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Bolton's Burnt Book: Mysterious Reading


hiemal

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We will never know what was in that book -- because GRRM did not specify; and I am quite sure he is never going to tell us!  If he ever peruses this site, he must find our insatiable desire, and the absurd lengths we sometimes go to, to 'crack the mystery' hilarious.  Perhaps the burnt book is GRRM's perverse 'meta-'commentary on how we -- he calls us 'the pit' in TWOW, the clamoring audience that is both inherently unsatisfiable and never to be satisfied externally (by him, naturally) -- will never be provided with the definitive answers which we seek, let alone the promised book(s) which may never be written.

There also seems to be a theme about dangerous books and the dangers in an 'original sin' sense attending the acquisition of knowledge, e.g. whatever book 'Pate' might be seeking in the Citadel, for which someone was murdered and his identity stolen.  So I can certainly get on board with the idea that the book Roose burned represented a significant danger to him for some reason.  Destroying books, particularly by burning, in an attempt to suppress the knowledge within is nothing new-- knowledge is power; and destroying knowledge is power as well.

For some reason -- I supposed it's the 'lost book' theme, but also the postmodernist one I've been describing in which ultimate meaning is withheld -- I'm getting a burnt 'Library of Alexandria', 'Name of the Rose' vibe.  The latter is Umberto Eco's book about a number of people who die in a cloister after having read a certain literally and figuratively poisoned book.  A fitting description of the unsatisfying conclusion:

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Eco, being a semiotician, is hailed by semiotics students who like to use his novel to explain their discipline. The techniques of telling stories within stories, partial fictionalization, and purposeful linguistic ambiguity are all apparent. The solution to the central murder mystery hinges on the contents of Aristotle's book on Comedy, of which no copy survives; Eco nevertheless plausibly describes it and has his characters react to it appropriately in their medieval setting – which, though realistically described, is partly based on Eco's scholarly guesses and imagination. It is virtually impossible to untangle fact / history from fiction / conjecture in the novel. Through the motive of this lost and possibly suppressed book which might have aestheticized the farcical, the unheroic and the skeptical, Eco also makes an ironically slanted plea for tolerance and against dogmatic or self-sufficient metaphysical truths – an angle which reaches the surface in the final chapters.

Umberto Eco is a significant postmodernist theorist and The Name of the Rose is a postmodern novel. The quote in the novel, "books always speak of other books, and every story tells a story that has already been told," refers to a postmodern idea that all texts perpetually refer to other texts, rather than external reality. In true postmodern style, the novel ends with uncertainty: "very little is discovered and the detective is defeated" (postscript). William of Baskerville solves the mystery in part by mistake; he thought there was a pattern but it in fact, numerous "patterns" were involved and combined with haphazard mistakes by the killers. William concludes in fatigue that there "was no pattern". Thus Eco turns the modernist quest for finality, certainty and meaning on its head, leaving the overall plot partly the result of accident and arguably without meaning. Even the novel's title alludes to the possibility of many meanings or of nebulous meaning; Eco saying in the Postscript he chose the title "because the rose is a symbolic figure so rich in meanings that by now it hardly has any meaning left".

From:  http://www.artandpopularculture.com/The_Name_of_the_Rose

 

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I prefer the idea that Roose's creepiness is a hint that the Bolton's do remember unlike so many other families in this series who've forgotten something apparently quite important.

That's a really interesting idea.  Earlier I pointed out that books are like weirwoods, libraries like the weirnet...and ominously, 'the trees remember...'; so extinguishing a book or tree is tantamount to extinguishing memory, in an attempt to ward off some vengeful retribution.  It ties into the 'terrible knowledge,' many aspects of which Bran has suppressed.  Remembering is dangerous.  

However, there's also a suggestion that no knowledge can ever be truly extinguished, no memory truly repressed, no unpaid debt truly erased merely by burning the promissory notes.  To my mind, the most important detail in that book-burning scene is the release of the spirits from the book busily memorizing and therefore preserving the information it contained:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them. 

'The ghost reading the pages' also brings to mind the art of flame reading -- that somewhere someone could be accessing the knowledge, despite Roose's efforts to skew the course of history.  As long as there are practitioners well versed in divination, even spanning different time dimensions (e.g. via greenseeing), no knowledge is safe from acquisition.

14 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think that the burning of the book, and the book that was burned are probably both significant. George RR has a way of throwing out seemingly trivial things that end up figuring big a book or so down the line.

Unfortunately, I don't share your optimism that GRRM will ensure that 'all will be revealed', certainly not to our satisfaction!  Please see my postmodernist spin on it, above, according to which we readers are ultimately cast as 'the defeated detectives.'

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11 minutes ago, zandru said:

Apologies for quoting myself, but it occurs to me that, from what we've seen, the Starks concentrate their family histories on the great things the Starks have done, and that the Starks were once the Kings of the North. I'll bet that the Boltons concentrate on the wrongs done to them by the Starks and the times the Boltons defeated them. Remember, per the World of Ice&Fire, the Boltons dressed in Starkskin robes...

I agree very much.

Roose talks about how the wolves won't let him sleep, and that can be interpreted as not letting him rest or be himself. The Starks put a stop to the Boltons more gruesome practices like wearing human skin. When he comes back from the hunt, he makes gloves out of the wolf cubs, and two wolf cubs, Bran and Rickon, just died at Winterfell. 

Along the lines of the Starkskin cloaks, after the wolf hunt, Roose makes Bran/Rickon wolfskin gloves, Arya wears the Bolton sigil and thinks a lot about the FM who also wear skins.

I do think they've been keeping a grudge for a very, very long time, and they're playing a deeper game than other characters.

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34 minutes ago, hiemal said:

And if their ties are with the Others, as Lady Blizzardborn suggested, that would go a long way to contextualizing Roose's often mentioned sang froid.

Ties to the Others would also explain his disinterest in literal heirs, provided the Boltons aren't special the way that the Crasters are special. An apocalypse where everyone becomes undead make heirs pointless. An association with wights through Others would also explain the undead/Vampire thing.

I really hope there's no literal Vampires. I'll never get the image of a naked sparkly Roose out of my head.

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33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

For some reason -- I supposed it's the 'lost book' theme, but also the postmodernist one I've been describing in which ultimate meaning is withheld -- I'm getting a burnt 'Library of Alexandria', 'Name of the Rose' vibe.  The latter is Umberto Eco's book about a number of people who die in a cloister after having read a certain literally and figuratively poisoned book.  A fitting description of the unsatisfying conclusion:

 

 

Love that book and I think it ties in with the "King in Yellow" vibe I mentioned in an earlier reply in the thread. The inclusion of a city named "Carcosa" where, iirc the Yellow Emperors held court in exile, argues strongly that this theme was on his mind, I think.

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Thinking about how the FM and Boltons may be connected.

The Others themselves might actually be water, though they're more strongly connected to the ice form. To be liquid water, you need to add heat, so without fire added (water’s opposite), it can only be ice.

The FM oppose fire and water is the most changeable element. Its shape changes to that of its container, and can take the forms of ice, liquid, or vapor. So what the FM do might be a form of water magic as they put on a “container” in the form of a face and become no one, or let the container shape them. Nymeria’s name fits very well, if Arya is in fact mastering a water magic from the the Rhoyne. Also, a lot of Syrio’s instruction to Arya can be summarized as “be like water”, and in fact, she was learning water dancing. If the Boltons are in fact connected to the Others, and what they do sounds similar to what the FM do, then the Boltons performing a similar water magic and being connected to the Others makes sense.

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12 hours ago, hiemal said:

His phlegmatic attitude towards the murder of both his once and future trueborn children show a ruthless pragmatism that doesn't line up for me.

Me neither.

It seems to me to be all for show. Remember

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she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton’s bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. “A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so.” He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. “A fate he no doubt earned,” Bolton had written. “Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay’s nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived.”

(ACoK, Ch.45 Catelyn VI)

We know how that turned out - Roose co-ordinated his arriving at Harrenhal with Tywin's leaving, and was more fiercely protective of his bastard than Ned ever had been of Jon. The lives that would be given turned out to be those of all Catelyn's true-born sons.

It is not certain how much of this message is actual lies: Harrenhal was a strong castle - even though it has a history of (even a curse of) being easily and unexpectedly defeated. (It's also a Strong castle,or at least, it was between the times it was held by House Towers and House Lothson).

Tywin garrisoned it well. Too well, when we consider that he was also supposedly battling Roose's forces at the Ruby Ford. And his leaving Harrenhal with only 100 of Lorch's men and 100 Brave companions, who he knew did not get on with Lorch's men, and who promptly turned up with 100 Northerners and took the castle from Lorch's men ... it is almost as if Tywin had intended Roose to take over.

And Roose seems very confident of the accuracy of his information on Tywin's movements

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"As to Lord Tywin, he remains at King’s Landing, and there he will stay till the new year, when his grandson takes for bride a daughter of Highgarden.”
“Winterfell,” said Brienne. “You mean Winterfell. King Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark.”
“No longer. The Battle of the Blackwater changed all. The rose and the lion joined there, to shatter Stannis Baratheon’s host and burn his fleet to ashes.”

(ACoK, Ch.31 Jaime IV)

Tywin likewise seems to be aware that the Red Fork will be well guarded, and not at all bothered by the risk that he will be wedged between Edmure's forces and Roose's when he left Harrenhal. It is almost as if he knew that Roose would also prefer to keep Harrenhal well garrisoned, rather than go out and fight the main enemy of the North when he directly threatens Riverrun, whence the King in the North must return after razing the Westerlands. Almost like he knows Roose has his back.

Roose's Frey goodbrothers clearly don't feel as sure about what Tywin will do as Roose does.

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“Lord Tywin is many leagues from here,” Bolton said calmly. “He has many matters yet to settle at King’s Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time.”
Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. “You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought that Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him.”
The pale man in the bed smiled faintly as the leeches nursed of his blood. “I am not a man to be undone, ser.”
“Even if Riverrun marshals all its strength and the Young Wolf wins back from the west, how can we hope to match the numbers Lord Tywin can send against us? When he comes, he will come with far more power than he commanded on the Green Fork. Highgarden has joined itself to Joffrey’s cause, I remind you!”
“I had not forgotten.”

(ACoK, Ch.64 Arya X)

We catch Roose in one deliberate, treasonous act of deception in the above chapter:

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“I will send a letter of my own,” he told the onetime maester.
“To the Lady Walda?”
“To Ser Helman Tallhart.”
A rider from Ser Helman had come two days past. Tallhart men had taken the castle of the Darrys, accepting the surrender of its Lannister garrison after a brief siege.
“Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he is to join forces with Robett Glover and strike east toward Duskendale.

(ACoK, Ch.64 Arya X)

The King in the North knew nothing of this command. Sansa has been married to Tyrion and the Red Wedding Plot is afoot (well, Lame Lothar has left the Twins for Riverrun, not actually on foot) before he hears of it:

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Robb was doing all he could, yet still the blows kept falling, one after the other, relentless. When they brought him word of the battle at Duskendale, where Lord Randyll Tarly had shattered Robett Glover and Ser Helman Tallhart, he might have been expected to rage. Instead he’d stared in dumb disbelief and said, “Duskendale, on the narrow sea? Why would they go to Duskendale?” He’d shook his head, bewildered. “A third of my foot, lost for Duskendale?”

(ASoS, Ch.35 Catelyn IV)

But the Hand of King Joffrey had been following this development with interest while Tyrion was still single and recovering from his injuries in the Battle of the Blackwater

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Lord Tywin Lannister was seated beneath the window, writing by the glow of an oil lamp. He raised his eyes at the sound of the latch. “Tyrion.” Calmly, he laid his quill aside..."Stannis Baratheon’s sun set on the Blackwater. As for Stark, the boy is still in the west, but a large force of northmen under Helman Tallhart and Robett Glover are descending toward Duskendale. I’ve sent Lord Tarly to meet them, while Ser Gregor drives up the kingsroad to cut off their retreat. Tallhart and Glover will be caught between them, with a third of Stark’s strength.”
“Duskendale?” There was nothing at Duskendale worth such a risk. Had the Young Wolf finally blundered?
“It’s nothing you need trouble yourself with. Your face is pale as death, and there’s blood seeping through your dressings. Say what you want and take yourself back to bed.”

(ASoS, Ch.04 Tyrion I)

Tyrion's wedding might even have been a deliberate stratagem Tywin's, to make Tyrion look a liar in the eyes of Lady Stark (as well as his avowed one of preventing the Tyrells gaining a Stark interest by keeping Sansa permanently in the Lannister fold.) In any case, Tywin doesn't honour Catelyn's deal with Tyrion. The host that bring Jaime to King's Landing makes Cersei look less a liar by returning to Winterfell with fArya, gone to marry Ramsey, who has turned up alive and well, another key to Winterfell. Although by that stage, only Jaime and Brienne are interested in keeping Tyrion's promises. Tywin wasn't even slightly interested in what Lady Catelyn would make of that. Roose was more bothered with sharing his prunes with them than with Tyrion's promises

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“What the Imp did or did nor swear scarcely matters now,” said Lord Bolton. “Least of all to you.” The wench looked almost wounded.

(ASoS, Ch.37 Jaime V)

even though Roose has assured her Arya was alive, when Jaime and Brienne dined with him, after Robb's marriage to Jeyne, and before Edmure's wedding. Of course, what he says about Arya is ambigous and full of dramatic irony. It is likely he is lying about Arya, that he means fArya.

The real Arya left Roose's protection the night before Jaime arrived at Harrenhal, obliging her betrothed to serve at table instead. So she did not witness Bolton's second observable act of treason:

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“I serve Lady Stark.”
“And I the King in the North. Or the King Who Lost the North, as some now call him. Who never wished to trade Ser Jaime back to the Lannisters.”

(ASoS, Ch.37 Jaime V)

He trades Ser Jaime back to the Lannisters.

Roose knew his bastard son was alive and taking over Winterfell from Theon, who killed Bran and Rikon, before he ordered Arya to pluck the leeches off him, before he committed his first observed treason.

He might have marched on Harrenhal, but after Robett Glover and Vargo Hoat had opened the doors for him, and there was no need to kill every living soul in the castle. (Amabel lived to find a pink silk gown to give to Qyburn to present to Lady Brienne, for instance).

"Tainted blood is ever treacherous" is interesting, coming from someone who leeches himself incessantly to "purge himself of bad blood".  Roose makes a point of telling Theon that Ramsey poisoned Domeric, and will kill any future trueborn sons, but Maester Uthor said Domeric died of a bad belly, and Domeric was in the care of the Redforts at the time. How could Roose be so certain it was poison?

Roose's having nothing to say to the Redforts, and his bringing Ramsey to live with him at the Dreadfort after he killed Domeric seems a strange way of dealing with the murderer of his trueborn son and heir. In the tale he tells Theon, he seems to blame Domeric for deciding to visit Ramsey as a grown man the once, notwithstanding the drastic price he had paid for his disobedience.

Given the propensity for people to be other people when the Boltons are around ( Ramsey and Theon as Reek, the millers boys as Bran and Rickon, Jeyne Poole as Arya, Mance and his wildlings as Abel and his washerwomen, the sentry who stood in as Roose when he met Ramsey at Moat Cailin) I'd suspect Ramsey was really Domeric, and it was rRamsey that died of a bad belly, after Domeric drove a sword through it, execept for the face to face mutual animosity of Lady Dustin and Ramsey.

Roose's casual acceptance of his past and future sons fate is all for the benefit of the listener. I mean, look at the way Ramsey is dressed when he is reunited with his father

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Ramsay Bolton was attired as befit the lord of the Hornwood and heir to the Dreadfort. His mantle was stitched together from wolfskins and clasped against the autumn chill by the yellowed teeth of the wolf’s head on his right shoulder.

Who gave him the wolfpelts? Who asked the King to make him heir to the Dreadfort?

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We have powerful friends in the Lannisters and Freys, and the grudging support of much of the north … but what do you imagine is going to happen when one of Ned Stark’s sons turns up?”...
“Stark’s little wolflings are dead,” said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, “and they’ll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again.”
The elder Bolton sighed. “Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard’s sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak’s work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we’d retain if the truth were known? ... By the king’s decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one.
...There are tidings that you need to hear. Lord Stannis has finally left the Wall.”
That got Ramsay halfway to his feet, a smile glistening on his wide, wet lips. “Is he marching on the Dreadfort?”
“He is not, alas. Arnolf does not understand it. He swears that he did all he could to bait the trap.”
“I wonder. Scratch a Karstark and you’ll find a Stark.”
“After the scratch the Young Wolf gave Lord Rickard, that may be somewhat less true than formerly. Be that as it may. Lord Stannis has taken Deepwood Motte from the ironmen and restored it to House Glover. Worse, the mountain clans have joined him, Wull and Norrey and Liddle and the rest. His strength is growing.”

(ADwD, Ch.32 Reek III)

Roose knew about fake Bran and fake Rickon before he reunited with Ramsey at Moat Cailin. He knew to blame the Ironmen for the work of the Dreadfort before he not just recognised, but legitimised his son. Long before he spoke so 'carelessly' to Theon about his kinslaying 'bastard'.

Roose knew Stannis was a real threat to him, and he wants Stannis defeated from Winterfell, not Barrowtown. With Ramsey as the Prince of Winterfell, not himself. But he wants Lady Dustin's co-operation, and she wants to see Theon Greyjoy.

Roose did not become Warden of the North by accident. He scented the opportunity when Robb first called the banners. From the start he was one of those who pressed Robb to march to Moat Cailin when Robb's father's orders would have been for Robb to stay at Winterfell while the archers of Galbert Glovers and Helman Tallheart held Moat Cailin.

From the start, Roose has been quietly steering Robb by his own advice, and by influencing Robb's bannermen behind his back, to depopulate the lands around the Dreadfort, to have their Lords killed first (Cerwyn then Hornwood, then Karstark), clearing his way to Winterfell, and ensuring the neighbours at his back, have his back. It wouldn't surprise me if he had Stevorn Frey killed in his sleep, either.

And Roose chose to have Ramsey as his castellen at the Dreadfort. It seems unlikely that the man who could resent his dead trueborn son going to visit his bastard after living six years away from him, would tolerate Ramsey doing as he pleased with the Dreadfort while he was fighting in the south for the North.

More likely they have been in communication since Roose first departed, that Roose had informed Ramsey of the deaths of Lord Hornwood and his heir, possibly before Lady Hornwood knew, possibly even before Daryn had joined his father.

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“Bolton’s bastard is massing men at the Dreadfort,” she warned them. “I hope he means to take them south to join his father at the Twins, but when I sent to ask his intent, he told me that no Bolton would be questioned by a woman. As if he were trueborn and had a right to that name.”

(ACoK,Ch.16 Bran II)

We know Roose has had at least one communication with Ramsey before the Red Wedding

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"Lord Bolton has brought us further word of Winterfell,” Robb added. “Ser Rodrik was not the only good man to die. Cley Cerwyn and Leobald Tallhart were slain as well.”
“Cley Cerwyn was only a boy,” she said, saddened. “Is this true, then? All dead, and Winterfell gone?”
Bolton’s pale eyes met her own. “The ironmen burned both castle and winter town. Some of your people were taken back to the Dreadfort by my son, Ramsay.”
“Your bastard was accused of grievous crimes,” Catelyn reminded him sharply. “Of murder, rape, and worse.”
“Yes,” Roose Bolton said. “His blood is tainted, that cannot be denied. Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless. When the ironmen cut down Ser Rodrik, and Leobald Tallhart soon after, it fell to Ramsay to lead the battle, and he did. He swears that he shall not sheathe his sword so long as a single Greyjoy remains in the north. Perhaps such service might atone in some small measure for whatever crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit.” He shrugged. “Or not. When the war is done, His Grace must weigh and judge. By then I hope to have a trueborn son by Lady Walda.”
This is a cold man, Catelyn realized, not for the first time.
“Did Ramsay mention Theon Greyjoy?” Robb demanded. “Was he slain as well, or did he flee?”
Roose Bolton removed a ragged strip of leather from the pouch at his belt. “My son sent this with his letter.”
Ser Wendel turned his fat face away. Robin Flint and Smalljon Umber exchanged a look, and the Greatjon snorted like a bull. “Is that … skin?” said Robb.
“The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy’s left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. And yet … what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this … small token of revenge?”
Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. “Put it away. Please.”
“Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back,” Robb said. “I want his head, not his skin.”
“He is Balon Greyjoy’s only living son,” Lord Bolton said softly, as if they had forgotten, “and now rightful King of the Iron Islands. A captive king has great value as a hostage.”
“Hostage?” The word raised Catelyn’s hackles. Hostages were oft exchanged. “Lord Bolton, I hope you are not suggesting that we free the man who killed my sons.”
“Whoever wins the Seastone Chair will want Theon Greyjoy dead,” Bolton pointed out. “Even in chains, he has a better claim than any of his uncles. Hold him, I say, and demand concessions from the ironborn as the price of his execution.”

A pack of lies, although that may be the real reason Roose wants Theon alive. Roose treating with Euron Crows Eye. The mind boggles.

Bolton's lies are less obvious than Frey lies, but they are like them in that their non-Stark allies don't trust or especially believe them, any more than they contradict them. And really, the Freys (and the Greyjoys) are simply pelts Roose can wear to work his evil deeds through, they happily own the blame and the enmity for carrying out his plans, and tend to believe that they are their own. What he tells them (or Jaime, or Theon) as they carry out his plans, is less than he knows, and only what serves him.

What he told Theon, his mention of Domeric, of his wife's 'fertile feel' and her pleasure in him, seems entirely to rile Ramsey. Bolton's caution, his prunes and his leeches, are those of a man who has every intention of living longer than the seventeen years it would minimally take for Walda to raise a true-born son to adulthood. Ramsey is the one who lives like there is no tomorrow.

I don't understand why Lady Dustin demanded Roose Bolton bring Theon Greyjoy to her that night. Or how it served Bolton to oblige her. But most of what he said is directly contradicted by what he does, and he has form from lying, and what he says on the way to Barrowtown is of a piece with it.

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7 hours ago, Walda said:

It seems to me to be all for show. ...

And Roose seems very confident of the accuracy of his information on Tywin's movements

Tywin likewise seems to be aware that the Red Fork will be well guarded, and not at all bothered by the risk that he will be wedged between Edmure's forces and Roose's when he left Harrenhal. ... Almost like he knows Roose has his back.

...

"Tainted blood is ever treacherous" is interesting, coming from someone who leeches himself incessantly to "purge himself of bad blood".  Roose makes a point of telling Theon that Ramsey poisoned Domeric, and will kill any future trueborn sons, but Maester Uthor said Domeric died of a bad belly, and Domeric was in the care of the Redforts at the time. How could Roose be so certain it was poison?

...

Roose's casual acceptance of his past and future sons fate is all for the benefit of the listener. I mean, look at the way Ramsey is dressed when he is reunited with his father

Who gave him the wolfpelts? Who asked the King to make him heir to the Dreadfort?

...

Roose did not become Warden of the North by accident. He scented the opportunity when Robb first called the banners. ...

From the start, Roose has been quietly steering Robb by his own advice, and by influencing Robb's bannermen behind his back, ...

Bolton's lies are less obvious than Frey lies, but they are like them in that their non-Stark allies don't trust or especially believe them, any more than they contradict them. And really, the Freys (and the Greyjoys) are simply pelts Roose can wear to work his evil deeds through, they happily own the blame and the enmity for carrying out his plans, and tend to believe that they are their own. What he tells them (or Jaime, or Theon) as they carry out his plans, is less than he knows, and only what serves him.

...

I don't understand why Lady Dustin demanded Roose Bolton bring Theon Greyjoy to her that night. Or how it served Bolton to oblige her. But most of what he said is directly contradicted by what he does, and he has form from lying, and what he says on the way to Barrowtown is of a piece with it.

Excellent presentation and very persuasive. Roose's support for the Starks was a "ruse" all along - he has been with Tywin from the start, it appears.

So the details of this book burning and wolf hunting don't indicate so much that Roose has decided to switch sides as that he has decided to make the last moves toward taking out Robb and revealing his longtime hidden loyalty. The things he may have been waiting for finally came true in this chapter: the Freys as a group have openly expressed their collective opinion that Robb cannot win and that he should bend the knee to Joffrey; and the news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling reaches the Freys. This leads to the withdrawal of the Frey bannermen. Roose then sends the Tallheart and Glover forces into a trap at Duskendale. (Hmm. When have we seen Duskendale used as a trap for a king?) So he has done his best to weaken Robb's support and to make Robb vulnerable on several levels.

As for Lady Dustin's insistence on seeing Theon, I've just done a close reading of ACoK, Theon IV, the chapter where Theon leads a hunting party from Winterfell to look for Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor and the Reeds. I think that chapter might be intended as a strong companion to this chapter (ACoK, Arya X). There is language and imagery in that Theon chapter that clearly juxtaposes Theon and Roose as opposites in contention for control of the North:

Reek stepped close. "Strip off their skins," he urged, his thick lips glistening. "Lord Bolton, he used to say a naked man has few secrets, but a flayed man's got none."

. . . "There will be no flaying in the north so long as I rule in Winterfell," Theon said loudly. I am your only protection against the likes of him, he wanted to scream.

(ACoK, Theon IV)

In the Arya chapter, we see Roose lying naked on a table while the leeches are doing their work - so he has a few secrets, the author is telling us.

When you realize that Roose has been aiming all along to wipe out the Starks and take control of Winterfell, you realize that Theon's takeover actually might have put a monkey wrench in his plans. It appears to be useful, since Ramsay as Reek can use it as a chance to secretly infiltrate the castle and get Theon to do his dirty work. But Roose really needed Bran and Rickon dead. He probably planned for Ramsay to capture Winterfell at the right moment, or to otherwise have Bran and Rickon killed - maybe he had another catspaw at work. (In Arya X, there is a moment when she sees a cat and thinks that she could catch it, but she doesn't have time.) Theon's arrival at Winterfell allowed Osha and Meera and Jojen and Hodor and the direwolves to save the Stark heirs, preventing an essential piece of Roose's plan from coming to fruition. He had to settle for the killing of the miller's boys presented as the killing of the Stark heirs, but his whole scheme could collapse if the northern banner men learn that there are still living Stark children somewhere in hiding.

The Theon chapter is loaded with literary irony, and this is probably a big piece of it: Theon actually saved the Stark heirs when he invaded Winterfell and allowed Ramsay to pretend to kill the boys. His clumsy invasion and occupation allowed them to escape. Otherwise Roose would have completed that piece of his overall plan and Bran and Rickon would have really died.

In her actions at Winterfell after the Ramsay / fArya wedding, Lady Dustin may know what Manderly has learned from Wex Pyke: that Rickon is thought to be alive. She is part of the symbolism of restoring Theon, pulling him out of his "Reek" delusion so that he can continue as the foil of Roose Bolton. She wants him to get a grip and reach Stannis, maybe, to help Stannis liberate Winterfell by sharing his inside knowledge of the buildings and of Roose's garrison. Roose needs Lady Dustin's support, so he lets her have contact with Theon. He must not realize that Theon is going to be his downfall, for some reason, which is a little surprising given his good intelligence gathering in the other situations you described. He has too much faith that Ramsay has destroyed Theon's will or maybe he thinks he can give Barbary a little slack without losing control of her. He doesn't realize that she has allies in the form of the washerwomen and Abel to loosen the Bolton hold on Winterfell by helping Theon and fArya to escape.

I can't wait to see how this plays out next in TWoW.

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On 4/21/2017 at 3:45 PM, hiemal said:

Perhaps it relates to his betrayal of the Starks- some of the Lords are already questioning Robb's ability to govern the North and conduct a successful southron campaign. Perhaps the book recounts some vows made to Kings of Winter and burning it symbolizes that he is done with the King in the North?

So Roose goes wolf hunting and takes back some furs.  It would be interesting if the book was about skin changers.  Maybe Roose read the information he needs to know to fight them.  Which led to the killing of Greywind soon after the death of Robb.  Just in case Robb warged his wolf at the last minute.  The beheading of a dead wolf and a dead man was excessive and perhaps it was done as a precaution.  To make sure Robb never comes back to life.  No Catelyn comeback act for Robb.

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15 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

So Roose goes wolf hunting and takes back some furs.  It would be interesting if the book was about skin changers.  Maybe Roose read the information he needs to know to fight them.  Which led to the killing of Greywind soon after the death of Robb.  Just in case Robb warged his wolf at the last minute.  The beheading of a dead wolf and a dead man was excessive and perhaps it was done as a precaution.  To make sure Robb never comes back to life.  No Catelyn comeback act for Robb.

That's a brilliant idea!  

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13 hours ago, Walda said:

Me neither.

It seems to me to be all for show.

 

One of the cardinal rules of reading ASoIaF is to take no one at their word, but I confess you've caught me yet again breaking it. Thanks for that. :)

13 hours ago, Walda said:

...

Bolton's lies are less obvious than Frey lies, but they are like them in that their non-Stark allies don't trust or especially believe them, any more than they contradict them. And really, the Freys (and the Greyjoys) are simply pelts Roose can wear to work his evil deeds through, they happily own the blame and the enmity for carrying out his plans, and tend to believe that they are their own. What he tells them (or Jaime, or Theon) as they carry out his plans, is less than he knows, and only what serves him.

What he told Theon, his mention of Domeric, of his wife's 'fertile feel' and her pleasure in him, seems entirely to rile Ramsey. Bolton's caution, his prunes and his leeches, are those of a man who has every intention of living longer than the seventeen years it would minimally take for Walda to raise a true-born son to adulthood. Ramsey is the one who lives like there is no tomorrow.

I don't understand why Lady Dustin demanded Roose Bolton bring Theon Greyjoy to her that night. Or how it served Bolton to oblige her. But most of what he said is directly contradicted by what he does, and he has form from lying, and what he says on the way to Barrowtown is of a piece with it.

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled (ooh, poor choice of words in a Bolton thread...) during my current reread to Bolton weasel words.

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3 hours ago, The Transporter said:

So Roose goes wolf hunting and takes back some furs.  It would be interesting if the book was about skin changers.  Maybe Roose read the information he needs to know to fight them.  Which led to the killing of Greywind soon after the death of Robb.  Just in case Robb warged his wolf at the last minute.  The beheading of a dead wolf and a dead man was excessive and perhaps it was done as a precaution.  To make sure Robb never comes back to life.  No Catelyn comeback act for Robb.

.I like this a lot, but I'm not sure why he would burn such a book.

Unless perhaps he actually had some idea of Arya's true identity and abilities (reading and skinchanging).

Intriguing.

 

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For fun, here is my Bolton "meditation" music, something I put on when I want to ponder Lord Leech and his House, an unpleasant song for an unpleasant man:

"Words of the Dying", Controlled Bleeding

 

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Recently I came up with a good theory for this.  

 

What if Tywin and Roose were already in communication before Roose took Harrenhall? Maybe Tywin had planned for Roose to take Harrenhall all along, which is why he left practically no one of importance in charge of it by the time Roose was due to arrive. So Tywin wrote a message in the book for Roose, and had told Roose which book and page to view the message, in which he finalized the deal for Roose to Betray Robb and become Warden in the North. 

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Found this quite by accident last night about Roose's activity level. Not sure how he's of any use in war by this description.

Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. "Light some candles," he commanded her as he turned a page. "It grows gloomy in here."

She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire.

ASOS Arya I: The Lord of the Dreadfort would not come after them himself. Roose Bolton would stay abed, his pasty flesh dotted with leeches, giving commands in his whispery soft voice.

For Roose to just reach into the fireplace and put the book there, he'd have to almost be practically sitting in the fireplace himself, or he has super-long arms. Sitting close to the fire would make sense given that anemia makes one quite cold, but not practically in the fire. Roose comments that it was dark, so he probably wasn't that close to the fire. So did Roose get up to put the book in the fire even though Arya was close?

Or is this more about how much Roose is leeching himself and we're to wonder why he would be going to that extreme?

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28 minutes ago, E.S. Dinah said:

The story of the Rat Cook.  Roose had to think before the plans for the red wedding were finalized.  He knew guest rights would be broken but the story was not enough to stop him. 

Great catch! Roose is repeatedly described as white and associated with rats (Freys).

And it explains the mouse-supper passage below which has been bugging me. Arya is wearing a Bolton sigil and cloak, fArya will be Roose's daughter-in-law. She's his "daughter". Roose also cares nothing about the deaths of his children.

 

She should have gone, silent as a mouse, but something had hold of her. "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"

He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him. "Did I give you leave to question me, Nan?"

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Great catch! Roose is repeatedly described as white and associated with rats (Freys).

And it explains the mouse-supper passage below which has been bugging me. Arya is wearing a Bolton sigil and cloak, fArya will be Roose's daughter-in-law. She's his "daughter". Roose also cares nothing about the deaths of his children.

 

She should have gone, silent as a mouse, but something had hold of her. "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"

 

He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him. "Did I give you leave to question me, Nan?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roose is not accustomed to questions.  He does the asking.  

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On 4/22/2017 at 0:26 PM, zandru said:

This. I recall, back in the 1990s, how it bewildered most Americans that folks in the former Yugoslavia could be so obsessed by a few incidents that happened 500-1000 years in the past. Not every people is so driven by past history. But some are, and both Starks and Boltons go way back to the First Men.

I think that the burning of the book, and the book that was burned are probably both significant. George RR has a way of throwing out seemingly trivial things that end up figuring big a book or so down the line.

They have been the Alpha and Beta houses in the North for thousands of years. The North remembers...

On 4/22/2017 at 0:58 PM, Lollygag said:

Ties to the Others would also explain his disinterest in literal heirs, provided the Boltons aren't special the way that the Crasters are special. An apocalypse where everyone becomes undead make heirs pointless. An association with wights through Others would also explain the undead/Vampire thing.

I really hope there's no literal Vampires. I'll never get the image of a naked sparkly Roose out of my head.

Reek this is the skin of a killer...

On 4/22/2017 at 4:23 PM, Lollygag said:

Thinking about how the FM and Boltons may be connected.

The Others themselves might actually be water, though they're more strongly connected to the ice form. To be liquid water, you need to add heat, so without fire added (water’s opposite), it can only be ice.

The FM oppose fire and water is the most changeable element. Its shape changes to that of its container, and can take the forms of ice, liquid, or vapor. So what the FM do might be a form of water magic as they put on a “container” in the form of a face and become no one, or let the container shape them. Nymeria’s name fits very well, if Arya is in fact mastering a water magic from the the Rhoyne. Also, a lot of Syrio’s instruction to Arya can be summarized as “be like water”, and in fact, she was learning water dancing. If the Boltons are in fact connected to the Others, and what they do sounds similar to what the FM do, then the Boltons performing a similar water magic and being connected to the Others makes sense.

FM as in Faceless Men and not First Men... right?

11 hours ago, Seams said:

Excellent presentation and very persuasive. Roose's support for the Starks was a "ruse" all along - he has been with Tywin from the start, it appears.

So the details of this book burning and wolf hunting don't indicate so much that Roose has decided to switch sides as that he has decided to make the last moves toward taking out Robb and revealing his longtime hidden loyalty. The things he may have been waiting for finally came true in this chapter: the Freys as a group have openly expressed their collective opinion that Robb cannot win and that he should bend the knee to Joffrey; and the news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling reaches the Freys. This leads to the withdrawal of the Frey bannermen. Roose then sends the Tallheart and Glover forces into a trap at Duskendale. (Hmm. When have we seen Duskendale used as a trap for a king?) So he has done his best to weaken Robb's support and to make Robb vulnerable on several levels.

As for Lady Dustin's insistence on seeing Theon, I've just done a close reading of ACoK, Theon IV, the chapter where Theon leads a hunting party from Winterfell to look for Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor and the Reeds. I think that chapter might be intended as a strong companion to this chapter (ACoK, Arya X). There is language and imagery in that Theon chapter that clearly juxtaposes Theon and Roose as opposites in contention for control of the North:

Reek stepped close. "Strip off their skins," he urged, his thick lips glistening. "Lord Bolton, he used to say a naked man has few secrets, but a flayed man's got none."

. . . "There will be no flaying in the north so long as I rule in Winterfell," Theon said loudly. I am your only protection against the likes of him, he wanted to scream.

(ACoK, Theon IV)

In the Arya chapter, we see Roose lying naked on a table while the leeches are doing their work - so he has a few secrets, the author is telling us.

When you realize that Roose has been aiming all along to wipe out the Starks and take control of Winterfell, you realize that Theon's takeover actually might have put a monkey wrench in his plans. It appears to be useful, since Ramsay as Reek can use it as a chance to secretly infiltrate the castle and get Theon to do his dirty work. But Roose really needed Bran and Rickon dead. He probably planned for Ramsay to capture Winterfell at the right moment, or to otherwise have Bran and Rickon killed - maybe he had another catspaw at work. (In Arya X, there is a moment when she sees a cat and thinks that she could catch it, but she doesn't have time.) Theon's arrival at Winterfell allowed Osha and Meera and Jojen and Hodor and the direwolves to save the Stark heirs, preventing an essential piece of Roose's plan from coming to fruition. He had to settle for the killing of the miller's boys presented as the killing of the Stark heirs, but his whole scheme could collapse if the northern banner men learn that there are still living Stark children somewhere in hiding.

The Theon chapter is loaded with literary irony, and this is probably a big piece of it: Theon actually saved the Stark heirs when he invaded Winterfell and allowed Ramsay to pretend to kill the boys. His clumsy invasion and occupation allowed them to escape. Otherwise Roose would have completed that piece of his overall plan and Bran and Rickon would have really died.

In her actions at Winterfell after the Ramsay / fArya wedding, Lady Dustin may know what Manderly has learned from Wex Pyke: that Rickon is thought to be alive. She is part of the symbolism of restoring Theon, pulling him out of his "Reek" delusion so that he can continue as the foil of Roose Bolton. She wants him to get a grip and reach Stannis, maybe, to help Stannis liberate Winterfell by sharing his inside knowledge of the buildings and of Roose's garrison. Roose needs Lady Dustin's support, so he lets her have contact with Theon. He must not realize that Theon is going to be his downfall, for some reason, which is a little surprising given his good intelligence gathering in the other situations you described. He has too much faith that Ramsay has destroyed Theon's will or maybe he thinks he can give Barbary a little slack without losing control of her. He doesn't realize that she has allies in the form of the washerwomen and Abel to loosen the Bolton hold on Winterfell by helping Theon and fArya to escape.

I can't wait to see how this plays out next in TWoW.

I don't think he was against the Stark in the beginning. His early actions were attempting to remove the strength of his neighbors and increase the power and strength of is House. Marrying the Frey's was hopefully to make him a bigger role in the new independent North.

Only after Robb lost the Frey's and Karsarks he knew it was over.

10 hours ago, The Transporter said:

So Roose goes wolf hunting and takes back some furs.  It would be interesting if the book was about skin changers.  Maybe Roose read the information he needs to know to fight them.  Which led to the killing of Greywind soon after the death of Robb.  Just in case Robb warged his wolf at the last minute.  The beheading of a dead wolf and a dead man was excessive and perhaps it was done as a precaution.  To make sure Robb never comes back to life.  No Catelyn comeback act for Robb.

Can of Coke for you that is excellent.

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I think it's meant to show how little regard he has for things (even rare/valuable ones) once they no longer are of use to him. he's read the book, taken from it whatever he needs, and got rid of it. he cares nothing for the work gone into it or the fact that it has any value.

I also like what another poster had once said on  a different thread that burning the book has the added benefit of him gaining knowledge that now no one else can have, thereby making it more valuable.

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22 hours ago, The Transporter said:

The beheading of a dead wolf and a dead man was excessive and perhaps it was done as a precaution.  To make sure Robb never comes back to life.  No Catelyn comeback act for Robb.

Maybe, but it's also just the typical ritual humiliation of a defeated foe. Like Achilles dragging Hector's body around and around the walls of Troy tied to his chariot. Of course Gray Wind was killed - he was well known to be one of Robb's deadliest weapons. And as many of Robb's men as could be killed were. Heck, the Freys even went after a wayward hog farmer and his little son who happened to turn up at the wrong time in the wrong place!

"No Catelyn comeback act", eh? I'd say the return of a man with a direwolf's head would be much more frightening and dangerous. Probably no chance of that, but....

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