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R+L=J v.164


SFDanny

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51 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This has been speculated on for as long as I've been around, and I assume well before that. So, probably well before the show. If Jon had a Targaryen name like Aemon or Aegon it would stick out like a sore thumb. And characters might start to piece together what so many fans have, that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

That's what I'm unsure about. How can he/they prove he had another name? And if he/they can,  I don't think a name would make a difference to others. Wouldn't people assume he was named after a famous Targaryen, like Rhaegar Frey?

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16 minutes ago, Faceless User said:

That's what I'm unsure about. How can he/they prove he had another name? And if he/they can,  I don't think a name would make a difference to others. Wouldn't people assume he was named after a famous Targaryen, like Rhaegar Frey?

I'm not sure if Jon will need to prove his real name. But if he does GRRM will have some mechanism in place that allows this to happen.

Unlikely, since the Starks had just finished fighting the Targaryens in a civil war that cost Ned his father, older brother and younger sister.

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10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I think this proves my point.  A person being betrothed takes a sacred vow.  Here, GRRM said that the person can't be forced to say the words.  (Although it looks like he said this before Euron imposed a marriage on Asha while she wasn't even present, so he may have changed his mind on that one, too).  

I think you're reaching here. Where exactly do we see anyone take a sacred vow in a betrothal ceremony? Betrothals are negotiated between Houses and the Lords agree to them. The parties to be married may not even see each other before the wedding ceremony. So, no, I don't agree Robert and Lyanna took any kind of vow. In fact, over and over we are told when these pacts are negotiated without the parties involvement. I'd be very surprise to learn Lyanna, who wanted no part of this marriage, agreed to anything.

Now, when the Houses agree that is a sacred bond, but between the Houses, not the individuals. It is the duty of the Houses to go through with what they have agreed and it is a great breach for one side to void these pacts by themselves. Wars have resulted because of it. But that does not mean the individuals do not have the right to stand up and say no. George makes this very clear. Both in the SSM I posted and in the examples given in the books.

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4 hours ago, Faceless User said:

Recently I've seen many people suggesting that Jon may have a secret "Targaryen name" (I'm assuming it's a show reveal).

What I don't understand is, why? Why call him Aemon/Aegon/etc. and then keep it a secret? Does it change something if he is Aerys Targaryen instead of Jon Targaryen? :huh: Am I missing something?

Lyanna had time to extract promises from Ned, she gave her son a name, and that name isn't Jon, which is what Ned named him.

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3 hours ago, Faceless User said:

Wouldn't people assume he was named after a famous Targaryen, like Rhaegar Frey?

No.

As they chose to ignore the existence of moon-tea the Freys ran out of names to be able to differentiate between current House members. With several dozen Freys around they cannot stick to a House's set of traditional names. Unless they go the "Walder 15th" or "Walda 11th" route ...

Not using a "traditional Stark/Northman" name for Ned's bastard would be placing a big placard over the brat's head, screaming "There is something unusual about me!". Using a Targ name would be the same as the above, but ending with a "Woot!!!!!11"

:)

 

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5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think you're reaching here. Where exactly do we see anyone take a sacred vow in a betrothal ceremony? Betrothals are negotiated between Houses and the Lords agree to them. The parties to be married may not even see each other before the wedding ceremony. So, no, I don't agree Robert and Lyanna took any kind of vow. In fact, over and over we are told when these pacts are negotiated without the parties involvement. I'd be very surprise to learn Lyanna, who wanted no part of this marriage, agreed to anything.

Now, when the Houses agree that is a sacred bond, but between the Houses, not the individuals. It is the duty of the Houses to go through with what they have agreed and it is a great breach for one side to void these pacts by themselves. Wars have resulted because of it. But that does not mean the individuals do not have the right to stand up and say no. George makes this very clear. Both in the SSM I posted and in the examples given in the books.

We don't ever see a betrothal ceremony but we know they take a solemn vow from several sources.  For example, in Sansa's final chapter in ACOK, Joffrey says that when he was betrothed to Sansa, "I took a holy vow."

Robert and Lyanna swore holy vows to marry each other.   Lyanna would have needed to have been absolved of that vow prior to marrying anyone other than Robert.

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7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

We don't ever see a betrothal ceremony but we know they take a solemn vow from several sources.  For example, in Sansa's final chapter in ACOK, Joffrey says that when he was betrothed to Sansa, "I took a holy vow."

Robert and Lyanna swore holy vows to marry each other.   Lyanna would have needed to have been absolved of that vow prior to marrying anyone other than Robert.

We don't see a betrothal ceremony because we know they aren't needed. Cat is betrothed to Brandon when she is twelve and there is no ceremony, but the pact is made. Ned brings the proposal of marriage to his sister and we see nothing of any betrothal ceremony. Hoster makes the pact with the Redwynes but there isn't a ceremony with the Blackfish and Bethany. Robb accepts Catelyn's negotiation but there is no betrothal ceremony because there hasn't been anyone picked to marry him. On and on it goes. There are no betrothal ceremonies because none are needed.

What we see with Joffrey is him acting as king in his father's place who made the betrothal that bound him to honor the pact. He still has the right to say no, although that would be a betrayal of Robert's word to House Stark. Is it likewise a betrayal of House Stark's word if Lyanna refuses to go through with a marriage pact her father made? Yes. But as Martin makes clear, she has a right to do so.

This is not just some abstract discussion of marriage laws in Westeros. It has everything to do with understanding what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, and between Lyanna and her family. If, as it looks likely, that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, then she broke the pact her father made, and in the eyes of many, including I think her father, Brandon, and Ned, dishonored her House. I don't dispute any of that. But the idea she had to go through some formal breaking of a betrothal vow before she could marry someone else is without any evidence. Martin is very clear people can say no to a marriage. He also warns there may well be severe consequences for saying no. For the Blackfish it was exile from his brother and the Riverlands. For Lyanna, it likely would have been worse.

Indeed, as I've pointed out before, Dany's hopes for Daario to stop her wedding is likened to what Rhaegar did with his "northern girl." I think this tells us this is a rescue of Lyanna from an upcoming marriage she doesn't want, not a kidnapping or an elopement. Lyanna desperately wanted to say no - probably did tell her father no - and wanted someone to help her do so. I think Rhaegar helped her say no.

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58 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

We don't see a betrothal ceremony because we know they aren't needed. Cat is betrothed to Brandon when she is twelve and there is no ceremony, but the pact is made. Ned brings the proposal of marriage to his sister and we see nothing of any betrothal ceremony. Hoster makes the pact with the Redwynes but there isn't a ceremony with the Blackfish and Bethany. Robb accepts Catelyn's negotiation but there is no betrothal ceremony because there hasn't been anyone picked to marry him. On and on it goes. There are no betrothal ceremonies because none are needed.

What we see with Joffrey is him acting as king in his father's place who made the betrothal that bound him to honor the pact. He still has the right to say no, although that would be a betrayal of Robert's word to House Stark. Is it likewise a betrayal of House Stark's word if Lyanna refuses to go through with a marriage pact her father made? Yes. But as Martin makes clear, she has a right to do so.

This is not just some abstract discussion of marriage laws in Westeros. It has everything to do with understanding what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, and between Lyanna and her family. If, as it looks likely, that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, then she broke the pact her father made, and in the eyes of many, including I think her father, Brandon, and Ned, dishonored her House. I don't dispute any of that. But the idea she had to go through some formal breaking of a betrothal vow before she could marry someone else is without any evidence. Martin is very clear people can say no to a marriage. He also warns there may well be severe consequences for saying no. For the Blackfish it was exile from his brother and the Riverlands. For Lyanna, it likely would have been worse.

Indeed, as I've pointed out before, Dany's hopes for Daario to stop her wedding is likened to what Rhaegar did with his "northern girl." I think this tells us this is a rescue of Lyanna from an upcoming marriage she doesn't want, not a kidnapping or an elopement. Lyanna desperately wanted to say no - probably did tell her father no - and wanted someone to help her do so. I think Rhaegar helped her say no.

My friend, what you are saying is simply incorrect.  The High Septon does not absolve Joffrey of a vow Robert made on his behalf.  He is absolved of a vow he made personally.  

Cersei says:  "For the good of the realm, set Sansa Stark aside."

Notably, that is the same language she uses to describe what Robert would have to do to her if he wanted to marry someone else:

"How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

The High Septon then makes clear that Joffrey made promises to Sansa:

"Their crimes against the realm have freed you from any promise you might have made."

And Joffrey makes clear that he personally made a vow, in addition to any bargain Robert made on his behalf:

"I would like to heed the wishes of my people, Mother, but I took a holy vow."

I can't see any reason for the suggestion that Lyanna refused to take the betrothal vow when she was betrothed to Robert.  She may have been reluctant (based on one passing comment to Ned) but there is nothing to suggest she refused the vow.  On the contrary, it is widely accepted that there was a valid betrothal.

As to Dany's hopes that Daario would prevent her marriage, you need to take into account that (1) Dany promised to marry Hizdahr, (2) Daario could prevent that by kidnapping her, but (3) Dany says nothing about marrying Daario after the kidnapping.  What we have instead is a discussion about the fact that Dany could go through a marriage ceremony that would not be valid, rendering her children bastards (referring to Dany's desire to marry Hizdahr pursuant to Westerosi rites). 

The takeaway is not that, if Daario kidnapped her he could marry her and have trueborn children.  It is that he could kidnap her and stop the marriage to Hizdahr.  Which is exactly what Rhaegar did when he kidnapped Lyanna.  And that any children she had with Daario would then be bastards.  Just like Jon.

Finally, where do you get the idea that the Blackfish was betrothed to Bethany Redwyne but refused to go through with the wedding.  Hosted just says he had an offer from the Redwynes, he ordered Brynden to take it, and Brynden refused.  I take that to mean that Brynden refused to take the betrothal vow.  Not that Hoster betrothed him and he refused to carry out the marriage.

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think this tells us this is a rescue of Lyanna from an upcoming marriage she doesn't want, not a kidnapping or an elopement. Lyanna desperately wanted to say no - probably did tell her father no - and wanted someone to help her do so. I think Rhaegar helped her say no.

This doesn't rule out a staged kidnapping, though. You know, the "putting the girl's honour above his own" kind. If she is "kidnapped", then it is Rhaegar who gets all the blame; it even protects the Stark honour because they are not breaking their word to Robert.

Elsewhere, I mentioned a parallel that I might have brought up here, already, but I really don't remember any more what I said where:

There is a very interesting parallel, or perhaps inspiration? in G.G.Kay's A Song for Arbonne. There is a staged abduction to cover up for a secret love affair, of a lady married for duty, and results in the conception of a child. The lady dies in childbirth, the child is hidden and grows up in ignorance of her heritage as the sole remaining heir of two powerful houses. - Need I say that the secrecy involves a deathbed promise? :D

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4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

My friend, what you are saying is simply incorrect.  The High Septon does not absolve Joffrey of a vow Robert made on his behalf.  He is absolved of a vow he made personally.  

Cersei says:  "For the good of the realm, set Sansa Stark aside."

Notably, that is the same language she uses to describe what Robert would have to do to her if he wanted to marry someone else:

"How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

The High Septon then makes clear that Joffrey made promises to Sansa:

"Their crimes against the realm have freed you from any promise you might have made."

And Joffrey makes clear that he personally made a vow, in addition to any bargain Robert made on his behalf:

"I would like to heed the wishes of my people, Mother, but I took a holy vow."

I can't see any reason for the suggestion that Lyanna refused to take the betrothal vow when she was betrothed to Robert.  She may have been reluctant (based on one passing comment to Ned) but there is nothing to suggest she refused the vow.  On the contrary, it is widely accepted that there was a valid betrothal.

No, I must disagree. Joffrey does indeed take a vow we know of, but it is not a "betrothal vow" between himself and Sansa that is conveniently left off stage, as is every other "betrothal vow" within universe. He takes a vow as king. A holy vow. During his coronation. That includes upholding the law, support of the faith, and all kinds of other things.

Part of the world of Westeros that Martin has created includes marriage pacts. Marriage pacts between the king and his lords, and between lords and other lords. Indeed this patriarchal system extends to the small folk whose fathers make marriage pacts with other fathers. When these pacts are made they bind the Houses or the fathers to obey the terms of the pact, and to not do so is a serious breach of the law which Joffrey, and all kings, have sworn holy vows to keep.

Like Aegon v Targaryen before him marriage pacts were made between the royal house and one of the Great Houses of the High Lords of Westeros. In Egg's case he made the pacts for his three sons and other houses including House Baratheon. Egg was sworn to uphold the law and fulfill the pacts, but he could not force his sons to say yes. A war almost started over the crises.

In Joffrey's case, his father negotiated the marriage pact, but he as king is bound by his vow to uphold such pacts to to follow through with the marriage. As an individual he has the right to refuse to marry Sansa, just as she has to refuse to marry him. Of course, the consequences of such a refusal couldn't be more lopsided than they are for Sansa and Joffrey. Joffrey can also remake laws and customs at will as the king. Sansa as a ward of the crown and the daughter of a declared traitor has no power but for saying the word "no" and accepting the consequences of doing so.

Joffrey has the power to set Sansa aside anytime he wants to, but he puts on a show. He protests through his discussion of his "holy vow" how much he respects the pact his father made, but the reality is the decision has already been made and there is no question of really needing the High Septon to intervene and allow him to set aside the Stark/Baratheon marriage pact. It is already done. The new marriage pact between House Tyrell and the Crown is already negotiated and agreed upon.

My friend, you have created a whole new category of "betrothal vows" out of one reference not to betrothal vows but to a vow that is unspecified. It is to manufacture something we see done nowhere in the series and to assume it happens everywhere. There is just no evidence it is so, and example after example that shows no such vows were ever taken. 

You do so with Lyanna and Robert when we know Ned brings the proposal and it is accepted without Robert ever traveling to the North to see Lyanna. The first we know they saw each other is at Harrenhal, without Rickard present. Where is there evidence that anything like what you assume takes place? It is not there.

In fact, we know that when Ned brings the proposal north, Lyanna's response is about Robert's character never changing and the known womanizer he is. Do you assume this discussion was only between Ned and Lyanna, and she never raised her objections with her father? I think not. That is not the Lyanna we are told about. Yet Rickard has his "southron ambitions" and they override Lyanna's objections and the pact is made. No meeting of Robert and Lyanna, or special betrothal vows are needed to make it binding between both Houses.

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

As to Dany's hopes that Daario would prevent her marriage, you need to take into account that (1) Dany promised to marry Hizdahr, (2) Daario could prevent that by kidnapping her, but (3) Dany says nothing about marrying Daario after the kidnapping.  What we have instead is a discussion about the fact that Dany could go through a marriage ceremony that would not be valid, rendering her children bastards (referring to Dany's desire to marry Hizdahr pursuant to Westerosi rites). 

The takeaway is not that, if Daario kidnapped her he could marry her and have trueborn children.  It is that he could kidnap her and stop the marriage to Hizdahr.  Which is exactly what Rhaegar did when he kidnapped Lyanna.  And that any children she had with Daario would then be bastards.  Just like Jon.

I'm fairly certain I said I thought the incident with Rhaegar and Lyanna was neither a kidnapping or elopement, but rather a rescue from a marriage Lyanna didn't want. So I have implied no commitment of marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna any more than Dany does with Daario. Dany's thought make it very clear she does not wish to marry Hizdahr, just as Lyanna's remarks to Ned show her distaste for marrying Robert. What Dany dreams of is a savior that swoops in to take her away from this ceremony she wants no part of, even as she knows she must follow through on her promise for the good of the people of Meereen. Daario is no crown prince and Dany is not just a young noble woman struggling with what her father tells her to do. Dany is the monarch herself, and she has the power to not go through with the marriage, without Daario's help. Nevertheless, what she wishes for is a rescue, not an elopement, and it is a rescue she likens her situation to Rhaegar and his northern girl.

As to the rest, let me say broken marriage pacts don't make children into bastards, the lack of a marriage does. If Robb had any children with Jeyne would the broken pact with the Freys make their children into bastards? No, the two married and any children would be trueborn. If Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son and they married, he too is trueborn.

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Finally, where do you get the idea that the Blackfish was betrothed to Bethany Redwyne but refused to go through with the wedding.  Hosted just says he had an offer from the Redwynes, he ordered Brynden to take it, and Brynden refused.  I take that to mean that Brynden refused to take the betrothal vow.  Not that Hoster betrothed him and he refused to carry out the marriage.

 

Quote

Her father glanced out over the rivers. "Blackfish," he said. "Has he wed yet? Taken some ... girl to wife?"

Even on his deathbed, Catelyn thought sadly. "He has not wed. You know that, Father. Nor will he ever."

"I told him ... commanded him. Marry! I was his lord. He knows. My right, to make his match. A good match. A Redwyne. Old House. Sweet girl, pretty ... freckles ... Bethany, yes. Poor child. Still waiting. Yes. Still ..." (AGoT 659)

Hoster made the marriage pact and the Blackfish refused to go through with it. As Martin's quote in the SSM makes clear. There is no "betrothal vow." It is a fantasy you've made up.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

This doesn't rule out a staged kidnapping, though. You know, the "putting the girl's honour above his own" kind. If she is "kidnapped", then it is Rhaegar who gets all the blame; it even protects the Stark honour because they are not breaking their word to Robert.

Elsewhere, I mentioned a parallel that I might have brought up here, already, but I really don't remember any more what I said where:

There is a very interesting parallel, or perhaps inspiration? in G.G.Kay's A Song for Arbonne. There is a staged abduction to cover up for a secret love affair, of a lady married for duty, and results in the conception of a child. The lady dies in childbirth, the child is hidden and grows up in ignorance of her heritage as the sole remaining heir of two powerful houses. - Need I say that the secrecy involves a deathbed promise? :D

I don't know the book, so I can't comment on it. It sounds like I should read it, but it will have to go on a very long list of things I have to read.

My own take on this is there is no difference in what happened and a kidnapping for Robert or Rickard or Brandon, and likely not for Ned either. The pact is made and Lyanna's wishes don't enter into its validity. For the two Houses it is not the right of anyone to interfere into the pact they have made. That includes crown princes. So, in understanding Robert's and Brandon's responses in particular, it doesn't matter that Lyanna may not have wanted to marry Robert. Taking her away from that responsibility is as good as theft or kidnapping. Lyanna is Robert's by the sworn agreement of the two Houses. Of course, Lyanna might have thought otherwise. I think she did. And she got help in not going through with her father's wishes.

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Guys, things are somewhat more complex than that. Canceling the Lyanna-Robert marriage for any reason would have caused the Starks to lose face. But that wouldn't have been that bad. It happens. A betrothal is not a marriage, and if you amicably cancel it you certainly should be able to do it. But that isn't the point here. Not at all.

The tensions between Brandon/Ned (and Robert) begin at Harrenhal when Rhaegar publicly sucks up to Lyanna in a most improper way, publicly showing his affection for and devotion to her. If you are married you crown your own wife the queen of love and beauty - or you go along with the rules and (re-)crown the maiden/woman in whose honor the whole tourney is staged. You don't just pick a random 14-year-old you have no business with.

Robert was jealous of Rhaegar, of course, but Brandon was defending the honor of his little sister there, not the honor of House Stark. Rhaegar was making improper advances towards his sister. Rhaegar was a married man and polygamy isn't a thing in Westeros, especially not for mere princes. So the only conclusion the Starks could reach there is that Rhaegar was following in the footsteps of Aerys II and Aegon the Unworthy and planned to make Lyanna his whore. That is something the Starks - as this proud and ancient house that they are - most likely were not looking forward to see happening to their sister.

From what we know right now it seems as if Brandon reacted the way he did because Rhaegar could not let this thing go. He had made it clear to Rhaegar at Harrenhal that he should stay away from Lyanna. I'm not sure if it had been much of a difference if Brandon had known Rhaegar intended to marry Lyanna - after all, she would just be a second wife, and a majority of the lords and people of Westeros might still refer to as a whore, just as they did with Alys Harroway. In addition, Brandon is the eldest brother of Lyanna, supposed to protect her against unwanted male advances - and in this society the men decide with whom their women could hang out with and not they themselves.

But I don't think he considered the possibility of Lyanna becoming Rhaegar's second wife. And we do know that Brandon was already in the Riverlands when he learned about the abduction, on his way to his wedding. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married publicly they most likely did not do that immediately after the abduction.

In that sense the crucial part here is that Rhaegar's sexual/romantic interest in Lyanna Stark was the problem. Not so much that she was promised to Robert Baratheon. She could have been promised to any other man or none at all - the problem was that Rhaegar was married already and could thus not marry Lyanna. And the Starks were most likely not willing to see their beloved sister become a prince's whore.

As to the idea of Rhaegar 'helping' Lyanna to get out of an unwanted marriage:

That doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if you think Lyanna was opposed to the Robert match from the start. She wasn't. She did not love Robert, but love is irrelevant in a marriage in this world. It is nice when you love your spouse but most people don't. Robert was the Lord of Storm's End and a fine match for any lady of noble birth. Now, what troubled Lyanna in Robert was his future behavior and attitude towards her and other women. She expected him not be faithful to her - a hint that she, too, cared about her honor and public image would be cared for by any future husband of hers. She did not want to marry a man she would have to share with whores and mistresses.

But Rhaegar was already married, so what would have caused her to reconsider the whole thing would have been whatever feelings she developed for Rhaegar at Harrenhal. She must have been madly in love with Rhaegar to even consider the idea to enter into a relationship with him. I don't think she did, though. Or if she did she ended the thing right there at Harrenhal. We don't know what happened between them there, perhaps only talks, perhaps some kisses, perhaps even sex. We'll have to wait and see. But if Lyanna had wanted to be with Rhaegar back then I'm pretty sure it could have been arranged back then. They could have married right there, in the castle sept or some sept in Harrentown or farther away from the castle in some village. Or Rhaegar could have taken Lyanna then and there. But he did not.

Considering that love and desire are usually the strongest if you are in the vicinity of the person you love it is very odd to assume that they could have kept up the mad passion they must have felt while they were separated for months - especially since we have no idea that or how they should have exchanged letters, etc.

In that sense I'm pretty sure that Lyanna didn't see what was coming when Rhaegar took her, nor do I think she did work towards that in any way, shape, or form. She may have been pleasantly surprised after the fact because she truly wanted to be with Rhaegar more than everything else but, like Daenerys - who really wanted to be with Daario instead of Hizdahr yet still ensured she would marry Hizdahr, breaking up with Daario -, decided to do the right thing and agreed to go through with the marriage pact.

And I'm also not really sure who came up with that ridiculous second marriage thing. Considering Lyanna's strong personality I'm reasonably confident that Lyanna - despite being in love with Rhaegar - refused to have sex with him while they were not married. She may have even doubted that the man loved her until her proved that love by suggesting that, following the examples of the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel, they would marry before they end up consummating (or continuing) their intimate relationship. There is even a chance that Rhaegar had no intention of marrying Lyanna but just wanted to be with her and make her his mistress when he took - and only married her because he had no other choice if he wanted to be with Lyanna.

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6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

1 - Hoster made the marriage pact and the Blackfish refused to go through with it. As Martin's quote in the SSM makes clear.

2 - There is no "betrothal vow." It is a fantasy you've made up.

1 - I suppose that the personality of the liege lord also comes into the equation. If it had been Tywin and not Hoster, then the Blackfish would had been married or an exile in Essos. Or simply dead.

2 - Maybe "vow" is used in the context of betrothals in the meaning of "giving one's word"?

BTW - followers of the Gods of the Forest have nobody to absolve them from their "holy vows" ...

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7 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

BTW - followers of the Gods of the Forest have nobody to absolve them from their "holy vows" ...

That's why, once you say the words, you are in.

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12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, I must disagree. Joffrey does indeed take a vow we know of, but it is not a "betrothal vow" between himself and Sansa that is conveniently left off stage, as is every other "betrothal vow" within universe. He takes a vow as king. A holy vow. During his coronation. That includes upholding the law, support of the faith, and all kinds of other things.

Part of the world of Westeros that Martin has created includes marriage pacts. Marriage pacts between the king and his lords, and between lords and other lords. Indeed this patriarchal system extends to the small folk whose fathers make marriage pacts with other fathers. When these pacts are made they bind the Houses or the fathers to obey the terms of the pact, and to not do so is a serious breach of the law which Joffrey, and all kings, have sworn holy vows to keep.

Like Aegon v Targaryen before him marriage pacts were made between the royal house and one of the Great Houses of the High Lords of Westeros. In Egg's case he made the pacts for his three sons and other houses including House Baratheon. Egg was sworn to uphold the law and fulfill the pacts, but he could not force his sons to say yes. A war almost started over the crises.

In Joffrey's case, his father negotiated the marriage pact, but he as king is bound by his vow to uphold such pacts to to follow through with the marriage. As an individual he has the right to refuse to marry Sansa, just as she has to refuse to marry him. Of course, the consequences of such a refusal couldn't be more lopsided than they are for Sansa and Joffrey. Joffrey can also remake laws and customs at will as the king. Sansa as a ward of the crown and the daughter of a declared traitor has no power but for saying the word "no" and accepting the consequences of doing so.

Joffrey has the power to set Sansa aside anytime he wants to, but he puts on a show. He protests through his discussion of his "holy vow" how much he respects the pact his father made, but the reality is the decision has already been made and there is no question of really needing the High Septon to intervene and allow him to set aside the Stark/Baratheon marriage pact. It is already done. The new marriage pact between House Tyrell and the Crown is already negotiated and agreed upon.

My friend, you have created a whole new category of "betrothal vows" out of one reference not to betrothal vows but to a vow that is unspecified. It is to manufacture something we see done nowhere in the series and to assume it happens everywhere. There is just no evidence it is so, and example after example that shows no such vows were ever taken. 

You do so with Lyanna and Robert when we know Ned brings the proposal and it is accepted without Robert ever traveling to the North to see Lyanna. The first we know they saw each other is at Harrenhal, without Rickard present. Where is there evidence that anything like what you assume takes place? It is not there.

In fact, we know that when Ned brings the proposal north, Lyanna's response is about Robert's character never changing and the known womanizer he is. Do you assume this discussion was only between Ned and Lyanna, and she never raised her objections with her father? I think not. That is not the Lyanna we are told about. Yet Rickard has his "southron ambitions" and they override Lyanna's objections and the pact is made. No meeting of Robert and Lyanna, or special betrothal vows are needed to make it binding between both Houses.

I'm fairly certain I said I thought the incident with Rhaegar and Lyanna was neither a kidnapping or elopement, but rather a rescue from a marriage Lyanna didn't want. So I have implied no commitment of marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna any more than Dany does with Daario. Dany's thought make it very clear she does not wish to marry Hizdahr, just as Lyanna's remarks to Ned show her distaste for marrying Robert. What Dany dreams of is a savior that swoops in to take her away from this ceremony she wants no part of, even as she knows she must follow through on her promise for the good of the people of Meereen. Daario is no crown prince and Dany is not just a young noble woman struggling with what her father tells her to do. Dany is the monarch herself, and she has the power to not go through with the marriage, without Daario's help. Nevertheless, what she wishes for is a rescue, not an elopement, and it is a rescue she likens her situation to Rhaegar and his northern girl.

As to the rest, let me say broken marriage pacts don't make children into bastards, the lack of a marriage does. If Robb had any children with Jeyne would the broken pact with the Freys make their children into bastards? No, the two married and any children would be trueborn. If Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son and they married, he too is trueborn.

 

Hoster made the marriage pact and the Blackfish refused to go through with it. As Martin's quote in the SSM makes clear. There is no "betrothal vow." It is a fantasy you've made up.

It is clear from the context of Joffrey's discussion of his vow that he personally took a holy vow to marry Sansa.  He and the High Septon are discussing specifically whether he is required to go through with the marriage when Joffrey refers to his holy oath.

And there is no evidence in the books that any king ever took a coronation oath, or bound himself in any way to follow the law.  We see Robb being proclaimed king in the North and we see his vassals swear fealty to him.  But we don't see him swearing any oath to them.  We also see Joffrey's vassals swearing fealty to him but we don't see him taking any coronation oath.  So I am not the one making up fantasy oaths.  

 And your quote on the Blackfish does not say what you think it says.  Hoster says it was his right to make a match for Brynden, he arranged a match with the Redwynes and he had three "other offers."  That suggests that he ordered Brynden to marry, the first step of which is betrothal, and Brynden refused.  That makes much more sense than your interpretation -- which is that the Lord swears to the betrothal and then the vassal decides whether to honor that oath by taking the marriage vows.  That would place the Lord's honor in the hands of his vassal and would be a recipe for disaster.  

Regarding Egg's children, Barristan says that they "wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes."  But it also says hat because he had "followed his own heart," Egg "allowed his sons to have their way."  That indicates to me that Egg arranged for them to be released from any pre-existing betrothals, just as Joffrey was released from Sansa.  If he is ablnything like the medieval popes, the High Septon could do that just as easily after the fact.

But there is good reason to think that a marriage performed when one of the participants is betrothed to someone else is invalid and the children are bastards.  GRRM is heavily influenced by the Wars of the Roses, and will be well-aware that the children of Edward IV were declared illegitimate on grounds that he was betrothed to Eleanor Talbot when he married his wife.  (I am not convinced that was true, but the point is that it shows the legal impact on the children if one of his parents was betrothed to someone else at the time of the marriage).  In addition, we have the Green Grace telling Dany that a marriage performed in Meereen under Westerosi rites would not be recognized and any children would be bastards.  So GRRM has told us that going through a marriage ceremony does not necessarily make a child legitimate.

6 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - I suppose that the personality of the liege lord also comes into the equation. If it had been Tywin and not Hoster, then the Blackfish would had been married or an exile in Essos. Or simply dead.

2 - Maybe "vow" is used in the context of betrothals in the meaning of "giving one's word"?

BTW - followers of the Gods of the Forest have nobody to absolve them from their "holy vows" ...

The followers of the Old Gods do have someone who can release them from a betrothal vow:  the fiancé.  If Lyanna wanted out of her vow to Robert, she (or Rickard) could have sought Robert's agreement to dissolve the betrothal.  

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9 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

The followers of the Old Gods do have someone who can release them from a betrothal vow:  the fiancé.  If Lyanna wanted out of her vow to Robert, she (or Rickard) could have sought Robert's agreement to dissolve the betrothal.  

Good point.

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