Harry & Sansa (Littlefinger is delusional)

[Tralalala]

Whatever the author decides will work and works is his plan and it doesn't make much sense. What if Harry decides he doesn't want to play ball? Sure say he find Sansa super hot or whatever but he just dosen't want to go to war,aka what if he turned to be next walder frey?

[Prof. Cecily]

17 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

There are two reasons that make sense to me for LF's scheming to marry Sansa to Harry. The first is that winter is coming.

Sansa was pretty isolated up at the Eyrie, with no way to escape (because it's so difficult to get down from there) and nobody to cultivate who has any kind of power who help her. She was so isolated, in fact, that Littlefinger felt confident enough to leave her alone there for periods of time.

But with winter arriving, everyone needs to be brought down into the valley and there Sansa will have lots of contact with other people: the nobility and lords of the Vale, who congregate in the castles lower down. This leads to the second reason why LF is dangling Harry in front of Sansa.

Due to Sansa having a lot more people around her, LF strongly needs her to remain loyal to and dependent upon him. He can't have her cultivate relationships with other lords who might figure out (or be told by her) who she really is, who she could then turn to for help in any way. So he's trying to bind her more closely to him, by promising her what he thinks she wants: a handsome lord and her birthright, provided she sticks with him and his plans, that is. It's only so she might be less tempted to extricate herself from him, not because he is sincere in wanting her and Harry to marry.

How can Sansa Stark create relations with other lords? She's a fugitive wanted for regicide. 

And Alayne Stone?

She has lied in the investigation about Lady Lysa's death. Revealing her real identity makes her little more than a kinslayer, which technically, she is, AFAIK. In as much as she has obscured the circumstances of her aunt's demise.

14 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What bothers me about Sansa and LF in the Vale is this.

Sansa is the wife of Tyrion and a fugitive in hiding because she is thought to be involved in King Joffrey’s death. I'm thinking LF is taking advantage/playing Sansa.

LF spins this marvelous idea to Sansa (13 years of age ?) about being revealed at her & Harry’s wedding and the Vale lords bowing down to Eddard Starks daughter.

Sansa is married and a fugitive. The Iron Throne, the seat of power in Westeros is held by the Lannisters who want Sansa and Tyrion for the death of the King. Would the Vale lords defy the King/Throne?

The Mad Mouse has arrived at Sansa’s location. Somehow he got information about Sansa’s whereabouts? Brienne was wandering around looking for the girl. Brienne gets part of her face bitten off, ends up at LSH's place, gets partially hanged, shouts out a word and ends up seeking out Jaime.

It doesn’t make sense. What's LF up to? If the Lannister's lose the Throne/Crown LF has no clout. Revealing Sansa to the Vale lords would cause a dilemma. They would have to go against the Throne or deliver Sansa to the Crown.

It will be interesting to read how this works out.

 

I quite agree, @Clegane'sPup.

Interesting, indeed.

[chrisdaw]

 

46 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

Whatever the author decides will work and works is his plan and it doesn't make much sense. What if Harry decides he doesn't want to play ball? Sure say he find Sansa super hot or whatever but he just dosen't want to go to war,aka what if he turned to be next walder frey?

He's not trusting in Harry's nature without having made an effort to learn his nature.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

How can Sansa Stark create relations with other lords? She's a fugitive wanted for regicide. 

Well, time and more books will tell. But I think it's not an accident that the Vale lords were champing at the bit to get involved in the War of 5 Kings, on the side of Robb Stark against the Lannisters. There's definite set-up for the lords to care nothing about Cersei and her "justice" and might prefer to protect Sansa against her as the nearest relative left to the Young Wolf.

 

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

And Alayne Stone?

She has lied in the investigation about Lady Lysa's death. Revealing her real identity makes her little more than a kinslayer, which technically, she is, AFAIK. In as much as she has obscured the circumstances of her aunt's demise.

I disagree that Sansa can be considered a kinslayer in her aunt's death, technically or otherwise. She didn't cause it in any way; "kinslaying" =/= "being in the vicinity of the murder of kin". Especially since Sansa was only acting in self-defense all along anyway.

She's complicit in lying about Baelish's role and blaming it on Marillion. Easiest thing in the world to blame Baelish for that lie: "He forced me! I had no choice or he would turn me over to Cersei!", something the Vale lords might have little-to-no difficulty accepting.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

 

I agree that Sansa is not a kinslayer. Her auntie was going to shove her out the moon door until LF intervened. Sansa is complicit and she did lie about the event. Combine that with Sansa Lannister is wanted for kingslaying. It’s one of those beard rubbing, head scratching moments.

The Vale lords already distrust LF and Sansa (his daughter) has lied to them. According to the Lannisters who are in control of the IT the Starks are traitors. Sansa is the wife of Tyrion. The pretty little picture LF is spinning to Sansa that her reveal at her wedding to Harry is going to make the Vale bow to Eddard’s daughter is false. LF is pimping her.

As someone mentioned Sansa is going to be interacting with more people now that the tourney is going to take place. How is she going to convince people of her innocence against the crimes she is charged with? OR is the 13 year old going to spill the beans to someone who, like Cersei, cause her great harm?

She lied about who killed her auntie.  She has no credibility and it doesn’t change that she is Tyrion’s wife and that she is wanted by the Throne for being part of King Joffrey’s death.

It’s going to be interesting to see how the Sansa/Alyanne and LF story works out. What is LF’s game?  The big shots in the Vale don’t like him and don’t trust him. Why would they believe Alyanne is Sansa Stark nee Lannister?

Would the Vale hot shots go against the Crown now that Robb Stark, King of the North, is dead and Roose Bolton, proclaimed Warden of the North by the Throne, is in possession of WF?

BTW there is a snow storm happening at Stannis’ crofter’s village and Roose’s WF. LC Snow as of the end of DwD is indisposed. I have a real difficult time imaging the Vale lords leaving a tourney and riding to WF. How long do you suppose the journey from the Vale to WF would take? AND would Reed let them through?  Questions. Questions.

[Lord Varys]

On 21.4.2017 at 0:27 PM, rotting sea cow said:

As we see the whole thing through Sansa's head, we go along with the plan, despite the evidence of the contrary in the same chapter! Littlefinger is delusional here. It's not gonna work. Vale nobility is one of the most conservative in Westeros.

That isn't an issue because Harrold Hardyng is just the heir presumptive to the Vale of Arryn, and not exactly born to high nobility. He is a Hargyng which is basically a nobody. Harry will only be somebody of importance if Lord Robert Arryn dies without issue. Right now that looks rather likely but if nothing came of that 'hope' Harrold would remain a nobody.

A man of Harry's birth - who is neither a lord nor a landed knight in his own right as far as we know - certainly can marry the natural daughter of a great lord. Or at least betroth himself to her. People open objecting to this would admit by doing so that they either wish for Lord Robert's death or don't expect him to have children of their own. If Robert was a king that would be treason, basically. So while a lot of lords in the Vale are likely to be somewhat pissed that Littlefinger secured Harry's hand for his daughter they are not exactly in the position to open object to the match.

It would be different, one imagines, if Harry had been born an Arryn, being Elbert's son or something like that. But he is not.

On 21.4.2017 at 5:32 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The real issue here is that if Robert dies and Harry becomes heir, LF looses all power in the Vale.  That 1 fact makes me not understand what the hell LF's plan is.  Part of me thinks this is all cover so he can kill Harry without having the blame put on him "why would I kill the man my daughter was betrothed to?!?"  is all he would have to say.

That is not clear. We don't know whether Harry is already a man grown. If he was it would be very odd that Lady Anya had the right to arrange his marriage. Harry is a Waynwood through the female line but the Hardyngs are a minor noble house in their own right and as far as we know lords only rule the marriages of members of their own house, not the marriages of their vassals and more distant kin.

If Harry was already a man grown he and he alone would decide who he marries, not Lady Anya Waynwood. But if he was still 14-15 or so then he might still be Lady Anya's ward.

But aside from that Littlefinger's power usually rests more with informal power than actual titles and such. As things stand all the Lords Declarant aside from Bronze Yohn Royce are his now, in addition to Lord Lyonel Corbray and the Gulltown houses Grafton and Shett. Littlefinger does not necessarily have to remain Lord Protector of the Vale to continue to call the shots there. Just as he did not need to be Hand of the King to influence Joffrey and exert a lot of power at court.

He may intend to control Harry through Sansa and the informal power he exerts in the Vale.

We can, however, be reasonably sure that Littlefinger wants Sansa for himself. That is very clear. So the entire Harry thing is either a complete charade - just another lesson for Sansa to learn to play the game by manipulating a young man - or merely the next step to gain more influence in the Vale.

If Littlefinger didn't tell Sansa the truth about his ultimate goal with the Harry plan the point of the entire match might be to set up Sansa as a Lysa 2.0. If Harry married and impregnated her and then died she would essentially control the next heir to the Vale. I'm not sure things will go in that direction but since it is pretty obvious that the Winterfell plan Littlefinger laid out for Sansa was something they intend to do next spring not in the middle of winter a lot could have happened during winter.

But now we can be pretty certain that Aegon's arrival will trigger a series of events that will involve the Vale lords finally committing themselves to one of the factions, and both Sansa and Harry might play a role in all that.

A Targaryen prince would be a much better husband for Sansa Stark than the heir presumptive of (or even) the Lord of the Vale. If Littlefinger wants not only Sansa but also to control (or even sit) the Iron Throne going through a Targaryen would be the best way to try to do it.

[Colonel Green]

On 4/21/2017 at 0:29 PM, Lynesse said:

How would Lady Anya know that Alayne is gently bred and especially what horrors she has suffered? The only "horror" in "Alayne's" life Lady Anya would know about would be watching Lysa being pushed out the Moon Door.

You answered your own question there, as to what horrors she's referring to.  Waynwood wouldn't make that comment if it was giving away anything.

On 4/21/2017 at 0:32 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The real issue here is that if Robert dies and Harry becomes heir, LF looses all power in the Vale.  That 1 fact makes me not understand what the hell LF's plan is. 

I've never understood why so many people get hung up on this point.  Littlefinger has accomplished most of what he's done via influencing other people, not by directly wielding his own power, and he himself notes to Sansa that as Lord Protector his power is quite limited anyway, so stuff like going to war is beyond him anyway.  Trading in the Lord Protectorship for a more charismatic, conventional nobleman serving as a pawn is entirely plausible as a necessary part of his plan.

On 4/21/2017 at 7:10 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes but revealing her stops the wedding. Sansa can't get married because she's still legally married to Tyrion.

The wedding isn't going to happen until Sansa can marry, as Littlefinger said.

On 4/21/2017 at 7:19 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Sansa is married and a fugitive. The Iron Throne, the seat of power in Westeros is held by the Lannisters who want Sansa and Tyrion for the death of the King. Would the Vale lords defy the King/Throne?

...

It doesn’t make sense. What's LF up to? If the Lannister's lose the Throne/Crown LF has no clout. Revealing Sansa to the Vale lords would cause a dilemma. They would have to go against the Throne or deliver Sansa to the Crown.

The Vale has lots of Stark loyalists in it, as we've seen.  And the Lannister regime is going down the tubes, which is also part of Littlefinger's plan.

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

How is she going to convince people of her innocence against the crimes she is charged with?

The only people who care about that are people who support the Lannisters.  For people who hate the Lannisters, killing Joffrey would be a good thing.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

<snip

The wedding isn't going to happen until Sansa can marry, as Littlefinger said.

<snip

To be able to marry she has to come out of hiding and request her annulment. There would be no point in his mentioning bringing her out at the wedding as Sansa if everybody will already know she's Sansa at that point.

If LF said anything like what you mention, he would have been referring to the legal wedding to Harry, which of course will not happen until Sansa is free to get married to him.

 

[Colonel Green]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

To be able to marry she has to come out of hiding and request her annulment.

Again, Littlefinger went through this:

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that."

Littlefinger has never said anything about annulment.

[aryagonnakill#2]

10 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

You answered your own question there, as to what horrors she's referring to.  Waynwood wouldn't make that comment if it was giving away anything.

I've never understood why so many people get hung up on this point.  Littlefinger has accomplished most of what he's done via influencing other people, not by directly wielding his own power, and he himself notes to Sansa that as Lord Protector his power is quite limited anyway, so stuff like going to war is beyond him anyway.  Trading in the Lord Protectorship for a more charismatic, conventional nobleman serving as a pawn is entirely plausible as a necessary part of his plan.

The wedding isn't going to happen until Sansa can marry, as Littlefinger said.

The Vale has lots of Stark loyalists in it, as we've seen.  And the Lannister regime is going down the tubes, which is also part of Littlefinger's plan.

The only people who care about that are people who support the Lannisters.  For people who hate the Lannisters, killing Joffrey would be a good thing.

 

While LF is not the Lord and his powers are somewhat limited, he is none the less the most powerful man in the Vale.  Were Harold to become heir not only would LF loose that power but in all likelihood as @Lord Varys pointed out as he must technically still be considered a minor, Bronze Yhon would step into LF's current role.  If LF suggests something to a Lord he has acquired influence over, but Bronze Yhon, or Harry himself orders a Vale lord to do something different, they are not going to listen to LF's suggestion, they are going to listen to their lord. 

LF would be reduced to hoping Harry can be influenced by Sansa, and hoping Sansa can be influenced by him.

Spoiler

I think the sample chapter gives us a good example.  The Gulltown merchants/Graftons want to sell their grain but LF orders them to hold it.  Bronze Yhon will be selling from his own ports as LF can't stop him.  LF could have suggested that prices will go higher so they should hold the grain, but if he was not LP his word would not have carried the day because everyone else wanted to sell, and so it would have come down to Harrys decision.  Maybe Sansa takes LF's side and asks Harry to go along, maybe she doesn't, or maybe he doesn't care anyway.  In the end the power is out of LF's hands.

Edit:  Just realized Nestor Royce is a better example.  LF has him completely because Royce owes him his lordship, his remaining Lord is currently tied to LF.  But the moment LF is not LP, he looses all of that.  Royce could still feel gratitude, but his lordship would be tied to Harry or Bronze Yhon not LF, so at the end of the day LF would loose his greatest ally in an instant.

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

While LF is not the Lord and his powers are somewhat limited, he is none the less the most powerful man in the Vale.  Were Harold to become heir not only would LF loose that power but in all likelihood as @Lord Varys pointed out as he must technically still be considered a minor, Bronze Yhon would step into LF's current role.

There is no reason to believe Littlefinger would have to step down as Lord Protector if Harry became the Lord of the Vale while still a minor.

Lord Petyr Baelish has been named Lord Protector by his late wife, the Lady Lysa Arryn, then the regent of the Vale. After her untimely death no new regent was named, meaning the Lord Baelish is likely to serve as Lord Protector until the Lord of the Vale - be it Lord Robert or Lord Harrold - comes of age.

And perhaps he might even be allowed to continue in that office. Men were serving as Lord Protector of the Realm while there was a grown-up monarch ruling in his or her right. Prince Daemon was Protector of the Realm under Rhaenyra and Baelor Breakspear was Protector of the Realm under his royal father, Daeron II.

Technically Littlefinger could also remain the Protector of the Vale after either Harry or Robert come of age. Somebody would have to make him step down. But who will that be? Right now Littlefinger seems to have most of the Lords of the Vale in his pocket. The Lords Declarant are his already, with Bronze Yohn being the only exception. And if the man ever learns who Alayne actually is he should join Littlefinger, too. I mean, Lord Baelish risked his life and titles to save Sansa Stark while the Lords of the Vale - some of which are actually distant Stark cousins - did literally nothing.

10 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Again, Littlefinger went through this:

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that."

Littlefinger has never said anything about annulment.

That is an important point. The plan clearly is to betroth and marry Alayne Stone to Harrold Hardyng and only reveal who she actually is after the marriage vows have been exchanged. That way it should be very hard or even impossible to challenge the legitimacy of that marriage, especially if Harrold is Lord of the Vale by then and they remain the support of the Lord of Harrenhal and the other Lords of the Vale.

The other important point is that they want to wait until Cersei is done and Sansa safely widowed. Littlefinger hopes to get confirmation that Tyrion Lannister is dead and they will only continue their plans with an actual wedding only after Cersei is done. Right now she is not yet done, so the wedding is not yet going to happen (assuming it happens at all).

In fact, I'd even think that Tommen/Myrcella and an administration in their name and not just Cersei have to be gone before they can continue with their plans. King Tommen would be honor-bound to avenge his royal brother, King Joffrey, on Sansa Stark and the Tyrells would also have a vital interest to see her dead to ensure that she is not going to spill the beans about their involvement in Joff's murder.

Regicide is no trivial offense in Westeros. Just as Tyrion should be hated in the West and the for committing patricide and regicide, the same should go for Sansa, too. Jaime is not only hated and despised by Targaryen loyalists but by pretty much every decent person in Westeros, including sworn Targaryen enemies like Ned.

That is why I think the Aegon thing is going to speed up things in the Vale. Sansa is still afraid for her life, fearing she might be ratted out to Cersei and the Lannisters. That is only going to go away after the Lannister-Tyrell regime and their puppet kings are gone. Alone the Vale cannot hope to stand against the Lannisters and the Tyrells, especially not without a pretender of their own. But declaring for Aegon and sending troops to his aid can help Sansa to come in their own again while also avenging herself on both Cersei and the Tyrells who both used her as their pawn in their various games.

In addition, by helping a Targaryen pretender to claim the Iron Throne Littlefinger could get closer to ultimate power again. The road to the Iron Throne does not go there by way of Winterfell.

[Colonel Green]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

While LF is not the Lord and his powers are somewhat limited, he is none the less the most powerful man in the Vale.  Were Harold to become heir not only would LF loose that power but in all likelihood as @Lord Varys pointed out as he must technically still be considered a minor, Bronze Yhon would step into LF's current role.

Harry is 15.  The marriage isn't happening right away; it's logical to assume it would happen after he was of legal age.

Also, the main reason Yohn Royce is anti-LF is because he thinks he's a Lannister stooge. Once Littlefinger reveals he saved Sansa, the anti-Lannister faction in the Vale, which generally regards him as an enemy, would now have every reason to think more favourably of him.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Regicide is no trivial offense in Westeros. Just as Tyrion should be hated in the West and the for committing patricide and regicide, the same should go for Sansa, too. Jaime is not only hated and despised by Targaryen loyalists but by pretty much every decent person in Westeros, including sworn Targaryen enemies like Ned.

Jaime is disliked because he was an oathbreaker (and, to many, an opportunist), while kinslaying is a universal religious taboo.  Sansa was a child hostage; totally different situation, nobody would blame her for killing Joffrey unless they actually liked Joffrey.

Quote

That is why I think the Aegon thing is going to speed up things in the Vale. Sansa is still afraid for her life, fearing she might be ratted out to Cersei and the Lannisters. That is only going to go away after the Lannister-Tyrell regime and their puppet kings are gone. Alone the Vale cannot hope to stand against the Lannisters and the Tyrells, especially not without a pretender of their own. But declaring for Aegon and sending troops to his aid can help Sansa to come in their own again while also avenging herself on both Cersei and the Tyrells who both used her as their pawn in their various games.

Littlefinger's strategy to date has been to put together his own side and watch his enemies destroy each other.  Aegon's arrival would most logically see him continue that strategy.

[Damon_Tor]

I believe that Littlefinger actually, legitimately, wants Sansa to be Queen. But I think it's because Littlefinger understands much more about the magical plots at work, and he knows Sansa's Hoare blood holds the key to Harrenhall.

Magical abilities appear to be enhanced by rule. The more people believe you have power, the more power, magical power, you actually have. Littlefinger seems to be gathering as much of the kingdoms as possible under Sansa: all together, the North, the Rivers, and the Vale are more territory than House Hoare ever commanded, so maybe it's enough to make Harrenhall do... well, whatever it is it's supposed to do.

[Colonel Green]

Just now, Damon_Tor said:

I believe that Littlefinger actually, legitimately, wants Sansa to be Queen. But I think it's because Littlefinger understands much more about the magical plots at work, and he knows Sansa's Hoare blood holds the key to Harrenhall.

Sansa doesn't have Hoare blood.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Jaime is disliked because he was an oathbreaker (and, to many, an opportunist), while kinslaying is a universal religious taboo.  Sansa was a child hostage; totally different situation, nobody would blame her for killing Joffrey unless they actually liked Joffrey.

No, Cregan Stark also fought against and intended to kill Aegon II. Yet he still avenged the man because he was a crowned and anointed king, not deserving to be the victim of a treacherous and foul poisoning.

Joff was an anointed king, too. And an innocent boy of thirteen years. The fact that he was also a cruel and spoiled brat was not exactly known throughout the kingdom. We can be reasonably sure that even a good portion of his enemies would want to avenge him rather than reward or pardon his murderer(s).

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Littlefinger's strategy to date has been to put together his own side and watch his enemies destroy each other.  Aegon's arrival would most logically see him continue that strategy.

Littlefinger doesn't have a side. He is everybody's friend and basically has no enemies. The only man he could not work with was Stannis, for obvious reasons.

[Colonel Green]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, Cregan Stark also fought against and intended to kill Aegon II. Yet he still avenged the man because he was a crowned and anointed king, not deserving to be the victim of a treacherous and foul poisoning.

Joff was an anointed king, too. And an innocent boy of thirteen years. The fact that he was also a cruel and spoiled brat was not exactly known throughout the kingdom. We can be reasonably sure that even a good portion of his enemies would want to avenge him rather than reward or pardon his murderer(s).

Cregan, likewise, was dealing with people who were sworn to serve Aegon.  Sansa was a hostage, and everybody knows that.

Quote

Littlefinger doesn't have a side. He is everybody's friend and basically has no enemies. The only man he could not work with was Stannis, for obvious reasons.

By his side I mean he has consolidated control over the Vale, which he will use to put himself at the summit of power.  It's far more beneficial to him to let Aegon and the Lannisters slug it out, and then destroy whoever wins (who will assuredly be weaker).  Aegon is also Varys' agent, so Littlefinger would not be able to obtain maximum influence with him.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Sansa doesn't have Hoare blood.

I think the poster meant Whent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Colonel Green]

Just now, Prof. Cecily said:

I think the poster meant Whent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Theories that the Starks' Whent ancestry will matter to the story always founder, for me, on the fact that the Starks' Whent ancestry is literally never mentioned in the story, even in places where it logically should be.

Minisa Whent is a name on a genealogy chart, nothing more, to all appearances.  GRRM's worldbuilding includes a ton of mothers who are like that.

[Lynesse]

The official age calculation (in the wiki) puts Harrold Hardyng's age at 18 in 300 AC:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued)#Harrold_Hardyng