Bolton's Burnt Book: Mysterious Reading

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

In the WOIAF-app it says that Boltons was set to take over Harrenhall but that Arya set up the overthrowing before he made it there.

That may be what the app said. I don't have.

According the CoK Jaqen set up the soup plan.

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX     "A girl will obey," Arya said. "What should I do?"    "A hundred men are hungry, they must be fed, the lord commands hot broth. A girl must run to the kitchens and tell her pie boy."      "Broth," she repeated. "Where will you be?"    "A girl will help make broth, and wait in the kitchens until a man comes for her. Go. Run."

12 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Hah, I came to the exact opposite conclusion from the same parts of text.

Yep, that happens.

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 

It could have been a Lothston book. Danelle Lothston turned to black arts. I assume the black arts are the same Melisandre uses.

That was one of my initial thoughts. I'm on the fence as to whether the rumors of sorcery and bathing in virgin's blood etc that dog certain women throughout his(GRRM)story is just something that is said about women who succeed on their own merits, particularly intellectual ones, or whether they've actually done these things. Either way something very interesting could perhaps be found in some dusty library.

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 

If we play devil's advocate for a second and assume Roose Bolton used the flames to read in them .... or the book taught him how to read in the flames and Arya was his first test subject ... he was propably freaked out and decided whatever this shit is, he will have none of it and that dark girl should just go.

I wonder if a book, even one bound in human skin (absolute guess on my part, but if the book comes from the Dreadfort or from Harrenhall I think it's at least plausible), could be used in lieu of blood. Unless there is blood in the ink, as well? Also plausible. Hmmmm, make paper out of pulped weirwood and that could make for something as potent as VS, in its way.

 

 

[hiemal]

On 4/23/2017 at 5:11 PM, BoltonsBastard said:

Recently I came up with a good theory for this.  

 

What if Tywin and Roose were already in communication before Roose took Harrenhall? Maybe Tywin had planned for Roose to take Harrenhall all along, which is why he left practically no one of importance in charge of it by the time Roose was due to arrive. So Tywin wrote a message in the book for Roose, and had told Roose which book and page to view the message, in which he finalized the deal for Roose to Betray Robb and become Warden in the North. 

Somehow I missed this! When did Roose marry Fat Walda? In this chapter Roose,makes gloves out dead wolf pups, sends Glover and Tallheart off to die and receives a letter from his Frey wife so it's clear he well in bed with the enemy at this point. This is also not long after Robb takes the crag and Jane's maidenhead and so we hear Elmar wailing for his lost princess. In this one chapter we are seeing so many of Tywin's machinations come together that it makes sense.

 

 

[SirArthur]

6 hours ago, hiemal said:

I wonder if a book, even one bound in human skin (absolute guess on my part, but if the book comes from the Dreadfort or from Harrenhall I think it's at least plausible), could be used in lieu of blood. Unless there is blood in the ink, as well? Also plausible. Hmmmm, make paper out of pulped weirwood and that could make for something as potent as VS, in its way.

Right, I forgot about the blood part of dark arts. 

[Jon Fossoway]

I think he was reading a book about lineages, and learned for sure that Bob Baratheon's children were not Bob's. Much like Jon Arryn's did in King's Landing probably. Harrenhal probably has a good deal of old books. If this was the case, siding with the Crown augment his own weirdness as a character.

He even gives an odd treatment to Jaime when he sees him later in that same castle.

Secondly, about burning a book. Medieval times were not so keen on having many books around. Burning a book itself where books are scarse is an act of cruelty. And Roose is cruel.

[Cas Stark]

I've never seen any evidence that Roose Bolton practiced the dark arts, that seems to be one of the theories that have resulted from too much time between books.  Regardless Roose would never have let Arya out of his sight or intended to leave her with Vargo if he knew who she was.  IMO.

[The Mother of The Others]

Uhhhh, i've gone conspiracy on this before, but after seeing the passage a few times here......     it sure does sound as if it was dark and gloomy there and Roose burned a book for heat and some light.   Not his castle library property, so what does he care.   

Now throw in the winterfell library fire and you've maybe got something more sinister underway:  BASTARDRY!  The bastards' agenda.  To burn the lineage records then kill all the initial heirs to these properties, down to where people would have to look up who the obscure remaining heir is..... and now those records are gone.  So it ends.  The legit obscure heir doesn't even know it's his turn to make a claim and is stripped of his pedigree papers in any event, so if he were made aware of his rights he couldn't even make any claim now against the bastard who's already ensconsed on the seat of power.  Roose was playing the Bastardization game.   And Petyr wants something inscrutable along those lines.... for nobody to know who to name as the Stark, so that he can install whom he wants and pick up more territory in his bid to unite the continent under his control.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/9/2018 at 11:05 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

So Roose just happened to find a book about the Starks that paints them in a positive light?  They're in the middle of war and Roose searched for a book about the NK .  I'm not buying it.  What question comes to a man like that during a time like that?  Maybe there's a historical precedent for the red wedding.  How to get past the bog devils and their poison arrows.  A book about the defenses of moat Cailin.  A cook book for Walda.   Something practical.

Who said he searched for it? He could have just found it there. Where better than the library of a cursed castle to keep information about the biggest threat to the world since an Asshai'i dragon caught cold and sneezed fire uncontrollably for three weeks?

Not likely there was any historical precedent for the RW. Someone in the books would have mentioned it while talking about how awful the Freys were for doing it. "Why, they're the worst family since House Whoseywhatsit! What ever happened to them? Oh right, cursed by the gods."

A cook book for Walda? Heresy! Lady Bolton will never have to drudge in the kitchens, that's what servants and smallfolk are for. Roose is too doting and affectionate a husband to offer a callous gift that implies his wife isn't as much a lady as she should be. Their love is one for the ages. #Ralda #Woose  #4Ever #AndEver

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Uhhhh, i've gone conspiracy on this before, but after seeing the passage a few times here......     it sure does sound as if it was dark and gloomy there and Roose burned a book for heat and some light.   Not his castle library property, so what does he care.  

Coming from Roose that's plausible, if kind of a dick move. Maybe he's just a harsh critic.

 

2 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

 

Now throw in the winterfell library fire and you've maybe got something more sinister underway:  BASTARDRY!  The bastards' agenda.  To burn the lineage records then kill all the initial heirs to these properties, down to where people would have to look up who the obscure remaining heir is..... and now those records are gone.  So it ends.  The legit obscure heir doesn't even know it's his turn to make a claim and is stripped of his pedigree papers in any event, so if he were made aware of his rights he couldn't even make any claim now against the bastard who's already ensconsed on the seat of power.  Roose was playing the Bastardization game.   And Petyr wants something inscrutable along those lines.... for nobody to know who to name as the Stark, so that he can install whom he wants and pick up more territory in his bid to unite the continent under his control.

Hmmmm- I like where this is headed already! We don't get a lot about WF library- off the top of my head I think Tyrion describes a few books he's taken and the one that Septon Chayle was reading when he fell asleep. I wonder if the books he took with him to the Wall are all that remains of the Stark library (if they remain)?

[The Sunland Lord]

Ramsay wants to burn things, we just see where is coming that from. 

[Seams]

On 3/10/2018 at 11:51 PM, hiemal said:

We don't get a lot about WF library- off the top of my head I think Tyrion describes a few books he's taken and the one that Septon Chayle was reading when he fell asleep. I wonder if the books he took with him to the Wall are all that remains of the Stark library (if they remain)?

There's a passage where Bran sees Septon Chayle taking stock of the damaged items from the library (ACoK, Bran IV). It sounded as if a lot of the contents were salvageable. But there is definitely a motif in ASOIAF about destroying books, starting with the Winterfell library. And I would guess that the fire there is symbolically linked to the fire at Summerhall and to the fire at the House of the Undying at the tail end of Dany's visit.

The destruction of a book might be linked to the death of a king - Roose is committing to an alliance with the Lannisters and the murder of Robb Stark as he destroys this book. Joffrey destroys Lives of Four Kings, the book Tyrion gave him as a groom's gift, just before he dies at his wedding feast. The burning of the library at Winterfell doesn't quite match, unless you see Bran as a king who hasn't yet been recognized. On the other hand, the catspaw does not kill Bran. Maybe the library destruction is linked to the death of Ned, who is a symbolic Winter King (contrasting with the Summer King, Robert Baratheon).

I've been noodling around with Rainbow Guard stuff lately, and I think book destruction might also be linked to the death of Robar Royce, oddly enough. The Royces wear runes on their armor - a sort of text, rumored to provide protection - part of the swords / words wordplay - but one that no one knows how to read. Renly gives Robar a new suit of red armor, part of the rainbow set. Perhaps the discarding of the rune armor and replacing it with the red armor is like the destruction of a book - Robar's death is linked to the death of a king, Renly.

A related tangent: Waymar Royce did not wear rune armor when he died in the AGoT prologue, but he wore a sable cloak. A sable is a species of animal in the marten family. So GRRM may be having wordplay fun with "marten" and his surname, Martin. When Night's Watch Ranger Jaremy Rykker dies, Thoren Smallwood takes his job, his breastplate and his sable-trimmed cloak. If the symbolism about the sable and the author is correct, I think there's something in here about the relationship between the character and the storyteller, as well as a contrast between death and the immortality achieved through having one's story remembered.

The Penrose family sigil and motto are all about storytelling, and Ser Cortnay Penrose is quite fed up with the Rainbow Guard members who failed to protect Renly. He is defeated by one of Melisandre's shadow babies. If I'm on the right trail, Melisandre represents lies and destruction of history and legend (burning swords/words but not in the way Maester Aemon knows to be correct; glamoring people to make them appear to be someone they are not). Melisandre destroys storyteller Ser Cortnay and wants to write a false version of history, with Stannis as a reborn hero savior. By contrast, after years of destroying swords with trick flames to try to glorify the red god, Thoros of Myr discovers that words have a power he did not even know he possessed; the power to revive people who had been killed.

Anyway. One of the book-related vignettes I still need to analyze is Sam and Maester Aemon taking books from Castle Black to the Citadel. As we know, the books have to be given up as partial payment for Sam and Gilly's passage on the Cinnamon Wind to Oldtown (after the singer Dareon diverts the proceeds of his singing - a form of storytelling - to his own use instead of advancing the group's progress on their journey). So the books aren't destroyed, but they may not go to exactly the people Aemon and Sam had in mind when they packed them up.

Back to Roose's book destruction. A lot of the comments here focus on Roose intending to hide something by burning the book. But the description says that the pages turned in the flames, as if a ghost were reading it. If Roose does have this creepy kind of dark magic aura in some of the details surrounding him, he may be part of the set of symbols associated with Melisandre. What if he puts the book in the fire not so it can be destroyed, but so it can be "read" by a ghost? Maybe he is sending information to some version of the ghost of Harrenhal or making a sacrifice to the red god.

[hiemal]

32 minutes ago, Seams said:

There's a passage where Bran sees Septon Chayle taking stock of the damaged items from the library (ACoK, Bran IV). It sounded as if a lot of the contents were salvageable. But there is definitely a motif in ASOIAF about destroying books, starting with the Winterfell library. And I would guess that the fire there is symbolically linked to the fire at Summerhall and to the fire at the House of the Undying at the tail end of Dany's visit.

And foreshadowing the fall of Oldtown/Alexandria?

34 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

The destruction of a book might be linked to the death of a king - Roose is committing to an alliance with the Lannisters and the murder of Robb Stark as he destroys this book. Joffrey destroys Lives of Four Kings, the book Tyrion gave him as a groom's gift, just before he dies at his wedding feast. The burning of the library at Winterfell doesn't quite match, unless you see Bran as a king who hasn't yet been recognized. On the other hand, the catspaw does not kill Bran. Maybe the library destruction is linked to the death of Ned, who is a symbolic Winter King (contrasting with the Summer King, Robert Baratheon).

Or the mind of WF went before the body, like a senile old man tottering towards ruin?

38 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've been noodling around with Rainbow Guard stuff lately, and I think book destruction might also be linked to the death of Robar Royce, oddly enough. The Royces wear runes on their armor - a sort of text, rumored to provide protection - part of the swords / words wordplay - but one that no one knows how to read. Renly gives Robar a new suit of red armor, part of the rainbow set. Perhaps the discarding of the rune armor and replacing it with the red armor is like the destruction of a book - Robar's death is lined to the death of a king, Renly.

Or shunning the knowledge that they contain, forgetting what they must remember? To be forgotten is a kind of death, the flipside of the boast about living forever in songs we hear from several in the SongoIaF.

42 minutes ago, Seams said:

The Penrose family sigil and motto are all about storytelling, and Ser Cortnay Penrose is quite fed up with the Rainbow Guard members who failed to protect Renly. He is defeated by one of Melisandre's shadow babies. If I'm on the right trail, Melisandre represents lies and destruction of history and legend (burning swords/words but not in the way Maester Aemon knows to be correct; glamoring people to make them appear to be someone they are not). Melisandre destroys storyteller Ser Cortnay and wants to write a false version of history, with Stannis as a reborn hero savior. By contrast, after years of destroying swords with trick flames to try to glorify the red god, Thoros of Myr discovers that words have a power he did not even know he possessed; the power to revive people who had been killed.

 

I think you are. The tensions between history, legend, lie, and truth are evident throughout ASoIaF.

We have "bard's truth"- lies and romance and the occasional verse of Truth, maesters' histories- lies and  ignorance and the occasional sprinkle of Truth, what everybody knows- the absurd and the true and the false, and then there is prophecy- where what is True is couched in a context that it will be almost useless until after the fact. Witness number one- Melisandre.

Melisandre is a mash-up between Cassandra of the Illiad and Amelia Bedelia of the children's books series. I think this might actually be true.Cassandra=Alexandra=Alexandria=Lighthouse+Library+Fire+misinterpreting things=Melisandre? She's hardly alone, though- prophecy is intentionally obscure. 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

 

Anyway. One of the book-related vignettes I still need to analyze is Sam and Maester Aemon taking books from Castle Black to the Citadel. As we know, the books have to be given up as partial payment for Sam and Gilly's passage on the Cinnamon Wind to Oldtown (after the singer Dareon diverts the proceeds of his singing - a form of storytelling - to his own use instead of advancing the group's progress on their journey). So the books aren't destroyed, but they may not go to exactly the people Aemon and Sam had in mind when they packed them up.

I look forward to your analysis. Knowledge that survives death and then is sold instead of given as originally intended. That could very well take us

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Back to Roose's book destruction. A lot of the comments here focus on Roose intending to hide something by burning the book. But the description says that the pages turned in the flames, as if a ghost were reading it. If Roose does have this creepy kind of dark magic aura in some of the details surrounding him, he may be part of the set of symbols associated with Melisandre. What if he puts the book in the fire not so it can be destroyed, but so it can be "read" by a ghost? Maybe he is sending information to some version of the ghost of Harrenhal or making a sacrifice to the red god.

Hmmmm, or is it the "read" god?

[Seams]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

. . . The tensions between history, legend, lie, and truth are evident throughout ASoIaF.

We have "bard's truth"- lies and romance and the occasional verse of Truth, maesters' histories- lies and  ignorance and the occasional sprinkle of Truth, what everybody knows- the absurd and the true and the false, and then there is prophecy- where what is True is couched in a context that it will be almost useless until after the fact. Witness number one- Melisandre.

Melisandre is a mash-up between Cassandra of the Illiad and Amelia Bedelia of the children's books series. I think this might actually be true.Cassandra=Alexandra=Alexandria=Lighthouse+Library+Fire+misinterpreting things=Melisandre? She's hardly alone, though- prophecy is intentionally obscure.

Interesting possibility with Melisandre and the Alexandria library. Wouldn't that be something. (By the way, there is a fascinating nonfiction book called The Badass Librarians of Timbuktu that came out a couple of years ago. Saving ancient books crumbling away in trunks in the Sahara, and then saving them again from Isis invaders.)

Bards, fools and singers are apparently all related, if @Curled Finger is correct about GRRM's grounding in the Dungeons & Dragons character types. As I read TWOIAF, I came to believe that the fool/historian Mushroom was the voice we should look to for meaningful hints about what was really going on behind the narrative. And this raises an important question about singers who are killed in the books: Tyrion, Joffrey, Arya and Petyr Baelish all maim or kill a singer. But their motives vary - Tyrion and Joffrey didn't like the truths told by a couple of singers, Arya killed Dareon because he was a deserter and vow-breaker. Petyr takes a new tack, maiming Merillion when he scapegoats him; forcing him to "sing a song" dictated by Petyr - but he does not silence him.

It also interests me that Ned did not have singers come to Winterfell. I'm not sure where Sansa discovered her love of music without visiting singers, either.

I'm also thinking that Ned's execution of Gared, who had a truth to share about the white walkers, is supposed to be compared to Arya's murder of Dareon. What truth would Dareon have shared that Arya might not want people to know?

How does murdering a singer compare to burning a book?

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Hmmmm, or is it the "read" god?

I love that.

[hiemal]

12 minutes ago, Seams said:

Interesting possibility with Melisandre and the Alexandria library. Wouldn't that be something. (By the way, there is a fascinating nonfiction book called The Badass Librarians of Timbuktu that came out a couple of years ago. Saving ancient books crumbling away in trunks in the Sahara, and then saving them again from Isis invaders.)

Bards, fools and singers are apparently all related, if @Curled Finger is correct about GRRM's grounding in the Dungeons & Dragons character types. As I read TWOIAF, I came to believe that the fool/historian Mushroom was the voice we should look to for meaningful hints about what was really going on behind the narrative. And this raises an important question about singers who are killed in the books: Tyrion, Joffrey, Arya and Petyr Baelish all maim or kill a singer. But their motives vary - Tyrion and Joffrey didn't like the truths told by a couple of singers, Arya killed Dareon because he was a deserter and vow-breaker. Petyr takes a new tack, maiming Merillion when he scapegoats him; forcing him to "sing a song" dictated by Petyr - but he does not silence him.

A Bard's Truth and a Fool's Truth- we have so many examples of each. Marillion, Symon Silver-tongue, The Blue Bard, Tom O' Sevens.
Patchface, Shagwell, Dontos, Jinglebell. If Florain is the Perfect Fool, is Bael the perfect Bard? Or is there an older model?

18 minutes ago, Seams said:

How does murdering a singer compare to burning a book?

 

Depends on the song and the book, I suspect.

[Lady Topspin]

I don't think Roose was simply passing time because he was bored.  The book was a decoder for a short coded message that had a lot of things to say.  Ravens can only carry small messages due to the limitations of what they can carry.  Me thinks a coded message was sent to Roose that referenced passages in the book.  The raven mail gave the name of the book and the pages.  Words in the pages were marked.  Problem is, somebody would have had to spend time with the book before Roose got there.  But what if it's a popular volume on the Westeros Best Seller of the past and somebody with a copy of the same book sent the message telling Roose the pages he needed to look at.  That is more feasible in my opinion.  Imprecise but three very smart men like Tywin, Walder, and Roose can fill in between the text to work out the message.

[Nowy Tends]

48 minutes ago, Seams said:

It also interests me that Ned did not have singers come to Winterfell. I'm not sure where Sansa discovered her love of music without visiting singers, either.

I'm sure there is a mention of a singer who came to Winterfell and stayed there several weeks…

[Seams]

44 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I'm sure there is a mention of a singer who came to Winterfell and stayed there several weeks…

And Ned would have been born generations after that singer's visit.

[Walda]

18 hours ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

but three very smart men

You know, that chapter starts with the ravens feeding on Maester Tothmure. And its weird the way Tywin has three maesters at Harrenhal, and then when Roose is at Winterfell, he has three maesters. Not two or four.  Although here, there are no maesters, only Qyburn

Another thing that is strange is that when Qyburn produces the letter that is supposedly from Lady Walda. There is the parallell of Arya, with her eyes shining bright with unshed tears as she burns the letter uncomprehendingly, and Roose with his eyes shining bright  as he burns the book he clearly isn't reading (the room is too gloomy to start with, and his turning the pages also indicates he is distracted by thoughts not directly connected with what is written in it).

But more than that, just before 'Lady Walda's ' letter, Ser Hosteen is singing the same song as Goodwife Amabel - Tywin is coming, he is coming back, we have to make peace with the Lannisters, or we will be undone. It is only after the hunt, after the wolfcubs were skinned for gloves and after dinner, after the spiced wine, after the barley bread and boar, when the dark has fallen and the storm is rising, THAT  is when the Frey voices are raised in anger and Elmer is crying because he won't marry a princess and he has been dishonoured. It seems odd that a raven had come from the twins so much earlier and Lady Walda had not thought to mention the marriage of her King. Their talk is all of Winterfell, how Robb's home has been taken and Bran and Rickon's tarred heads have been hung at the castle gate (like Tothmures). Unlike Bolton's Frey goodbrothers, we the readers know that Ramsey had the most to do with the burnt millers boys.

Ramsey was raised in a mill, he was the get of a miller's wife. If a mill holds secrets, he would know them. And, “You know that old mill, sitting lonely on the Acorn Water? We stopped there when I was being dragged to Winterfell a captive ".

What if he had been able to send a message from that mill to his father, far away in Harrenhal? And maybe that was why the miller's wife had to die, cut down by Gelmarr while begging Theon for mercy.  Ramsey flayed the boys heads, a peculiarly Bolton thing to do. 

Also, it seems to me that Arya might not know the real reason Tothmure's head was flayed and tarred. Her reasons for why Lucan, Harra, and the steward were gone, but the cook was spared, seem poorly informed to me. They all seem to me to be quite as willing to serve Bolton as Lannister or Whent, Lucan in particular seems, if Gendry has read him right, ready to serve any master, and just concentrate on his trade. They all seem to be neutrals, and if they have something in common, its that they served at Harrenhal when Lady Whent was there, and probably know its secrets.

Qyburn, the producer of 'Lady Walda's' letter is a Brave Companion, and it is the Brave Companions that do most of the foraging around Harrenhal. They are split into four parties, with Hoat taking the largest one to the friends they knew when they fought for Lord Tywin. But Qyburn would know where the other three went.

Then, when Bolton hears the letter, he decides then to send Tallhart and Glover to Duskendale. Glover and Tallhart thought Bolton's order came from Robb, their king. Robb can't believe they would do anything as stupid and pointless as march on Duskendale. (although it wasn't pointless for Randyll Tarly, and Lord Tywin seemed strangely prescient about the whole thing too.) Edmure thought it was a great idea to get the Tallharts out of Darry, although Catelyn had some reservations. But it seems odd that he waited two days since the rider came. Why wait 48 hours? Was he waiting on a sign, or a message?

then, there is the hunt where Bolton got a chill. I'm guessing the signal or message has to do with the way rivers run, because the way the river runs is the secret that might be shared by a mill, and Darry castle, and Bolton might need to go to the dank, chill inducing autumn river to find what he was looking for.

[zionius]

Just came across explanation of GRRM:

 

[hiemal]

21 hours ago, zionius said:

Just came across explanation of GRRM:

"If something wasn't useful to him, he'd be willing to destroy it just to deny it to anyone else."

Was there ever any doubt? It does seem like a weird way to make that point, but this is GRRM....