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Why did the loyalists yield when Rhegar died?


Stormking902

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From what we know the battle of the Trident was pretty well even with the loyalists having a slightly bigger army by around 5k or so either side was winning untill Robert and Rhegar met face to face at the Ruby Ford and Robert struck Rhegar down with his mighty war hammer. After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare and a full army was sitting outside of Storms end just waiting there ready to replenish the loyalists army at any givin time. Wouldnt the loyalist armys commanders still continue the fight for there king? They would have to know what this defeat could mean for the Targs but yet they yield anyways? 

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28 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

From what we know the battle of the Trident was pretty well even with the loyalists having a slightly bigger army by around 5k or so either side was winning untill Robert and Rhegar met face to face at the Ruby Ford and Robert struck Rhegar down with his mighty war hammer. After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare and a full army was sitting outside of Storms end just waiting there ready to replenish the loyalists army at any givin time. Wouldnt the loyalist armys commanders still continue the fight for there king? They would have to know what this defeat could mean for the Targs but yet they yield anyways? 

3 of the four commanders were dead already, assuming that Barristan and Darry were given parts of the battle similar to Martell. So when Rhaegar dies, assuming he's with the reserves since he's the last to fall, they are more or less leaderless against an enemy who was beating them badly anyway. A rout at that point is pretty much the only thing that is going to happen.

More to the point, they weren't thinking about Aerys, his heir, and the SE army. They were thinking about how they would survive.

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8 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare

The only reason there was an army in the first place was because of Rhaegar. Why do you think Aerys was looking for Rhaegar? because no one else would fight for him, but Aerys knew they would fight for Rhaegar, is that simple.

When Rhaegar died at the Trident, those man had no reason to fight for House Targaryen anymore. The only thing left was Aerys in his madness, his second son already showing to be just like him, and Aegon was just a baby. The dinasty was over, Aerys knew it, that's why he wanted to burn the city.

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After watching Robert destroy their Prince with his war hammer all hope was lost. At that point they had to be thinking the God's were on Robert's side. The rebel's finally got their trail by combat and Robert won. If what was left of the loyalists army retreated to King's Landing Aerys would have probably burned them.

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Men in combat situations tend to be focused on their immediate circumstances, not the broader direction wars are moving in. As has been mentioned the leadership of the Loyalist army at the Trident was either dead or incapacitated, and the men had just watched their champion join that number in a brutal manner. It's not much of surprise they called it quits.

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11 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

From what we know the battle of the Trident was pretty well even with the loyalists having a slightly bigger army by around 5k or so either side was winning untill Robert and Rhegar met face to face at the Ruby Ford and Robert struck Rhegar down with his mighty war hammer. After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare and a full army was sitting outside of Storms end just waiting there ready to replenish the loyalists army at any givin time. Wouldnt the loyalist armys commanders still continue the fight for there king? They would have to know what this defeat could mean for the Targs but yet they yield anyways? 

The short answer is they didn't. While the Trident appears to turn into a collapse of Rhaegar's army after his death, we really don't know if any loyalist troops retreated in good order. We just know the rebels won the day, and Ned quickly leads his troops to King's Landing to stop retreating forces or forces from elsewhere from reinforcing their numbers there.

But King's Landing, and Aerys, did not surrender after the Trident. Aerys's lets the Lannister troops into the city thinking they will save him, only to have them turn on him. Even after the sack and Aerys's death, all loyalists don't bend the knee. It takes Ned's army traveling to Storm's End to lift the siege there and accept the surrender of the Tyrells. It takes more than nine months for the rebels on Dragonstone to surrender, and longer than that for Jon Arryn to travel to Sunspear and negotiate a peace with Dorne.

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The things is that Rhaegar's army didn't stop fighting the war after the prince died. They fled from the Trident but did so to King's Landing and from there held the city until the Lannisters could capture it for Robert. So while there were without a doubt broken men from the loyalist side after the Trident or men killed or captured the days after the battle, many thousands of them made it back to the capital to carry on the war.

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Because it was over. 

All lords siding with the monarchy in the regions held by the usurper and his dogs were defeated, the dornish soldiers are more or less scattered as all other troops from the trident, Tywin was unaligned, but unlikely due to history, to support Aerys. The crownlands would be next to be conquered, with basically no chance of defending. And now suddenly the ironborn are attacking the Reach, the one main "loyalist" player still in the game. The only front going "well" is in the Stormlands, but the siege is going to fail after the trident. Nor will Roberts castle have the same significance. 

Aerys could have retreated south, but I am doubtful the Tyrell would go the extra mile to really save the monarchy (especially since Aerys leads it). And even if it did, it would be them alone - probably not more than 80000 troops at most (remember, they took losses), maybe some scattered soldiers and maybe, maybe some donishment vs a 40000 minus losses force, and untouched Westerlands in the middle of it all (with potential for 50-60000 soldiers) and 20000-30000 ironborn. Not only will the Reach be surrounded from all sides, Doran are unlikely to send further troops, but even if he did sent 5000-10000 more, due to the death of Elia, you simply guard the passes.

Then it will be at least 100000 (maybe even as much as 120-130000) soldiers vs 80000 (at best) reachmen in a terrain not suitable for defense and surrounded, like a big bear attacked by wolves. At this point the usurper only have to stretch out to the reach houses and promise them things like land and a lord paramountship. Remember, this is an era where peaces after a while are common. The person who never surrenders is the person who fight alone. 

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17 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

From what we know the battle of the Trident was pretty well even with the loyalists having a slightly bigger army by around 5k or so either side was winning untill Robert and Rhegar met face to face at the Ruby Ford and Robert struck Rhegar down with his mighty war hammer. After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare and a full army was sitting outside of Storms end just waiting there ready to replenish the loyalists army at any givin time. Wouldnt the loyalist armys commanders still continue the fight for there king? They would have to know what this defeat could mean for the Targs but yet they yield anyways? 

The ones on the battlefield at the trident surrendered at the death of Rhaegar.  If Robert had died, the rebels on that battlefield would have surrendered too.  The battle hinged on the outcome of Rhaegar vs. Robert.  Which is why many people question Rhaegar's decision making abilities.  He was a bad commander to put the outcome of the battle into a one-one duel. 

The Targaryen loyalists as a whole did not surrender until the death of their king, Aerys.  So it is not really accurate to say that the entire loyalists surrendered at the death of a prince.  Rhaegar was just a prince.  Anyone on the Kingsguard could have taken his place.  The Targaryen loyalists forces as a whole surrendered when the Targaryen capital fell.  But we know at least three members of that force who chose to die instead of surrender and loyalists like Willem Darry and Varys remained to continue the good fight against the Usurper and his dogs.

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1 hour ago, Josette DuPres said:

The ones on the battlefield at the trident surrendered at the death of Rhaegar.  If Robert had died, the rebels on that battlefield would have surrendered too.  The battle hinged on the outcome of Rhaegar vs. Robert.  Which is why many people question Rhaegar's decision making abilities.  He was a bad commander to put the outcome of the battle into a one-one duel. 

The Targaryen loyalists as a whole did not surrender until the death of their king, Aerys.  So it is not really accurate to say that the entire loyalists surrendered at the death of a prince.  Rhaegar was just a prince.  Anyone on the Kingsguard could have taken his place.  The Targaryen loyalists forces as a whole surrendered when the Targaryen capital fell.  But we know at least three members of that force who chose to die instead of surrender and loyalists like Willem Darry and Varys remained to continue the good fight against the Usurper and his dogs.

Ah no. The odds of them coming across each other in a battle of 70K or more men are absurdly small. That said, if Robert dies, it definitely takes the wind out of the rebellion's sail. However Ned is still wanted for execution, as will Jon Arryn since he started the rebellion. They have plenty to fight for and would probably retreat behind their respective strongholds to hold out.

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On 4/22/2017 at 4:04 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

Because they had no future. They knew that Rhaegar was their future and that Aerys was mad. Their had lost the battle.

Bingo. If Rhegar had killed Robert the inverse would have likely happened.

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On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:55 PM, Stormking902 said:

From what we know the battle of the Trident was pretty well even with the loyalists having a slightly bigger army by around 5k or so either side was winning untill Robert and Rhegar met face to face at the Ruby Ford and Robert struck Rhegar down with his mighty war hammer. After Rhegars death the loyalists started to retreat but why? Aerys was still alive with another heir handy to spare and a full army was sitting outside of Storms end just waiting there ready to replenish the loyalists army at any givin time. Wouldnt the loyalist armys commanders still continue the fight for there king? They would have to know what this defeat could mean for the Targs but yet they yield anyways? 

Let's look at the Royalist tally; Rhaegar (supreme commander ) dead ,Lewyn Martell (commander of the Dornish troops )dead , Jonothor Darry (possible commander of the Riverman loyalist ) dead ,Baristan Selmy (possible commander of Stormland  loyalist ) gravely wounded . The loss of their commanders and the incentive of  getting some of Rhaegar's rubies broke down unit cohesion .

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 4:24 AM, LionoftheWest said:

The things is that Rhaegar's army didn't stop fighting the war after the prince died. They fled from the Trident but did so to King's Landing and from there held the city until the Lannisters could capture it for Robert. So while there were without a doubt broken men from the loyalist side after the Trident or men killed or captured the days after the battle, many thousands of them made it back to the capital to carry on the war.

This :agree:

The Trident was lost, but whatever remnants of the loyalist army would have headed south to the capital to carry on the fight, while the rest would have simply deserted.

Once the top leaders are dead, there is no real way to coordinate movements or mount any kind of affective strategy, so it's better to live and fight another day than throw yourself into a lost cause.

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On 23/04/2017 at 4:10 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ah no. The odds of them coming across each other in a battle of 70K or more men are absurdly small.

Not that small. Both men would have a reasonable idea where the other would be, reinforced perhaps by scouting before the battle (and of course Robert was known for leading the van). And both men wore clearly identifiable armour with a unique crest to the helm. Both would have a bodyguard that would allow them to move relatively freely around the field. If they went looking for each other, they'd have a decent chance of finding their target eventually.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

Not that small. Both men would have a reasonable idea where the other would be, reinforced perhaps by scouting before the battle (and of course Robert was known for leading the van). And both men wore clearly identifiable armour with a unique crest to the helm. Both would have a bodyguard that would allow them to move relatively freely around the field. If they went looking for each other, they'd have a decent chance of finding their target eventually.

Yea over the top armour usually helps lol

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The main reason was the domino effect. After the battle of the trident, the Iron Islands, the Freys and the Lannisters joined the fray pumping hordes of fresh troops within the rebel's army. The Targ loyalists were demotivated, most of their military leaders were dead, captured or went AWOL (ex Sir Arthur Dayne) and they were a minority at that point. There's no way you can win against a combined army of Stormlands-Vale-North-Riverlands & Westerlands

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5 hours ago, devilish said:

The main reason was the domino effect. After the battle of the trident, the Iron Islands, the Freys and the Lannisters joined the fray pumping hordes of fresh troops within the rebel's army. The Targ loyalists were demotivated, most of their military leaders were dead, captured or went AWOL (ex Sir Arthur Dayne) and they were a minority at that point. There's no way you can win against a combined army of Stormlands-Vale-North-Riverlands & Westerlands

Meh you can't really count Tywin and the Westerlands at that point. He might have made up his mind on how to align himself but no one else knew, especially the men from the Trident. Your other points are spot on though.

 

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Not that small. Both men would have a reasonable idea where the other would be, reinforced perhaps by scouting before the battle (and of course Robert was known for leading the van). And both men wore clearly identifiable armour with a unique crest to the helm. Both would have a bodyguard that would allow them to move relatively freely around the field. If they went looking for each other, they'd have a decent chance of finding their target eventually.

That's something I never really considered. Ned described Rob as what, a veritable giant, with his armor and helm on? Finding his banner and household on the field or Rhaegar's would be easier. I'd just be of the thought that it would be hard for Robert to actually get *at* Rhaegar. When I look at other prominent battles where a king (or prince) was in the front lines like Crecy, Agincourt, or Poitiers, so many people were trying to get to the king/prince to get the ransom the other leaders were nowhere near them. Duke of Alencon and Blind Jon got nowhere near the Black Prince. Henry the V got hit in the head with an axe but likewise no prominent enemies were near him as far as I can remember. King John surrendered to a fairly obscure knight after his forces routed from the rear attack. 

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