In a Grove of Ash (Azor Ahai Goes into the Weirwoodnet)

[Unchained]

43 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, I plan on talking about this - someone showed me that a few weeks ago, I forget who. Might have been you. But yes, the godswoods are garths, and the weirs are garth trees. 

 

Wasn't me.  A few weeks ago is a few weeks before I thought of it.  Someone else gets that shoutout.  No thoughts on the three sisters?  Now they are really on my mind.  

 

36 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Now you are being pedantic!  Once one has language, one has poetry.

But I understand they are separate stories.

 

Damnit ravenous, calling me names I have to google to understand is not good for my fragile ego. I am trying very hard to pretend to be smart on the internet like god intended and you are not making it easy.;)

 

I got excited to talk about the mead of poetry.  Definitely something GRRM was thinking about no one has brought up I have seen.    

 

[Illyrio Po'Marties]

6 hours ago, Darry Man said:

You do realize this entire forum is dedicated to a series of 5+ novels, three novellas, several other short stories, one companion volume of in-world history, and a television series going onto its 7th season, don't you?

No I don't

[Unchained]

6 minutes ago, Illyrio Po'Marties said:

No I don't

Going through all of if you are behind is a bit daunting, but Darry man also has a point.  We are not in a hurry.  Plenty of time to break it up into pieces and catch up.  It is longer than your Illyrio = Rhaegar theory evidence which I honestly enjoyed.  I think it was summarized as "This".  A small difference of 19,999 words per topic  should not be a deal-breaker.   

[Illyrio Po'Marties]

11 minutes ago, Unchained said:

Going through all of if you are behind is a bit daunting, but Darry man also has a point.  We are not in a hurry.  Plenty of time to break it up into pieces and catch up.  It is longer than your Illyrio = Rhaegar theory evidence which I honestly enjoyed.  I think it was summarized as "This".  A small difference of 19,999 words per topic  should not be a deal-breaker.   

I said Illyrio was Rhaegar?

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Unchained said:

Wasn't me.  A few weeks ago is a few weeks before I thought of it.  Someone else gets that shoutout.  No thoughts on the three sisters?  Now they are really on my mind.  

 

I think they are called the 'three singers' although the three Norns (fates) of the Well of Urdr are inevitably evoked.  'Three singers', however, would link directly with three greenseers in the 'weirnet':

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Highgarden

The gods, both old and new, are well served in Highgarden. The splendor of the castle sept, with its rows of stained-glass windows celebrating the Seven and the ubiquitous Garth Greenhand, is rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown. And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

@LynnS would really like this theory.  She has been suggesting for some time that the 'three heads of the dragon' of Dany's prophecy is actually a warning about Dany's nemesis, the three heads of the old gods:  Bran, Jon and Arya.  (ETA: with the 'dragon' being Bloodraven)

Quote

Damnit ravenous, calling me names I have to google to understand is not good for my fragile ego. I am trying very hard to pretend to be smart on the internet like god intended and you are not making it easy.;)

 

I got excited to talk about the mead of poetry.  Definitely something GRRM was thinking about no one has brought up I have seen.    

Sorry Unchained, your 'self-deprecation' has broken my ice !  Indeed, we should look into that myth.  It's interesting as you point out that honey is so central to the mead ('honey' is notably related to the 'Meliai,' the ash nymphs, connecting it to weirwood bole), and is also the only 'flavor' shared in common between weirwood bole and shade of the evening.  After a brief perusal of the myth you referenced, it's interesting that 'blood' is also a common ingredient:

Quote

The Mead of Poetry

At the conclusion of the Aesir-Vanir War, the Aesir and Vanir gods and goddesses sealed their truce by spitting into a great vat. From their spittle they formed a being whom they named Kvasir (“Fermented Berry Juice”[1]). Kvasir was the wisest human that had ever lived; none were able to present him with a question for which he didn’t have a satisfying answer. He became famous and traveled throughout the world giving counsel.

Kvasir was invited to the home of two dwarves, Fjalar (“Deceiver”[2]) and Galar (“Screamer”[3]). Upon his arrival, the dwarves slew Kvasir and brewed mead with his blood. This mead contained Kvasir’s ability to dispense wisdom, and was appropriately named Óðrœrir (“Stirrer of Inspiration”). Any who drank of it would become a poet or a scholar.

There's an example of such 'mead' in ASOIAF when Maester Aemon's body is stored in the rum vat and later when Sam and Gilly are a bit tipsy it's unclear if they've taken a subsequent drink from that particular vat instead of the one not containing any bodies.  Drunk on this 'dragonfire juice' they are so inspired, they proceed to have sex!  In effect, Maester Aemon's dragonfire has not gone out as Sam announces in the eulogy; instead, his 'spirit' (pun intended) has been preserved in the 'blackbelly rum', which like the barrel from which Tyrion hatched is an analog to the weirwood:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I like you too, Sam," whispered Gilly. "And I like this drink. It tastes like fire."

Yes, Sam thought, a drink for dragons. Their cups were empty, so he went over to the cask and filled them once again. The sun was low in the west, he saw, swollen to thrice its proper size. Its ruddy light made Gilly's face seem flushed and red. They drank a cup to Kojja Mo, and one to Dalla's boy, and one to Gilly's babe back on the Wall. And after that nothing would do but to drink two cups for Aemon of House Targaryen. "May the Father judge him justly," Sam said, sniffing. The sun was almost gone by the time they were done with Maester Aemon. Only a long thin line of red still glowed upon the western horizon, like a slash across the sky. Gilly said that the drink was making the ship spin round, so Sam helped her down the ladder to the women's quarters in the bow of the ship.

The barrel like the weirwood keeps Aemon's spirit alive and burning, so his ember does not die out.

Along these lines, we uncovered some poems and songs, the traditional song 'John Barleycorn' and two by Jethro Tull, which you might enjoy on our poetry thread.  I would love it if you left me a poem, or two...

[Unchained]

24 minutes ago, Illyrio Po'Marties said:

I said Illyrio was Rhaegar?

It's not 4-1-17, Aprils fools nor 4-20-17, seeweed day.  I assumed you were @Illyrio Mo'Parties.  Are you really not?  I have been wrong plenty before, but c'mon.  I you are really not, many apologies.  

 

@ravenous reader,

 

My self-deprecating style is only half not serious half the time.;)  I do think the mead of poetry is an underrated aspect of the story and is behind shade and Jojen paste.  It is knowledge in edible form.  You are right I got another name wrong.  They are the three singers, and as usual you took it to another level with the Aemon drink.  That really seems like it is meant to be a reference to drinking the corpse of the most wise person we see.  

[Illyrio Po'Marties]

3 minutes ago, Unchained said:

It's not 4-1-17, Aprils fools nor 4-20-17, seeweed day.  I assumed you were @Illyrio Mo'Parties.

Who? I think you're confusing me with someone else, friend. My name is Po'Marties. I don't know who this "Mo'Parties" person you're talking about is.

[Unchained]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Po'Marties said:

Who? I think you're confusing me with someone else, friend. My name is Po'Marties. I don't know who this "Mo'Parties" person you're talking about is.

Thank you for removing the sliver of doubt I still had about who you were.  

[LmL]

50 minutes ago, Illyrio Po'Marties said:

Who? I think you're confusing me with someone else, friend. My name is Po'Marties. I don't know who this "Mo'Parties" person you're talking about is.

PoMarties, I did a couple videos with History of Westeros about Asshai and ancient dragonlords, you might find those more entertaining perhaps:

 

[Bluetiger]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It might also be worth noting that St Peter the founder of the Roman Catholic church was hanged upside down.  He's the first Pope and first to occupy the chair of the Holy See, which is both a figurative seat as well as a literal one -- in fact, it's an oaken seat, a wooden throne!  (see the 'Chair of St Peter').  Similarly, Bran presides over his own holy 'see' -- representing the expansion/dispersion of power of the greenseer king 'under the sea'.

 

I guess that's why Ned thinks that Bran can become the 'pope':

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

"He was going to be a knight," Arya was saying now. "A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?"

"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

And, Pope Gregory VII's birth name was Hildebrand (that's the one who is famous for feud with Emperor Henry IV).

BTW, pope Adrian IV's birth name was Nicolas Breakspear. Well, I guess that's where Baelor Breakspear comes from.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think they are called the 'three singers' although the three Norns (fates) of the Well of Urdr are inevitably evoked.  'Three singers', however, would link directly with three greenseers in the 'weirnet':

@LynnS would really like this theory.  She has been suggesting for some time that the 'three heads of the dragon' of Dany's prophecy is actually a warning about Dany's nemesis, the three heads of the old gods:  Bran, Jon and Arya.  (ETA: with the 'dragon' being Bloodraven)

Sorry Unchained, your 'self-deprecation' has broken my ice !  Indeed, we should look into that myth.  It's interesting as you point out that honey is so central to the mead ('honey' is notably related to the 'Meliai,' the ash nymphs, connecting it to weirwood bole), and is also the only 'flavor' shared in common between weirwood bole and shade of the evening.  After a brief perusal of the myth you referenced, it's interesting that 'blood' is also a common ingredient:

There's an example of such 'mead' in ASOIAF when Maester Aemon's body is stored in the rum vat and later when Sam and Gilly are a bit tipsy it's unclear if they've taken a subsequent drink from that particular vat instead of the one not containing any bodies.  Drunk on this 'dragonfire juice' they are so inspired, they proceed to have sex!  In effect, Maester Aemon's dragonfire has not gone out as Sam announces in the eulogy; instead, his 'spirit' (pun intended) has been preserved in the 'blackbelly rum', which like the barrel from which Tyrion hatched is an analog to the weirwood:

The barrel like the weirwood keeps Aemon's spirit alive and burning, so his ember does not die out.

Along these lines, we uncovered some poems and songs, the traditional song 'John Barleycorn' and two by Jethro Tull, which you might enjoy on our poetry thread.  I would love it if you left me a poem, or two...

Don't forget Edd's crack about his brother drowning in wine and Edd says his brother didn't improve the vintage. And Joffrey wanting to drown Dontos in a barrel as well. And we also get opposite of this with Grif taking the sour wine to treat the advance of the greyscale.

[Bluetiger]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think they are called the 'three singers' although the three Norns (fates) of the Well of Urdr are inevitably evoked.  'Three singers', however, would link directly with three greenseers in the 'weirnet':

 

 I'm inclined to agree. They're probably reference to Norns. But also to Shakespeare's Weird Sisters/Wayward Sisters/Three Witches. But it doesn't really matter which one GRRM wants us to think about here - they are all connected with Trinity of Fate Gods/Goddesses, like Greek Moirai (Threads of Fate), Roman Parcae, Germanic Matres etc. 

But there's curious word choice in that passage:

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Highgarden

The gods, both old and new, are well served in Highgarden. The splendor of the castle sept, with its rows of stained-glass windows celebrating the Seven and the ubiquitous Garth Greenhand, is rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown. And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

After all those mentions of The Faith of the Seven (Seven who are One) we get three beings that are one. That's a nod to The Holy Trinity, I think.

And that tranquil pool is the Well of Urd.

So, all of this tells us that weirwoods, weirnet and those who enter it (Garths) can be seen as gods, especially Gods of Fate. 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

 

 I'm inclined to agree. They're probably reference to Norns. But also to Shakespeare's Weird Sisters/Wayward Sisters/Three Witches. But it doesn't really matter which one GRRM wants us to think about here - they are all connected with Trinity of Fate Gods/Goddesses, like Greek Moirai (Threads of Fate), Roman Parcae, Germanic Matres etc. 

But there's curious word choice in that passage:

 

After all those mentions of The Faith of the Seven (Seven who are One) we get three beings that are one. That's a nod to The Holy Trinity, I think.

And that tranquil pool is the Well of Urd.

So, all of this tells us that weirwoods, weirnet and those who enter it (Garths) can be seen as gods, especially Gods of Fate. 

Yes, that's more or less what I got out of it. It solidifies all the garth connections to weirwoods. @Unchained, I didn't have anything to add beyond the obvious. I did however notice that Highgarden is a labyrinth, like I was saying. Would you believed it was burned one time? When Garth Greybeard ruled. 

[Darry Man]

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I read your thread -- excellent observations!  True, the two venues are weirwood symbols, especially represented by the chestnut tree (the watcher guarding the bridge with the raven in its branches) that Jon sees near Mole's Town and the gatehouse tower 'its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin'.at Moat Cailin.  The weirwood portal motif.  Moat Cailin is located physically at a crossing, i.e. the Neck, hammering home the point.  If you like these parallels, you might enjoy @Wizz-The-Smith's classic 'Hollow Hills' thread.  Mole's Town, Moat Cailin and many other venues are configured as 'hollow hills', which Wizz has linked to greenseeing.  In fact, the weirwood itself is a hollow hill, or passage between worlds, of sorts too!

Thanks. Yeah, I had noticed that the chestnut was by the bridge, whereas Robb's army created a bridge of planks through the Neck as well. I was definitely aware of this symbolic relationship.

I've heard of these parallels of various hollow hills generally but I need to read this definitive study now. I had previously thought that there had to be a weirwood above these hills to create the magical cave, but seeing this feature at both Mole's Town and Moat Cailin has opened up the possibilities.

 

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In terms of the weirwood motif, another reason Reek's trip as a messenger for Ramsay might be contrasted with Jon's is that in future Reek will undergo a further journey, seeking entry at the foot of a weirwood, and be symbolically 'baptised' or 'branded,' as I like to say, by Bran via the heart tree reaching over to open his third eye symbolically (when the five-fingered bloodstained leaf, which is simultaneously a fiery brand, grazes his forehead)-- receiving back his 'godly' name, and becoming Bran's messenger instead.  Thus, in the end Theon becomes 'a well trained raven' for the Starks -- the very thing of which his father accused him, prompting him to betray the Starks in the first place.  

Now this is something I had not considered. Theon as a Westerosi Hermes, travelling to and from the underworld. I like it!

[Bluetiger]

44 minutes ago, Darry Man said:

Now this is something I had not considered. Theon as a Westerosi Hermes, travelling to and from the underworld. I like it!

This made me think of:

Quote

"Unless Lord Frey tells him," Catelyn said sharply. "Theon, when you return to my uncle, tell him he is to place his best bowmen around the Twins, day and night, with orders to bring down any raven they see leaving the battlements. I want no birds bringing word of my son's movements to Lord Tywin."

"Ser Brynden has seen to it already, my lady," Theon replied with a cocky smile. "A few more blackbirds, and we should have enough to bake a pie. I'll save you their feathers for a hat."

She ought to have known that Brynden Blackfish would be well ahead of her. "What have the Freys been doing while the Lannisters burn their fields and plunder their holdfasts?"

 

[Darry Man]

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

This made me think of:

"Ser Brynden has seen to it already, my lady," Theon replied with a cocky smile. "A few more blackbirds, and we should have enough to bake a pie. I'll save you their feathers for a hat."

Wow. Nice catch!

[LmL]

On the topic of the Three Singers weirwoods at Highgarden: check out the Kingsguard weirwood table. I forgot it had three legs:

Quote

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

Stallions and trees are the same in the context of Yggdrasil being a gallows tree, and of course the weirs seem like gallows trees too in the sense that the greenseer is hung on them. Anyway, this is the only other weirwood 'triplet' I can think of, so I thought I would mention it. 

[Darry Man]

Kinda disappointed that LmL didn't bring up "Bull + Weir = Bulwer" when discussing ol' Black Jack, may the Father judge him justly.

 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

On the subject of lightning and trees, LmL, have you looked at some of the Western mystical stuff about the Tree of Life, the Flaming Sword, the Lightning Flash, and the Serpent? It all fits with the main thread topic, and probably dovetails with Yggdrasil et al nicely.

[cgrav]

Just read this last night. Gotta do some digesting before I have any new thoughts.

But, I did notice something cool about the Grove of Nine scene: it's like a prologue to the prologue, with the Night's Watchmen playing the role of the Others. They sneak up silently on a group of wildlings in a grove (complete with a small fire) and then "assimilate" them by force. That is, they gave them a manner of second life south of the Wall, which is the realm that represents life. It's just like how the Others give the undead a second life as zombies north of the Wall.

@LmL I'm also curious if you will be investigating the Ebony tree as a transformed counterpart to the Weirwood. Knowing what we know about "gates" to the underworld and non-linear time, I've been thinking about the vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying.