RevaM

DID G.R.R.M say anything about possible arya/ jon romance/ reunion????

167 posts in this topic

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

And I think sometimes people forget that George started the outline letter telling the agent upfront that he has no idea how it is all going to play out:

"As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it.

Actually, I've been reading some of grrm's interviews and he says that he knows how the story will end but not the details. he also knows how the main character's arcs is gonna be like

Here is the quote:

"Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing." 

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G.R.R.M sounds like a robot or a super computer that takes years to process your request. 

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25 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

G.R.R.M sounds like a robot or a super computer that takes years to process your request. 

and what do you mean by that?

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4 hours ago, RevaM said:

BTW Doesn't Ned reply to arya by saying she will marry a king and will have his children and etc.?

Well, you caught me in a little hyperbole about the original plotline being out the window. Still, let's look at Ned and Arya's conversation, per the example of Ser Leech:

Quote

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councilor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "That's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

So, you were right. And yet, it makes no sense, because it's Sansa (as Arya noted so astutely) that's been designated to marry the king. THE king; it's not like there are several (at this point in the story) to choose from. What's Ned thinking? He's probably groggy from lack of sleep at this point.

This is why I favor Arya's interpretation - that she aspires to be part of the power structure, someone with accomplishments, responsibilities and respect based on what she does. Not a glorified brood sow with a good pedigree. It would be a tragedy if Lady Brood Sow were Arya's fate. Not that this isn't a possibility; George RR is cruel. But as far as what Arya would strive and work towards, it's the position as councilor or even Hand to the king.

4 hours ago, RevaM said:

If you prefer them as platonic then its fine, really it is. 

Well, I was thinking with a 20th/21st century mindset here. I recall the widespread horror at Woody Allen marrying his adoptive daughter - who was not related to him at all - and comparing it with de facto brother-sister conjoining - although they're apparently just cousins. (Something also forbidden in recent history here. Although Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were cousins... well, let's not go there.)

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Arya will die in the last book I think. Too many hints at it. No way GRRM has a good end in mind for a character he's given such lines to like "the lone wolf dies, while the pack survives", "I hope your princess dies", and "they'll find you in Spring frozen with your needle in hand."

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Arya and Jon will have feeling for each other that are complicated by Tyrion Lassister falling in love with Arya too.  But this can't happen until after Sansa marries Joffrey and bears him a child after which she chooses her new family over the Starks, Jaime kills his way to the Iron throne, Bran immerses himself in magic for the sake of magic, Daenerys avenges the death of her brother by killing Khal Drogo and Catelyn gets killed north of the Wall by the Others. 

I can't wait!  :D

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4 hours ago, PCK said:

Arya will die in the last book I think. Too many hints at it. No way GRRM has a good end in mind for a character he's given such lines to like "the lone wolf dies, while the pack survives", "I hope your princess dies", and "they'll find you in Spring frozen with your needle in hand."

Agree, Arya's a goner.

Arya's role in the original narrative seems to have largely been taken over by Meera (not surprisingly there are many Jon/Meera theories about them being siblings, future lovers, or both).  I do think they will be reunited at the Twins in the last book, but it will probably only be Jon finding Arya dead in the snow.

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Arya may die, but I'm not convinced of that yet. GRRM also puts red herrings in his books to mislead people too. Arya's fate was never just to become an assassin or tools of the Faceless men, then die. She has a much bigger part to play than that.

Also, Arya's own thoughts in the book have contradicted the "lone wolf dies, while the packs survives" line. She has looked at it as most of the pack are dead, yet she, the lone wolf, still lives.

 

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17 hours ago, zandru said:

So, you were right. And yet, it makes no sense, because it's Sansa (as Arya noted so astutely) that's been designated to marry the king. THE king; it's not like there are several (at this point in the story) to choose from. What's Ned thinking? He's probably groggy from lack of sleep at this point.

This is why I favor Arya's interpretation - that she aspires to be part of the power structure, someone with accomplishments, responsibilities and respect based on what she does. Not a glorified brood sow with a good pedigree. It would be a tragedy if Lady Brood Sow were Arya's fate. Not that this isn't a possibility; George RR is cruel. But as far as what Arya would strive and work towards, it's the position as councilor or even Hand to the king.

So? bran wanted to be a knight so grrm broke his legs, sansa wanted to marry a prince and be queen so she got joffrey instead, arya doesn't want to be a queen BUT her direwolf's name is nymeria (named after a warrior queen) and do you really think martin will give her what she wants?

and imho she would be the perfect queen. she fits all of varys' criteria of how a perfect ruler should be like:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."-Varys to Kevan Lannister 

Arya is educated and can read and write and is very good at math. The faceless men has taught her bravoosi and few extra languages too (like pentoshi and whatever languages exist there). she knows different kinds of faiths, again thanks to the facelessmen. she lived among the commoners after eddard's death and she spent time with the commoners back at winterfell too (according to sansa, arya loved spending time with the commoners and she played with their kids. and her friend was butcher's son so). she can take care of herself, she can clean and cook and bind up wounds. she knows what its like to be hungry, to be hunted and afraid. and even extra: she can lie and detect lies.

17 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, I was thinking with a 20th/21st century mindset here. I recall the widespread horror at Woody Allen marrying his adoptive daughter - who was not related to him at all - and comparing it with de facto brother-sister conjoining - although they're apparently just cousins. (Something also forbidden in recent history here. Although Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were cousins... well, let's not go there.)

Listen bud, i also don't support incest irl; but this is fiction, a fantasy, a MEDIEVAL Fantasy. I remove my 21st century goggles when i read this book and try to see it from its perspective. 

Edited by RevaM

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Ned's comments were wishful thinking IMO. He's saying "you won't always be a tomboy, one day when you're older you'll want to be married and have babies" and Arya is saying "no, that's Sansa".

I'm really grossed out by the idea of Jon/Arya, more than any other incest pairing in this story. I think it's because they were raised together as brother and sister, and she was so young when they parted - the idea that he's going to develop romantic or sexual feelings towards her once she hits puberty is kind of icky. And yet I don't really have a problem with Jon/Dany or Targ incest in general, just these two. Even Jon/Sansa is less disturbing, mainly because she's older and had an entirely different relationship to Jon growing up than Arya did. 

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Just wait until Arya goes in heat.  It won't be long after and she will have Jon's litter.

The story would seem to support a Jon-Arya love affair.  Human form or dog form it seems they could be headed for romance.

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12 hours ago, zandru said:

So, you were right. And yet, it makes no sense, because it's Sansa (as Arya noted so astutely) that's been designated to marry the king. THE king; it's not like there are several (at this point in the story) to choose from. What's Ned thinking? He's probably groggy from lack of sleep at this point.

"Groggy" is the best explanation? ^_^

That whole scene was precisely crafted by George and has an usually similar air to the scene with Cersei and Maggy the Frog:

Quote

“Three questions may you ask,” [Maggy the Frog] said, once she’d had her drink. “You will not like my answers. Ask, or begone with you.”

Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee. But the girl did not have sense enough to be afraid.

“When will I wed the prince?” she asked.

“Never. You will wed the king.”

Beneath her golden curls, the girl’s face wrinkled up in puzzlement. - (Cersei, A Feast for Crows)

~*~

It's Arya that asks 3 questions:

Arya cocked her head to one side. “Can I be a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?”

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.

Arya screwed up her face. - (Eddard, A Game of Thrones)

 

_________________

Ned answers each of Arya's questions in an odd way as well:

~

ARYA: Can I be a king’s councillor?

NED: You will marry a King. (A Queen can be a King's Counsellor - case in point: Alysanne Targaryen (who became Queen at 12 years old, marrying her brother)

~

ARYA: [Can I] build castles?

NED: [You will] rule his castle. (As a Queen would.)

~

ARYA: [Can I] become the High Septon?

NED: Your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon. 

~

Both Cersei and Arya don't understand. But fate has a funny way of happening. As we see play out with Cersei.

Ned wasn't groggy. He was an instrument of foreshadowing. He had another conversation with his other daughter telling her she would marry a High Lord, making her a Lady. 

 

Quote

This is why I favor Arya's interpretation - that she aspires to be part of the power structure, someone with accomplishments, responsibilities and respect based on what she does. Not a glorified brood sow with a good pedigree. It would be a tragedy if Lady Brood Sow were Arya's fate. Not that this isn't a possibility; George RR is cruel. But as far as what Arya would strive and work towards, it's the position as councilor or even Hand to the king.

The people Arya looks up to were powerful women in a lot of ways - including through motherhood.Why is that a bad thing? What is there to disparage. "Glorified brood sow". Like Queen Nymeria was and the other 2 Lady brood sows who helped conquer Westeros...etc. This is just perplexing to me. 

If you think George is going to give these Stark kids the fate they all wanted and expected... then I think we're in for some major disappointment. 9 year old Arya never wanted to be a Lady. Yet she is learning how to be anything she needs to be - while remaining herself on the inside. The setup is already available for George to go down whatever path he wishes. The bittersweet ending that has Arya sacrificing her freedom and taking on a role that forces her to become something she never thought she would be... seems like a GRRM-ing things to do.  

 

 

 

Edited by DutchArya

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39 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Just wait until Arya goes in heat.  It won't be long after and she will have Jon's litter.

The story would seem to support a Jon-Arya love affair.  Human form or dog form it seems they could be headed for romance.

Ah, yes. The direwolf option.

That would be an interesting direction for the plot to follow, indeed.

Edited by Prof. Cecily
Clarifying the text. I am only on my second coffee, after all.

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1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Ned's comments were wishful thinking IMO. He's saying "you won't always be a tomboy, one day when you're older you'll want to be married and have babies" and Arya is saying "no, that's Sansa".

I'm really grossed out by the idea of Jon/Arya, more than any other incest pairing in this story. I think it's because they were raised together as brother and sister, and she was so young when they parted - the idea that he's going to develop romantic or sexual feelings towards her once she hits puberty is kind of icky. And yet I don't really have a problem with Jon/Dany or Targ incest in general, just these two. Even Jon/Sansa is less disturbing, mainly because she's older and had an entirely different relationship to Jon growing up than Arya did. 

If that were the case, he would have given her the same talk he gave Sansa. Do you not see how weird that all looks? One daughter was going to marry a future King and the other just wants to play in dirt and practice at sword-play. The "No, that's Sansa" line throws people like you off which seems intentional by the author. It's not the first time George has used that kind of deflection either. But if you want to believe Ned's convo with Arya makes any kind of sense (wishful-thinking, comforting his wild child daughter by telling her she will marry a King and have lots of babies...etc) and think that's remotely realistic and warrants no further examination... then ;) dunno what to say. 

By the time Jon & Arya meet again, they will be very different people. The Jon that returns from being dead will not be the same Jon than Arya last saw at Winterfell. Arya is going through a transformation as well. We already have Jon wondering if he would even be able to recognize her again? Arya doesn't think Jon will be calling her "little sister" anymore. Jon seems rather ambivalent when it comes to bedding a sibling if you consider his conversation with Ygritte about Longspear. ...etc.

 

 

 

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I will say this, I like the Jon/Arya pairing much more then I like the Jon/Sansa pairing. Arya was literally the only girl who gave a fig about Jon growing up and not only that she chose him as her favorite. Sansa meanwhile pretended he didn't exist when she could have made a attempt to have some sort of relationship with him.

If Jon and Arya happen say around 7 years after they last saw each other it wouldn't really bother me since Arya will be a full grown women.

Though I'm not big on pairings when it comes to this series. Like others have mentioned rarely do love stories happen without some sort of tragic ending. If Jon and Arya do fall for each other he might have to nissa nissa her or something.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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22 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ah, yes. The direwolf option.

That would be an interesting direction for the plot to follow, indeed.

As far as we know, Nymeria is acting very much like an Alpha wolf. Not mating with any of her "grey cousins" a distinction Arya suddenly makes in ADwD (after previously only calling her pack members brothers & sisters) Nymeria only showed submissiveness to Ghost and Nym even forgot Arya for a moment so she can follow Ghost - a scene in AGoT. Was Ghost the Alpha of her original pack?

Jon's connection to Ghost and his warging abilities will be so much stronger once he is resurrected. Arya's return to Westeros and finding her direwolf (combined with other skin-changing ability) how much stronger will he connection with Nymeria be as well? 

Edited by DutchArya

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34 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

As far as we know, Nymeria is acting very much like an Alpha wolf. Not mating with any of her "grey cousins" a distinction Arya suddenly makes in ADwD (after previously only calling her pack members brothers & sisters) Nymeria only showed submissiveness to Ghost and Nym even forgot Arya for a moment so she can follow Ghost - a scene in AGoT. Was Ghost the Alpha of her original pack?

Jon's connection to Ghost and his warging abilities will be so much stronger once he is resurrected. Arya's return to Westeros and finding her direwolf (combined with other skin-changing ability) how much stronger will he connection with Nymeria be as well? 

I'm constantly being pulled up in my ideas by remembering the HBO production and the ASOIAF series are completely different things. 

And just now, I realised we don't  any idea that GRRM plans on resurrecting Jon, do we?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow

The entry end thus "... in the confusion resulting from Wun Wun's killing of Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, he is stabbed repeatedly by Bowen Marsh and other black brothers, who attack in tears while muttering "for the Watch". Whether or not Jon survives this attack is currently unknown."

 

Anyway, the idea of a Ghost and Nymeria hookup is pleasing, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

The "No, that's Sansa" line throws people like you off which seems intentional by the author.

Of course, I'm not clever or perceptive enough to understand the words I'm reading. Thanks for pointing that out in a not-at-all patronising way.

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40 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I'm constantly being pulled up in my ideas by remembering the HBO production and the ASOIAF series are completely different things. 

And just now, I realised we don't  any idea that GRRM plans on resurrecting Jon, do we?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow

The entry end thus "... in the confusion resulting from Wun Wun's killing of Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, he is stabbed repeatedly by Bowen Marsh and other black brothers, who attack in tears while muttering "for the Watch". Whether or not Jon survives this attack is currently unknown."

 

Anyway, the idea of a Ghost and Nymeria hookup is pleasing, isn't it?

Pleasing? Dunno. But it would be a controversial chapter for sure! Would George have the nerves to write it? :o;)

Nothing is certain until George releases the next book. The manner of Jon's "resurrection" will almost certainly be different to what D&D mashed together. 

16 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Of course, I'm not clever or perceptive enough to understand the words I'm reading. Thanks for pointing that out in a not-at-all patronising way.

I wasn't trying to be patronising so I apologise if that's what you feel happened. 

 

 

Edited by DutchArya

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Euch, I wouldn't mind to keep the incest to a minimum. I will never get how this appeals to people as a romantic possibility. (growing up as actual siblings is the problem of course, not being cousins. Being aunt and nephew on the other hand, euch) Just let Jon be single until the end of the series, please. 

I hope GRRM saw the light after actually writing their sweet sibling relationship. The lack of 5 year gap should do the rest. 

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