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What do we know about septa Mordane?


Sigella

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18 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

That's not what I said. The entire level of education was of a complete different level compared to what we have in todays society.
If you want to compare the qualities of a teacher, you need to compare them to other teachers in that same society and timeframe.

It would be silly to compare a medieval priest who teaches to boys (and who never really had a proper education to teach anybody) to a modern teacher who not only needs to follow 5 years of education to even be eligible to teach, but who continuously needs to be upgrade his skills in order to comply with the increasing demand made by crazy parents who think that a teacher is here to raise their children.

In modern society, bullying teachers are most definitely not acceptable, and if my children were faced with one, I would make a very clear complaint about that to the school board. But just like a modern teacher isn't a medieval teacher, I'm not a medieval lord who would raise my children the way @Traverys describes, because those methods are in todays society not only unacceptable and abusive, but also ridiculous and illegal.

As I said before, just because something is the norm it does not mean that it is in any way acceptable. I do not see how I am being on a moral high-horse by thinking that in any era a teacher bullying her pupil is wrong. Much as the reader should not support the Lannister chevauchee of the Riverlands just because it was a standard part of Medieval military tactics.

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17 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

As I said before, just because something is the norm it does not mean that it is in any way acceptable. I do not see how I am being on a moral high-horse by thinking that in any era a teacher bullying her pupil is wrong.

Septa Mrodane didn't "bully" Arya, Most of what we see about Mordane is seen through Arya's eyes, so obviously our perspective is biased. She hates her only because she makes her do thinks that she doesn't want to do: needlework, etiquete, etc.

In the first scene we see of her, Arya herself admits that her needlework is not up to par. All Mordane says is "This will not do. This will not do at all." And Arya's reaction to that is impolitely running away in front of a royal princess. And everything Mordane does in response is menacing her to "tell her mother". I don't see how this can be considered bullying. If anything, it shows Mordane was patient and contained.

 

 

Blaming Septa Mordane for providing a bad education is completely unfair. She could not foresee that House Stark would be obliterated and the two girls would be force to fight for their lives. She was training them to be proper ladies because that was what she was supposed to do. If she could have completed Sansa's education and Joffrey had been a decent person, she would have been everything a queen is supposed to be: good-mannered, prudent, compassionate, pious, refined,... She would have been loved by nobles and commoners. It's not Mordanes fault that everything turned out how it did.

Meanwhile, Arya needed to learn at least a minimum of manners. Even if Eddard had ensured that she married a lenient husband, it was in her best interest to be able to act her part when they had guests or visited another lord. And with a girl as rebellious as Arya, someone had to play the role of the "bad cop".

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27 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

As I said before, just because something is the norm it does not mean that it is in any way acceptable. I do not see how I am being on a moral high-horse by thinking that in any era a teacher bullying her pupil is wrong. Much as the reader should not support the Lannister chevauchee of the Riverlands just because it was a standard part of Medieval military tactics.

And like I've said, these methods in current society are unacceptable, ridiculous and illegal. Thus nowadays not acceptable in any way.
I agree with you on that part.

But where you fail (in my perspective) is that you take our current moral and educational standards and use it as the standard to compare someone who lives in an entirely different culture, with other moral, educational and social standards as is.
You cannot simply compare Westerosi standards with our current West-European standards. You should compare Westerosi standards to West-European medieval standards. And then all of a sudden, Septa Mordane isn't all that bad.

And to continue on that comparison, it was a standard part of medieval military tactics. And it also is a standard part of Westerosi tactics. As despicable as it is, for the lords, this was completely normal behaviour in both your (and my) country, but also in Westeros. The best way to defeat an enemy is to remove all civilian support. How would civilians support a lord if he isn't able to protect them?

Actually, the same thing is still happening in current warfare. What happened when coalition forces attacked Iraq? They bombed all major infrastructure, large industry and yes, also military basis. Removing the possibility to keep the army fed and armed (its hard to fire bullets when there's no factory that creates them, the storage facilities have been blown to bits and there are no roads between your position and your home base).
Yes, there are differences, but the tactics and what they are meant to do, is the same, make sure that the enemies army can not function.

 

 

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Septa Mrodane didn't "bully" Arya, Most of what we see about Mordane is seen through Arya's eyes, so obviously our perspective is biased. She hates her only because she makes her do thinks that she doesn't want to do: needlework, etiquete, etc.

In the first scene we see of her, Arya herself admits that her needlework is not up to par. All Mordane says is "This will not do. This will not do at all." And Arya's reaction to that is impolitely running away in front of a royal princess. And everything Mordane does in response is menacing her to "tell her mother". I don't see how this can be considered bullying. If anything, it shows Mordane was patient and contained.

It is no wonder that Arya couldn't sew with the wrong hand. Mordane also was not unnecessarily rude and negative to Myrcella despite her sewing not being particularly great either, but instead was cooing. This demonstrates a general theme in her tuition - as long as you are one of her favourites you can hardly do anything wrong. Arya had the misfortune to be in the opposite category where there was some problem with everything she did. Almost immediately afterwards she singles Arya out for not working when nobody was.

Then all Mordane does is humiliate her in front of her sister, friends and strangers again - providing no positive or indication of how she could improve. Just negativity. It is clear how much it hurts Arya from her retort at the door - referring back to her unnecessarily harsh and counter-productive comparison of Arya to a blacksmith.

Even when Arya is not present, her name is a byword for everything that is wrong to Sansa - "when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya."

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

If she could have completed Sansa's education and Joffrey had been a decent person, she would have been everything a queen is supposed to be: good-mannered, prudent, compassionate, pious, refined,... She would have been loved by nobles and commoners. It's not Mordanes fault that everything turned out how it did.

Sansa of AGOT is naïve, priggish and shallow. Attributes that she was notably lacking in the flashbacks to earlier in her childhood and grew out of subsequently. Little coincidence that those were the years when she was most influenced by the Septa.

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Meanwhile, Arya needed to learn at least a minimum of manners. Even if Eddard had ensured that she married a lenient husband, it was in her best interest to be able to act her part when they had guests or visited another lord. And with a girl as rebellious as Arya, someone had to play the role of the "bad cop".

No, she desperately needed someone to play the good cop. Someone to tell her that she was not a failure, to show that she was loved. Instead what she had was Mordane - who compounded her self-confidence issues derived from knowing that she did not fit society's expectations with negativity heaped on negativity and legitimated the bullying of her sister & friends. As soon as someone tried to work with her and positively reinforce what she was doing well, she worked hard and was better behaved overall - unfortunately too late to avoid the crippling doubts she felt as to whether Cat would want her back.

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Mordane was a bad teacher, period. We do not need to compare her to modern teachers, just to maester Luwin teaching Bran (especially in how hard he tried to persuade him not to climb) should be enough. She did not like her job and wasn't too dutiful at it either, that much is evident: she indulged in her cups, leaving little Sansa unattended in the feast at KL (when Sandor ended up escorting her back to the castle)... that's quite telling, IMO.

While I acknowledge how harmful her influence was for both girls, I don't really blame her too much either; who knows under which circumstances she ended up being a septa... most likely it wasn't her choice. Equally, the North was not, most likely, her choice nor the teaching duties. Maybe she hated all of it but had no say about it. That might also explain her stance towards the girls: liking the one whose teaching does not necessitate much or any effort from her side while loathing the "difficult" child, the one that the teacher needs to put some thinking into how to catch their attention and put the lesson through successfully. It might also explain her affection for her wine. But all of this is basically speculation and extrapolation, as we don't have enough information for a final judgement. All in all, I don't think she was a bad person or that she acted as she did out of malice, more that she was mostly indifferent and applying the method of 'minimal effort' for her own convinience, ending up causing harm out of neglect.

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39 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

It is no wonder that Arya couldn't sew with the wrong hand. Mordane also was not unnecessarily rude and negative to Myrcella despite her sewing not being particularly great either, but instead was cooing. This demonstrates a general theme in her tuition - as long as you are one of her favourites you can hardly do anything wrong. Arya had the misfortune to be in the opposite category where there was some problem with everything she did. Almost immediately afterwards she singles Arya out for not working when nobody was.

Then all Mordane does is humiliate her in front of her sister, friends and strangers again - providing no positive or indication of how she could improve. Just negativity. It is clear how much it hurts Arya from her retort at the door - referring back to her unnecessarily harsh and counter-productive comparison of Arya to a blacksmith.

Even when Arya is not present, her name is a byword for everything that is wrong to Sansa - "when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya."

You assume a lot of things here. Mordane wasn't "rude or negative". All the criticisms of her work or behaviour were warranted. Similarly, the praises to Sansa were warranted to. Saying that Arya is "wilful" or that she "has a blacksmith's hands" (btw, both comments where not directed at Arya but at Catelyn and Sansa respectively) are very mild comments.

And if there's no "positive implication" of how she can improve, that's because Arya either ignores her or runs away.

 

39 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Sansa of AGOT is naïve, priggish and shallow.

She was thirteen.

39 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

No, she desperately needed someone to play the good cop. Someone to tell her that she was not a failure, to show that she was loved.

She had it. There was Eddard, who supported her a lot. There was Jon. There were also lots of people in the Stark household. Arya had a very happy childhood, and frankly, she even was a little spoiled. Septa Mordane (and somedays Catelyn) were the only ones who played the "bad cop" to her.

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26 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Mordane was a bad teacher, period. We do not need to compare her to modern teachers, just to maester Luwin teaching Bran (especially in how hard he tried to persuade him not to climb) should be enough. She did not like her job and wasn't too dutiful at it either, that much is evident: she indulged in her cups, leaving little Sansa unattended in the feast at KL (when Sandor ended up escorting her back to the castle)... that's quite telling, IMO.

While I acknowledge how harmful her influence was for both girls, I don't really blame her too much either; who knows under which circumstances she ended up being a septa... most likely it wasn't her choice. Equally, the North was not, most likely, her choice nor the teaching duties. Maybe she hated all of it but had no say about it. That might also explain her stance towards the girls: liking the one whose teaching does not necessitate much or any effort from her side while loathing the "difficult" child, the one that the teacher needs to put some thinking into how to catch their attention and put the lesson through successfully. It might also explain her affection for her wine. But all of this is basically speculation and extrapolation, as we don't have enough information for a final judgement. All in all, I don't think she was a bad person or that she acted as she did out of malice, more that she was mostly indifferent and applying the method of 'minimal effort' for her own convinience, ending up causing harm out of neglect.

I think that you are wrong in that septa Mordane had a negative impact on either Sansa or Arya. In both cases she did what she was supposed to do, make them ready for an adult life as a highborn lady with real responsibilities and while Mordane provided honesty to Arya on what she needed to improve, instead of flatter, maester Luwin tried to scare a little boy like Bran so badly that he would not dare to do something which he loved to do. I don't see how Luwin holds a high ground on the septa here. And given how different the girls turned out I dare say that this outcome had more to do with their personalities and the choices they themselves made as opposed to the septa.

Like you yourself said there is little ground to make a final judgement but everything points in that Mordane was conscious of her duty to make the two Stark girls ready for a life in ppwer at the top of the feudal pyramid with the expectations that would come on a noble woman. And that it was entirely in accordance with the instructions she had been given by Lord and Lady Stark.

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3 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that you are wrong in that septa Mordane had a negative impact on either Sansa or Arya. In both cases she did what she was supposed to do, make them ready for an adult life as a highborn lady with real responsibilities and while Mordane provided honesty to Arya on what she needed to improve, instead of flatter, maester Luwin tried to scare a little boy like Bran so badly that he would not dare to do something which he loved to do. I don't see how Luwin holds a high ground on the septa here. And given how different the girls turned out I dare say that this outcome had more to do with their personalities and the choices they themselves made as opposed to the septa.

Just wanted to say that I absolutely disagree with you, especially on the bolded, but I'm sorry to say I won't be able to debate about it. Just putting it here for your consideration, I very much doubt that an answer of the line "it's not your place to question your lord father's thinking" is doing anything remotely positive to prepare Sansa for an adult life as a highborn lady. As for Arya's internalized feeling of failure at being a lady, it doesn't even need discussion, IMO. I'm not saying that the septa did these things on purpose, just that she was a very bad teacher.

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11 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Just wanted to say that I absolutely disagree with you, especially on the bolded, but I'm sorry to say I won't be able to debate about it. Just putting it here for your consideration, I very much doubt that an answer of the line "it's not your place to question your lord father's thinking" is doing anything remotely positive to prepare Sansa for an adult life as a highborn lady. As for Arya's internalized feeling of failure at being a lady, it doesn't even need discussion, IMO. I'm not saying that the septa did these things on purpose, just that she was a very bad teacher.

I am very sorry to hear that you don't want to debate it, but if that's your wish there's little I can do about it. I will say that while I am aboslutely open to that Mordane is not flawless, I've yet to see the solid case of placing all this blame on her.

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1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said:

I am very sorry to hear that you don't want to debate it, but if that's your wish there's little I can do about it. I will say that while I am aboslutely open to that Mordane is not flawless, I've yet to see the solid case of placing all this blame on her.

Oh, I would very much like to debate it, if I could - it's just that my free time ends in about a quarter and I don't know when I'll be here again...

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17 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Just wanted to say that I absolutely disagree with you, especially on the bolded, but I'm sorry to say I won't be able to debate about it. Just putting it here for your consideration, I very much doubt that an answer of the line "it's not your place to question your lord father's thinking" is doing anything remotely positive to prepare Sansa for an adult life as a highborn lady. As for Arya's internalized feeling of failure at being a lady, it doesn't even need discussion, IMO. I'm not saying that the septa did these things on purpose, just that she was a very bad teacher.

The bolded: it was, actually.

dont question your lord father = dont question your lord husband

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6 minutes ago, Sigella said:

The bolded: it was, actually.

dont question your lord father = dont question your lord husband

That's actually infantilization, the opposite of adult. And it's hardly useful to anyone -especially to Sansa- as Sansa's ows story showcases, as well as the various exambles of successful ladies in the books imply.

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30 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Oh, I would very much like to debate it, if I could - it's just that my free time ends in about a quarter and I don't know when I'll be here again...

Well, we get notifications when we are quoted so if you come back with a reply in a few days, its really not a problem. Take whatever time you need or want.

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

She was thirteen.

Eleven, actually.

22 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

That's actually infantilization, the opposite of adult. And it's hardly useful to anyone -especially to Sansa- as Sansa's ows story showcases, as well as the various exambles of successful ladies in the books imply.

She's being prepared for what Westerosi patriarchy conceives of as the role of an adult woman:  to do whatever the male authority figure in her life tells her to do.

Which is certainly unhelpful, as the story shows, but that has nothing to do with Mordane personally.  That's how Ned and Catelyn want her to be raised (which strikes readers as odd based on their personalities, but there you are).

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You assume a lot of things here. Mordane wasn't "rude or negative". All the criticisms of her work or behaviour were warranted. Similarly, the praises to Sansa were warranted to. Saying that Arya is "wilful" or that she "has a blacksmith's hands" (btw, both comments where not directed at Arya but at Catelyn and Sansa respectively) are very mild comments.

And if there's no "positive implication" of how she can improve, that's because Arya either ignores her or runs away.

Can you find anything positive Mordane has to say about Arya? If she was not incredibly negative then there must have been at least one thing praiseworthy about an intelligent and caring girl.

Making comments like that in the earshot of someone suffering from self-confidence issues is obviously a bad idea. Especially when it encourages the bullying of Jeyne and others.

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

She was thirteen.

And Arya is nine, but apparently deserves nothing but criticism. Thankfully Sansa was caught early enough not to turn into such an awful person as she promised to be. Quite something when being around Cersei, Joffrey and Littlefinger makes you a better person.

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

She had it. There was Eddard, who supported her a lot. There was Jon. There were also lots of people in the Stark household. Arya had a very happy childhood, and frankly, she even was a little spoiled. Septa Mordane (and somedays Catelyn) were the only ones who played the "bad cop" to her.

Eddard did help a lot when he became more involved in her life. Jon always did but lacked power - his influence is acknowledged by Arya when she knows he would be pleased to see her again. The household at Winterfell were supportive but not much good to persuade her she was not a failure as a noblewoman.

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that you are wrong in that septa Mordane had a negative impact on either Sansa or Arya. In both cases she did what she was supposed to do, make them ready for an adult life as a highborn lady with real responsibilities and while Mordane provided honesty to Arya on what she needed to improve, instead of flatter, maester Luwin tried to scare a little boy like Bran so badly that he would not dare to do something which he loved to do. I don't see how Luwin holds a high ground on the septa here. And given how different the girls turned out I dare say that this outcome had more to do with their personalities and the choices they themselves made as opposed to the septa.

Like you yourself said there is little ground to make a final judgement but everything points in that Mordane was conscious of her duty to make the two Stark girls ready for a life in ppwer at the top of the feudal pyramid with the expectations that would come on a noble woman. And that it was entirely in accordance with the instructions she had been given by Lord and Lady Stark.

Agreed. The goal was to prepare for life as a highborn lady who had duties but who would be protected from most kinds of unpleasantness. That's why the groom putting a cloak on the bride's shoulders is the symbol of marriage in Westeros. Here's an excerpt showing the mindset with which Catelyn was raised, starting with Brienne, as Edmure's soldiers depart to engage the Lannister forces:

What shall we do now my lady?

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father send him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

(ACoK, Catelyn VI)

And a page later:

"Would that there were five of me, one for each child, so I might keep them all safe."

"And who would keep you safe, my lady?"

Her smile was wan and tired. "Why, the men of my House. Or so my lady mother taught me. My lord father, my brother, my uncle, my husband, they will keep me safe . . . but while they are away from me, I suppose you must fill their place, Brienne."

So Septa Mordane's remark was not compromising Sansa or Arya's ability to function as a highborn lady with a future as a good match for a highborn lord; it was a reflection of the prevailing thinking about how to instill a sense of duty in a civilized young woman.

Having said all that, the author clearly intends that we see the irony in these social expectations. Catelyn's conversation is with Brienne, who is not like any other highborn lady in the books, with the possible exception of Arya. In this same chapter, Brienne says she would feel safer if she could wear armor and fight instead of waiting helplessly. And Catelyn is obviously not kept safe by her husband and brother and son, even after she negotiates terms with Walder Frey and pays attention to the details of guest right. She teams up with the direwolf Summer and takes a grave wound to protect Bran. She makes the dangerous journey to King's Landing. She takes Tyrion prisoner. She may be doing her duty, as she sees it, to protect her family, but she is not passive and sheltered, even though she may see herself that way or prefer that her life had taken such a course.

My suspicion is that Septa Mordane was put in a similar position: many of the comments here seem to share the suspicion that she has a backstory that hides some kind of loss or fall from grace. If she had to become a Septa out of necessity, what was her identity before she took the position at Winterfell? Who didn't keep her safe? Or what kind of risk did she take that put her in the position of Septa instead of the lady of a noble house?

In favor of Septa Mordane's role in the subversive liberation of Sansa and Arya (and Jeyne), I would note that sewing is a huge metaphor throughout the books. (That's why I chose Seams for my username.) I suspect that teaching the girls to sew is a symbolic way of teaching them to take power. That's why Jon and Arya ironically choose the name Needle for Arya's sword - sewing is a metaphor for holding the realm together; people who do needlework are destined for leadership roles. GRRM loves to surprise readers with unexpected twists, and the appearance of a Stern (!) and passive Septa Mordane is probably one of the things he has set up so he can surprise us later with her secret role in helping the girls to be badasses (as their mother also becomes after she has been betrayed by the Freys and Boltons).

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15 minutes ago, Seams said:

My suspicion is that Septa Mordane was put in a similar position: many of the comments here seem to share the suspicion that she has a backstory that hides some kind of loss or fall from grace. If she had to become a Septa out of necessity, what was her identity before she took the position at Winterfell? Who didn't keep her safe? Or what kind of risk did she take that put her in the position of Septa instead of the lady of a noble house?

I don't think there's anything in the text that suggests she has a tragic backstory.  She's a fuddy-duddy authority figure, with no particular knowledge of politics or anything (indeed, assuming she believes what she's teaching, which there's no reason to doubt, she's as unschooled as her pupils).

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1 minute ago, Colonel Green said:

I don't think there's anything in the text that suggests she has a tragic backstory.  She's a fuddy-duddy authority figure, with no particular knowledge of politics or anything (indeed, assuming she believes what she's teaching, which there's no reason to doubt, she's as unschooled as her pupils).

So why would you think that Eddard and Catelyn put Mordane to tutor their daughters?

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8 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

So why would you think that Eddard and Catelyn put Mordane to tutor their daughters?

Because Mordane is teaching the girls exactly what she's supposed to.

Even if Ned and Catelyn wanted their daughters to have more of a political education, that's not something that would be entrusted to a septa; Septa Mordane's responsibilities seem to pertain to the so-called womanly arts (which apparently included teaching Sansa music and poetry, though the woman we meet on-page doesn't seem particularly musical or poetical).  But the evidence on-page doesn't really support the contention that Ned and Catelyn wanted the girls to have a political education, beyond things like heraldry, because, well, they didn't get one.  They wanted two well-behaved girls who would do whatever their parents said, marry well, and then do whatever their husbands said.

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