Free folk Daemon

Did Brandon Stark rape Ashara Dayne?

108 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

I've always got the impression that Barristan meant Ashara went to "Stark" as comfort after someone dishonoured her.

That's what Barristan said yeah, a lot of people get that mixed up. 

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Actually, Barristan said "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

I wonder how much time it took GRRM to come up with a verb that wouldn't reveal what exactly happened.

 

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1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

I've always got the impression that Barristan meant Ashara went to "Stark" as comfort after someone dishonoured her.

 

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's what Barristan said yeah, a lot of people get that mixed up. 

That is one way to interpret it, and I think it is probably how GRRM expects us to read it, but I am not convinced that is actually the case.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Brandon or anyone else raped Ashara. 

Quote

"But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

There are a number of ways to interpret all this information, but I am currently inclined to interpret Selmy's beliefs as follows.

1. Ashara became interested in a Stark.
2. Ashara hooked up with that Stark at Harrenhal
3. Ashara was impregnated with a daughter by that Stark
4. Ashara became mad with grief because she lost that daughter to stillbirth, and perhaps as well because she lost that Stark
5. Ashara threw herself from a tower

In the above scenario, I favor Ned being "that Stark" over Brandon. I currently lean toward an outline along these lines:

Ned and Ashara hit it off at Harrenhal and hooked up during the tourney, when both were single. Ned and Ashara somehow found an opportunity to hook up during the war, and conceived a daughter, perhaps even after he had already agreed to marry or already married Cat. Ashara lost the daughter to stillbirth. Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, having killed Ashara's brother Arthur. Ned left Ashara for good and departed north to honor his marriage to Cat and hide Jon.

In this scenario, Ashara's losses rapidly hit her one after the other. She loses her child with the man she loves, she loses her brother at the hands of the man she loves, and she loses the man she loves as he leaves north to do his duty with his new wife and family.

Though perhaps not without its issues, this makes more sense to me than Ashara living with the grief of Brandon's death for over a year, and her daughter's death for a number of months, only to wait until after Ned comes to Starfall to kill herself.

Of course, there is the chance that Selmy is giving us some incorrect information, or that Selmy's information is correct and I am misinterpreting it. But this is what I lean toward for now.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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11 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Ned and Ashara hit it off at Harrenhal and hooked up during the tourney, when both were single. Ned and Ashara somehow found an opportunity to hook up during the war, and conceived a daughter, perhaps even after he had already agreed to marry or already married Cat. Ashara lost the daughter to stillbirth. Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, having killed Ashara's brother Arthur. Ned left Ashara for good and departed north to honor his marriage to Cat and hide Jon.

In this scenario, Ashara's losses rapidly hit her one after the other. She loses her child with the man she loves, she loses her brother at the hands of the man she loves, and she loses the man she loves as he leaves north to do his duty with his new wife and family.

Though perhaps not without its issues, this makes more sense to me than Ashara living with the grief of Brandon's death for over a year, and her daughter's death for a number of months, only to wait until after Ned comes to Starfall to kill herself.

Of course, there is the chance that Selmy is giving us some incorrect information, or that Selmy's information is correct and I am misinterpreting it. But this is what I lean toward for now.

I think this sums up everything that happened with her. She died because of grief and not of shame. She wasn't ashamed as far as we know about what happened in Harrenhall. The dishounered factor that Selmy explains is his interpretation for having sex with another man while she's single. She never married the man she had sex, so for him she was dishounered. That's it I guess.

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Highly unlikely. Considering that the text never mentions Ser Arthur Dayne sending Brandon Stark's balls to Starfall, for one.

On a tangent note, am I the only one grossed out by the popular "Did X rape Y? (scant evidence or no evidence follows)", and outright "X raped Y. (scant evidence or no evidence follows)" threads?

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Please stop theories about time travelling. This theory does not fit Bran's character. Also I suspect Bran likes Meera Reed.

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5 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

Please stop theories about time travelling. This theory does not fit Bran's character. Also I suspect Bran likes Meera Reed.

Is this supposed to be funny?

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There’s a big difference between being a ladies man and a rapist, and I don’t see anything pointing to Brandon being a rapist. Robert was a major ladies man, but was not connected to the rape of random women. If Brandon had raped Ashara, I don’t see how we’d have Ned Dayne walking around. Even if Ned did something that awesome to merit a namesake, naming your heir after the brother of your sister’s rapist just raises too many bad memories. Also, Ned killed Arthur Dayne, the brother of Ned Dayne’s father. Something isn’t adding up.

The rumors involving Brandon/Ned/Ashara may have begun for a reason, but probably arrived at the wrong conclusion. Say Aerys, a rapist, set his sights on Ashara. Ned and Brandon intervened, and thus were seen around Ashara a lot because they were actually serving as body guards. We then have a bit more context for Aerys’ actions against Rickard and Brandon. I’m just making this up for an example, but  something serious could have happened truly, people assumed the obvious thing (Occam’s Razor really sucks sometimes), and there you go. It’s also a story which the readers will definitely remember and thus keep this mysterious connection between the Starks and Daynes fresh in everyone’s minds.

So something big did happen and it’s important to the story, because GRRM reminds us often of how the two families are connected. So what really happened between the Starks and the Daynes?

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Actually, Barristan said "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

I wonder how much time it took GRRM to come up with a verb that wouldn't reveal what exactly happened.

The whole thing is very cleverly worded.

My first impression was that Ashara had been wronged by one man, that afterward she had turned to a Stark for some sort of help, and that Selmy is conflicted about whether she might have turned to him for that help instead had he defeated Rhaegar and named her QOLAB.

But the more I thought about it, the less sense that made to me, and the more convoluted it seemed. Ashara was the sister of the Sword of the Morning and KG Arthur Dayne, the sister of the Lord of Starfall, and the companion (or former companion?) of Princess Elia Martell.

Why would she possibly go to a Stark to get help against someone who wronged her? And why would Selmy think that winning the tourney and naming her QOLAB might have made it more likely she would have gone to him for help instead of the Stark?

In context, a context which demonstrates his conflicted feelings between his vows and his love and desire for Ashara, I think the part of him asking that question is envious of the man who dishonored her, IMO, the man she chose to be romantic with.

I am not suggesting that Selmy had some sick desire to dishonor her, but that as a KG who could not marry or father legitimate children, he knew that it would mean breaking his own vows and dishonoring her to be with her in any way romantically, yet part of him seems to think it might have been better that way.

At least that's what I am leaning toward right now.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

In context, a context which demonstrates his conflicted feelings between his vows and his love and desire for Ashara, I think the part of him asking that question is envious of the man who dishonored her, IMO, the man she chose.

I am not suggesting that Selmy had some sick desire to dishonor her, but as a KG who could not marry or father legitimate children, he knew that fulfilling his loves and desire for Ashara to the limited extents possible would mean breaking his own vows and dishonoring her.

At least that's what I am leaning toward right now.

IMO, that "looked to" is supposed to mean something like"fall for" here. As I read it, Barristan ponders if declaring his feelings for her via the crowning might have prevented her dishonour, i.e. he would be the one winning her affection instead of the guy who dishonoured her.

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

IMO, that "looked to" is supposed to mean something like"fall for" here. As I read it, Barristan ponders if declaring his feelings for her via the crowning might have prevented her dishonour, i.e. he would be the one winning her affection instead of the guy who dishonoured her.

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Sorry, I did a bit of editing, but I agree with you on that.

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Considering all the rumours about it, I'm quite sure Ashara died a virgin,  heh. I think it's more likely people made up stories about her because she was beautiful and many men probably courted her and were close to her. But that's it. I believe she left because she was preparing ToJ for Rhaegar and people assumed she was pregnant. That's not to say that she couldn't have had a lover, but I kinda doubt it. She was probably the most beautiful woman of Westeros during her time, and she could pick any man. Despite they're Dornish, the Daynes seem to follow many of the most conservative traditions of Westeros. If Arthur was celibate as I believe, I see no reason why Ashara wasn't until she was supposed to marry.

 

On 19/4/2017 at 7:34 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Also, literally everyone in the books says Ned had sex with Ashara, so that's clearly false. We can discard Barristan too, as well as Jon Connington, for obvious reasons. 

 

 

After Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, he got drunk.

Jokes aside, I kinda ship those two. Jon and Ashara, I mean. Imagine if we find out she was going to marry Jon. Crackpot Headcanon believes so.

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Sorry, I can't remember how to multiquote this thing, hah.

 

On 20/4/2017 at 11:15 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Highly unlikely. Considering that the text never mentions Ser Arthur Dayne sending Brandon Stark's balls to Starfall, for one.

 

hT <-- Hey, this bug still exist!

This is a scenario I would have liked to see in the books (putting aside the fact that Ashara got hurt, of course). Imagine how everything could have changed if Brandon had gone to challenge Rhaegar and he and Arthur were present. Rhaegar couldn't fight himself so it's Arthur the one stepping forward with a hint of glee in his eyes. "I'll handle it, my Prince".

<shivers>

On 20/4/2017 at 11:15 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

On a tangent note, am I the only one grossed out by the popular "Did X rape Y? (scant evidence or no evidence follows)", and outright "X raped Y. (scant evidence or no evidence follows)" threads?

 

Blame the you-know-what.

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3 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Blame the you-know-what.

Blame the time gap between the books.
If that fails, we can always BLAME CANADA!

 

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Posted (edited)

Way off... here's what happened.

Rhaegar seduced Ashara because he's looking for a mother for another kid. She gets pregnant with Dany - Rhaegar's hair and Ashara's eyes.

Rhaegar quickly changes his mind after hearing how Lyanna kicked 3 squires' asses and goes after her, naming Lyanna QoLaB and thus "dishonoring" Ashara.

Ashara then warns Ned about Rhaegar's womanizing since she suspects he'll go for Lyanna next. Ned discusses with Brandon but they can't do anything about the crown prince realistically.

Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna and Brandon goes apeshit, knowing Rhaegar will do the same to Lyanna as he has to Ashara - seduce, impregnate, and ditch so Brandon gets a little rash and calls him out to die. 

yada yada yada.

Lyanna is sad that Rhaegar dies - she still liked him after all - and Ned took her daughter and gave her away as part of his promise to "protect Rhaegar's children" to Lyanna. Ashara throws herself off a tower.

Barristan thinks if he had won the tourney and named Ashara after Rhaegar dumped her she would have realized he was the guy to go to rather than Ned.

Edited by Kienn

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On 4/19/2017 at 1:53 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Did Brandon Stark rape Ashara Dayne? I don't know of any hints towards this but I heard Tony Teflon of Teflon TV say he believes he did so in this link (54:35). Any thoughts/theories please?

 

Not a chance. Brandon was a lot of things, but not a rapist 

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On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

<snip>

Ned and Ashara hit it off at Harrenhal and hooked up during the tourney, when both were single. Ned and Ashara somehow found an opportunity to hook up during the war, and conceived a daughter, perhaps even after he had already agreed to marry or already married Cat. <snip>

I still don't think that's possible.

Ned, a man who was honourable to a fault, was tormented by a promise he made to his sister... but not for the dishonour that he is supposed to have done to his wife?

If he slept with Ashara Dayne, then imho it was before he was betrothed to Cat. Otherwise that would have been the thing that tormented him. On that, it seems, his conscience was clear.

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Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, COYStars said:

I still don't think that's possible.

Ned, a man who was honourable to a fault, was tormented by a promise he made to his sister... but not for the dishonour that he is supposed to have done to his wife?

If he slept with Ashara Dayne, then imho it was before he was betrothed to Cat. Otherwise that would have been the thing that tormented him. On that, it seems, his conscience was clear.

It is entirely possible that Ned never had sex with another woman after he agreed to marry Cat. It is entirely possible he never had sex with anyone other than Cat, before or after he agreed to marry her. But I am still open to the possibility that Ned is drawing on sincere guilt he has over having had sex with and perhaps even impregnated another woman after he agreed to marry Cat, even if it was not Jon's mother. I wouldn't say I lean toward that being the case, but I consider it plausible enough to mention as a possibility.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, COYStars said:

If he slept with Ashara Dayne, then imho it was before he was betrothed to Cat. Otherwise that would have been the thing that tormented him. On that, it seems, his conscience was clear.

Maybe it was? Maybe the fact that he broke his vow to Ashara was one of the things that were tormenting him, one of his broken promises.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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