Jump to content

Purple Eyed Liars


Bobity.

Recommended Posts

My theories are heavily influenced by the “Great Empire of the Dawn were Dragonlords” theory I first head on History of Westeros, in collaboration with LmL. I have developed divergent views, particularly around the Long Night, but would have never thought of them without their work on the GEOTD.

I would encourage folks to listen to all recent History of Westeros casts, (and Radio Westeros) but the theories I build upon are described in:  House Dayne Part 2 , Asshai-by-The-Shadow, The Great Empire of the Dawn, Asshai & GEotD live Q&A and Chat

A TLDR of the conclusions that they made that I totally agree with and expand upon are:

 

  • An ancient huge civilization called the Great Empire of the Dawn (GEOTD) existed in the Yi Ti/Asshai region, and ended with the Long Night.

  • Some fused stone construction, which requires dragons, are attributed to the GEOTD, concluding that they were dragonlords.  In particular the Five Forts and the base of the Hightower on Battle Isle.

  • Links are established among the genetics of the Targaryen/Valyrians and GEOTD dragonlords through eye color analysis between Daenerys’s visions at the House of Undying and GEOTD emperors.  This leads to the theory that Houses Dayne and Hightower, who bear resemblance to Targaryens, are ancient GEOTD settlers.

  • Valyria was likely a colony of the GEOTD.

  • First Men were not a homogenous group, but a general label applied to pre Andal Westerosi inhabitants.

WOIAF Art Work

It's probably taboo, but my theories reference artwork in the WOIAF.  It is known that GRRM is concerned about attention to details in artwork depicting ASOIAF, like the proper depiction of the Iron Throne.  However, it appears that GRRM had direct influence on WOIAF artwork.  Read Ted Nasmith comments on details of the Eyrie art, “That too was a suggestion from GRRM”.  If GRRM was giving direction on the details of the art in WOIAF, I consider their depictions to be cannon.  People will disagree, oh well.  

General Theory

To date I have proposed two theories, first is that dragons require volcanic regions as a habitat, and that volcanic Marahai was the home of the GEOTD dragonlords before it erupted causing the Long Night.  If the Valyrians were any indication, it is possible that the majority of dragons and dragonlord were on Marahai when it erupted.  No ruins, no history, no evidence.  Studying dragon ecology has led me to only four prominent volcanic habitats. My theory is that the GEOTD dragonlords had a physical presence at the volcanic sites of Marahai, Valyria, Dragonstone and Winterfell during the Age of Heroes, before the Long Night.

Valyria

I am going to put forward an alternate Valyrian history that directly conflicts with the origin story which the Valyrians told.  My thinking is that since the Valyrians thrived on brutal conquest and enslavement of its neighbors, revisionist history would have come easily.

The GEOTD had existed for thousands of years, being a dragonlord culture they would have understanding of dragon habitat. If volcanic regions are necessary for dragons to lay eggs, they would be keen on any volcanic active regions.  Based on geographic distance I believe that Valyria would have been visited and colonized during the Dawn Age, before the GEOTD had arrived in Westeros.

Quote

These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. - The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria

I believe that the people referenced were the dragonlords from the GEOTD, and that they did not depart Valyria after arriving, but had departed from the annals due to Marahai erupting and destroying almost all direct evidence of their existence.  I believe that the Valyrians inherited their dragon affinity genetics from the GEOTD, and to keep that bloodline strong incest became a practice of the remaining dragonlord nobility.

According to the old tales of the Faceless Men, an old organization with Valyrian slave origins, dragons came to, not originating from Valyria.

Quote

If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came - A Feast for Crows - Arya II

Of course, all of this comes into direct conflict with the Valyrian origin story.

Quote

dragons sprang forth as the children of the Fourteen Flames   The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria

Another Fused Stone Analysis

I would like to acknowledge all of the work done in compiling all of the fused stone examples by others in the fandom, I am merely building upon other people’s work.

Quote

Davos had often heard it said that the wizards of Valyria did not cut and chisel as common masons did, but worked stone with fire and magic as a potter might work clay. - A Storm of Swords - Davos V

I think that the Valyrians, being a colony of an empire gone, had lost much of the capacity to artistically shape fused stone architecture as the GEOTD had done.  This analysis is based only on fused stone, including lower case dragonstone, no oily black.

Fused stone Valyria

We know actually little of the architectural details of Valyria other than a brief mention by Catelyn. Nowhere else are there any physical descriptions of Valyria structures.

Quote

But even the topless towers of Valyria could not have looked more beautiful to Catelyn Stark - A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

I propose that the architecture of topless towers and elaborate buildings as seen in the Ted Nasmith illustration from WOIAF are actually fused stone.  None of the buildings resemble brick and mortar construction and all the buildings appear to be made of the same material.  Putting the crystal blue spheres aside, the building material resembles Dragonstone, which is built entirely of fused stone.  There do seem to be different shades to the dark stone, with the top pinnacles of the tallest tower colored to depict a flame.  While there is no mention of any Valyrian fused stone work having different colors, coloring Valyrian steel would be a demonstrated related achievement.

I propose that these topless towers were built by GEOTD artisans, early in Valyria’s history, and the ability was lost with the Long Night and the end of the GEOTD.  I believe that the techniques to artistically mold fused stone, both in shape and color was also a lost craft.  Being a lesser version of a former greater empire would not have worked well with the Valryian manifest destiny narrative, so they lied to cover it up.

Fused stone projects attributed to the Valyrians outside of Valyria:

Volantis – Black Walls

Quote

the great oval of the Black Walls raised by the Freehold of Valyria in the first flush of its youthful expansion.  Two hundred feet tall, and so thick that six four-horse chariots can race along their battlements sided by side (as they do each year to celebrate the founding of the city), these seamless walls of fused black dragonstone, harder than steel or diamond, stand in mute testimony to Volantis’s origins as a military outpost.  - The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Volantis

Huge, massive very thick walls.  No artistic details, no towers, just a giant mass of poured formed fused stone.

Tyrosh

Quote

Tyrosh, an altogether harder city, began as a military outpost, as its inner walls of fused black dragonstone testify - The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh

 

Walls, no artistic details.

Naath

Quote

The Valyrians erected a fort there whose walls of fused dragonstone can still be seen - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Naath

Again...walls.

Essos - Fused Roads

Quote

During one stop, he used the time to have a closer look at the road. Tyrion knew what he would find: not packed earth, nor bricks, nor cobbles, but a ribbon of fused stone raised a half foot above the ground to allow rainfall and snowmelt to run off its shoulders. Unlike the muddy tracks that passed for roads in the Seven Kingdoms, the Valyrian roads were wide enough for three wagons to pass abreast, and neither time nor traffic marred them. They still endured, unchanging, four centuries after Valyria itself had met its Doom. He looked for ruts and cracks but found only a pile of warm dung deposited by one of the horses. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

While the scale of this infrastructure project is huge, the manipulation of the fused stone is consistent and simplistic. It's like pouring asphalt.

Volantis – Long Bridge

Quote

The gateway to the Long Bridge was a black stone arch carved with sphinxes, manticores, dragons and creatures stranger still.  Beyond the arch stretched the great span that the Valyrians had built at the height of their glory, it's fused stone roadway supported by massive piers. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

Only the roadway of the bridge had been singled out as being of fused stone construction, roughly the same technique required for building a fused stone road.

The black stone arch was carved, and therefore cannot be fused stone.  However, the arch may have meant to appear as fused stone, to imply lost artistic capacity.

All of the fused stone projects Valyrians completed while incredibly huge were a simplistic use of shaping fused rock.  Roads, bridge road beds and walls.  This is not to belittle the impacts of these constructions, roads that do not erode and walls that cannot be broken are the building blocks of an empire.

Fused stone projects attributed to the GEOTD:

Quote

Five Forts

Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west...but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold's rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

There is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

A thousand feet is higher than the Wall, and five times higher than the Volantis walls. A project possibly beyond the capability of the Valyrians.

Battle Isle

Quote

More troubling, and more worthy of consideration, are the arguments put forth by those who claim that the first fortress is not Valyrian at all. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

Quote

The labyrinthine nature of its interior architecture - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

Creating a labyrinthine interior would take considerable skill of using fused stone.

Quote

Such questions abound even to this day.  Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers, but none were ever found. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

Dragonstone

Quote

Our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria.  It was the Valyrians who raised this citadel- A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Lies I say.

There are a large number of quotes from the books that describe the fused stone architecture of Dragonstone, but this is the best.

Quote

He raised his eyes to gaze up at the walls. In place of merlons, a thousand grotesques and gargoyles looked down on him, each different from all the others; wyverns, griffins, demons, manticores, minotaurs, basilisks, hellhounds, cockatrices, and a thousand queerer creatures sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there. And the dragons were everywhere. The Great Hall was a dragon lying on its belly. Men entered through its open mouth. The kitchens were a dragon curled up in a ball, with the smoke and steam of the ovens vented through its nostrils. The towers were dragons hunched above the walls or poised for flight; the Windwyrm seemed to scream defiance, while Sea Dragon Tower gazed serenely out across the waves. Smaller dragons framed the gates. Dragon claws emerged from walls to grasp at torches, great stone wings enfolded the smith and armory, and tails formed arches, bridges, and exterior stairs. - A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Dragonstone was not built as a forward thinking invasion base for Westeros, nor a Valyrian steel storefront and slaving base as it was ultimately used.   The castle Davos describes, with building exteriors shaped as dragons, more resembles a temple to dragons, using extremely advanced fused stone capability.

There are a thousand unique twelve foot statues on the castle walls alone!!  Even the mundane rooms like stairwells and kitchens have attention to detail fused stone work that rivals all the roads and bridges built in terms of crafting.  Think of the number of Valyrian fused stone artisans and dragons that would be necessary to do the project.  It would have required a huge effort and the Dragonstone worksite would have been been crawling with dragons.

The work of Dragonstone does not resemble the simplistic poured stone walls and roads Valyrians had been built in its past.  Dragonstone bears closer resemblance to the impossibly huge Five Forts and labyrinth halls of Battle Isle, which I contend were techniques of the GEOTD.

Why no Sphinxes at Dragonstone?

If there is one mythical creature that is distinctly Valyrian in origin, it’s the Valyrian sphinx.  Here is a description beside a Valyrian fused stone road.

Quote

a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

We also find Valyrian sphinxes flanking the door of the Red Keeps council chambers.  This puts sphinxes directly connected to Targaryen inspired construction.

Quote

pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces. - A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

Tyrion also noticed sphinxes carved on the stone arch at the Long Bridge of Volantis, built by Valyrians.

Quote

The gateway to the Long Bridge was a black stone arch carved with sphinxes, manticores, dragons and creatures stranger still. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

How many mentions of sphinxes are their on Dragonstone among the thousand gargoyle statues? None.

Quote

a thousand grotesques and gargoyles looked down on him, each different from all the others; wyverns, griffins, demons, manticores, minotaurs, basilisks, hellhounds, cockatrices - A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Davos listed off a long list of gargoyle type creatures, but no sphinx.  

Between POV’s of Davos and Cressen there is a fair amount of descriptions of the fused stone architecture of Dragonstone, no mention of sphinxes.  Valyrian artisans had mixed sphinxes and gargoyles on the Long Bridge arch, why the absence at Dragonstone if it had been designed by Valyrian artisans?

Another review Ted Nasmith’s art of Valyria in the WOIAF shows sphinxes in the bottom right corner, which I propose are fused black stone.  However, these sphinxes do not have dragon anatomy and could not be considered Valyrian sphinxes.

Why is there no examples of fused stone Valyrian sphinxes in either Valyria or Dragonstone, I believe that the Valyrian Sphinx is an architectural style developed after the Long Night in Valyria. Valyrian artisans could not manipulate fused black stone beyond walls and roads, as that skill had also been lost with the GEOTD.

Let's go to Dragonstone….not.

Quote

Two centuries passed – centuries in which the coveted Valyrian steel began to trickle into the Seven Kingdoms more swiftly than before – though not swiftly enough for all the lords and kings who desired it.  And although the sight of a dragonlord flying high above Blackwater Bay was not unknown, it occurred more frequently as time passed.  Valyria felt its outpost was secured, and the dragonlords thus continued their schemes and intrigues on the native continent - The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

There is a clear contradiction in the last two sentences of this quote, did dragonlords sightings at Dragonstone become “more frequent” or did they go back to Essos “dragonlords thus continued their schemes and intrigues on the native continent.”?  If editing errors like “frequently” instead of “infrequently”, then it would make more sense.   Because of the ambiguity, I am working with the last sentence that all the dragonlords headed back to Valyria after being “not unknown” in the region.  Not exactly the dragon activity that would be necessary to build Dragonstone, assuming dragon fire was a crucial element of fused stone construction.

So according to the Valyrian narrative, who I contend are liars, after building this monumental fused stone dragon structures at Dragonstone, the dragonlords seem to lose interest.  

The exception are the Targaryens, when plans for permanently leaving Valyria are made based on prophetic dreams, Dragonstone with its volcano was the best choice for a dragonlord.

Quote

their rivals saw their flight to Dragonstone as an act of surrender, as cowardice. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

While these attitudes could be explained as rival family smack talk, it does speak to a disrespect of Dragonstone from other Valyrian dragonlords. It’s also telling that when the Doom had struck no other dragonlords were visiting the Targaryens at Dragonstone, those that had survived the Doom are reported to have been in Tyrosh, Lys and Qohor at the time.

Quote

 

It is said that some Valyrian dragonlords in Tyrosh and Lys were spared, but that in the immediate political upheaval following the Doom, they and their dragons were killed by the citizens of those Free Cities. - The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria


 

Quote

The histories of Qohor likewise claim that a visiting dragonlord, Aurion, raised forces from the Qohorik colonists and proclaimed himself the first Emperor of Valyria. He flew away on the back of his great dragon, with thirty thousand men following behind afoot, to lay claim to what remained of Valyria and to reestablish the Freehold. But neither Emperor Aurion nor his host were ever seen again. - The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

Valyrian dragonlords would have had business in Tyrosh and Qohor, but Lys was for pleasure.  If you were a Valyrian dragonlord looking for a vacation, where would you go?

Quote

Dragonstone, a bleak island citadel beneath a smoking mountain - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Or

Quote

Bathed by cool breezes, warmed by the sun, on a fertile island where palms and fruit trees grow in profusion, surrounded by blue-green waters teeming with fish, "Lys the Lovely" was founded as a retreat by the dragonlords of old Valyria, a paradise where they might refresh themselves with fine wines and sweet maids and soothing musics before returning to the fires of the Freehold. To this day, Lys remains "a feast for the senses, a balm for the soul." Its pillow houses are famed through all the world, and sunsets here are said to be more beautiful than anywhere else on earth. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh

(Yeesh, I hope Yandal got some kickbacks from some Lys noble for that advert.)

My thoughts are that if Valyrians were to develop a vacation hotspot, it would be over the top Vegas style.  Yet, we hear nothing of fused stone buildings, or any type of ornate fused stone structure on Lys.

So, within a two hundred year period the Valyrians decided to create an awe inspiring thousand fused stone statue studded castle, with towers shaped as dragons on a dreary island no Valyrian dragonlord was interested in visiting after the novelty wore off.

I don’t buy it. Neither does Tyrion.

Quote

The Freehold's grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself. Odd, that. Dragonstone is no more than a rock. The wealth was farther west, but they had dragons. Surely they knew that it was there. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

How old is Dragonstone?

Fused black stone does not erode or otherwise age, making it difficult to date by looking at the structure alone, making it hard to date Dragonstone by just looking at it.

Quote

Dragonstone had been the westernmost outpost of Valyrian power for two centuries The Conquest – WOIAF

Valyrians had been on Dragonmont two hundred years before the Doom of Valyria, the Doom having occurred at 114 BC.  This places the Valyrian founding of Dragonstone at sometime after 314 BC, six hundred and fourteen years from the events of the books.

Six hundred years is a long time, and any castle that age would be considered old in the real world, but I feel comparisons are necessary for context.

Quote

The Freys were not an old house.  They had risen to prominence some six hundred years ago, their line originating from a petty lord who raised a rickety bridge across the narrowest part of the Green Fork - The World of Ice and Fire - The Riverlands: House Tully

These are the Frey’s, whom most nobility see as new money upstarts.

In fact, if Dragonstone is only roughly six hundred years old, there are only a handful of castles in Westeros which are of more recent construction; The Twins, Harrenhal, Summerhall and the Red Keep.  High Tide and Whitewalls were also newer castles, but High Tide was burnt during the Dance of Dragons, and Whitewalls had been pulled apart on the orders of Lord Bloodraven for its role in the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

There are probably more but I imagine not many, and no castles of great significance.  Even the seat of House Manderly, an Andal family which fled the Reach to the North and built New Castle, is probably several hundreds years older than a Valyrian built Dragonstone.

Quote

A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. - A Dance with Dragons - Davos III

However, there are a number of descriptions of Dragonstone that share one word to describe it's age, ancient.

Quote

Gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him.  A hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. - A Clash of Kings - Prologue

 

Quote

Dragonstone, the ancient island citadel of House Targaryen - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

 

 

Quote

flickering orange light fell through the ancient iron bars from the torch  A Storm of Swords - Davos III

Fused black stone Dragonstone is immune to weathering, but even as Maesters Cressen, and Gyldayn or Gerold, whomever wrote The Conquest, is aware of the “fact” that the castle was built less than 600 years, their internal thoughts betrays a contradiction in the use of the word ancient.

As for Davos, he is describing the iron bars of his cell, which are not of fused stone material and could therefore be one of the few material elements in Dragonstone Castle which could be reliably dated.

Other structures on the island of Dragonstone, not built of fused stone, are also depicted to be ancient.

Quote

A weathered little inn sat on the end of the stone pier....out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. - A Clash of Kings - Davos I

What constitutes an ancient fortress?  Let’s go with these:

·         Winterfell

·         Storm’s End

·         Casterly Rock

·         Raventree Hall

·         High Tower

·         Pyke

·         Nightfort

If Dragonstone had been built by the GEOTD, then it would rightly be considered ancient.

Obvious counterpoints

My theory is that as the Valyrian Empire expanded west mounted dragons would have been drawn to volcanic Dragonmont, two hundred years before the Doom.  There they discovered an ancient GEOTD fused stone stronghold and immediately occupied it, then claimed it was built by them.  A very believable story since they are the only known culture who could conceivably construct it.

While I feel confident of my theory, I feel that I need to address obvious critiques.  

If Dragonstone predated the Long Night, why was nobody living there before the Valyrians arrived?

Dragonstone is a very impractical castle.  On the side of an active volcano, there is no mention of agriculture and it probably does not have a clean water source.  If occupied everything would need to be imported, much like Asshai. No real wealth is created on Dragonstone, so you  would need to be independently wealthy, or dragonlords, to occupy it.  It would make a kick ass pirate lair though, my thoughts are Justin Milk-Eye, an ancient Massey pirate before he took the Massey’s Hook.

For these reasons, I propose that aside from being occupied by Valyrian dragonlords and the royalty of Westeros that Dragonstone had remained abandoned for the impracticalities of the location itself.  

Would there not be any historical accounts of a fantastical dragon shaped castle in Blackwater Bay before the Valyrian arrival?

Prior to the arrival of the Valyrians on Westeros Dragonmont was a very remote location from any major kingdom.  The Crownlands did not exist, Blackwater Bay at the time had a single real community, Duskendale.  

Residents along Blackwater Bay were on the edge of kingdoms, particularly Storm’s End and the Riverlands, being conquered by distant kings was a constant theme.  In fact, Ageons first maneuvers of the Conquest was over Storm’s Ends disingenuous offering of the Blackwater Rush, as the land was largely lawless.  Before the Valyrian arrival Riverland, Ironborn and Stormlord armies had claimed the region as their own, bringing war and instability to the communities along its shores, all rather ignoring what was within Blackwater Bay itself.

I suggest is that if there was knowledge of a strange castle made of fused stone on the side of a volcanic island, it would have been local.  So, let’s look at who was local on the Blackwater prior to the arrival of the Valyrians around 314 BC.  The shores of Blackwater Bay near the Gullet are rocky, The Whispers and Massey’s Hook being less than ideal ports could not have supported a large local fleet.  Residents of Driftmark and Claw Isle would have been aware of Dragonstone had it already existed.  They would have required ships for supplies and are in close proximity to the volcanic isle.  The current families on these islands are the Velaryons of Driftmark and the Celtigars of Claw Isle, whom are cited often as being of Valyrian heritage, with the purple eyes and silver hair to prove it.  This would have placed their settlement at 600 years past, previous inhabitants of the islands unknown.  

However, lore around the Driftwood Throne puts the Velaryons in direct contact with the Merling King.

Quote

Corlys Velaryon became a lord after his grandsire's death and used his wealth to raise a new seat, High Tide, to replace the damp, cramped castle Driftmark and house the ancient Driftwood Throne—the high seat of the Velaryons, which legend claims was given to them by the Merling King to conclude a pact. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

Again, the word ancient, this time to describe the Driftwood Throne.  There are additional references to merlings in Blackwater Bay, Davos had washed up on stranded rocks bearing their name.

Quote

I swam beneath the chain and washed ashore on a spear of the merling king - A storm of swords - Davos ll

If there was once a Merling King in Blackwater Bay, it would have been long before the arrival of the Andals, nevermind the Valyrians.  Merling King stories would be more Dawn Age/Age of Heroes, during the time of the GEOTD.

Lies could have started and sustained the story that the Velaryons had arrived at Driftmark with the Valyrians and were not more ancient residents.  However objects retain history, and the lore of the Driftwood Chairs origins is harder to manipulate.  I believe it points to the Velaryon’s being of GEOTD ancestry.

What of the Citadel and the maesters, should there not be any accounts?

(Places inch thick tin helm on head)

It’s a cover up I say!!!  Notice how Yandals work is completely void of pre Valyrian history on Blackwater Bay!!  There is a Crownland map, but it’s as if nothing happened prior to the dragonlords arrival …..what are they hiding!?!!  How long have the Velaryons been living on Driftmark!?!  Who is pulling the strings at the Citadel!?!?

Quote

The Hightowers were instrumental in the founding of the Citadel and continue to protect it to this day - Feast of Crows Appendix

That’s right, the Hightowers are covering up for their very old purple eyed Velaryons kinsman.  Who are the Hightowers anyways, what was Uthor’s old name before he built the tower?!?!  What are they hiding and whose lies are they spreading?

Quote

Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

Getting their cues from the purple eyed lying Valyrians directly!!!

UNTIL THOSE LICKSPITTLE GREY SHEEP ARCHMAESTERS ARE REPLACED WITH TRULY INDEPENDENT FREE THINKERS LIKE MARYWN THE HIGHTOWER CENSORSHIP OF THE CITADEL WILL NOT CEASE AND LIES WILL CONTINUE TO FLOW FROM OLDTOWN!!!!

(Removes inch thick tin helm from head)

If recent real life history has taught us anything, false information can easily be pushed upon a population to impact their understanding of the facts.  It would only take a few adult generations of dragonlord Valyrians telling the locals “We just arrived and built Dragonstone” for the story to be accepted as truth.

Dragonstone Recap

I propose that the Valryians did not build Dragonstone, but had been built by their predecessors, the GEOTD, thousands of years before the Valyrians arrived in Westeros.

  • No Valyrian Sphinxes at Dragonstone.

  • Belief that the Valyrians did not have the skills to create fused stone ability to build Dragonstone or the toppless towers of Valyria.

  • Multiple use of the word “ancient” to describe Dragonstone, which if Valyrian built would be relatively new.

  • The Valyrians had limited interest in Dragonstone, which is at odds with the efforts which would have been necessary to build such an impressive fortress.

The surprising rarity of gargoyle architecture

From all the descriptions of all the locations in the ASOIAF do you know how many are described as having gargoyle architecture?  Three, Dragonstone Castle itself, a weathered inn on the Dragonstone shore and the First Keep of Winterfell.  Check it out

Two locations which on the surface have no connections, other than volcanic activity, share a rather unique artistic style.

Dragonstone

Quote

a thousand grotesques and gargoyles looked down on him, each different from all the others; wyverns, griffins, demons, manticores, minotaurs, basilisks, hellhounds, cockatrices A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Weathered Inn

Quote

A weathered little inn sat on the end of the stone pier...out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. A Clash of Kings - Davos I

First Keep of Winterfell

Quote

Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep - A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Notice the similarity in the descriptions of the weathered inn gargoyle on Dragonstone and the First Keep versions?  Considering these two locations are the only examples of gargoyle statues that can display weathered aging, I propose that they were all built in the same era.  

Other grotesques

What exactly is a gargoyle?  According to Wikipedia, “a carved or formed grotesque”.  Therefore a gargoyle is not a creature itself, but a depiction of creatures as grotesques, which Davos upholds as he defines the list of creatures as gargoyles.

Using this definition, as Tyrion crossed the Long Bridge in Volantis with Ser Jorah I propose that he was gazing up on carved gargoyles.

Quote

The gateway to the Long Bridge was a black stone arch carved with sphinxes, manticores, dragons and creatures stranger still. - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

I would propose that the architecture was also in Valyria, considering that the Long Bridge was Valyrian built.  To corroborate, reviewing Ted Nasmith art of Valyria in the Valyrians Children chapter of WOIAF you will see many examples of gargoyles on towers, which I also speculate is GEOTD fused stone construction.

Who built the First Keep?

Quote

The oldest of these - a long-abandoned tower, round and squat and covered with gargoyles- has become known as the First Keep.  Some take this to mean that it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet had definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps.  Round towers came sometime later. - The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell

So, by this logic, the oldest Winterfell tower cannot be older than the arrival of the Andals because it's round, yet Winterfell is said to be the home of the Starks since the Dawn Age?!?!  Straight up contradiction.  Some say that since Winterfell is a mashup of different eras of construction that the gargoyles of the First Keep were not part of the original construction.  However, Bran’s observation that they were shapeless from rain indicate otherwise.  

Big question then.  How did the ancient builder of the First Keep of Winterfell, a man possibly named Bran, come to have been influenced by a gargoyle architectural design not to be built on Dragonstone for thousands of years?  I theorize that the dragonlord GEOTD had a presence at Winterfell during the Age of Heroes and built the First Keep.  Much how the Valyrians had lost the ability to artistically shape fused stone, Westeros lost the wisdom of round towers with the Long Night.

Winterfell, Dragonstone and Valyria are all volcanic and potentially all good dragon habitats, they would therefore have been of interest to the GEOTD dragonlords on pre eruption Marahai.  An empire that would have had influence anywhere dragons could fly, and built with a gargoyle architectural style.

Are my theories controversial, and fairly crackpot, you betcha.  However, there are inconsistencies in the Valyrian history that I believe are obscuring a larger hole in Westerosi history, the direct influences of GEOTD culture and blood magic during the Age of Heroes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

In the Valyrians' defense, the roads that they built stretched thousands upon thousands of miles and their main purpose was transportation. If we look at it from a practical point of view, is it really necessary to ornate transportation roads (that stretch out for thousands of miles) with statues?

As for the Black Walls of Volantis and Tyrosh, both cities were originally not meant to be cities, they were military outposts and the Black Walls were meant to secure the bases inside and probably something else. Is it really necessary to ornate giant walls, whose purpose is to defend a military base?

The houses and palaces in Valyria were ornately made because they were the private property where (wealthy) people lived and people love to ornate their homes with all sort things, in part because they personally want their homes to look nice and in part because they want people to see that they have a nice home.

 

I will however say that I actually do like your theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have had similar ideas myself. Namely that there are proto Valyrian families in Westeros.  And i agree that these people could have been a part of the GEOTD. I think personally that house Tarth might be of this blood too, and in fact are possibly a split off of House Dayne, or should I say that the Dayne's may be in my view a split off of house Tarth/Morne Anyway that is my own crackpot from late last year .

If we take a look at Dragonstone, Driftmark, and Claw Isle they are a series of islands on the coast in the narrow sea. And then next in that series of islands is Tarth, the Dayne's too live on an island as do the Hightowers.  And whilst we know that Dragonstone has volcanic activity I wonder if basically all those islands in the narrow sea may be/have once been volcanic. 

One thing I disagree with though is this notion that the Valyrians couldn't make the artistically fused stone work we see on Dragonstone. I'm afraid you missed one of the examples of fused stone out of your OP. The Red Temple in Volantis!

When I first read ADWD I was struck by how similar the Red Temple sounded in it's architecture to Dragonstone. And I proposed a theory about it and the R'hllorists. namely that the Temple was made by Dragonlords and the religion was practised in Valyria. But this point we'd also gotten Mellisandre's POV which revealed that there had been a "before" Asshai, and that she'd been a slave. The close reader also catches that she was likely one of the temple prostitutes at the Red temple in Volantis.  Her tears were of flame referencing the tattooing of slaves in Volantis and the logic that if prostituted slaves bear tattoos of tears on their cheeks and the Fiery Hands have hands of flames on their faces then a prostitute in the Red Temples tears would be of flame.  

Anyway, i digress. When TWOIAF came out in 2014 it turned out that I was indeed correct the Red Temple in Volantis is listed in a book called Remnants of the Dragonlords and was indeed created by the Valyrians. It does also btw have a hundred different hues of red-orange and yellow in the stonework and so yes, you are correct they can indeed fuse colour into the stone when doing the working of it. But if the Temple in Volantis is made by Valyrians we can not say that they did not have the ability to do it. I was right that the faith of R'hllor was practised in valyria too, but got it wrong in that the faith was practised by slaves whereas I had wondered if R'hlor had been one of the Valyrian pantheon of gods and that was not the case. Just that the religion was one of many practised there.  

However, I do think that you are correct in the Valyrians being remnants of the GEOTD people and that various Westerosi houses are also. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  1. Somewhat of a tangent: I've always drawn a blank on what fused stone would look like. A regular google and google image search raised more questions. Vitrified forts seems like it's similar to what's implied by the text. Any thoughts?
  2. I think it's one of the more interesting theories in the forum. Most theories on here here are usually created in service to a specific character's (their favorite) cause. Your theory is more overarching and calls into question the accuracy of the histories everyone seems to recite... which also happens to be a reoccurring theme of the series anyways.
  3. We already know there's at least one character that believes the Citadel is based around a conspiracy. Knowing the Hightowers were instrumental in its establishment and continue to maintain it to this day is certainly a red flag to at least raise an eyebrow. I pointed out in a very unrelated topic recently that I always thought that they were an interesting house and very present in Westerosi history since the conquest... Especially tied to the Faith and the Targaryens
    1. Ceryse Hightower - Maegor's first bride
    2. Morgan Hightower - part of the Warrior's Son; only faith militant member pardoned by Maegor
    3. Otto Hightower - Hand for King Viserys I, who likely brokered the marriage for
    4. Alicent Hightower - Viserys I's second wife, who give him many sons that eventually rivaled his chosen heir, Rhaenyra (aka Dance of the Dragons)
    5. Jon Hightower - Hand to Aegon IV (the Unworthy)
    6. Various High Septons have been Hightowers, don't feel like listing them. ;)

Wait a second... where have the Hightowers been all of this story? They're supposedly one of the most powerful and important vassals to the Tyrells! They weren't even present during Renly's advance on King's Landing. Perhaps they aren't popular at court anymore since they were tied to Targaryens (and are likely assumed to be Targaryen loyalists), but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be shunned at this point. Tyrell's were loyalists as well but they don't hesitate to intertwine themselves with the new regimes of kings. Now that the Tyrells are present at court, where have the Hightowers disappeared to?

I'm more inclined to think that Hightowers figured heavily in the histories to influence/manipulate the Targaryen's. Possibly to maintain the conspiracy you've provided evidence for, but also to eliminate a certain weapon they've maintained as family: dragons. The first Hightower that married to a king never provided any children for Maegor. When the Hightowers manage such a match a second time the king has already designated a female heir due to his lack of sons. I naturally assumed they instigated the Dance of Dragons as a basic play for power, as most great houses end up doing. But, considering that the war itself led to the decline of Targaryen dragons, it seems a little more than coincidental that one of the two factions was heavily laden with Hightowers (the Greens). And then we learn that the Citadel may be a conspiracy of anti-dragon old men, and that the Hightowers have funded and maintained them since their establishment as an order.

My opinion is that the Hightowers will become major players in the plot once we learn more about what is really going on at the Citadel. I think we can go ahead and assume that this will be coming from the POV of Sam during his studies.

Am I now finally a member of a "crackpot", "tinfoil" theory? I believe so. So thank you for that!

Edit:

It seems like another person has drawn similar conclusions as you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...