Did Brandon Stark rape Ashara Dayne?

[The Mountain that Cries]

Why is this really question cause some Lady is pissed she is not a Stark by now. We have no real textual evidence of any real from. All we know of Brandon is he thought he was a badass and alot of people that think they are badass pull tail. That does not make him a raper.

[Frey Kings]

Ned lead to this because he was too scared to ask Ashara for a dance. I always thought it was Brandon and not Ned's child....

[MostlyMoody]

On 5/27/2017 at 7:19 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

Actually no there are not clues of him being a rapist.

Barry said nothing to imply that Brandon raped Ashara. He said that Ashara have looked to a Stark. Which seems to imply that a Stark had defended her and not raped her.

 

Yes, there are clues left of him being a rapist. You successfully omitted all but one of them when quoting my post. Regarding Barry, I was talking about him believing that she was dishonored by someone at Harrenhal + Brandon being a macho/take what I want guy + the drama surrounding a Starks and Ashara at the tourney. It at least warrants suspicion.

Also not relevant to the point you are trying to make but the 'looked to Stark' quote is in context of Barristan regretting he could not win the tourney and crown her Queen of Love and Beauty, so Ashara looked to Stark instead.

As I mentioned in my previous post I am not saying Brandon was a rapist, but it is implied and will probably never be revealed. I just like to keep an open mind about things.

[Crona]

I've always had this tinfoil idea that Arthur and Ashara were incestuous, and we're getting it on. Benjen somehow walked in and they blamed the whole thing on him then threatened him to keep silent. Then after the rebellion Ned was not giving straight answers if Arthur had died or not, and Benjen decided to go to the Wall.

Tinfoil off, I don't think she was raped or had sex with anyone and she was just dancing with people. And they had made up that gossip for why she committed suicide.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On Invalid Date at 5:49 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is basically weak as shit. Robert may not remember the women he bedded, but that is because Roberts beds everyone that has a skirt on. And I doubt he even asked many of them their names. But Ned isn't like that and if he had lost his virginity to one of the most beautiful maids in the realm who comes from a majorly important family then he likely would have confided that in his best mate, who is likely to remember it. I mean I know I can name the boys that my best few friends lost their virginity to and that was well over 20 odd years ago now. And trust me at the time I was smashed out of my brains on a mixture of booze, speed, LSD, magic mushrooms, grass & E. for like basically the entire 90's. With a fair bit of coke and a smattering of wobbly eggs, and various downers thrown in for good measure. 

Robert took part in one drinking game on one of the days of the tourney, which took place over several days and after which both Ned & Robert returned to the Eyrie together, where frankly had little Ned managed to bed Ashara Dayne I think even shy little Ned would have mentioned that to his best buddy. 

The Weirwood Eyes , greetings , weak as sh... ? Perhaps everybody may not have your eidetic memory and do you really think Ned is a person who kisses and tell .

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 29/5/2017 at 7:29 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Yes, there are clues left of him being a rapist.

No there are not. Bitter lady Dustin never said that he was raping anyone, heck she even told that she was willing to have sex with him. It's much more likely that he wanted to have sex with them and they wanted to have sex with him in order to use his power and becoming the next Lady of Winterfell.

On 29/5/2017 at 7:29 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Regarding Barry, I was talking about him believing that she was dishonored by someone at Harrenhal + Brandon being a macho/take what I want guy + the drama surrounding a Starks and Ashara at the tourney. It at least warrants suspicion.

If it was Brandon he would had told so, it's much more likely that she had sex and he thought it as dishonoring or that it was Aerys the one who did it. 

On 29/5/2017 at 7:29 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Also not relevant to the point you are trying to make but the 'looked to Stark' quote is in context of Barristan regretting he could not win the tourney and crown her Queen of Love and Beauty, so Ashara looked to Stark instead.

Actually it looks like she turned to a stronger guardian than Barri and he was bitter about that and since she didn't turned to her brother it seems that it was a Targ the man who wronged her.

 

Also it seems that your idea is based on the fact that he is described as a dominant male. Being a dominant male, or liking sex, doesn't mean that someone is a rapist.

[maudisdottir]

Another misconception is that people say she "turned to" Stark when the text says "looked to", which are not the same thing. "Turned to" implies for help or comfort, whereas "looked to" has a wider meaning, in that she also could have looked to Stark for sex/romance (which is what Barry was lamenting as he ruminates on not winning the tourney and crowning Ashara QOLAB himself). If Barry had said "might she have turned to me instead of Stark?" it would take on a different meaning entirely, for both him and Ashara (and "Stark").

Re Lyanna being "Stark" - if Barristan had won the tourney and crowned Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty, might she have looked to him instead of Lyanna? Doesn't make sense. Why would Barristan not winning preclude him from being Ashara's confidant? Somehow giving her the rose crown would have made him worthy of hearing all about her being "dishonoured" - not buying it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

56 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Another misconception is that people say she "turned to" Stark when the text says "looked to", which are not the same thing. "Turned to" implies for help or comfort, whereas "looked to" has a wider meaning, in that she also could have looked to Stark for sex/romance (which is what Barry was lamenting as he ruminates on not winning the tourney and crowning Ashara QOLAB himself). If Barry had said "might she have turned to me instead of Stark?" it would take on a different meaning entirely, for both him and Ashara (and "Stark").

Re Lyanna being "Stark" - if Barristan had won the tourney and crowned Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty, might she have looked to him instead of Lyanna? Doesn't make sense. Why would Barristan not winning preclude him from being Ashara's confidant? Somehow giving her the rose crown would have made him worthy of hearing all about her being "dishonoured" - not buying it.

You are right.

Another thing is that if Brandon had harmed her wouldn't Arthur had reacted? If anyone had harmed her, based on Arthur's lack of reaction it would seem that a Targ would had been a much more probable culpable than a Stark.

[SFDanny]

19 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

You are right.

Another thing is that if Brandon had harmed her wouldn't Arthur had reacted? If anyone had harmed her, based on Arthur's lack of reaction it would seem that a Targ would had been a much more probable culpable than a Stark.

The language of diplomacy. Rhaegar reacts. He tells the world he has an interest in the "Stark's" sister. And one of them goes crazy. 

What are we told of Harrenhal? We are told it is one huge extravagant ruse to bring as many of the lords of the Seven Kingdom together in order to gain support for a great council to remove Aerys. But Aerys attends, and he sends the first message.

Aerys "honors" Jaime by making him a member of the Kingsguard. It is a great honor, on the surface, but a crippling blow beneath. The subtle move honors Jaime, but robs Tywin of his heir, stopping at the last minute the plans to marry Jaime into the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance. It forces Tywin out as Hand. All of which is done publicly as an honor that Tywin can only publicly give his thanks to his king for doing, and, himself, stay away.

So, what does the Stark representative do after that beginning? He seduces the sister of Rhaegar's best friend, and companion of his wife. Not in pursuit of an honorable alliance - he is committed to a marriage into a family Aerys has just robbed of prospect of an alliance with House Lannister. It looks to be Brandon's message for Rhaegar's aims. A message saying he and his family will walk away from Rhaegar's offer, and do so in a way that dishonors the crown prince, his wife, and House Dayne, along with Ser Arthur, and of course, foremost the Lady Ashara, who must leave her position beside Elia after this. This is not an act of sexual violence. It is stiletto in the back to Rhaegar's hopes. Done subtlety, but clear intent of dishonoring the prince and his party. It uses Ashara as an object lesson.

To this Rhaegar sends his own message. He not only knocks Brandon off his horse, but he honors his sister as his Queen of Love and Beauty. Not just an honor of her a beautiful young woman, but a personal statement of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna's future. In particular her future marriage to Robert Baratheon. He symbolically places himself between the match, but in a way, again, that on the surface, "honors" Lyanna.

The politics of Westeros on display over the course of the short days it took to stage a tourney. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

30 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

snip

So Brandon was the "evil" one and Rhaegar was the "good" one. Again. How original.

But basically that is a lot of wishful thinking turning fan fiction. There is no where in the text that people have claimed Brandon to be a rapist, enjoying sex isn't equal with being a rapist. Let alone Rhaegad "defending" Ashara. Why he should do it anyway? Why Arthur couldn't do it?

[SFDanny]

15 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

So Brandon was the "evil" one and Rhaegar was the "good" one. Again. How original.

But basically that is a lot of wishful thinking turning fan fiction. There is no where in the text that people have claimed Brandon to be a rapist, enjoying sex isn't equal with being a rapist. Let alone Rhaegad "defending" Ashara. Why he should do it anyway? Why Arthur couldn't do it?

Who said anything about "evil" or "good." I'm merely retelling the story with the politics put in. The only speculation on my part is the assumption it is Brandon who seduces Ashara, not Ned. Someone fathered that stillborn child, and given Ser Barristan's relationship to Ned, I'm betting on Brandon. There is a great deal of political intrigue going on at Harrenhal. Who you think is evil and who you think is good, is not my purpose in my version of the story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Who said anything about "evil" or "good." I'm merely retelling the story with the politics put in. The only speculation on my part is the assumption it is Brandon who seduces Ashara, not Ned. Someone fathered that stillborn child, and given Ser Barristan's relationship to Ned, I'm betting on Brandon. There is a great deal of political intrigue going on at Harrenhal. Who you think is evil and who you think is good, is not my purpose in my version of the story.

Well I may over reacted. But my point still stands, the way you say it it seems like Brandon took advantage of Ashara. From all we know she could had tried to seduce him. Also the fact that Barri thinks of it as a dishonoring doesn't have to be true.

[SFDanny]

13 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Well I may over reacted. But my point still stands, the way you say it it seems like Brandon took advantage of Ashara. From all we know she could had tried to seduce him. Also the fact that Barri thinks of it as a dishonoring doesn't have to be true.

Leaving aside the question of good and evil for the moment, let me say about Ashara, I don't think it matters that she was willing, or even if she initiated the affair, in terms of what the effect of it happening in the open and with a man pledged to another. It is likely the reason she has to leave the court as one of Elia's companions. Brandon is not a Targaryen, and he isn't looking for a second wife, nor is he willing to set aside his promise to the Tullys to wed Catelyn. So, I don't think Ser Barristan is stating anything other than the facts when he thinks she was dishonored by what happened at Harrenhal. The traditional double standard applies here as well. Brandon can flaunt an affair before his betrothed's bannermen and the rest of Westerosi nobility and no one is going to call him accountable for his actions.

Except, I believe Rhaegar does. It is not just an affair that dishonors Ashara and Catelyn personally, but it also touches the royal household, and as such is monumentally disrespectful to Rhaegar and Elia. Which is my point. Brandon is sending a message of disrespect in response to Rhaegar's hoped for support for a Great Council. I don't believe it is an accident he does so. The Starks have no intention of supporting any such plan.

Which, I believe, places Rhaegar's action of naming Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty in a different light than just that of a lovestruck prince. Lovestruck he may be, or may become in later days, but his action sends a powerful political message. He rejects the Stark plans of a marriage of Lyanna to Robert in not just symbolic terms. He, in effect, says he will stand with his father against the attempts to create an alliance of High Lords against Aerys's rule. I believe that is the politics behind his "honoring" Lyanna.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The first time I saw this theory suggested was in an AMA Adam Whitehead did  a while back.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4195qc/spoilers_all_hi_this_is_adam_whitehead_ask_me/

I'm not the biggest fan of Barristan, but he grew up in the Dornish Marches, and spent several decades in King's Landing. Brandon and Ashara having sex probably wasn't dishonorable to him, even if he was jealous. This does leave open the possibility that there was some degree of foul play involved.

On the other hand, I think another way of interpreting this is that Ashara may well have fallen in love with Brandon, and hoped or expected him to end his betrothal to Cat to be with her instead. We saw essentially the same thing happen with Barbrey -- she clearly thought that Brandon was going to marry her (and still thinks he wanted to, by the looks of it), but is there any reason to really think that he was genuine in this? Brandon's described as being the "wild wolf" who "was never shy about taking what he wanted." If anything, he sounds quite a bit like Robert, who would, according to Ned, "swear undying love and forget them before evenfall." So my guess as to how Ashara was dishonored was likely not because she had sex, but rather because Brandon abandoned her afterwards. Now she was alone and pregnant, her child would be a bastard and have to face challenges unique to bastards, even in Dorne, and any promises Brandon may have made her had already been broken. That probably garnered a great deal of sympathy from Barristan, and aside from wanting to be with her on a personal level, he also likely wished he could have spared her that experience.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 8/6/2017 at 1:59 PM, SFDanny said:

and he isn't looking for a second wife, nor is he willing to set aside his promise to the Tullys to wed Catelyn. 

Who said that Ashara wanted to get married with him?

In any case there is absolutely no clue that Rhaegar somehow avenged Ashara while he was dishonoring Lyanna. That is a passive aggressive way of blaming Brandon for everything and make him a bad person.

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Who said that Ashara wanted to get married with him?

I didn't make that assumption. The dishonor occurs regardless of Ashara's wants. Perhaps I should again make clear we are talking about the conduct - most likely a romantic affair between Brandon and Ashara - that is public at Harrenhal. Not meaning the tourney had to have discovered them in flagrant delicto, but the affair became widely enough known there to become a dishonor to Ashara's role as companion to Princess Elia. Ashara has to leave her service to Elia, and we don't know why that is, but the pregnancy Ser Barristan tells us of is the best clue to why that we have. Unmarried pregnant women do not normally serve as a companion to royalty. 

14 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

In any case there is absolutely no clue that Rhaegar somehow avenged Ashara while he was dishonoring Lyanna. That is a passive aggressive way of blaming Brandon for everything and make him a bad person.

Not while, but following. We do have the clear evidence of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. An act that "honors" Lyanna by the prince publicly proclaiming his interest in her and her future marriage - a daughter of a High Lord already promised to his cousin, the Lord of Storm's End. Does that make him good or bad? I don't think it indicates either. It makes him a skilled politician; something we have evidence for in his factional wars at court, and in his intrigue in the calling of the Harrenhal tourney itself. And we do have abundant evidence of the growing alliance of High Lords in what strongly appears to be a power bloc in opposition to the Targaryens.

The same can be said for Brandon. This does not mean he is good or bad. It is a view of him acting out his political interests in rejecting Rhaegar's call for a great council. The Starks have a different agenda than Rhaegar. One can be sympathetic to what Rickard and Maester Walys are trying to do, or they can see it as treason to their king. Is treason to a mad king who forced oaths of fealty out of the old kings of Westeros through threats of dragonfire a good or bad thing? You choose. Because Martin wants us to realize the "grayness" of his characters, not to see them as good or bad. They are both.

Brandon is, to me, certainly both a man of honor and an arrogant fool. He believes he can take what he wants, and too often acts without much in the way of strategic thinking. He also dies trying to save his father from a horrible death. He wants to protect the rights of his house, and is willing to sacrifice his own feelings to advance its interests, and to follow his father's wishes. A "gray man" with both good and bad in him. I think his treatment of Ashara probably falls on the "darker side of gray."

[Crona]

What if the dishonor was something like starting rumors or saying something lewd to her and she confronted one of the Starks?

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

What if the dishonor was something like starting rumors or saying something lewd to her and she confronted one of the Starks?

Where did the stillborn daughter come from?

[Crona]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Where did the stillborn daughter come from?

I don't she was ever pregnant, it was just a rumor along with her brother dying to explain why she committed suicide 

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Crona said:

I don't she was ever pregnant, it was just a rumor along with her brother dying to explain why she committed suicide 

What is the purpose of this rumor, and what evidence do you think points to Ser Barristan's knowledge being false? I would remind you that Selmy, as the new Lord Commander of Robert's Kingsguard sits on the small council and would hear any report of such happenings when the council is informed of it. It is always possible we are dealing with news intended to throw people of the track, but who would do this in this case? Unless, of course, you think Ashara faked her death. Selmy was at Harrenhal and presumably knows of the "dishonor" that occurred there. He was a member of the Kingsguard, and likely would know why Ashara left. He thinks she had a still born daughter, and is placed to know the truth of much of these "rumors."