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Theon, Archery and Redemption?


House Beaudreau

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6 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Theon needs no redemption.  He was a Stark hostage and he was right to take Winterfell from them.  He could really perform a valuable service to the night watch by putting an arrow through Ghost's heart to keep Jon from having any chance of coming back. 

Which is why everyone considers him practically a kinslayer for doing so, right? And murdering children to cover up for your failure is also cool?

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Okay, perhaps Barbrey Dustin sincerely thinks that the destruction and deaths of innocent people at Winterfell were justified by the fact that Theon was a hostage and that Ghost needs an arrow through his throat. Or it's a joke meant to be upsetting. Whatever.

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I originally considered Theon a vain fool.  He was a hostage and Ned would have killed him if necessary to keep Balon in line.  Westerosi politics demands it.  All of his antics in Winterfell seemed to me like this internal struggle between his wanting to be both Ironborn and stark and mucking it up royally because of his foolishness.  His descent into Reek and his torture were powerful and disturbing.  I doubt he will ever be an archer again, not just because of the maiming of his hands, but because Theon the archer no longer exists.  As Theon remembers his name (if Stannis allows him to live that long) he will develop into something other than the self-centered douche we meet in AGoT.

As far as being considered a turncloak and kinslayer, what else can we expect to hear from the Northmen, hereditary enemies of the Ironborn?  Neither is technically true. This is not said to excuse his actions which are deplorable (even by Westerosi standards and that is setting the bar pretty low).  He has killed none of his kin, and he was sent by his father (and lawful lord) to attack the North.  That he overreached and attempted to hold Winterfell was stupid, but not really a betrayal.

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I think he lost to many digits to be effective again. He mentions probably being able to hold a sword (surely some dagger at least) but I really can't see the reloading a bow part. It does seem his only way to be relevant while fighting however so I'm not sure.

As to his pre-mutilation skills, I'm pretty sure Anguy won the tourney for Ned or was 2nd to Jbaahar xho. If that's the case it's fair to say Theon was throughly outclassed. 

Fletcher Dick certainly enhanced (probably lied) about his history but I have no doubt the skill was outrageous. He talks about he could possibly take down 100 men in the right position and I don't see him lying to the half-hand. That's absolutely ridiculous no way Theon practiced for that 

 But side note there are actually world class archers with no arms that use their toes and legs (look it up)

 

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For what it's worth, you need considerable strength to use a medieval longbow (they were much bigger, heavier weapons than later 'target bows'). Reek certainly doesn't have the necessary strength right now and I can't imagine him bulking out any time soon!

Though of course Theon's bow could always be a different sort of weapon, or GRRM could always not know / care about the details of real historical archery ; )

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4 hours ago, Ser Something said:

GRRM could always not know / care about the details of real historical archery

If his knowledge of archery goes like his knowledge of  swords, we might be up for a surprise :-)

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12 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, perhaps Barbrey Dustin sincerely thinks that the destruction and deaths of innocent people at Winterfell were justified by the fact that Theon was a hostage and that Ghost needs an arrow through his throat. Or it's a joke meant to be upsetting. Whatever.

Entirely possible, or that she speaks from a position based on likes and dislikes of certain characters. Its not the first time that people have held minority views or seen unlikely people as their favorites. The books are well-written and characters very well developed and characterized. As such its not to be a surprise that different people will think different things about different characters.

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13 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, perhaps Barbrey Dustin sincerely thinks that the destruction and deaths of innocent people at Winterfell were justified

Theon pretty much didn't smash a single cup at Winterfell. He does not need redemption for Ramsay's actions, but his own, especially his responsibility in the murder of the miller's wife and kids, murder of the ironborn who witnessed this and the poor guy he blamed for the latter and awful stuff like that (all my examples are of course also Ramsay's fault I just realize, but also Theon's). Definitely not the destruction of Winterfell, which he was a victim of himself.

Re: Kinslayer. I mean Theon kind of agrees and keeps insisting that  he is not a kinslayer, because it wasn't Bran and Rickon he slew (only in his head, not out loud of course). Also consider the idea that Theon should give Arya away in marriage as the closest thing to living kin. It is not so black and white. He is family to the Starks in a way. This puts him in the worst situation. Taking Winterfell was definitely a mistake that he could have avoided. He btw doesn't do that because he considers the Starks enemies and doesn't care about them. On the contrary he does it because he wants to go "home" (second try) and be the beloved lord of Winterfell. He would have said his motivation was proving his worth to his father, but why Winterfell specifically? It was crazy and desperate more than evil. It definitely was a mistake!

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This is not said to excuse his actions which are deplorable (even by Westerosi standards and that is setting the bar pretty low).

For Westerosi standarts specifically? Come on. It sets him somewhere arguably between the Hound (who was just following orders when brutally slaying innocent kids) and Jaime ... who I have little excuse for, but even Jamie is a very sympathetic character and hardly deplorable BY WESTEROSI STANDARDS,

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6 hours ago, ftheking said:

 

Theon pretty much didn't smash a single cup at Winterfell. He does not need redemption for Ramsay's actions, but his own, especially his responsibility in the murder of the miller's wife and kids, murder of the ironborn who witnessed this and the poor guy he blamed for the latter and awful stuff like that (all my examples are of course also Ramsay's fault I just realize, but also Theon's). Definitely not the destruction of Winterfell, which he was a victim of himself.

Re: Kinslayer. I mean Theon kind of agrees and keeps insisting that  he is not a kinslayer, because it wasn't Bran and Rickon he slew (only in his head, not out loud of course). Also consider the idea that Theon should give Arya away in marriage as the closest thing to living kin. It is not so black and white. He is family to the Starks in a way. This puts him in the worst situation. Taking Winterfell was definitely a mistake that he could have avoided. He btw doesn't do that because he considers the Starks enemies and doesn't care about them. On the contrary he does it because he wants to go "home" (second try) and be the beloved lord of Winterfell. He would have said his motivation was proving his worth to his father, but why Winterfell specifically? It was crazy and desperate more than evil. It definitely was a mistake!

For Westerosi standarts specifically? Come on. It sets him somewhere arguably between the Hound (who was just following orders when brutally slaying innocent kids) and Jaime ... who I have little excuse for, but even Jamie is a very sympathetic character and hardly deplorable BY WESTEROSI STANDARDS,

An excellent post.

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Yes, those are great points.

I'm sorry. My overreaction was similar to what I would have thought if someone had celebrated Lady's death because of Stark hate. It's fiction, and yes, I hope people give their opinions. 

Lets just say a lot of bad things happened because of Theron's mistakes, adolescent callowness, need perspective, and evil counsel.

Theon could bulk up a lot given time. Mentally he already is breaking good, but he has a long way to go.

I don't recall which fingers Theon still has. Does anyone know how many fingers for a bow or crossbow? I believe Theon could adapt more than he knows yet, but he may not have access to an Occupational Therapist! However, there are a lot of Iron Born who know a thing or two about missing fingers because of their axe throwing games! Maybe they do have smaller bows for hunting, isn't the longbow specialized for war??and meant for standing?

The shorter version could be that maybe Theon will be sacrificed for some purpose. My wishful thinking is that he will recover more than he has, from his nightmarish descent. Moat Caillin and the flaying of his countrymen was pretty far down in the Reek hole, but he was dressed up. Martin does write horror, however.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Yes, those are great points.

I'm sorry. My overreaction was similar to what I would have thought if someone had celebrated Lady's death because of Stark hate. It's fiction, and yes, I hope people give their opinions. 

Lets just say a lot of bad things happened because of Theron's mistakes, adolescent callowness, need perspective, and evil counsel.

Theon could bulk up a lot given time. Mentally he already is breaking good, but he has a long way to go.

I don't recall which fingers Theon still has. Does anyone know how many fingers for a bow or crossbow? I believe Theon could adapt more than he knows yet, but he may not have access to an Occupational Therapist! However, there are a lot of Iron Born who know a thing or two about missing fingers because of their axe throwing games! Maybe they do have smaller bows for hunting, isn't the longbow specialized for war??and meant for standing?

The shorter version could be that maybe Theon will be sacrificed for some purpose. My wishful thinking is that he will recover more than he has, from his nightmarish descent. Moat Caillin and the flaying of his countrymen was pretty far down in the Reek hole, but he was dressed up. Martin does write horror, however.

 

 

How do you react when people want to see a dragon get his by an arrow, like what the O/P expressed?  It turns me off.  So it really does depend on which you like.   It depends on who you like as to how you react to these statements.  I love the dragons and I cannot understand how anyone would want harm to come to them.  Yet, I do not feel the same sympathy for the direwolves.  That ofcourse is an extension of my attitude towards the main characters.  I am a big time fan of Dany but I dislike Jon, Arya, and Sansa.  Those feelings extend towards the dragons and towards the direwolves.

You know how some people wish for a dance of the dragons?  I feel the opposite.  I wish for a dance of the direwolves.  

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You also want to make widows? Okay. 

The dragons may end up being used like a nuke. Dragons are natural and dangerous in this story. I like dragons too. Especially Pernese ones:) If they end up just being out of control rampaging weapons,  it might take a a lucky shot or even Dany herself to stop it. Or they may be used as mankinds best hope. It depends on how these amazing fantasy animals are used, and I don't think that is known. I have wondered if  Drogon was going to be Dany's Nissa Nissa.

in this story, Ghost and Lady are not portrayed as worthy of abuse or death. I admit to a bias towards canines as pets! I have never had a huge winged pet lizard!

It would please my sensibilities if Theon still has it in him to do something to redeem the amount of fictional degradation he has received. Although he already rescued Jeyne Poole. The author shows him to be an archer. The author also warns us that life is not a fairytale, so we will see.

 

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