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Harry & Sansa (Littlefinger is delusional)


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9 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

That's not widely known, as far as we know.

One assumes that it is known at court. The rumors about Sansa being jealous of Margaery and murdering Joffrey because he spurned her could certainly include that whole thing.

For all the Stark-Tully people knew Sansa Stark was an honored hostage at KL. I'm with you that these people do not necessarily believe she wanted to be Joff's wife but Robb still effectively disowned her when she became a Lannister by marriage. Her own allegiance and feelings in the matter are irrelevant.

And we can safely say that this should also be true for the non-Stark supporters in the Realm. The Stormlanders, Reach men, Dornishmen, Westermen, Crownlanders, and even some of the Riverlanders, Northmen, and Vale men would not see her as the innocent victim of a evil plot but as a scheming twisted woman who stands accused of regicide. Keep in mind that the Faith arrested two queens with impunity already.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For all the Stark-Tully people knew Sansa Stark was an honored hostage at KL.

Nobody thought that, from what we see.

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Her own allegiance and feelings in the matter are irrelevant.

It's very relevant to how people would see her.  She was a hostage, and everybody knew that; killing Joffrey and escaping wouldn't surprise or likely offend much of anybody who doesn't have a vested interest in Joffrey.  She wouldn't be of any political use to Littlefinger otherwise, as well.

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59 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Nobody thought that, from what we see.

Olenna and Margaery ask Sansa for her assessment of Joffrey. That basically means people don't exactly talk about the behavior of the king at his own court. Especially not to outsiders.

59 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's very relevant to how people would see her.  She was a hostage, and everybody knew that; killing Joffrey and escaping wouldn't surprise or likely offend much of anybody who doesn't have a vested interest in Joffrey.  She wouldn't be of any political use to Littlefinger otherwise, as well.

Littlefinger intends to use Sansa only after Cersei (and by extension Tommen) is done. He is very aware of the fact that she is of no political use right now, in the present political climate. For her to be of use things have to change dramatically.

Say, Aegon never came and we just had a conflict between the Lannisters, the Tyrells, and the Martells up until Dany arrived. If the Lannisters were the faction (led, say, by Daven or some of the other cousins) joining Daenerys because the Tyrells had become the power dominating the Iron Throne then Daenerys may very well have felt compelled to execute Sansa Stark as a kingslayer in exchange for the support and the allegiance of Casterly Rock. And many of the Westerosi people may support her in this. It is a heinous crime we are talking about.

Kingslayers have to die, just as the Freys and Boltons have right now. They are basically hated by everyone. Just as Sansa might be if she showed her face again under the wrong circumstances.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger intends to use Sansa only after Cersei (and by extension Tommen) is done. He is very aware of the fact that she is of no political use right now, in the present political climate. For her to be of use things have to change dramatically.

If everybody else in Westeros will view her unfavourably for supposedly killing Joffrey, why would it matter whether the Lannisters are still in power or not?

The discussion about Cersei seems to have more to do with the power of the Lannister regime itself (now in decline), not whether third parties would take the same view as them (in which case, as I said, whether the Lannisters are still around or not is meaningless).

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5 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

If everybody else in Westeros will view her unfavourably for supposedly killing Joffrey, why would it matter whether the Lannisters are still in power or not?

There is certainly a difference between Cersei/the Lannisters' view of Sansa and the view other people (will) have of her. However, that's just a gradual difference. Many of those who actually think she is a kingslayer will want to see her punished for that. And we are talking about those people, not friends of the family.

And depending when she shows her face again the Tyrells should want to silence her and Littlefinger for a bunch of other reasons, too. They know that she knows about their involvement in Joff's murder.

5 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The discussion about Cersei seems to have more to do with the power of the Lannister regime itself (now in decline), not whether third parties would take the same view as them (in which case, as I said, whether the Lannisters are still around or not is meaningless).

It is not just the Lannister regime. It is the regime of King Tommen, basically. Tommen and Myrcella (and everybody supporting them) will be honor-bound to avenge their brother. That is why Sansa should have any interesting support any faction trying to get rid of them, too, not just Cersei personally.

Sansa retaking Winterfell while Tommen sits the Iron Throne slowly growing into a man wouldn't do. That way he would come for her in ten or fifteen years (or the people ruling in his name at an earlier time).

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On 4/22/2017 at 7:42 PM, Illyrio Po'Marties said:

Excellent point, which makes you wonder why he killed Joffrey.

Killing Joffery AND framing Tyrion for it. He almost certainly does want Tyrion dead even if his plans for Sansa aren't exactly what he has stated. It almost worked but Tyrion escaped unexpectedly.

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15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No reason for the readers to expect it. But that's because we have info that Littlefinger doesn't. LF has no reason to think Tyrion will remain free for very long.

No, he does.  Tyrion escaped the Black Cells, and has at that point been MIA for months.  There's no particular reason to think Cersei's agents will find him at that point, particularly since Littlefinger would know that such a feat would most likely mean Varys helped him out.

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12 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

No, he does.  Tyrion escaped the Black Cells, and has at that point been MIA for months.  There's no particular reason to think Cersei's agents will find him at that point, particularly since Littlefinger would know that such a feat would most likely mean Varys helped him out.

Helping him escape is not the same as continuing to keep him alive. Statistically, unless Tyrion has someone helping him stay alive (and LF has no knowledge of such a thing) Tyrion's time as a free man will run out sooner rather than later. As more time goes by, more people will have heard of the bounty Cersei is offering, and more people will be in on the hunt. Tyrion was distinctive enough not to blend in even before he lost his nose. In LF's mind, Tyrion's death is something that will happen before too long.

Furthermore, it's not "Cersei's agents" looking for Tyrion. It's actually every greedy moron on two continents who wants to cash in. Cersei doesn't have any "agents" looking for her brother, she put a bounty on him and trusted that the scum of Planetos would do the work for her. Sadly for her, the scum of Planetos includes people who are dumb enough to think any dwarf's head will do.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Helping him escape is not the same as continuing to keep him alive.

Littlefinger knows Varys, and by that point it would also be known that Varys himself has flown the coop, so the safe assumption would be that Tyrion is still with Varys, not that Varys decided to help him escape and then nothing further.  Tyrion on his own has no money or resources, he couldn't have stayed hidden as long as he has on his own.

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48 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Littlefinger knows Varys, and by that point it would also be known that Varys himself has flown the coop, so the safe assumption would be that Tyrion is still with Varys, not that Varys decided to help him escape and then nothing further.  Tyrion on his own has no money or resources, he couldn't have stayed hidden as long as he has on his own.

I'd say that is a fair assumption to make. 

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On 4/26/2017 at 2:28 AM, Colonel Green said:

That's not widely known, as far as we know.

I'm not so sure, but please correct me if I'm wrong. 

From AFFC, Alayne II

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And yet the thought of leaving frightened her almost as much as it frightened Robert. She only hid it better. Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear. "All men live with fear," he said. Alayne was not certain she believed that. Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish. He only said that to make me brave. She would need to be brave down below, where the chance of being unmasked was so much greater. Petyr's friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. It will mean my head if I am found, she reminded herself as she descended a flight of icy stone steps. I must be Alayne all the time, inside and out.

Whether or not it's widely known, Sansa's fear of being unmasked is quite real, or so it seems to me.

On 4/26/2017 at 11:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

One assumes that it is known at court. The rumors about Sansa being jealous of Margaery and murdering Joffrey because he spurned her could certainly include that whole thing.

For all the Stark-Tully people knew Sansa Stark was an honored hostage at KL. I'm with you that these people do not necessarily believe she wanted to be Joff's wife but Robb still effectively disowned her when she became a Lannister by marriage. Her own allegiance and feelings in the matter are irrelevant.

 

Of course. Poor Sansa, her love of chivalrous stories and songs has almost foreshadowed her being  trapped  in what is a traditional subject of tales and songs- a spurned woman murdering her faithless lover.

And that reminds me of Baelish's comment to her in AGOT Sansa II

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Lord Baelish stroked his little pointed beard and said, "Nothing? Tell me, child, why would you have sent Ser Loras?"

Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king's councillor smiled. "Well, those are not the reasons I'd have given, but …" He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of a cheekbone. "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow."

 

On 4/27/2017 at 2:05 AM, Lord Varys said:

And depending when she shows her face again the Tyrells should want to silence her and Littlefinger for a bunch of other reasons, too. They know that she knows about their involvement in Joff's murder.

Good point, one that hadn't occurred to me. It will fascinating to see how GRRM plays out this story.

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I only properly read the OP so I apologise if it had been mentioned in the comments but I don'f find the Harry - Alyane match so far-fetched 

Harry may fling his "heir of the Vale" title as much as he wants but essentially he's a nobody (one step above a hedge knight) as long as Sweet Robin lives and much more so once the kid marries and procreates. I kinda got a feeling that there is an unspoken agreement between LF and Lady Waynwood (similar to his former collaboration with Olenna) where both party understand that the match is only viable if Harrold inherits the lordship, i.e. LF will make sure that that's indeed the case. I don't think Lady Waynwood is necessarily a horrible person (or would approve of child murder). She probably convinced herself that the boy will die from his sickness anyways, even if it means that LF's neglect (or extra help) may speed up the process.

Harry is essentially marrying LF's bastard in exchange for the Vale of Arryn. Not too bad of a deal from his and Lady Waynwood perspective. Obviously, that's not the end of LF's ambitions but that's another story. 

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2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I'm not so sure, but please correct me if I'm wrong. 

From AFFC, Alayne II

Whether or not it's widely known, Sansa's fear of being unmasked is quite real, or so it seems to me.

Those are the passages I'm referring to. Sansa's fear is quite real, and I'm pretty sure she is not eager to be unmasked and be made Lady of the Vale and declared Lady of Winterfell while there is a still a strong chance that her enemies might catch up with her. But if she gets instead an opportunity to strike back at them she is likely to take it.

The Vale's power should get stronger and stronger while the other regions bleed each other but the Vale alone will be never enough (and the Riverlands and North won't be any help to take the Iron Throne/destroy the Lannisters, not in their present state and not in winter). In addition, it is quite clear that the Lords of the Vale are much more pragmatic than principled. They did not defy Lysa during the War of the Five Kings, they stayed at home and let Robb and Catelyn die. The fact that many of those noble Vale houses are impoverished (Corbray, Waynwood) should make it very tempting for some of those people to sell Sansa to Cersei/the Lannisters, regardless whether they have a decent chance to beat them in battle or not. The Lannisters have gold, and Cersei/King Tommen are likely to pay more than a fortune for Sansa Stark's head.

Sansa is very aware of all that.

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Good point, one that hadn't occurred to me. It will fascinating to see how GRRM plays out this story.

It is just another angle as to why teaming up with Aegon should look as a very promising opportunity for Sansa and Littlefinger both. They can use him to get rid of both Cersei and the Tyrells, covering their own tracks for good.

I'm actually hoping Joff's murder is going to be back on the table soon. Varys' next move after killing Pycelle and Kevan should be to hand Cersei very good and real evidence that the Tyrells actually were the ones who killed Joffrey. She does not think that as of yet, but if she was ever helped to reach that conclusion she will see red. That kind of thing is what's likely going to drive her off the edge to make her a powerful force of destruction at Euron's side. If she ever realizes that Olenna poisoned her beloved son so that she could marry her granddaughter to her younger son to steal him away from her, too, she is going to want to see the Reach burn.

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Interesting about Littlefinger only caring about the betrothal, and that the actual marriage will wait until Cersei is deposed and Tyrion is dead. Since we know this will never happen (Tyrion dying before the end game), we can then assume that Sansa will not actually become Harry's wife between now and the Long Night.

Meaning that whatever role she will play, will have to be as his betrothed, rather than as the Lady of the Vale. This is interesting, because it makes it more difficult to see how she will have major influence over the power of the Vale, to an extent that she will be a major player in the Game during the remainder of the series.

I don't see the Aegon arrangement happening, because the very fact that Sansa has reduced influence in the Vale makes her a lesser prospect for Aegon to marry. It seems to me that the likely course left to her is to completely bring Harry under her spell to the extent that he is willing to go to war for her.

Other than that, she has very little going for her.

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

...

The Vale's power should get stronger and stronger while the other regions bleed each other but the Vale alone will be never enough (and the Riverlands and North won't be any help to take the Iron Throne/destroy the Lannisters, not in their present state and not in winter). In addition, it is quite clear that the Lords of the Vale are much more pragmatic than principled. They did not defy Lysa during the War of the Five Kings, they stayed at home and let Robb and Catelyn die. The fact that many of those noble Vale houses are impoverished (Corbray, Waynwood) should make it very tempting for some of those people to sell Sansa to Cersei/the Lannisters, regardless whether they have a decent chance to beat them in battle or not. The Lannisters have gold, and Cersei/King Tommen are likely to pay more than a fortune for Sansa Stark's head.

Sansa is very aware of all that.

It is just another angle as to why teaming up with Aegon should look as a very promising opportunity for Sansa and Littlefinger both. They can use him to get rid of both Cersei and the Tyrells, covering their own tracks for good.

I'm actually hoping Joff's murder is going to be back on the table soon. Varys' next move after killing Pycelle and Kevan should be to hand Cersei very good and real evidence that the Tyrells actually were the ones who killed Joffrey. She does not think that as of yet, but if she was ever helped to reach that conclusion she will see red. That kind of thing is what's likely going to drive her off the edge to make her a powerful force of destruction at Euron's side. If she ever realizes that Olenna poisoned her beloved son so that she could marry her granddaughter to her younger son to steal him away from her, too, she is going to want to see the Reach burn.

Gosh. That sounds just like Euron's cuppa. 

I don't see good things happening in Oldtown for very much longer.

 

I've just read the Alayne chapter from TWOW.

Spoiler

She's happily focused on her life as Petyr's daughter, with a moment's nostalgia for Winterfell but otherwise hugely enjoying her role as hostess and organiser of a tourney. Do we remember Ned's views on tourneys? She's delighted to dance the night away with glamourous knights and sets her cap (following her clever father's recommendations to the letter) at HtH. I think any signs of maturity or consciousness shall have to wait for farther along in the saga. I can't help wondering if Sansa is supposed to be a type of Scarlett O'Hara.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Interesting about Littlefinger only caring about the betrothal, and that the actual marriage will wait until Cersei is deposed and Tyrion is dead. Since we know this will never happen (Tyrion dying before the end game), we can then assume that Sansa will not actually become Harry's wife between now and the Long Night.

Meaning that whatever role she will play, will have to be as his betrothed, rather than as the Lady of the Vale. This is interesting, because it makes it more difficult to see how she will have major influence over the power of the Vale, to an extent that she will be a major player in the Game during the remainder of the series.

I don't see the Aegon arrangement happening, because the very fact that Sansa has reduced influence in the Vale makes her a lesser prospect for Aegon to marry. It seems to me that the likely course left to her is to completely bring Harry under her spell to the extent that he is willing to go to war for her.

Other than that, she has very little going for her.

 

 

Well, there is that famous teaching of Cersei about a woman's weapons, and from what I read in the chapter Alayne in TWOW

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Spoiler

she actually has a great deal going for her. So much can happen during a military campaign, don't you agree? I suspect Aegon might find Sansa a very appealing widow.

 

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34 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Interesting about Littlefinger only caring about the betrothal, and that the actual marriage will wait until Cersei is deposed and Tyrion is dead. Since we know this will never happen (Tyrion dying before the end game), we can then assume that Sansa will not actually become Harry's wife between now and the Long Night.

Certainly not. That is the plan but plans can go awry.

And while it is better and wiser to wait until they have confirmation of Tyrion's death it is not, in the end, really necessary, because the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion is not worth all that much. Sansa was forced into it, weakening the whole thing, and the marriage was not consummated, which doesn't make it a marriage at all.

Who is going to complain if she takes a new husband? If it is Harry, Aegon, Littlefinger, or a another man of high birth with a lot of power people won't complain.

Many a wife of a sailor or swordsman who never came home from a journey or battle would remarry eventually, never mind the fact that she could not be completely sure that her husband was, in fact, dead.

Events will force their hand. For instance, if Sansa's true identity was publicly revealed soon and word of that reached KL they would most likely rush things, have Sansa marry Harry, and even declare war on King Tommen to ensure they end up on top.

If Lord Robert has a seizure that kills him tomorrow they would also have to rush things because the Lord Harrold of the Vale might either decide to choose himself some proper wife of noble birth or insist that he marry Sansa Stark now and not only next spring. There are many other such scenarios imaginable. Stuff is going to happen in the Vale.

The idea that Sansa is not going to marry Harry (or anyone else, really) because that is 'the plan' is just nonsense. Ned, Robb, Tyrion, Tywin, etc. also had a lot of plans in those stories that led nowhere.

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Meaning that whatever role she will play, will have to be as his betrothed, rather than as the Lady of the Vale.

The idea that she would do anything as Lady of the Vale was never on the table, actually. The plan is that she wins Harry's love and his trust, becoming his betrothed. But the time for Robert's death is not set. The plan could very well be to only kill him at the end of winter, shortly before they intended to take the North in Sansa's name.

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This is interesting, because it makes it more difficult to see how she will have major influence over the power of the Vale, to an extent that she will be a major player in the Game during the remainder of the series.

There is also no reason to believe Sansa will have to control the Vale to become a major player. She could very well become a player elsewhere (say, at court). But nobody ever said she will become a powerful player in her own right. She a woman and a minor, making it essentially for her to actually exert any direct power in her own right. She will have soft power, ruling other people by whatever hold she has over the men in charge, not by setting herself up as a ruler in her own right. Her entire arc does not go in that direction. She may be as beautiful as Daenerys but she does not have her story. She didn't hook up with sellswords nor did she conquer and raid cities. She learned how to watch (and manipulate) people at court. That is a completely different arena. She may become a powerful player there but this is not going to have all that much impact on the battlefield.

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I don't see the Aegon arrangement happening, because the very fact that Sansa has reduced influence in the Vale makes her a lesser prospect for Aegon to marry.

That is nonsense, actually. She still is the last Stark known to be alive, the heir of Winterfell. If Olenna can want her for Willas, Aegon certainly can want him for herself.

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It seems to me that the likely course left to her is to completely bring Harry under her spell to the extent that he is willing to go to war for her.

Other than that, she has very little going for her.

Harry is not yet the Lord of the Vale. Littlefinger can do that for her, too, as Lord Protector. She doesn't need anyone else for that.

6 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Gosh. That sounds just like Euron's cuppa. 

I don't see good things happening at Oldtown for very mush longer.

I don't think Euron cares all that much about Oldtown. He could eventually try to take that city but it might be a Pyrrhic victory at least insofar as his military strengths is concerned. He could lose a lot of men trying to take it and could never hope to hold it. He wants the Iron Throne. The road to KL does not lead through Oldtown.

What he most likely will take is the Arbor. That should be his new base of operations. Once the Redwyne fleet is destroyed nobody will trouble him there for quite some time. From there he might turn against Dorne (Sunspear and the Water Gardens would be pretty much defenseless) and then eventually against KL. He wants the Iron Throne.

Aegon could even help Sansa to become a widow, by the way. Tyrion was with him, for a time, remember? And Haldon has learned from the brothel owner that Tyrion was abducted by some brute. Now, the best way to explain this is that another dwarf was captured and subsequently killed by some of the men searching for Tyrion. Which would mean the dwarf can be declared dead by the new king himself. 

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Certainly not. That is the plan but plans can go awry.

And while it is better and wiser to wait until they have confirmation of Tyrion's death it is not, in the end, really necessary, because the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion is not worth all that much. Sansa was forced into it, weakening the whole thing, and the marriage was not consummated, which doesn't make it a marriage at all.

Who is going to complain if she takes a new husband? If it is Harry, Aegon, Littlefinger, or a another man of high birth with a lot of power people won't complain.

Many a wife of a sailor or swordsman who never came home from a journey or battle would remarry eventually, never mind the fact that she could not be completely sure that her husband was, in fact, dead.

Events will force their hand. For instance, if Sansa's true identity was publicly revealed soon and word of that reached KL they would most likely rush things, have Sansa marry Harry, and even declare war on King Tommen to ensure they end up on top.

If Lord Robert has a seizure that kills him tomorrow they would also have to rush things because the Lord Harrold of the Vale might either decide to choose himself some proper wife of noble birth or insist that he marry Sansa Stark now and not only next spring. There are many other such scenarios imaginable. Stuff is going to happen in the Vale.

The idea that Sansa is not going to marry Harry (or anyone else, really) because that is 'the plan' is just nonsense. Ned, Robb, Tyrion, Tywin, etc. also had a lot of plans in those stories that led nowhere.

The idea that she would do anything as Lady of the Vale was never on the table, actually. The plan is that she wins Harry's love and his trust, becoming his betrothed. But the time for Robert's death is not set. The plan could very well be to only kill him at the end of winter, shortly before they intended to take the North in Sansa's name.

There is also no reason to believe Sansa will have to control the Vale to become a major player. She could very well become a player elsewhere (say, at court). But nobody ever said she will become a powerful player in her own right. She a woman and a minor, making it essentially for her to actually exert any direct power in her own right. She will have soft power, ruling other people by whatever hold she has over the men in charge, not by setting herself up as a ruler in her own right. Her entire arc does not go in that direction. She may be as beautiful as Daenerys but she does not have her story. She didn't hook up with sellswords nor did she conquer and raid cities. She learned how to watch (and manipulate) people at court. That is a completely different arena. She may become a powerful player there but this is not going to have all that much impact on the battlefield.

That is nonsense, actually. She still is the last Stark known to be alive, the heir of Winterfell. If Olenna can want her for Willas, Aegon certainly can want him for herself.

Harry is not yet the Lord of the Vale. Littlefinger can do that for her, too, as Lord Protector. She doesn't need anyone else for that.

I don't think Euron cares all that much about Oldtown. He could eventually try to take that city but it might be a Pyrrhic victory at least insofar as his military strengths is concerned. He could lose a lot of men trying to take it and could never hope to hold it. He wants the Iron Throne. The road to KL does not lead through Oldtown.

What he most likely will take is the Arbor. That should be his new base of operations. Once the Redwyne fleet is destroyed nobody will trouble him there for quite some time. From there he might turn against Dorne (Sunspear and the Water Gardens would be pretty much defenseless) and then eventually against KL. He wants the Iron Throne.

Aegon could even help Sansa to become a widow, by the way. Tyrion was with him, for a time, remember? And Haldon has learned from the brothel owner that Tyrion was abducted by some brute. Now, the best way to explain this is that another dwarf was captured and subsequently killed by some of the men searching for Tyrion. Which would mean the dwarf can be declared dead by the new king himself. 

You like to throw in straw men , don't you. Who said anything about Sansa exerting power on the battlefield? By the very nature of her arc, her power will be through lords, generals, husbands, suitors and the like. She is cast as Littlefinger's protégé remember. Not as Nymeria come again.

So I don't even know who you are arguing against in the above. Certainly not me, because I never claimed that Sansa will be a Battle Queen of some sorts.

As for the Aegon thing. Again, you seem to argue for different sides of an issue depending on what your goal is. What value is Sansa as Lady of Winterfell to Aegon? You yourself repeatedly argue how weakened the North is supposed to be, how they can play no role in the fight for the Iron Throne in the South anymore, how it is a remote place of little worth to Southron lords.

Why on earth would Aegon then marry Sansa for her claim to Winterfell, if he is in need of swords to win the Throne NOW? And as the scenario repeatedly shows us, Sansa has no power over the swords of the Vale, other than through Harry, so a marriage to her cannot bring Aegon that either.

Arriane will be his bride. Bringing him Dorne, with spears already waiting to join him in the Boneway and the Princes Pass. Sansa brings him nothing of immediate value.

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9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You like to throw in straw men , don't you. Who said anything about Sansa exerting power on the battlefield? By the very nature of her arc, her power will be through lords, generals, husbands, suitors and the like. She is cast as Littlefinger's protégé remember. Not as Nymeria come again.

That is not what I meant, either. You were talking about having assumed Sansa would be the Lady of Vale, which indicates direct legal control over troops and lords, and nobody ever had that plan. Such people can make a difference on the battlefield. Daenerys will, too.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the Aegon thing. Again, you seem to argue for different sides of an issue depending on what your goal is. What value is Sansa as Lady of Winterfell to Aegon? You yourself repeatedly argue how weakened the North is supposed to be, how they can play no role in the fight for the Iron Throne in the South anymore, how it is a remote place of little worth to Southron lords.

She is a fine prize, a woman of beauty and impeccable birth which will allow him to install his Targaryen sons by her as the new lords of Winterfell, creating lordly cadet branches of the royal family to cement his rule.

In addition, with her most likely would come the Vale men under Littlefinger, helping to install him as king. He doesn't need the Northmen.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Why on earth would Aegon then marry Sansa for her claim to Winterfell, if he is in need of swords to win the Throne NOW? And as the scenario repeatedly shows us, Sansa has no power over the swords of the Vale, other than through Harry, so a marriage to her cannot bring Aegon that either.

Littlefinger is the Lord Protector of the Vale, and the Lords of the Vale won't need a lot of persuasion to turn against the Lannisters. Sansa revealing her identity and playing the 'I'm a poor maiden in peril' card could easily enough more than enough.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Arriane will be his bride. Bringing him Dorne, with spears already waiting to join him in the Boneway and the Princes Pass. Sansa brings him nothing of immediate value.

Again - Vale men? You really seem to fail to understand the concept of soft power and popular outrage. People can be played. You don't have to be the unquestioned ruler of the Vale to get them to declare for a Targaryen pretender. There might be still some Targaryen loyalists left in the Vale just as there are people in White Harbor who consider the Targaryens their rightful rulers.

I'm not saying Sansa will actually marry Aegon. He can certainly reject her. But, you know, Sansa and Littlefinger don't know that Arianne is on her way to Storm's End right now. And just as Lord Robert and Harry are not immortal, Arianne is neither. Littlefinger and Sansa could come to their help and repeat the Tyrell move. Queen Arianne could be poisoned as replaced just as easy as King Joffrey was.

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46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Her entire arc does not go in that direction. She may be as beautiful as Daenerys but she does not have her story. She didn't hook up with sellswords nor did she conquer and raid cities.

Very true!

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Euron cares all that much about Oldtown. He could eventually try to take that city but it might be a Pyrrhic victory at least insofar as his military strengths is concerned. He could lose a lot of men trying to take it and could never hope to hold it. He wants the Iron Throne. The road to KL does not lead through Oldtown.

What he most likely will take is the Arbor. That should be his new base of operations. Once the Redwyne fleet is destroyed nobody will trouble him there for quite some time. From there he might turn against Dorne (Sunspear and the Water Gardens would be pretty much defenseless) and then eventually against KL. He wants the Iron Throne.

Aegon could even help Sansa to become a widow, by the way. Tyrion was with him, for a time, remember? And Haldon has learned from the brothel owner that Tyrion was abducted by some brute. Now, the best way to explain this is that another dwarf was captured and subsequently killed by some of the men searching for Tyrion. Which would mean the dwarf can be declared dead by the new king himself. 

Thanks for the gentle reminder to review the maps on my way to work this afternoon. 

I mention  Oldtown because of the Citadel, rather than a strategic understanding of how to take KL.

That would be interesting, Aegon helping Sansa to become a widow.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But, you know, Sansa and Littlefinger don't know that Arianne is on her way to Storm's End right now. And just as Lord Robert and Harry are not immortal, Arianne is neither. Littlefinger and Sansa could come to their help and repeat the Tyrell move. Queen Arianne could be poisoned as replaced just as easy as King Joffrey was.

Oh, my! Your speculations will enliven my afternoon considerably.

But...dragons?

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