Free folk Daemon

Did Brandon Stark rape Ashara Dayne?

107 posts in this topic

On 20.04.2017 г. at 4:15 PM, Protagoras said:

Now, I am going to go write about my theory that Mace Tyrell kidnapped a fleeing Arthur Dayne, took him to Highgarden, tied him up in his sex dungeon and had him anally. I have some great evidence. Namely that I say the books should be interpreted that way. Its evidence, right?

Golden just golden and now we know why they call him The Fat Flower

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17 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

After Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, he got drunk.

Jokes aside, I kinda ship those two. Jon and Ashara, I mean. Imagine if we find out she was going to marry Jon. Crackpot Headcanon believes so.

Talk about JonCon's beard

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3 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Golden just golden and now we know why they call him The Fat Flower

As they say - what happens in Highgarden STAYS in Highgarden, :P

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11 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is entirely possible that Ned never had sex with another woman after he agreed to marry Cat. It is entirely possible he never had sex with anyone other than Cat, before or after he agreed to marry her. But I am still open to the possibility that Ned is drawing on sincere guilt he has over having had sex with and perhaps even impregnated another woman after he agreed to marry Cat, even if it was not Jon's mother. I wouldn't say I lean toward that being the case, but I consider it plausible enough to mention as a possibility.

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

I think that having sex with someone he was not engaged to is basically ruled out by this.

 

10 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Maybe it was? Maybe the fact that he broke his vow to Ashara was one of the things that were tormenting him, one of his broken promises.

If only the instances when he makes promises, like with Barra's mother or Robert on his deathbed, brought about other memories than of Lyanna.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If only the instances when he makes promises, like with Barra's mother or Robert on his deathbed, brought about other memories than of Lyanna.

Well Lyanna's actions were the reason of him breaking his promise to Ashara and left her to marry Cat.

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On ‎25‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:05 AM, The Doctor's Consort said:

Well Lyanna's actions were the reason of him breaking his promise to Ashara and left her to marry Cat.

They were? I missed that.

In any event, that's off topic. It's the promise he made to Lyanna - not any actions by Lyanna or any promise made to anyone else - that torments him.

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I too am sick of the constant x raped y no evidence in the text proposals. Thus far in my 4 years on this forum, I have seen proposals that no fewer than. 

  1. Aerys
  2. Rhaegar
  3. Brandon
  4. Ned
  5. Robert
  6. Arthur

Have raped Ashara, and to be quite honest I could be missing a few. I mean COME ON! why are you all so obsessed with rape? There is no evidence that Ashara was raped by anyone and the quotes from Barristan imply she chose consensual sex with someone namely "Stark" And given the relationship between Ned & Barristan has no inclination of jealousy or resentment and Ned is notably not a womaniser. Whilst Brandon was; it is highly likely that that Stark was Brandon. 

Nor does the timeline allow for Dany or Jon to be Ashara's child. 

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16 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I too am sick of the constant x raped y no evidence in the text proposals. Thus far in my 4 years on this forum, I have seen proposals that no fewer than. 

  1. Aerys
  2. Rhaegar
  3. Brandon
  4. Ned
  5. Robert
  6. Arthur

Have raped Ashara, and to be quite honest I could be missing a few. I mean COME ON! why are you all so obsessed with rape? There is no evidence that Ashara was raped by anyone and the quotes from Barristan imply she chose consensual sex with someone namely "Stark" And given the relationship between Ned & Barristan has no inclination of jealousy or resentment and Ned is notably not a womaniser. Whilst Brandon was; it is highly likely that that Stark was Brandon. 

Nor does the timeline allow for Dany or Jon to be Ashara's child. 

Well said.

The quote is that "Stark dishonored her", which clearly is not the same as rape, and it is an appreciation by Barristan not by Ashara. Furthermore, Edric Dayne doesn't think there was anything wrong with the alleged Ned-Ashara relation, except that he "broke" her hearth, but we don't know how much of truth is in there.

There is a very unhealthy obsession with Ashara tbh. GRRM is partly to blame by using her as a plot device regarding Jon's parentage without giving her any backstory or agency (the infamous dead ladies club).

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6 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well said.

The quote is that "Stark dishonored her", which clearly is not the same as rape, and it is an appreciation by Barristan not by Ashara. Furthermore, Edric Dayne doesn't think there was anything wrong with the alleged Ned-Ashara relation, except that he "broke" her hearth, but we don't know how much of truth is in there.

There is a very unhealthy obsession with Ashara tbh. GRRM is partly to blame by using her as a plot device regarding Jon's parentage without giving her any backstory or agency (the infamous dead ladies club).

It doesn't even say that. It says that someone dishonoured her at Harrenhall - but we are not told whom.

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13 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well said.

The quote is that "Stark dishonored her", which clearly is not the same as rape, and it is an appreciation by Barristan not by Ashara. Furthermore, Edric Dayne doesn't think there was anything wrong with the alleged Ned-Ashara relation, except that he "broke" her hearth, but we don't know how much of truth is in there.

There is a very unhealthy obsession with Ashara tbh. GRRM is partly to blame by using her as a plot device regarding Jon's parentage without giving her any backstory or agency (the infamous dead ladies club).

 
 

I agree there is an obsession with Ashara, she is one of those characters whom people assign all manner of roles despite there being no evidence. 

Edric Dayne only knows what his aunt; who is likely not that much older than him. And staff at Starfall have told him. Information which is as subject to exaggeration, romanticisation etc as it is in any other castle.

Alyria is likely not much older than him because otherwise, her excessively long betrothal to Beric makes no sense. Her information regarding Ashara - Ned- Wylla is therefore likely second hand and easily misunderstood given she was probably a child when she heard about it. This is easy to see as frankly, the whole story makes no sense.

 Why would Ned after falling in love with Ashara and having that love reciprocated go on to impregnate the staff? He's not Robert. When on earth would Ned have the opportunity in the fortnight surrounding his wedding to Cat (as this is the only time Jon can feasibly have been conceived) to travel to Starfall and get jiggy with Wylla? And why would Alyria and Ashara's older brother name his heir after the man who broke his sister's heart and killed his brother?   

 

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I too am sick of the constant x raped y no evidence in the text proposals. Thus far in my 4 years on this forum, I have seen proposals that no fewer than. 

  1. Aerys
  2. Rhaegar
  3. Brandon
  4. Ned
  5. Robert
  6. Arthur

Have raped Ashara, and to be quite honest I could be missing a few. I mean COME ON! why are you all so obsessed with rape? There is no evidence that Ashara was raped by anyone and the quotes from Barristan imply she chose consensual sex with someone namely "Stark" And given the relationship between Ned & Barristan has no inclination of jealousy or resentment and Ned is notably not a womaniser. Whilst Brandon was; it is highly likely that that Stark was Brandon. 

Nor does the timeline allow for Dany or Jon to be Ashara's child. 

 

It's not only that. It's like people assume Ashara HAD to have sex with someone because she's "Dornish"* or because "muh empowerment". Is the idea of a noble lady not wanting to have sex somehow repressive or something? Cat married a virgin, as many other women do. Is this a bad thing? Not in my book. Being able to say "I don't want to" is also being in control of your own sexuality. But no, Ashara was beautiful and all men wanted her so she wanted to have sex despite House Dayne seems to be very respectful of honor and tradition. IICR, I counted 12 men she's been accused of having sex with. 

This irks me because it reminds me an article by a woman saying that, if women were once required to be sexually discreet, now we're required to be sexually open in order to appear "liberated". Both expectations are wrong, imo. It's easy to see Ashara's life as being regulated by the social norms of her time, but why is so hard to assume that she agreed on celibacy before marriage on her own? I mean, yes: it's likely that she indeed had a lover that she liked and got pregnant, but the other option is equally possible.

*Same applies for Elia.

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I too am sick of the constant x raped y no evidence in the text proposals. Thus far in my 4 years on this forum, I have seen proposals that no fewer than. 

  1. Aerys
  2. Rhaegar
  3. Brandon
  4. Ned
  5. Robert
  6. Arthur

Have raped Ashara, and to be quite honest I could be missing a few. I mean COME ON! why are you all so obsessed with rape? There is no evidence that Ashara was raped by anyone and the quotes from Barristan imply she chose consensual sex with someone namely "Stark" And given the relationship between Ned & Barristan has no inclination of jealousy or resentment and Ned is notably not a womaniser. Whilst Brandon was; it is highly likely that that Stark was Brandon. 

Nor does the timeline allow for Dany or Jon to be Ashara's child. 

Yes, yes, yes. I agree. I wonder how much of that shit-show abomination has to do with this oddly embraced line of thought, because nothing in the text supports these ideas.

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In this case, I think some people simply interpret the wording of Selmy's thoughts to mean that something was done to Ashara against her will. I might go so far as to say that GRRM worded it with the intention that people jump to conclusions along those lines. But I do think it is a misinterpretation of whatever actually happened, and that Selmy is going to think of the man as having dishonored her even if it was consensual.

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2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

It's not only that. It's like people assume Ashara HAD to have sex with someone because she's "Dornish"* or because "muh empowerment".

Are you talking about readers or characters? It is not without basis from the books that some readers believe Ashara had sex. At least two characters suggest that Ashara was pregnant at some point, which would require her to have had sex. Perhaps those characters are entirely or partially wrong. But we've at least been given some reason to think she might have had sex, and not just because she is Dornish or beautiful.

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i have thought that it was quite clear that brandon the womanizer had something like one night stand or multiple night stand with ashara without intention to marry her. Otherwise what is the point that GRRM painted Brandob as "blood stained sword" with words of Lady Dustin? 

Actually acrroding to the story, Brandon is not only rush and wild and never shy to get whatever he wants and behave like a womanizer, but also quite a hypocrite since he can "dishonor" lady dustin and ashara while engaged without any issue but try to kill Rhaegar when Rhaegar did the same thing to his sister Lyanna. 

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Are you talking about readers or characters? It is not without basis from the books that some readers believe Ashara had sex. At least two characters suggest that Ashara was pregnant at some point, which would require her to have had sex. Perhaps those characters are entirely or partially wrong. But we've at least been given some reason to think she might have had sex, and not just because she is Dornish or beautiful.

 

I mean readers. Characters do too, but I give them a pass because they don't have all the panorama as we (somehow) do. Some people believe that Ashara is Jon's mother and we know for sure that she isn't. We don't really know what Barristan actually believes or what he's heard that made him believe Ashara was pregnant, but he's not the most accurate person either.  So, if any character is convinced that she was pregnant with Ned's bastard and that's how the rumour started, we, as readers, know such rumour isn't true.

 

 

 

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Aye, Because she's dornish? I especially dislike that one.  It's such a massive assumption and I agree with JCRB about the absence of choice to say no being as oppressive as the absence of choice to say yes.

 Prince Oberyn is Dornish, and male and a Prince and yes he has lots of publicly frowned upon sex. Arrianne is a Princess & the Heir and is having her sex in a discreet manner because she is female.  Dorne is slightly more liberal than the rest of the 7 kingdoms but it is not some utopia of sexual liberation. 

Ashara was stony Dornish, the most like the other regions in Westeros. Whilst she may have had a slightly less strict upbringing in regards to sexuality it won't have been vastly different and she'd be expected to refrain from pre-marital sex. Or at least be extremely selective, discreet, and cautious.  

If she had a lover; and I think Barristans words imply a lover, not a rape, as his thinking that if he had won and crowned her QoL&B to me implies he thinks he could have been her lover. It was just one, and she wasn't flaunting it in public. Obviously, rumours of her pregnancy did leak out because we have Cersei accusing Eddard of fathering her child. And Barristan thinks she birthed a stillborn daughter. And Cat thinks Ashara could have been Jon's mother based upon the gossip of servants. 

I think what we can guess at, from what we do know is this. 

Ashara likely did get pregnant at Harrenhall, and the man who she had been intimate with was likely Brandon Stark. We can base these two assumptions upon. a: the fact three separate sources including two who were living at the Red Keep think she had a baby. And b: the fact Brandon was described to us as a man who enjoyed deflowering maidens and was not shy about going after women he wanted. 

We know Brandon spoke with Ashara and persuaded her to dance with Ned, so this hints that she was open to his powers of persuasion. And if we examine Barristan's words it seems indeed it was a Stark whom she "turned to" an ambiguous phrase yes. But it is important when interpreting literature that we take into account the information given in the actual novels. In these novels, the name drop of Stark in relation to Ashara comes alongside the info drop by Barbrey Dustin that Brandon was a bit of a shagger. 

Barristan has strong reason to have been keenly observing Ashara's behaviour at the Tourney; he was in love with her. So we can assume that if anyone knew who she had been spending time with it was him. Barristan also thinks that the reason this man got to be intimate with the lady Ashara could have been altered had he won the tourney and made a grand romantic gesture towards her. Implying choice on her part.

Barristan in his position as KG in the Red Keep is also more likely to have heard the gossip at court regarding Ashara after the tourney than other people in the realm. And again as a person who was emotionally invested in her, he would have been actively seeking out information about her at this time. And as she was one of Elia's ladies in waiting, the royal court is the place where gossip would be heard. So he hears she is with child, she is sent back to Starfall, he hears later that she birthed a daughter but that her baby was stillborn. This makes sense as other ladies at court, friends of Ashara, would be in contact with her at Starfall and her family and so may have received news from them about the birth.   

Cersei was also at court and as such would have also heard rumours. But as she was only very young, would not have been included in all the ladies gossiping, or concerned discussion of their friend, depending on who was chattering about Ashara. Nor would she be actively seeking out news like Barristan. But the fact she heard of a pregnancy tells us the rumours happened. Now, for the reasons above we can answer why she thought it Ned who fathered the child. She was not actively paying attention to the gossip. She may just have heard Stark mentioned occasionally and put two and two together and got five. Because she obviously also knows Ned Stark has some bastard boy. 

Catelyn hears about it at WF, which shows us that despite the fact that Ashara got pregnant 2 years earlier. The gossip did not reach Riverrun. either it was simply court gossip which never leaked out or the gossip was deliberatly kept from her? maybe because the man who impregnanted Ashara Dayne was not Eddard Stark but Brandon? Whom at the time of the scandal she was betrothed to.  Now ask yourself why this gossip was howether going round WF? We know Ned returned to the north with no retinue of his own his personal team were obliterated by the KG and Howland it seems went straight back to Greywater watch. Ned is not the type to even in his cups start gossipping about his conquests, he isn't even the type to have had any.  And besides which the time line is impossible for him to have had Jon with Ashara. There is no Sat nav and mobile phones in Westeros with which to arrange a liasion.  So who told the staff at WF that Ashara had born a child to a Stark? I doubt Starfall were sending out ravens to announce their daughters unwedded pregnancy to the realm. Might Brandon himself have been boasting in the period between Harrenhall and the abduction.  It wouldn't take much for asnippet of gossip over heard to be misinterpreted by a young nieve Cat.  And this would also explain Neds vhemenance at shutting it down. He would not want Cat to learn of Brandons faithlesness. Bad enough she has to be led to believe he himself has shamed her with his infidelity. But two Stark men! that would hurt her too much and shame the House besides. 

Lastly I think it is possible Alyria is in fact Ashara and Brandons daughter. It wouldn't be the first time a Lord & Lady passed a grandchild off as their own. The deception free's Ashara of having a bastard hanging arround and so improves her marriage prospects slightly and any improvement would be welcome now that she is dishonoured by a pre-marital pregnancy. And it gives the child all the advantags of High Birth taken from her by bastardy. And explains why she seems inexplicably far younger than her siblings. 

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, yes, yes. I agree. I wonder how much of that shit-show abomination has to do with this oddly embraced line of thought, because nothing in the text supports these ideas.

 

I agree that horror show is quite likely a cause of the rape obsession. 

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I don't know, but I don't buy the rape part. But, it seems to me the Ashara plotline will be revealed before the end, and be of somewhat large importance.

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Posted (edited)

Also, why would Ashara grieve for the man who raped her? Barristan believed that "grief for the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal" might have been part of the reason for her suicide.

I don't think people are suggesting that Dornish = strumpet, but it's more than implied that the Dornish are less uptight about pre-marital sex. While Ashara's family might not condone it, they may also have been less likely to shame her for it.

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We know Ned returned to the north with no retinue of his own his personal team were obliterated by the KG and Howland it seems went straight back to Greywater watch.

Do we know it? He must have returned to the Red Keep so that he and Robert could be reconciled over their grief for Lyanna, unless that all happened via raven. Would he still have men at Storms End or in KL? He might have suddenly reappeared minus five men and with a baby and nursemaid in tow. Unless there's something in the books to explain it, but I don't remember specifically.

As for Ashara dancing with Ned - yeah, she accepted, when BRANDON asked her. If the hottest guy in half a continent singled me out, I'd probably dance with all of his boring brothers.

Edited by maudisdottir

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Also, why would Ashara grieve for the man who raped her? Barristan believed that "grief for the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal" might have been part of the reason for her suicide.

I don't think people are suggesting that Dornish = strumpet, but it's more than implied that the Dornish are less uptight about pre-marital sex. While Ashara's family might not condone it, they may also have been less likely to shame her for it.

Do we know it? He must have returned to the Red Keep so that he and Robert could be reconciled over their grief for Lyanna, unless that all happened via raven. Would he still have men at Storms End or in KL? He might have suddenly reappeared minus five men and with a baby and nursemaid in tow. Unless there's something in the books to explain it, but I don't remember specifically.

As for Ashara dancing with Ned - yeah, she accepted, when BRANDON asked her. If the hottest guy in half a continent singled me out, I'd probably dance with all of his boring brothers.

 
 

Exactly, I highly doubt that had Brandon or anyone else forced themselves on her she'd be grieving him.

Trust me, hang around the board long enough and you will see people assuming that any Dornish woman will basically have sex with anyone cos like er Dornish!! It gets said a lot. It gets pretty old. 

I personally think they reacted with pragmatism and decided to pass Ashara's baby off as their own. ie: Allyria Dayne. 

I'm not sure right now if we do know how Robert & Ned reconciled? But I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. I meant, that as no one who was part of Ned's ToJ team returned home inc Howland Reed who as far as we know just went back to Greywater Watch and has not been seen since. We can ascertain they could not have spread the rumour of Ned & Ashara at WF. He doubtless had multiple men who survived the rebellion who came back North. They just weren't going to be making shit up about Ashara they had no reason to.  So if there were rumours of a Stark and Ashara at WF it may have come not from Ned's trip to Starfall but rather from Brandon himself prior to the rebellion.  And that Cat misinterpreted the whispers of gossip and assumed it had been Ned who was sleeping with Ashara Dayne. 

I think we can ascertain that Brandon was far sexier than his brother, Cat practically drools when she recalls him.  And yeah, poor Ned seems to have got a dance only as a favour to his big brother. 

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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