shardofNarsil

Tyrion's killing of Tywin was an over reaction?

64 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

No one could've known what Tywin could have done but if we don't even know it was 100 people or 10 Tyrion may be misremembering .

Even one rape is horrendous, even by Westerosi standards, so it really doesn't matter whether Tyrion is misremembering or not.

3 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Also what did Tyrion thought was gonna happen after his whole childhood he saw Tywin obsessing over Lannister honor?

Um...scold him for being a lovesick fool, like any normal parent? Had Tywin committed a similar act before, you might have a point, but since he hadn't there was no way anyone could predict Tywin would it THAT far.

3 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Nobody is saying the rape was justified ,only that Tywin's murder was an over-reaction,all this time Tywin could have killed Tyrion after all he is responsible although involuntarily for the death of Tywin's on true love.But no he didn't and in killing him Tyrion proved himself the vilest of all Lannisters -a Monster ,a kinslayer.

If it was hard for Tyrion to lose Tysha imagine Tywin's feeling when the love of his life, his sweetheart ,his beloved ,his Better Half ,his world was taken from him after only 10 yrs of marriage .

Yeah, you're just trolling now.

Questioning Tysha's "innocence" is pretty much implying her punishment was justified. Taking Tywin's pov of Johanna's death as valid is implying his abuse of Tyrion was justified.

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Tywin ordered Tyrion's wife to be gangraped and then kicked out of the Westerlands, he then refused Tyrion's birthright, he forced him to marry the daughter of someone whose family had been wiped out by the Lannisters, he nearly caused his execution and he slept with his new GF. I feel sorry for Tyrion since he had tarnished his reputation due to kinslaying. However, what he did was right. 

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14 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Tywin deserved no better than dying on the toilet, murdered by the very monster he created. Hell, he deserved far, far worse.

Agreed. On both.

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14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

No one is apologizing for rape.  In other threads I have acknowledged that Tywin told Jaime to lie and say she was a whore he paid for.  I am suggesting it is possible that she consented to taking all the men and the gold instead of taking a beating and being thrown out empty handed.  I abhor rape, I abhor Varamyr Sixskins ans Ser Gregor and all of that.  I am just saying I don't believe we know enough facts about this incident that clearly was the biggest impact in a major characters formation.

Well... okay, Lucius, let's make a deal: you get a beating and then we kick you out, or you get sodomized by a couple dozen men and receive some nice coin. These are your options. Do you feel like you are being given a fair choice?

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The problem with rationalizing the gangrape of a star-struck 13 years old guy's wife, is that it then becomes very easily to rationalize said guy murdering the one that did this to him in the heat of the moment.

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6 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

And being a whore-monger is so nice for the reputation of your house.Add to that Tyrion was bloody useless to Tywin but he still didn't sent him to the wall or arranged an accident .

The dwarf regularly gets checked by Cersei and she isn't even the brightest Lannister,Tywin always had the choice to kick him to the curb but still he kept him under his protection and then Tyrion  outdid Theon and turned on his father.

You know, simply repeating your point again and again doesn't make your argument any more convincing. Maybe if you used bigger font, or bold, or italics, or all caps... (No, kidding, that doesn't actually work, either).

You need a little more than "his dad and sister hate him" to prove that Tyrion's behavior negatively affect House Lannister's reputation. And "he didn't kick him out" argument could be (and was, on occasion) used as justification for every abusive parent ever. "Father put roof over your head, money in your wallet, had the girl you loved raped by a hundred men before your eyes, don't be all that ungrateful" - nope, no sell.

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Also, 'I didn't murder you even though my wife died giving birth to you' isn't actually a demonstration of kindness or love. It's what's expected of parents. You know, to not murder your children.

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Posted (edited)

"Dad, thank you for ordering the gang rape of the only woman I've ever loved. I'm sorry I didn't appreciate the loving gesture at the time, but looking back I realize it made me the wholesome and emotionally stable man I am today. May you always have smooth bowel movements,

Your favorite son, Tyrion.

P.S.: Sis, if you're reading this, thank you for painfully twisting my cock when I was a baby. What fun times we had!"

Edited by Good Guy Garlan

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Yikes, now I know how I must look when I take my calculated digs at Daenerys. I don't think the OP is being completely unfair, but certainly a radical interpretation of events.

I agree Tyrion wasn't purely in the victim role in regards to Tywin. He certainly sought to defy and everyone in Westeros knows what Tywin Lannister is capable of doing to those that defy him. Though we know Tyrion to be a great thinker (most of the time), he is also a very sexual person that has to resort to whores due (at least in part) to his dwarfism. It must be frustrating to Tyrion that his father's attention is so fixated on his sexuality that Tywin doesn't even seem to notice (or if he does, doesn't criticize) Jaime and Cersei's sexual activity. While Tyrion being seen with whores may be shameful to Tywin's perceived family image, incest between twin siblings (one being the consort of the king!) is a much bigger scandal (they aren't Targaryens).

From Tywin's perspective, Tyrion was born a malformed freak that killed his beloved his wife, constantly haunts the prestige of his family name through his publically immoral and undignified behavior, and seeks to undermine his authority at all turns. From Tyrion's perspective, Tywin has mistreated him all his life simply because of a deformity outside of his control and does not hold his siblings (who get unconditional positive regard) to the same standards as he does Tyrion. Worst of all, Tyrion has always felt unloved and rejected by his only parent and believes that there is nothing he can do to ever change that. So why should he even try to please him?

It's fairly evident that Tywin would not shy away from doing away with Tyrion (short of kinslaying) the first chance he got. Despite Tywin's claims to the contrary, I'm not entirely convinced that Tywin did not intend to go through with the execution as it wouldn't be considered kinslaying by the public. Regardless, the fact that he's willing to exile Tyrion for life for a crime he likely knows he didn't commit was probably the last straw for him. Tyrion swooped in and saved the family from ruin by mitigating the follies of Joffrey and Cersei and repelling Stannis' initial attack. This is more than any of his family (minus Tywin) had done combined at that point, yet he doesn't receive the same praise and regard by any means. Seeing Shae only further fanned the flames of resentment and was the final push, though I am of the camp that Varys somehow pulled the strings for that entire event.

I think the main point here is that Tyrion may have experienced unparalleled wealth and privilege growing up, but he was denied the opportunity to be loved and respected by his powerful father. This is something that Jaime and Cersei receive unconditionally and that, for Tyrion, all the money in the realm couldn't buy. His father was ready to finally be rid of Tyrion, even after all the services rendered to his family (including the loss of his nose), simply because of an irrational hatred for him.

So, my opinion is no, this was not an overreaction on Tyrion's part. However, I think the trial and the escape (including finding Shae and grabbing the crossbow) was more than just the natural flow of events. I think manipulations were in place to instigate the deep resentment that has always been present in Tyrion. We see in subsequent books that this resentful, cynical personality comes to the forefront in him rather than his usual quirky and playful demeanor.

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Tywin placed him in the vanguard next to a river, with a bizarre force, probably expecting him to be killed.

 

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7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

So a victim who has suffered from abuse his whole life is over reacting?

These Tysha / "Tywin did nothing wrong" threads are always a hoot. Every time they crop up there's always like 2 or 3 people who will inevitably jump up to blame Tyrion for not being grateful enough of his father's abuse. It actually says a lot about the person(s). 

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1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

These Tysha / "Tywin did nothing wrong" threads are always a hoot. Every time they crop up there's always like 2 or 3 people who will inevitably jump up to blame Tyrion for not being grateful enough of his father's abuse. It actually says a lot about the person(s). 

YES! How this happened?

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5 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

These Tysha / "Tywin did nothing wrong" threads are always a hoot. Every time they crop up there's always like 2 or 3 people who will inevitably jump up to blame Tyrion for not being grateful enough of his father's abuse. It actually says a lot about the person(s). 

Also the bit where Tyrion did, after all murder Tywin's beloved wife. Nothing like a matricidal newborn ingrate... I'm kind of surprised that anyone who isn't Cersei or Tywin would actually ascribe Joanna's death to Tyrion like he executed it with malice aforethought.

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17 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I know he's been to Chataya's (and that as a cover story), but beside it?

And if it's about reputation, then who, except Tywin, ever mentions Tyrion's sex life? Who gives a grumkin's ass?

That passage at Chataya's was Tywin's IMO.

Probably no one. Tywin just is stupid for supposed Lannister pride? 

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This is ethics 101 guys: two wrongs don't make a right. 

Tyrion thinks of himself as a statesman, he is proud of having won the battle of the Blackwater and saved the realm, but then he turns around and kills Tywin, who is the main figure holding the realm together at this point. He betrays his own principals for emotional reasons.

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16 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You know, simply repeating your point again and again doesn't make your argument any more convincing. Maybe if you used bigger font, or bold, or italics, or all caps... (No, kidding, that doesn't actually work, either).

You need a little more than "his dad and sister hate him" to prove that Tyrion's behavior negatively affect House Lannister's reputation. And "he didn't kick him out" argument could be (and was, on occasion) used as justification for every abusive parent ever. "Father put roof over your head, money in your wallet, had the girl you loved raped by a hundred men before your eyes, don't be all that ungrateful" - nope, no sell.

 

What about all the times in ASOS Tywin tells him about his misgivings and fears during Robert's rebellion and even gives him a bit of fatherly advice here and there.He opens up about his deepest fears and says all about the hard choices he had to make.

And its not like Tywin doesn't already have a trusted advisor and confidant to whom he can open up. Lord Tywin answers all his questions, even on touchy subjects like the order for Aegon and Rhaenys's death. Is that something some one would do if he was planning to kill him or actually raise him among the elites .Casterly Rock is a tricky position and Jaime would be the preferred choice of any Lord if he can be freed from his vows and is alive. Add to that he gave him the position of master of coin which could have gone to some other Lannister crony but the dwarf can't stop complaining even then.

 

In fact Tywin gave him respect whenever it was due and always tried to correct his ways.But the needy complaining weakling that Tyrion is he still thinks he did more in one day than the people in his family who actually were fighting a war and not sitting in Red Keep sipping wine did over the course of months.

Having a woman as the leader of a house is hard enough and a dwarf as the Lord of the most powerful house might lead to instability out of mistrust or lack of respect. Something that Tywin or most any Lord would try to avoid. TBH how many dwarf lords have you heard of in 7k.Not to mention Jaime lost his claim because he was tricked into joining kingsguard by Cersei and if I remember it right he wasn't much older than Tyrion's age during Tysha incident when it happened so tell me is it right of Tyrion to lust for Jaime's birth right one that he was tricked into giving up and after coming to his senses he doesn't really hate it that much and is it really wrong to have the son who is a gifted leader and the most capable warrior ever to follow you instead of an ugly dwarf who can never stand on his own anywhere?

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19 hours ago, devilish said:

Tywin ordered Tyrion's wife to be gangraped and then kicked out of the Westerlands, he then refused Tyrion's birthright, he forced him to marry the daughter of someone whose family had been wiped out by the Lannisters, he nearly caused his execution and he slept with his new GF. I feel sorry for Tyrion since he had tarnished his reputation due to kinslaying. However, what he did was right. 

 

Cersei did proved that Tyrion had motive, not to mention he was the last person to touch that chalice.

Even modern day police would make him their prime suspect.

And he looked guilty as hell when Sansa was nowhere to be found.

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1 minute ago, shardofNarsil said:

 

Cersei did proved that Tyrion had motive, not to mention he was the last person to touch that chalice.

Even modern day police would make him their prime suspect.

And he looked guilty as hell when Sansa was nowhere to be found.

We're not referring to modern day police though isn't it but a family who exterminated innocent women and children throughout 2 generations of violence. Joffrey was a liability while Tyrion was an asset. If Tyrion did indeed kill the king then he was doing family a big favour just as Tywin is supposed to have done when he massacred the Reynes, Elia and her children + Robb Stark. 

At a time of crisis the Lannister should have stood together. Instead they went through a blood fest that ended up weakening their dynasty

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20 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Even one rape is horrendous, even by Westerosi standards, so it really doesn't matter whether Tyrion is misremembering or not.

 

Quote

That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection.-ADWD, Tyon 1

Seems like you are the troll or you missed all of the imp's chapter.

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13 minutes ago, devilish said:

We're not referring to modern day police though isn't it but a family who exterminated innocent women and children throughout 2 generations of violence. Joffrey was a liability while Tyrion was an asset. If Tyrion did indeed kill the king then he was doing family a big favour just as Tywin is supposed to have done when he massacred the Reynes, Elia and her children + Robb Stark. 

At a time of crisis the Lannister should have stood together. Instead they went through a blood fest that ended up weakening their dynasty

Tyrion was a loose cannon and that would be even more apparent if he had actually killed Joffrey and all evidence pointed in that direction.

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