of fire because it = FIRE!

The 'ground zero' of the Winterfell godswood is a 'hotpoint' built over a tectonic epicentre -- Theon for example notices that the temperature in the godswood, and the crypts to which it is probably intimately connected, is noticeably higher than that in the rest of Winterfell.  Hence, the pathways remain unfrozen and water is able to exist in liquid and vapour states instead of only solid.  It's the principle of 'fighting fire with fire'.

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

The Wall as some kind of portal to this Underworld? I am struck by Symeon Stareye's vision of Hellhounds fighting there.

We've already seen this 'portal' in action via the so-called 'Black Gate' which swallowed Bran and co to regurgitate them vagina-style on the other side of the womb -- i.e. Bran by traversing that gate became one of the 'unborn'.  Note the oath Sam has to swear thrice -- 'three times a charm...three times a curse...' -- that Bran should remain dead in exchange for the life of Gilly's baby (as well as Gilly and Sam).

I agree with @LmL: the hellhounds fighting was a kind of greenseer war within the 'weirnet'!  Symeon could view it, despite his ostensible blindness, because he's a greenseer too.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

 

Excellent. Now let's switch continents: How about the corpse city of Stygai- which probably derived from Stygian? Crows dress in black, and iirc it was Mormont who said when someone objected that a course of action might lead to their deaths "that's why they dress us in black..." Perhaps Stygai is such a portal as well?

Not to mention the river that flows from there to Asshai bearing who knows what secrets and powers.

Yeah I think we're meant to have that impression of Asshai and the area. It's convenient for symbolism because we'll never have a POV there in the story's present, according to GRRM himself. Melisandre herself is a "gate" that allows shadows to pass, so I think we're supposed to draw that connection. Considering she's got the weirwood coloring and lunar symbolism, as well, we can draw a pretty straight line between all of these objects/locations.

The river through Asshai is also black, like the pond by the Winterfell godswood and the lake near Vaes Dothrak. Those are both meant to act as sort of looking glasses to the Long Night. In the Dany scene, she sees the reflected moon "shatter" on the ripples, and there's some graphic sexual stuff going on symbolizing the sun's penetration of the moon. In the godswood, we also see Ned dip his LB symbol Ice into the pond, which we know holds a reflection of the heart tree, and we know the heart tree symbolizes the moon in the moment of its destruction.

And that scene lets me pivot gracefully back to the discussion of time. If these reflections are essentially images of the distant past, what does it mean that present-day Ned is sticking his present-day sword into an image of the moon's past destruction? He's completing a "Lightbringer forging" scene, but Lightbringer seems to be stabbing the past... Did the past send the comet to the future? Will Bran send the comet to the past?

I wonder if this is some convoluted scenario in which the AA of the past figured out how to send the comet 10,000 years into the future in order to avert disaster, but then present day Bran sends it back to avert a disaster, thus creating the Long Night in the story's past. Though I honestly hope it's something cooler than what I can come up with.

[cgrav]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The power resident in the deep wood that is the equal of fire is the equal of fire because it = FIRE!

 

yes, the wood = fire symbolism was given to us on three occasions, as GRRM likes to do:

1) Mel's mention of burning the heart tree at Storm's End
2) The giant weirwood at Whitetree with the charred remains in its mouth
3) The burning of weirwood sticks as the wildlings passed to the south

But also, wood = fire because, well, that's what you light to make a fire. This is laughably obvious now, but it seemed like a huge revelation at the time we figured it out.

[ravenous reader]

22 minutes ago, cgrav said:

If these reflections are essentially images of the distant past, what does it mean that present-day Ned is sticking his present-day sword into an image of the moon's past destruction? He's completing a "Lightbringer forging" scene, but Lightbringer seems to be stabbing the past... Did the past send the comet to the future? Will Bran send the comet to the past?

Mindbending stuff, cgrav!  The past sending the comet to the future is easier to comprehend, because we naturally accept that actions undertaken in the past have repercussions on the present and future.  However, the idea of the present or future influencing the past is more counterintuitive.

Spoiler

In the show, an example of what you're suggesting would be Bran breaking Hodor's mind in the past so that Hodor's mind could be harnessed by Bran in the future.

 

[cgrav]

@ravenous reader

There's also two mentions very early in GoT about the Heart Tree "brooding" over its reflection in the pool. As in, actually staring at itself. I'm going to drive myself to distraction thinking just wtf that would mean when we factor in the past-ness of the dark pool reflections. Does this represent the self-awareness of the greenseer?

And this is actually a wonderful confluence of symbolism. As established long ago, Ned's archetype is a King of the Underworld, King of Winter, etc figure, so if we accept that such a realm is timeless, then of course he can stab the past. 

[ravenous reader]

Just now, cgrav said:

@ravenous reader

There's also two mentions very early in GoT about the Heart Tree "brooding" over its reflection in the pool. As in, actually staring at itself. I'm going to drive myself to distraction thinking just wtf that would mean when we factor in the past-ness of the dark pool reflections. Does this represent the self-awareness of the greenseer?

Yes, I was thinking of that while writing my last response to you.  I've long held that the weirwood with the 'knowing' red eyes is none other than Bran himself.  So, when the weirwood pauses from 'brooding' self-reflexively on its own reflection in the black pool and raises its eyes to meet Bran's gaze, that is basically future Bran acknowledging past Bran!  The interweaving of time.  If you look at that particular passage closely, you'll see that the tree just 'knew' seemingly without looking that Bran was there.  That's because the tree (future) already saw Bran flying above (present) reflected in the pool below (past), because the reflection in the pool is Bran -- because the tree is Bran himself!

Just now, cgrav said:

And this is actually a wonderful confluence of symbolism. As established long ago, Ned's archetype is a King of the Underworld, King of Winter, etc figure, so if we accept that such a realm is timeless, then of course he can stab the past. 

I wonder what @LmL will make of this symbolism?!

[cgrav]

oh I got an idea: if the weirwood looking at its own reflection is a process of self-realization... and we believe that the Others somehow came from the weirwoods... does that mean that the Others are a literal personification of the weirwood consciousness? 

Like, they got some souls put in them, got eyes, looked at themselves and realized they existed, and then willed their cold, raging selves into reality in the form of ice monsters? 

Somehow, this makes sense with the early descriptions of the Crypts and the dead Kings of Winter in it. "Cold and hard as the land they ruled", and we know that the cold of real winter is the cold of the Others. Add to that Ned's wondering if their spirits could leave the crypt and wander... I'm starting to think that the heart tree is the real crypt, and that the old Kings of Winter are wandering. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are awfully condescending to someone YOU invite to a thread, especially since YOU seem to have already answered all the questions YOU "asked" me. Also, who is "we" in all of this? Because YOU seem to have the desire to bring me into every thread you post in asking me questions I have already answered ad nauseum. That doesn't look like someone who is tired of anything. It looks much more like someone who enjoys, no, more like, "loves" the interaction. Now, that being said, I can understand how difficult being a teenager is so I will forgive you this time for you awkward invitation. Would you like to ask me another question that you don't have an answer for? 

As you pointed out, I already answered the questions I set you. You do detest the idea of an oft used time type trope in ASOIAF because you have said it on a few occasions, and it clouds your reasoning on the possibility of it being used here, that is glaringly obvious. 

And all those times you brushed things off saying GRRM wouldn't use tired old used tropes, that was also proved false. In 1991, certain ideas weren't so old and tired and used as they seem now, and in any event, GRRM will stick to something right until the end if he feels capable of writing it well. He has said in interviews that he is playing with the ideas of Prophecy in the sense that a character does all they can to avoid it but will eventually go on to cause the Prophecy to come true. 

That in itself is a very very old and oft used plot device and technique and GRRM is unashamed to shout out for the world to see that he is using it in his story for fun.

So using an old trope such as a Stable time loop or the predestination paradox in Brans arc if he desired isn't something that should really surprise anyone when we are dealing with a writer who works at his own pace and uses whatever plot device he likes as he is confident in his own abilities to deliver it well.

Just because you who are so special would detest the idea (your words) in ASOIAF, do you think that means anything to GRRM? He fully knows that he will upset people and won't change anything for that reason alone because he's smart enough to know that we can't please everyone. He has no idea of your existence, never will, and quite frankly he could not care if you or anybody else would hate these ideas in his story lol.

While writing, here is one question I want to see your answer for, loud and clear for all the Forum to see. You can even use those underlined bolded capitals you love to use when your anger levels are rising and your face is red. 

As you have mentioned before, can you make very clear that your position is that Ned heard the "whisper on the wind and a rustling of the leaves" both times as a "fluke" as you call it, and they were absolutely nothing to do with Bran at all. It was just wind in the Godswood both times with absolutely no connection to Bran each time. 

Even when we have things in the Novel such as this from the author:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

And don't backtrack like you always do and ask me to quote your past responses, be clear. We are all here to listen to you DM and I am actually really interested in seeing if you can for once answer straight to the point with none of your usual games. 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

oh I got an idea: if the weirwood looking at its own reflection is a process of self-realization... and we believe that the Others somehow came from the weirwoods... does that mean that the Others are a literal personification of the weirwood consciousness? 

Like, they got some souls put in them, got eyes, looked at themselves and realized they existed, and then willed their cold, raging selves into reality in the form of ice monsters? 

Yes, indeed.  @Frey family reunion participated in an interesting discussion on Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time, about the Others being a kind of projection of the weirwoods' 'Id' or 'Shadow' in Jungian terms, which I find compelling:

Quote

Posted December 8, 2016 (edited) · Report post

  On 12/7/2016 at 9:51 AM, @Pain killer Jane said:

Ah but the question of identity takes place in front of a mirror and you are essentially asking your reflection "who are you?"

@Frey family reunion said:  I like this.  It dovetails nicely into one of Arrya's training regimes to become a faceless man, or "no one". 

  Quote

"Puff up your cheeks."  She did.  "Lift up your eyebrows.  No, higher."  She did that too.  "Good.  See how long you can hold that.  It will not be long.  Try it again on the morrow.  You will find a Myrish mirror in the vaults.  Train before it an hour every day.  Eyes, nostrils, cheeks, ears, lips, learn to rule them all."  He cupped her chin.  "Who are you?"

Arya uses the mirror to help changer her identity, to become "no one".  She also uses it to help her in her request for revenge.

This makes me think about another figure who is forced to gaze into his reflection constantly, Winterfell's weirwood tree.  The tree and the face stands over a black pool constantly reflecting the weirwood's image, but reflecting that image darkly. 

It is a significant image in one of Bran's visions:

  Quote

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.  When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Now what is the weirwood seeing as it stares into its reflection?  In another Bran POV we see

  Quote

Hodor knew Bran's favorite place, so he took him to the edge of the pool beneath the great spread of the heart tree, where Lord Eddard used to kneel to pray.  Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance. 

Shimmering and dancing, makes me think of the very first prequel chapter and our introduction to the Others.

  Quote

The Other slid forward on silent feet.  In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen.  No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade.  It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.  There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. 

Ser Waymar met him bravely.  "Dance with me then."

I've long believed that the Others are a magical creation of frozen air.  BC recently asked me who I thought would have created them.  I wonder perhaps if its not who, but what?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Frey family reunion

 

Posted December 8, 2016 ·

@LmL said:  There are only about a thousand quotes suggesting that the Others come from weirwoods in some sense. I am not sure exactly how that works, but I have been certain there is a link for a long time, as have many others I think, no pun intended. However, there are lots of scenes with fire shimmering and dancing, so I wouldn't call that a super strong link to the Others - I think there is a greater, larger dancing theme which all these examples play into. 

I like your point about the weirwood gazing into the dark mirror - it implies sorcery to me. The Mayans and other mesoamerican cultures used obsidian mirrors to practice magic, an idea which is clearly present in the glass candles. Is that black pond meant as a dark mirror? 

 

@Frey family reunion said:  The link between the fire and the Others is  that the shimmering and dancing fire is also the creator of "shadows".  The Others are shadows in their own right, (and are often referred to as such).  We've had other posters talk about the link between Melisandre's shadow assassins and the White Walkers.  I think both are similar creations.

One of GRRM's favorite movies is Forbidden Planet.  He even has a life size Robbie the Robot prominently displayed in his home.  The invisible threat in Forbidden Planet is a "monster from the id".  A machine on the planet could construct anything that could be imagined.  What it ended up constructing was a menace born directly from one of the character's, Morbius,  "Id". 

Carl Jung termed the dark side of our personality as our shadow self, or simply our shadow.  Stannis' "Id" or shadow self was used in the creation of Melisandre's shadow assassin.  His dark impulse to kill his brother brought to life.  I think the White Walkers may be a similar magical creation bringing the Weirwood's darkest impulse magically to life.

ETA: I was thinking of the black pond, more of a dark reflection of the weirwood trees, their shadow selves.  It made me think of the famous biblical quote:

  Quote

"For now we see through a glass, darkly."

Most seem to interpret glass as a mirror.  The Weirwood is gazing into a dark reflection of itself, its shadow, which dances and shimmers. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Frey family reunion

 

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

Somehow, this makes sense with the early descriptions of the Crypts and the dead Kings of Winter in it. "Cold and hard as the land they ruled", and we know that the cold of real winter is the cold of the Others. Add to that Ned's wondering if their spirits could leave the crypt and wander... I'm starting to think that the heart tree is the real crypt, and that the old Kings of Winter are wandering. 

Was that a deliberate pun on 'wondering' -- self reflective thought -- with 'wandering' -- projection of that thought, according to what I've conceptualized as the 'killing word' paradigm?  

In regards to the black pool as obsidian mirror, consider that as LmL and PK Jane have pointed out obsidian mirrors have long been used as scrying mirrors, basically portals into other time dimensions.  What's more, I've read that obsidian mirrors evolved from using bowls of water for divination purposes.  So a 'dragonglass sea' is really an 'obsidian see'!  The glass candles are along the same lines.

[Macgregor of the North]

@cgrav @ravenous reader @Wizz-The-Smith (Good thoughts by the way wizzz). I think we are in a good place with these timeless underworlds and ideas on gateways, portals and mediums etc that one can access non linear time and action through such as the flames, and the Weirwood tree network. 

Im personally quite settled on Bran, and cause and effect over different points in "time" with the involvement of the magical gateway such as the Weirwood trees. 

What I would like thoughts on is this type of actions in the story when Bran levels up and masters his Greenseer gifts to the point where he can see "well beyond the trees". 

Ive long thought, and the feeling gets stronger every time I read it, that the first words ever written in this saga, the moments where the boys find the pups in the snow, are the product of a certain vibe GRRM was on when he was in the process of writing his latest Sci Fi Novel. He says the idea came to him so vividly that he was suddenly inspired and he had had to write this down and the story stemmed from there. 

Due to this I'm quite sure personally that the roots of Brans arc are in a Sci Fi inspired place. 

After analysis after analysis I still believe that it's an action of Brans such as calling out to Jon from the direction of Ghost, that carries over the wind in the trees, that makes Jon turn to where Ghost is and sees the pup now moving, where it was still, silent and hidden before. 

While "present" at this scene, I think Greenseer Bran calls out to Jon while he is riding away and this carries over the wind in the trees and is somehow audible to Jon, Greenseer style.

I do not even think that Bran actually purposely yearned for this moment, then became present at this point "in time" with a view to fulfilling some sort of action, like Prophecy, that lends too much control to this scene. I think he may have simply found himself there, like he did with the Weirwood when he found himself at Winterfell, then saw Jon leaving Ghost behind and instinctively called out in despair, lest Jon ride off and leave Ghost to die. This is what makes Jon turn to gallop back for his pup. 

And this is what always caused Jon to turn back for his pup. 

I think this makes sense for Bran, as he is still what we class as a boy. Even though his powers are at a certain level, I think he will still be struggling to understand what he is seeing like when he saw his father. So when Bran is present "in time" at this event happening, with his consciousness out of his own body and greenseeing "time", I think he may still fail to understand the event and begin to panic at Jon riding away, worried he may forget Ghost and Ghost will never be found. Even though Bran, while in his own skin as a younger boy was actually there at the event and saw Jon ride back to pick up Ghost, I think his fear and misunderstanding of his powers will still prompt him to call out to Jon over the wind, and this is what was always the reason that Jon found Ghost.

 

 

[LmL]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

And that scene lets me pivot gracefully back to the discussion of time. If these reflections are essentially images of the distant past, what does it mean that present-day Ned is sticking his present-day sword into an image of the moon's past destruction? He's completing a "Lightbringer forging" scene, but Lightbringer seems to be stabbing the past... Did the past send the comet to the future? Will Bran send the comet to the past?

I wonder if this is some convoluted scenario in which the AA of the past figured out how to send the comet 10,000 years into the future in order to avert disaster, but then present day Bran sends it back to avert a disaster, thus creating the Long Night in the story's past. Though I honestly hope it's something cooler than what I can come up with.

NO, I think it's just recreating a symbol, so that we can see it - the dragon sword meteor going into the black water symbol. Dany, covered in blood, dips into the 'bottomless,' cold, and black WOTW, and Ned's blood soaked V steel sword is dipped into the "bottomless," cold, and black pond beneath the heart tree. It's the same symbol, i believe, a moon meteor sword dipping into the black water. I wouldn't think there are past / future implications, but then I am not a fan of time travel theories so I might be biased. 

[LmL]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Quote

And this is actually a wonderful confluence of symbolism. As established long ago, Ned's archetype is a King of the Underworld, King of Winter, etc figure, so if we accept that such a realm is timeless, then of course he can stab the past. 

I wonder what @LmL will make of this symbolism?!

Ok so I see what you're getting at. That makes a certain amount of sense. I guess on a basic level what i see is a weirwood person - a greenseer - using the dragonglass (fire magic). Just the simple link between the black pond which shows a reflection and obsidian mirrors suggests greenseers using glass candles, I would say. Obsidian, in my opinion, is part of the larger "black ice" symbol, so Bed's Black Ice sword, dipped into the black ice pond, is kind of a double symbol. The black pond does freeze over in ADWD btw. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

but then I am not a fan of time travel theories so I might be biased. 

LmL isn't Bran gazing into the past through the gates of the Weirwood tree network, as per Bloodravens words, a form of "time travel" in a sense?. When Bran slips his consciousness from his skin into the roots of the trees he feels he is there with his father in the tree at Winterfell in that "time" looking out the trees eyes.

If time travel is simply the concept of movement between different points in time then wouldn't this be classed as a form of time travel?. 

Weve never had an answer from GRRM on the topic so we only have the text, but if "time" is not a concept the tree understands and the "past present and future" are one, then it would only seem like time travel to us, or Bran, but its still Brans consciousness in the tree feeling as though he is right there at that time with his father. And the fact GRRM confirms (IMO) that Brans actions cause Neds reactions then doesn't that only bolster the idea that this is indeed some form of "time travel" happening here?. 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I am desperately trying to drive a point home by endlessly repeating the same sentence over and over again across multiple threads despite it being contradicted on multiple occasions by two different characters in the novels and for some reason you continue disagree with me and thus I obsess over it. 

Whatever you need to do feel better about yourself young man. 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Whatever you need to do feel better about yourself young man. 

Knew you were incapable. Says it all. The L goes to DM. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Knew you were incapable. Says it all. The L goes to DM. 

Says the child who hides behind the mods here. There is no need to repeat arguments ad nauseam over multiple threads  just to feed your obsession over me. The fact that you cannot let this go is proof positive of your desire to interact with me at any cost. That means I have already won.  You reply to this and I win. you tag me in another post about this and I win. you act on your weird obsession with me and I win.  

[Macgregor of the North]

36 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Says the child who hides behind the mods here. There is no need to repeat arguments ad nauseam over multiple threads  just to feed your obsession over me. The fact that you cannot let this go is proof positive of your desire to interact with me at any cost. That means I have already won.  You reply to this and I win. you tag me in another post about this and I win. you act on your weird obsession with me and I win.  

Are you still here lol? Skulking around my thread posting non book related personal attacks and insults.

The fact you keep coming back to me only to try and ridicule and manipulate, but not discuss the books, which I have asked you to do each time only highlights who took the loss here, and just how hard you took it. 

The offer still stands even now DM. If you can compose yourself and take a breather, and let go of this personal feeling you have toward me you are more than welcome to answer the questions I set you and defend your stance on the books. 

It amuses me to see you make a spectacle of yourself for sure, but when you wanna come back with book discussion, I'll be right here for you mate 

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Are you still here lol? Skulking around my thread posting non book related personal attacks and insults.

The fact you keep coming back to me only to try and ridicule and manipulate, but not discuss the books, which I have asked you to do each time only highlights who took the loss here, and just how hard you took it. 

I know you are not speaking to me. You keep mentioning discuss the books. You on the other hand are bringing up speculation and opinion, Your pet theory can't be proved or disproved.

"Royal is my race", do as you do with me, ignore. I gotta say though in this particular instance you did challenge and bait your adversary. I think your sparring buddy is correct.

What is more insane is that I am actually giving your petty post more front page time. For the life of me I cannot understand why the forces that be allow you to continue.