What do we know about septa Mordane?

[Lion of the West]

Just now, Colonel Green said:

Because Mordane is teaching the girls exactly what she's supposed to.

Even if Ned and Catelyn wanted their daughters to have more of a political education, that's not something that would be entrusted to a septa; Septa Mordane's responsibilities seem to pertain to the so-called womanly arts (which apparently included teaching Sansa music and poetry, though the woman we meet on-page doesn't seem particularly musical or poetical).  But the evidence on-page doesn't really support the contention that Ned and Catelyn wanted the girls to have a political education, beyond things like heraldry, because, well, they didn't get one.  They wanted two well-behaved girls who would do whatever their parents said, marry well, and then do whatever their husbands said.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Because Mordane is teaching the girls exactly what she's supposed to.

Even if Ned and Catelyn wanted their daughters to have more of a political education, that's not something that would be entrusted to a septa; Septa Mordane's responsibilities seem to pertain to the so-called womanly arts (which apparently included teaching Sansa music and poetry, though the woman we meet on-page doesn't seem particularly musical or poetical).  But the evidence on-page doesn't really support the contention that Ned and Catelyn wanted the girls to have a political education, beyond things like heraldry, because, well, they didn't get one.  They wanted two well-behaved girls who would do whatever their parents said, marry well, and then do whatever their husbands said.

I agree with this. She wasn't really a teacher (Luwin taught sums and heraldry) as much as a gouvernant*.

(*not sure of the correct english here, but in old times-books noble ladies always have gouvernants who teach etiquette, sewing, piano, painting and stuff like that (the soft sciences :p), and in swedish its called "guvernant", probably borrowed from french)

[Colonel Green]

Just now, Sigella said:

I agree with this. She wasn't really a teacher (Luwin taught sums and heraldry) as much as a gouvernant*.

(*not sure of the correct english here, but in old times-books noble ladies always have gouvernants who teach etiquette, sewing, piano, painting and stuff like that (the soft sciences :p), and in swedish its called "guvernant", probably borrowed from french)

"Governess" would be the English term.

[Daena the Defiant]

7 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Because Mordane is teaching the girls exactly what she's supposed to.

Even if Ned and Catelyn wanted their daughters to have more of a political education, that's not something that would be entrusted to a septa; Septa Mordane's responsibilities seem to pertain to the so-called womanly arts (which apparently included teaching Sansa music and poetry, though the woman we meet on-page doesn't seem particularly musical or poetical).  But the evidence on-page doesn't really support the contention that Ned and Catelyn wanted the girls to have a political education, beyond things like heraldry, because, well, they didn't get one.  They wanted two well-behaved girls who would do whatever their parents said, marry well, and then do whatever their husbands said.

Emphasis added, because we have know that Ned didn't even want to Sansa to observe him holding court when he was filling the throne as Hand if the subject matter was important. He was actually annoyed that Septa Mordane brought Sansa to observe on a day when the subject matters were actually pretty serious, and he thought it would be best that she was there on a day where one farmer was discussing 'border stones.'

Here's the quote:

From his vantage point atop the throne, he could see men slipping out the door at the far end of the hall. Hares going to ground, he supposed … or rats off to nibble the queen's cheese. He caught a glimpse of Septa Mordane in the gallery, with his daughter Sansa beside her. Ned felt a flash of anger; this was no place for a girl. But the septa could not have known that today's court would be anything but the usual tedious business of hearing petitions, settling disputes between rival holdfasts, and adjudicating the placement of boundary stones.

The fact that this is the same man who hired a foreign swordsman to actually train his rebellious, disobedient daughter is certainly perplexing, for sure. It's also odd coming from Catelyn who was raised as her father's heir until Edmure was born, and was at his shoulder during muchg of his governing business. It's all amazingly perplexing since the both of them know that any daughter of theirs would be fully expected to run a castle or fief in a regency capacity should their husbands be away or predecease them. 

Furthermore, Septa Mordane was also teaching Sansa and Arya fundamental household management, which Sansa was not so great at, and Arya evidently was,

However, Sansa was able to survive as a political hostage at a hostile court because she was able to exude all the graceful courtesies that were instilled in her by Septa Mordane, which obviously shows that Septa Mordane was able teach Sansa, at least, what she was expected to.

Whereas, Arya nearly got herself killed because she, being sulky, impatient and ill-behaved (also younger, it should be noted), unable to do the same. 

 

[Colonel Green]

15 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Furthermore, Septa Mordane was also teaching Sansa and Arya fundamental household management, which Sansa was not so great at, and Arya evidently was,

I always figured Luwin or Vayon Poole handled that stuff, since that would be more their department than Mordane's.

[Sigella]

13 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

"Governess" would be the English term.

Thank you, now I know

[Sigella]

17 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

That's actually infantilization, the opposite of adult. And it's hardly useful to anyone -especially to Sansa- as Sansa's ows story showcases, as well as the various exambles of successful ladies in the books imply.

Not saying it was useful for Sansa, but its still useful in the terms of her not becoming a wilful wife, which would be catastrophic if her marriage was politically important to her House. 

[Traverys]

Lots of great posts. The contextual evidence provided by some was a great addition and wanted to say thanks to @Ser Walter of AShwood, @Daena the Defiant, and @Seams for that.

No doubt, maester's go through a much more rigorous and comprehensive education than septas, and I don't recall reading about any males whose education was entrusted to a septon. I thought the comments about how Septa's were essentially training young women to be obedient to their father's, husband's, and other male relative particularly on point. Of course, they're taught other kinds of things but I think it really all boils down to making them as agreeable, attractive, and courteous as possible. Not to mention the Faith of the Seven emphasizes gender roles and hierarchy. What's most interesting to me is inquiring about how common it was for northern lords to have a septa educate their daughters. What were the alternatives to their daughter's if they weren't comfortable with someone of a different faith? Likely just female relatives.

Though we've already strayed from the original topic quite a bit, I thought I'd ask if we know of any examples where a woman was educated by a maester? The only person who comes to mind is Shireen, and we know she is a bright young girl (emphasized even more so by the wonderful actress in the show). It's almost a little odd to think about Stannis allowing a daughter to receive a "man's education," but she is indeed his heir. This compares her to Catelyn, who, as mentioned, was also raised as heir until Edmund was born. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

I thought I'd ask if we know of any examples where a woman was educated by a maester?

If the speculation is correct about Sarella = Alleras, that may be the best or only known example of a woman being educated by a maester. And she is acquiring the education through subterfuge.

[Philokles]

Arya recalls a couple of times when Luwin taught her about Braavosi history, but there is no indication as to how formal a lesson it was.

[Sigella]

On 2017-04-28 at 10:34 PM, Traverys said:

Lots of great posts. The contextual evidence provided by some was a great addition and wanted to say thanks to @Ser Walter of AShwood, @Daena the Defiant, and @Seams for that.

No doubt, maester's go through a much more rigorous and comprehensive education than septas, and I don't recall reading about any males whose education was entrusted to a septon. I thought the comments about how Septa's were essentially training young women to be obedient to their father's, husband's, and other male relative particularly on point. Of course, they're taught other kinds of things but I think it really all boils down to making them as agreeable, attractive, and courteous as possible. Not to mention the Faith of the Seven emphasizes gender roles and hierarchy. What's most interesting to me is inquiring about how common it was for northern lords to have a septa educate their daughters. What were the alternatives to their daughter's if they weren't comfortable with someone of a different faith? Likely just female relatives.

Though we've already strayed from the original topic quite a bit, I thought I'd ask if we know of any examples where a woman was educated by a maester? The only person who comes to mind is Shireen, and we know she is a bright young girl (emphasized even more so by the wonderful actress in the show). It's almost a little odd to think about Stannis allowing a daughter to receive a "man's education," but she is indeed his heir. This compares her to Catelyn, who, as mentioned, was also raised as heir until Edmund was born. 

Shireen is a good example, although her lack of a septa might be explained by her mothers' fanaticism.

On 2017-04-28 at 11:54 PM, Horse of Kent said:

Arya recalls a couple of times when Luwin taught her about Braavosi history, but there is no indication as to how formal a lesson it was.

If we have both Arya and Shireen being taught by masters it might be that a septa carries the role of governess, and only teaches "the womanly arts".

Also: Dany III DwD: "I never had a maester growing up" - Dany to Quentyn 

[Traverys]

I think governess is likely an appropriate parallel to a septa. Here are a couple of quotes I thought would contribute:
 

Quote

 

It was not often that the septa was privileged to instruct a royal princess in the womanly arts, as she had said when the queen brought Myrcella to join them.

Martin, George R.R.. A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 64). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Quote

 

It wasn’t fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household. Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward.

Martin, George R.R.. A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 66). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

It's interesting that it includes that they were being taught "figures." I know the lady of a house had a duty to manage the household (with help of stewards and the like), but being taught what I assume is basic arithmetic to me seems like going beyond the scope of womanly arts. And we don't necessarily know what the septas were responsible for teaching, leaving open the possibility of another teacher (parent, maester, etc.). I'm sure there's a sarcastic joke to made about how these things were taught to the girls. "A lady wife has four balls to attend at the end of the week, three new gowns, and agrees to give her sister one to keep. How many gowns must she make by the end of the week?"

Rhaenyra could also be an example of a woman who was educated by a maester, considering she was Viserys I chosen heir. Though I'm not positive Targaryens held the same traditions in regards to the education of the children, specifically daughters.

Edit:

Another addition.
 

Quote

 

Sansa would have known who he was, and the fat one too, but Arya had never taken much interest in titles and sigils. Whenever Septa Mordane had gone on about the history of this house and that house, she was inclined to drift and dream and wonder when the lesson would be done.

Martin, George R.R.. A Clash of Kings: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Two (pp. 345-346). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.