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Bolton's Burnt Book: Mysterious Reading


hiemal

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On 25/04/2017 at 2:51 AM, zandru said:

but it's also just the typical ritual humiliation of a defeated foe

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Sansa did not need to hear how her brother’s body had been hacked and mutilated, he decided; nor how her mother’s corpse had been dumped naked into the Green Fork in a savage mockery of House Tully’s funeral customs

.(ASoS,Ch.58 Tyrion VII)

Guess the Freys trusted the Tullys not to turn into supernatural zombies. Devil you think you know, and all that.

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Sansa did not need to hear how her brother’s body had been hacked and mutilated, he decided; nor how her mother’s corpse had been dumped naked into the Green Fork in a savage mockery of House Tully’s funeral customs

(ASoS, Tyrion VII)

3 hours ago, Walda said:

.(ASoS,Ch.58 Tyrion VII)

Guess the Freys trusted the Tullys not to turn into supernatural zombies. Devil you think you know, and all that.

This is an interesting point. In addition to floating the body on a boat down the river, part of the Tully funerary ritual is to set the boat on fire after it has been launched. The problem of igniting Hoster's funeral boat is a concern until the Black Fish grabs the bow and accomplishes the task. (Correct me if I'm wrong - I think that's in the books and not just the show.)

So what does it mean that Catelyn's "rebirth" is achieved with red god fire magic of some kind? Are the Tully's ensuring an "afterlife" for their dead lords by combining the river with fire, or are they ensuring that their dead lords DON'T RISE by setting the boat on fire? Is the difference that the dead Tully lords are cremated from the outside in, while fire magic (if that's the right term for it) is breathed into Catelyn's mouth? Or that her body washed up again on the riverbank instead of being cremated while in the water?

This could be relevant to the OP because the book Roose put in the fire was being "read" by a ghost as it was being burned. If fire has the power to revive, maybe Roose wasn't destroying the book by burning it, but symbolically giving it to the red god and giving it a new life on a larger scale.

P. S. There's something important going on with the word "savage". I can't get the A Search of Ice and Fire site to work on this computer but I'm going to try to research that word next time I'm at the library.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

P. S. There's something important going on with the word "savage". I can't get the A Search of Ice and Fire site to work on this computer but I'm going to try to research that word next time I'm at the library.

aSoIaF doesn't work on my PC either.  But it DOES work on my iPod.  Strange times. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/23/2017 at 5:11 PM, BoltonsBastard said:

Recently I came up with a good theory for this. 

What if Tywin and Roose were already in communication before Roose took Harrenhall? Maybe Tywin had planned for Roose to take Harrenhall all along, which is why he left practically no one of importance in charge of it by the time Roose was due to arrive. So Tywin wrote a message in the book for Roose, and had told Roose which book and page to view the message, in which he finalized the deal for Roose to Betray Robb and become Warden in the North. 

I was just rereading this thread and found your overlooked but excellent theory. I think you might be right, even if Tywin wasn't sure Roose would be the guy to take over Harrenhal (it could have been Glover, who was one of the northmen in the dungeon liberated by the Weasel soup). Tywin could have given the book to a trusted spy he had left behind, or just coded the message in some way that no one would be able to decipher it even if they did stumble across it in Roose's absence. He may have even had the book with him when he left Harrenhal, intending to deliver it to Roose by messenger wherever he might be. The delivery was made easier when Roose was sent to Harrenhal, not far from where Tywin had traveled.

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  • 7 months later...

If Roose suspected that Nan could read and was making a show of destroying this particular book, it occurs to me that Arya might have already read it or at least glanced at it. The way she approaches her inner narrative makes me think it possible (I'm not arguing likely) that she could witness the book's destruction and not react with any narrative callback to content or even title due to the way she seems to compartmentalize mentally- what happens to Arya  might not be directly recalled by Cat, for example, or skimmed over as I think her experiences with Nymeria and using a cat's eyes to see while her own are blinded are. She has motive for snooping and her duties could have given her opportunity.

In other words- although I think it's a long shot, I think it's not impossible knows what was in that book and that it might be more important than it's sudden but easily overlooked appearance and destruction might lead us to believe.

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  • 2 months later...

During my latest re-read I was struck by this chain of events:

 

"And tend to Lady Walda's letter."
"As you say, my lord."
The lord and maester swept from the room, giving her not so much as a backward glance. When they were gone, Arya took the letter and carried it to the hearth, stirring the logs with a poker to wake the flames anew. She watched the parchment twist, blacken, and flare up.
. . . to . . .
Under the windows was a huge oaken table where the lord wrote his letters. She stacked the books, changed the candles, put the quills and inks and sealing wax in order.
. . . to . . .
Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. " ... ACoK
 
Perhaps Roose is tipped off to Arya's literacy by her knowing which parchment to burn and is further made suspicious by her tampering with his books. The he makes a big song and dance about burning this one particular volume?
All of which makes me wonder if he didn't let Arya go (with his map and dagger and horses) for reasons of his own? Their escape just seems a little... too neat for me.
 
" The sheepskin map was on the table, beside the remains of Lord Bolton's supper. She rolled it up tight and thrust it through her belt. He'd left his dagger on the table as well, so she took that too...
. . .to. . .
No one saw her, and she saw no one, only a grey and white cat creeping along atop the godswood wall. It stopped and spit at her, waking memories of the Red Keep and her father and Syrio Forel. "I could catch you if I wanted," she called to it softly, "but I have to go, cat."
...ACoK
 
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Roose is an interesting character... and I want to believe there is more going on here then I fully grasp yet. Is it possible Roose knew who Arya was, could have caught Arya, but didn’t?

Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

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9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Roose is an interesting character... and I want to believe there is more going on here then I fully grasp yet. Is it possible Roose knew who Arya was, could have caught Arya, but didn’t?

Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

I've been wondering the same thing. If he knew Nan was Arya he would also know that his betrayal was revealed- he orders Glover and Tallheart  to Duskendale and defeat for no viable military reason (from the perspective of the North) and allowed her to walk away with that as well as whatever she may or may not have learned from his weird book. I'm hard-pressed to imagine a good reason why he would do that.

On the other hand, I think Arya is still a novice at wearing her many faces and names and so I'm almost positive that Roose does suspect that she is more than she appears. So why the show and why allow her to slip away? Did Roose send the Mummers after them or did Hoat, I wonder?

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I've been wondering the same thing. If he knew Nan was Arya he would also know that his betrayal was revealed- he orders Cerwyn and Tallheart (I think?) to Duskendale and defeat for no viable military reason (from the perspective of the North) and allowed her to walk away with that as well as whatever she may or may not have learned from his weird book. I'm hard-pressed to imagine a good reason why he would do that.

On the other hand, I think Arya is still a novice at wearing her many faces and names and so I'm almost positive that Roose does suspect that she is more than she appears. So why the show and why allow her to slip away? Did Roose send the Mummers after them or did Hoat, I wonder?

But if he knew who she was, why not simply detain and/or kill her? If he keeps her with him she is a useful piece later on - there would be no need to have a fake Arya for example. And if he is concerned because he realised his servant a literate and can let slip his betrayal, well, Roose doesn’t seem the sort that would have any qualms over killing such a servants. I find the whole situation a bit confusing quite honestly, and can make neither heads nor tails of Roose’s actions. They don’t really gel with him knowing Nan is Arya but they do seem to suggest...something. A part of me thinks it was just GRRM’s way of showing that yep this guy is going to be creepy and mysterious. But honestly who knows? 

I don’t think we will ever find out more though, and this will be one of the mysteries people continue to bring up from time to time even after the series is over; what was in the book? And did Roose realise Nan was Arya?

 

eta: hmm re-reading your post it seems like we actually agree that Roose wouldn’t let her go if he knew she was Arya, sorry

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One of my favorite Arya scenes in the series is in this chapter and I think it is important here because it shows how so much in this chapter is more than what it seems and it shows Arya struggling with her many faces/names- after all, she is wishing herself dead!

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."
A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided.
Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."
It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies," she said"... ACoK
 
 
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On 4/21/2017 at 5:59 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Proof that House Bolton as it is now is descended from the Night's King.

Or proof that NK wasn't a Stark after all.

Come to think of it...those two would work quite well together. NK could well have been a Bolton.

:agree:

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So Roose just happened to find a book about the Starks that paints them in a positive light?  They're in the middle of war and Roose searched for a book about the NK .  I'm not buying it.  What question comes to a man like that during a time like that?  Maybe there's a historical precedent for the red wedding.  How to get past the bog devils and their poison arrows.  A book about the defenses of moat Cailin.  A cook book for Walda.   Something practical.

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23 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But if he knew who she was, why not simply detain and/or kill her? If he keeps her with him she is a useful piece later on - there would be no need to have a fake Arya for example. And if he is concerned because he realised his servant a literate and can let slip his betrayal, well, Roose doesn’t seem the sort that would have any qualms over killing such a servants. I find the whole situation a bit confusing quite honestly, and can make neither heads nor tails of Roose’s actions. They don’t really gel with him knowing Nan is Arya but they do seem to suggest...something. A part of me thinks it was just GRRM’s way of showing that yep this guy is going to be creepy and mysterious. But honestly who knows? 

I don’t think we will ever find out more though, and this will be one of the mysteries people continue to bring up from time to time even after the series is over; what was in the book? And did Roose realise Nan was Arya?

 

I realize you are conversing with another poster. I wanted to add my penny's worth.

23 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But if he knew who she was, why not simply detain and/or kill her? If he keeps her with him she is a useful piece later on - there would be no need to have a fake Arya for example

I have done the mental gymnastics as to when Bolton threw in with Tywin.  I have not come up with a textual answer that is satisfactory in my pea brain.

All speculation and assumption on my part until Martin lets loose of the you know what. Even then this fArya bit isn’t going to matter because I the reader already know that fArya escaped WF with Theon. Theon can identify Arya Stark. Who is going to believe him given his history

Depending on when Roose cut the deal with Lannister ----  if Roose came to the conclusion his cup bearer is Arya Stark --- if Roose already has a fake promised to him ---- what better way to deal with the real deal than to let her perish at Harenhall.

Let’s say Tywin communicates with Roose. Never know what dem maesters and raven be up to. Was there a maester at Harrenhal?  Tywin writes to Roose---- I will give you a girl who is easy to manipulate and will give your legitimized bastard son the womb of WF.

The tricky part for me is which book did Martin give Jeyne to Bolton and which book did Tywin marry Sansa to Tyrion. In this instance chapters/pov’s don’t really matter because the story telling is out of whack, as in there is no continuity in Martin’s in book story ---one chapter forward & two chapters back.

If the child Arya Stark had revealed herself at Harrenhal after the soup thing that was Jaqen’s idea would anyone believe her? when she said she was Eddard's long missing daughter.

It is not until Arya is traveling with the Hound and she is taken by the brotherhood that a Stark loyalist recognizes her and then she is ripe for ransom.

Back to Roose and whether he knew his cup bearer was Arya Stark ---- I’ll go out on a limb and say yes he knew and I will further say Roose figured Arya would die at Harrenhal. I’ll step out on a twig and say Arya can claim she is the daughter of Eddard -----  what proof does she have? In story she has no proof of who she is.

It all depends on how deeply a person wants to delve into the story of what happened when and supply the relevant quotes. In the end, if it ever come to fruition, whether Roose knew Arya was Arya isn't going to matter.

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15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I realize you are conversing with another poster. I wanted to add my penny's worth.

I have done the mental gymnastics as to when Bolton threw in with Tywin.  I have not come up with a textual answer that is satisfactory in my pea brain.

All speculation and assumption on my part until Martin lets loose of the you know what. Even then this fArya bit isn’t going to matter because I the reader already know that fArya escaped WF with Theon. Theon can identify Arya Stark. Who is going to believe him given his history

Depending on when Roose cut the deal with Lannister ----  if Roose came to the conclusion his cup bearer is Arya Stark --- if Roose already has a fake promised to him ---- what better way to deal with the real deal than to let her perish at Harenhall.

Let’s say Tywin communicates with Roose. Never know what dem maesters and raven be up to. Was there a maester at Harrenhal?  Tywin writes to Roose---- I will give you a girl who is easy to manipulate and will give your legitimized bastard son the womb of WF.

The tricky part for me is which book did Martin give Jeyne to Bolton and which book did Tywin marry Sansa to Tyrion. In this instance chapters/pov’s don’t really matter because the story telling is out of whack, as in there is no continuity in Martin’s in book story ---one chapter forward & two chapters back.

If the child Arya Stark had revealed herself at Harrenhal after the soup thing that was Jaqen’s idea would anyone believe her? when she said she was Eddard's long missing daughter.

It is not until Arya is traveling with the Hound and she is taken by the brotherhood that a Stark loyalist recognizes her and then she is ripe for ransom.

Back to Roose and whether he knew his cup bearer was Arya Stark ---- I’ll go out on a limb and say yes he knew and I will further say Roose figured Arya would die at Harrenhal. I’ll step out on a twig and say Arya can claim she is the daughter of Eddard -----  what proof does she have? In story she has no proof of who she is.

It all depends on how deeply a person wants to delve into the story of what happened when and supply the relevant quotes. In the end, if it ever come to fruition, whether Roose knew Arya was Arya isn't going to matter.

The question this raises to me though is why would Roose leave it to chance that she would die at Harrenhal? If he, as you suggested, knew who she was and figured she would be more of a nuisance than a fake (I’m not convinced by this actually, I think the real deal would be better in his eyes, agreement with Tywin or no, but i’ll set that aside for now) then why would he risk her surviving Harrenhal and coming back to cause trouble later? Far easier if he just outright kills her 

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On 2017-05-18 at 1:18 AM, Seams said:

I was just rereading this thread and found your overlooked but excellent theory. I think you might be right, even if Tywin wasn't sure Roose would be the guy to take over Harrenhal (it could have been Glover, who was one of the northmen in the dungeon liberated by the Weasel soup). Tywin could have given the book to a trusted spy he had left behind, or just coded the message in some way that no one would be able to decipher it even if they did stumble across it in Roose's absence. He may have even had the book with him when he left Harrenhal, intending to deliver it to Roose by messenger wherever he might be. The delivery was made easier when Roose was sent to Harrenhal, not far from where Tywin had traveled.

 

In the WOIAF-app it says that Boltons was set to take over Harrenhall but that Arya set up the overthrowing before he made it there.

Under Robett Glover it literally says:

Quote

The intention is for Hoat to then release them from their cells and use them to overthrow the Lannister garrison, led by Ser Amory Lorch. Thanks to Arya Stark, the prisoners are freed early.

 

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The question this raises to me though is why would Roose leave it to chance that she would die at Harrenhal?

I have no definitive answer merely a supposition. My personal interpretation is Roose knew or if you prefer suspected.

The relevance in my opinion is that Arya was present and involved with Roose.

As the saga progresses, when and if it does, Arya will potentially have information that transpired at Harrenhal during Roose’s tenure.

This still leaves me with how does Arya Stark prove she is the daughter of Eddard?  I’m not trying to be contrary. Roose is a cagey man. If he knew his cup bearer was Arya it matters not considering the circumstances.

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"   He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him. "

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    For a moment he looked amused. "I will answer you, just this once. I mean to give Harrenhal to Lord Vargo when I return to the north. You will remain here, with him."

Roose is going to leave Arya in Vargo’s control. 

Roose at one time or another musta came calling at WF.  If Roose did call at WF he musta seen Eddard's children. The only straw that I have is that Roose put two and two together concerning Arya/Nan saying “My Lord.” S-T-R-E-T-C-H.

Roose gets a bit testy with Theon about the My Lord/m'lord.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III   He did not understand. "My lord? I said—"   "—my lord, when you should have said m'lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say. If you want to sound a proper peasant, say it as if you had mud in your mouth, or were too stupid to realize it was two words, not just one."

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The question this raises to me though is why would Roose leave it to chance that she would die at Harrenhal? If he, as you suggested, knew who she was and figured she would be more of a nuisance than a fake (I’m not convinced by this actually, I think the real deal would be better in his eyes, agreement with Tywin or no, but i’ll set that aside for now) then why would he risk her surviving Harrenhal and coming back to cause trouble later? Far easier if he just outright kills her 

I shared with you. You shared with me. Thanks and cheers.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have no definitive answer merely a supposition. My personal interpretation is Roose knew or if you prefer suspected.

The relevance in my opinion is that Arya was present and involved with Roose.

As the saga progresses, when and if it does, Arya will potentially have information that transpired at Harrenhal during Roose’s tenure.

This still leaves me with how does Arya Stark prove she is the daughter of Eddard?  I’m not trying to be contrary. Roose is a cagey man. If he knew his cup bearer was Arya it matters not considering the circumstances.

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"   He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him. "

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    For a moment he looked amused. "I will answer you, just this once. I mean to give Harrenhal to Lord Vargo when I return to the north. You will remain here, with him."

Roose is going to leave Arya in Vargo’s control. 

Roose at one time or another musta came calling at WF.  If Roose did call at WF he musta seen Eddard's children. The only straw that I have is that Roose put two and two together concerning Arya/Nan saying “My Lord.” S-T-R-E-T-C-H.

Roose gets a bit testy with Theon about the My Lord/m'lord.

 

Hah, I came to the exact opposite conclusion from the same parts of text. :D

13 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    "My lord," she asked, "will you take me with you when you leave Harrenhal?"   He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him. "

Roose is rattled, meaning this wasn't an everyday-mundane-kind of conversation, meaning he'd remember it.

17 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Clash of Kings - Arya X    For a moment he looked amused. "I will answer you, just this once. I mean to give Harrenhal to Lord Vargo when I return to the north. You will remain here, with him."

But he then tells her that he will leave her, meaning he doesn't realise then and there who she might be.

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III   He did not understand. "My lord? I said—"   "—my lord, when you should have said m'lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say. If you want to sound a proper peasant, say it as if you had mud in your mouth, or were too stupid to realize it was two words, not just one."

This shows that he maybe re-evaluated his former cupbearer in hindsight.

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On 8.3.2018 at 3:31 AM, hiemal said:

Perhaps Roose is tipped off to Arya's literacy by her knowing which parchment to burn and is further made suspicious by her tampering with his books. The he makes a big song and dance about burning this one particular volume?

All of which makes me wonder if he didn't let Arya go (with his map and dagger and horses) for reasons of his own? Their escape just seems a little... too neat for me.

It could have been a Lothston book. Danelle Lothston turned to black arts. I assume the black arts are the same Melisandre uses. 

If we play devil's advocate for a second and assume Roose Bolton used the flames to read in them .... or the book taught him how to read in the flames and Arya was his first test subject ... he was propably freaked out and decided whatever this shit is, he will have none of it and that dark girl should just go.

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