Free folk Daemon

Did Brandon Stark rape Ashara Dayne?

107 posts in this topic

Also I think it worth adding that had Ned managed to bed Ashara at harrenhall that there is one person who would have known, and never mentions it. Robert. Who was Ned's BFF and would have doubtless would have remembered if little shy Ned had made it with the fittest maid in the realm? Ned isn't the type to brag, but losing your V card is a pretty big deal and even shy Ned would probably have mentioned it to his best buddy. 

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3 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

I don't know, but I don't buy the rape part. But, it seems to me the Ashara plotline will be revealed before the end, and be of somewhat large importance.

 
 
 

It will be, and I'm sure it will have nothing to do with any lover or baby. I'm sure she was the one who arranged ToJ for Rhaegar and his men, and she was the go-between of him and Starfall. I mean, it's likely that many different people were involved in this, and that included the Daynes, even their older brother (Edric's father).

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Also, why would Ashara grieve for the man who raped her? Barristan believed that "grief for the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal" might have been part of the reason for her suicide.

1
 
 

He believes so, but I doubt it. I think she died because she felt guilty of being part of a plot that caused her brother and friends to die (see above). Also, look at what happened to the Houses who were loyal to Rhaegar (Connington, Darry). She probably thought her own family would pay the price as well.

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

As for Ashara dancing with Ned - yeah, she accepted, when BRANDON asked her. If the hottest guy in half a continent singled me out, I'd probably dance with all of his boring brothers.

 

I like to think Ashara did it because she was sympathetic to little Ned. I want to believe she told Brandon to go and F himself. Someone at some point had to do it and I hope it was her.

 

 

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7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure right now if we do know how Robert & Ned reconciled? But I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. I meant, that as no one who was part of Ned's ToJ team returned home inc Howland Reed who as far as we know just went back to Greywater Watch and has not been seen since.

Sure, the posse that set out for the ToJ came back minus five, but we don't know if any of his Winterfell men returned with him, do we? I mean, does it explicitly say that the rest of his army and household guards went home straight away, and Ned returned alone later? I can't believe he lifted the siege of Storm's End with seven men. Say there were still a handful that made the journey back up the Kingsroad with their Lord, his "bastard" son, Howland Reed and (I assume) a nursemaid, and Ned is stony silent about anything that happened other than that Arthur Dayne was dead and he took the sword back to Arthur's family home. That would be enough to get tongues wagging on the long ride home. Especially once news of Ashara's death spread.

7 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

He believes so, but I doubt it. I think she died because she felt guilty of being part of a plot that caused her brother and friends to die (see above). Also, look at what happened to the Houses who were loyal to Rhaegar (Connington, Darry). She probably thought her own family would pay the price as well.

I agree that Ashara had a few reasons for offing herself (allegedly). My point is that Barristan believes grief over her lost love might have been a factor. If he truly thought Ashara had been raped he would have felt more anger and want to get revenge (even if only in his memories) instead of lamenting over not winning a tourney to gain her love. How would that have stopped her being raped? And he would never think that she might grieve for someone who did that to her. I think people are misinterpreting celibate old Barry's use of "dishonoured".

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

does it explicitly say that the rest of his army and household guards went home straight away, and Ned returned alone later

Nope. Absolutely nothing is said about the details of his return journey. We know that the shared grief over Lyanna's death reconciled him with Robert, but not when or where or how the reconciliation took place. We know that his men talked about his single combat with Arthur Dayne and returning Dawn to Starfall where Ashara was waiting for him, but not the source of their knowledge or if they personally went to Starfall.

And we don't know when any of Ned's men saw Jon for the first time, only that he and his wetnurse had arrived in Winterfell before Cat. IMHO, this suggests zero knowledge on part of the Winterfellians, because had Ned brought Jon with him right after ToJ, the news would eventually reach some of the PoV's character's ears.

 

Edited by Ygrain
after thought

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Nope. Absolutely nothing is said about the details of his return journey. We know that the shared grief over Lyanna's death reconciled him with Robert, but not when or where or how the reconciliation took place. We know that his men talked about his single combat with Arthur Dayne and returning Dawn to Starfall where Ashara was waiting for him, but not the source of their knowledge or if they personally went to Starfall.

And we don't know when any of Ned's men saw Jon for the first time, only that he and his wetnurse had arrived in Winterfell before Cat. IMHO, this suggests zero knowledge on part of the Winterfellians, because had Ned brought Jon with him right after ToJ, the news would eventually reach some of the PoV's character's ears.

 

We do know from Martin that Ned's troops did not accompany him into Dorne.

Quote

SEPTEMBER 11, 1999

THE BARATHEON BROTHERS

First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. (SSM 1046)

 We can also tell from the rumors that Ned's troops bring back to Winterfell that they think Jon turns up sometime after Ned leaves them to go to the Tower of Joy and then on to Starfall. It is likely that Jon first appears when Ned see his troops after Starfall, most likely at Storm's End. The idea that Ned then travels north without seeing Robert and telling him that Lyanna is dead is extremely unlikely. Although that doesn't equal proof, the evidence points to this.

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5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Sure, the posse that set out for the ToJ came back minus five, but we don't know if any of his Winterfell men returned with him, do we? I mean, does it explicitly say that the rest of his army and household guards went home straight away, and Ned returned alone later? I can't believe he lifted the siege of Storm's End with seven men. Say there were still a handful that made the journey back up the Kingsroad with their Lord, his "bastard" son, Howland Reed and (I assume) a nursemaid, and Ned is stony silent about anything that happened other than that Arthur Dayne was dead and he took the sword back to Arthur's family home. That would be enough to get tongues wagging on the long ride home. Especially once news of Ashara's death spread.

 

All I was saying is that the rumours at WF may not have come from Ned's men but from Brandon before the rebellion. It was only a throw away supposistion I don't think you need to disect it that much. 

We don't know anything about his return journey as Ygrain noted. 

But my point was, that the rumours appearing at WF don't have to be what Cat assumed and no one was with Ned in dorne who would then be at WF so whatever the rumours were they were not a first hand account of how Ned went to Starfall after the ToJ and came back with a baby.  

Ned could have; to his soilders knowledge. Picked up Jon at any point between leaving them at KL and whenever they next saw him. Be that back in KL after Dorne or back at WF if he travelled seperatly. And lets face it there is a good chance he'd do that as he is travelling with a newborn and a shorter more comfortable journey north by ship would be preferable to months travelling the Kings Road north with the remenants of a bedraggled exhausted army.  Or maybe he sent Jon  and his wetnurse on by ship and rode home with his army?  

I don't think this question, of what the rumours at WF precisely were and where they stemmed from will ever be answered. It just isn't an important enough plot point. I was just proposing that the rumours could easily be about Brandon not Ned and that Cat misunderstood what she heard. Lets face it no one would be directly including the new Lady Stark in this gossip. So she has only heard a few snippets accidently at most.  And that it is more in Brandons character than Neds to talk about who he's bedded, or indeed to be going around bedding anyone pre marriage. 

Likewise I think the gossip at Starfall could have become altered over time and how many people have told the story. As I said Allyria is not very likely an adult who was present at the time. The rumours of Lady Ashara having been in love with a Stark could have become twisted up with the cover story Ned's parents and or grandparents may have agreed upon regarding Jon in naming Wylla his mother. 

Because it makes no sense at all the way Ned tells it to Arya.  Nor does it make much sense for Ned to shut down rumours about Ashara being Jon's mother at WF because that provides good coverage for his ruse. But if the gossip was not that but rather that Brandon had been unfaithul to Cat then that makes perfect sense. 

Please understand me, I'm not trying to propose a solid theory here I'm just bashing out ideas. Thinking through likelyhoods and wondering about shit. 

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On 2/5/2017 at 3:14 PM, COYStars said:

It's the promise he made to Lyanna

How do you know that?In the text he never said that it was Lyanna.

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Posted (edited)

On Invalid Date at 0:33 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Also I think it worth adding that had Ned managed to bed Ashara at harrenhall that there is one person who would have known, and never mentions it. Robert. Who was Ned's BFF and would have doubtless would have remembered if little shy Ned had made it with the fittest maid in the realm? Ned isn't the type to brag, but losing your V card is a pretty big deal and even shy Ned would probably have mentioned it to his best buddy. 

Robert can barely remember the women he bedded ,while at Harrenhal he was involved in a drinking game with Richard Lonmouth , being bombed out of your skull with wine can do terrible things to one's memory .

Edited by BRANDON GREYSTARK

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No Brandon did not rape  Ashara , Barrie just had a bad case of sour grapes , he would have been glad to trade places with Stark . Brandon did for Eddard what his liege lord was suppose to do ,find a suitable wife for is brother .(The same thing Hoss Tully did for The Blackfish )

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I think the rape idea is ridiculous.    Brandon was a feisty guy who apparently liked it rough, but absolutely nothing in the text indicates that he held place with the Gregor Cleganes and Ramsay Boltons of the world. 

To be fair, though, I also think that the Stark that Ashara "looked to" after the tourney wasn't male, so...there's that.

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9 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Robert can barely remember the women he bedded ,while at Harrenhal he was involved in a drinking game with Richard Lonmouth , being bombed out of your skull with wine can do terrible things to one's memory .

 

This is basically weak as shit. Robert may not remember the women he bedded, but that is because Roberts beds everyone that has a skirt on. And I doubt he even asked many of them their names. But Ned isn't like that and if he had lost his virginity to one of the most beautiful maids in the realm who comes from a majorly important family then he likely would have confided that in his best mate, who is likely to remember it. I mean I know I can name the boys that my best few friends lost their virginity to and that was well over 20 odd years ago now. And trust me at the time I was smashed out of my brains on a mixture of booze, speed, LSD, magic mushrooms, grass & E. for like basically the entire 90's. With a fair bit of coke and a smattering of wobbly eggs, and various downers thrown in for good measure. 

Robert took part in one drinking game on one of the days of the tourney, which took place over several days and after which both Ned & Robert returned to the Eyrie together, where frankly had little Ned managed to bed Ashara Dayne I think even shy little Ned would have mentioned that to his best buddy. 

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He did rape her Brandon wanted her she didint open her legs one leads to another ... and you know. Maybe even thats why she killed herself

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Posted (edited)

On 19/04/2017 at 7:40 PM, Ian Dunross said:

I don't think even Brandon could have gotten away with raping Ashara.  It doesn't mean he didn't get her drunk and seduced her. 

Mate, that is rape and would be enough to cause a scandal anyway.

On 20/04/2017 at 0:15 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

On a tangent note, am I the only one grossed out by the popular "Did X rape Y? (scant evidence or no evidence follows)", and outright "X raped Y. (scant evidence or no evidence follows)" threads?

You're not alone dude. I'm really fucking tired of this shit and I pretty much never actually go in the threads titled like that until now because I needed to ask what the point is.

On 02/05/2017 at 9:14 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I too am sick of the constant x raped y no evidence in the text proposals. Thus far in my 4 years on this forum, I have seen proposals that no fewer than. 

  1. Aerys
  2. Rhaegar
  3. Brandon
  4. Ned
  5. Robert
  6. Arthur

Have raped Ashara, and to be quite honest I could be missing a few. I mean COME ON! why are you all so obsessed with rape? There is no evidence that Ashara was raped by anyone and the quotes from Barristan imply she chose consensual sex with someone namely "Stark" And given the relationship between Ned & Barristan has no inclination of jealousy or resentment and Ned is notably not a womaniser. Whilst Brandon was; it is highly likely that that Stark was Brandon. 

Nor does the timeline allow for Dany or Jon to be Ashara's child. 

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000

On 02/05/2017 at 9:39 AM, rotting sea cow said:

Well said.

The quote is that "Stark dishonored her", which clearly is not the same as rape, and it is an appreciation by Barristan not by Ashara. Furthermore, Edric Dayne doesn't think there was anything wrong with the alleged Ned-Ashara relation, except that he "broke" her hearth, but we don't know how much of truth is in there.

There is a very unhealthy obsession with Ashara tbh. GRRM is partly to blame by using her as a plot device regarding Jon's parentage without giving her any backstory or agency (the infamous dead ladies club).

I totally agree. Seriously, "dishonoured" doesn't automatically denotes rape, let's remember that Robb married Jeyne so as not to dishonour her. We have seen this used for consensual pre-marital sex before, it is not at all exclusively a euphemism for rape in the books. And people have totally called rape by it's name before. Robert and Abram say clearly that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, no refrains from calling what Elia or Lollys suffered was rape. Even if Barristan doesn't want to say the word, wouldn't he sooner say "forced himself on her" or "violated her"?

 

Honestly what would make me happy is that we just never hear from her again in the books and some bitter people will call it a plot hole instead of the result of their tendency to mountains out of molehills. I don't understand what's counterintuitive about her serving her narrative function as a red herring for Jon's parentage. I'll agree that bringing her back in Barristan's thoughts might make her more than that but if that was just fleshing out Barry and his regrets as a knight, well I won't be disappointed in the least.

I'm generally tired of the whole "did -insert female character here- have sex with x / was she raped by y". No, I don't ultimately care Ashara, Margeary or poor Naerys' sexual activity. 

Edited by NorthGirl

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On 4/20/2017 at 2:15 PM, Protagoras said:

How? Why? How did the video even...?

Is there anything substantial who back this theory up? Anything at all? Or is it just random mumbling? Like somehow, Brandon talk to Ashara for Ned, think that he want her himself to fuck with Ned and then somehow this turns out to be a rape?  And I don´t think that person in the video necessary has pegged Neds and Brandons relationship here. He just assumes relations brother to brother just must be in a certain way. 

Now, I am going to go write about my theory that Mace Tyrell kidnapped a fleeing Arthur Dayne, took him to Highgarden, tied him up in his sex dungeon and had him anally. I have some great evidence. Namely that I say the books should be interpreted that way. Its evidence, right?

That is the most violent case of opinion allergy I've seen.

Either case, there are clues that Brandon might be a rapist. It's not uncommon in that world and Brandon is described as hot-headed/macho dude and 'not being shy to take what he wanted' + Barry's suspicions. This is obviously not something to build a case on but it does warrant suspicion.

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I don't anyone raped Ashara, I just never read the text like that. 'Dishonoured' doens't mean rape to me, I think Barristan would have used some much stronger language if the love of his life had actually been raped. Someone could have refused to dance with/drunkenly given her a kiss on the chin/made an inappropriate joke and Barristan would have seen it as dishonouring Ashara. 

In my head Ashara and Rheagar are the parents of Dany - I know, not a very popular theory - but I don't belive she was raped. The 'Stark' Ashara turned to could have been Lyanna, and the thing that Barristan wished had been avoided -by Rhaegar not singling out Lyanna - was that Ashara didn't talk Lyanna into being part of Rheagar's I must make some more magical babies obsession. 

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On 5/14/2017 at 0:41 PM, NorthGirl said:

Honestly what would make me happy is that we just never hear from her again in the books and some bitter people will call it a plot hole instead of the result of their tendency to mountains out of molehills. I don't understand what's counterintuitive about her serving her narrative function as a red herring for Jon's parentage. I'll agree that bringing her back in Barristan's thoughts might make her more than that but if that was just fleshing out Barry and his regrets as a knight, well I won't be disappointed in the least.

I'm actually hoping the opposite. Ashara has been so much abused by the fandom that hopefully GRRM tries to close that hole and remedy his own blind spots and provides us with some insight of what actually happened and why everybody thinks that Jon is Ashara and Ned son. And while we are at it, hopefully enough context about her personality and agency is provided.

 

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On 4/19/2017 at 11:12 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Yup but people still like to think of Aerys as a rapist. World Book makes a big deal out of him stopping being a womanizer before that. Still Maesters have been wrong before.

Didn't Jamie say that burning people put Aerys in the mood? He got pretty nasty with his wife, leaving marks on her and all that. The thought of him raping Ashara had never crossed my mind, and it doesn't strike me as likely, but, just saying..

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Not rape, more like taking advantage of her. brandon would never do such a thing, yes he is the player type but he ain't a rapist

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On 15/5/2017 at 4:57 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Either case, there are clues that Brandon might be a rapist.

Actually no there are not clues of him being a rapist.

On 15/5/2017 at 4:57 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Barry's suspicions

Barry said nothing to imply that Brandon raped Ashara. He said that Ashara have looked to a Stark. Which seems to imply that a Stark had defended her and not raped her.

 

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It may or may not be worth noting that the word "rape" has a different meaning today than it did in antiquity; consent was irrelevant to the definition, if a man had sex with a woman he wasn't married to (particularly if he took her virginity in doing so) it was rape (conversely, sex with one's wife was never rape, and this odd idea hangs around even in modern law). This is why the "punishment" for rape outlined in the old testament is that the rapist had to marry the woman he raped (and pay her father). Basically rape was a property crime: you break it, you buy it.

GRRM doesn't seem to use it this way, however, which is why I say it may not be worth noting.

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