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R+L=J v.164


SFDanny

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On 31/08/2017 at 7:00 PM, Eira Seren said:

This is yet another suggestion to me that

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Jon is not Aegon.  It doesn't makes sense to have two in the same family.  Unless the Targs are Monty Python fans and suddenly got the bright idea, given their incestuous nature, to just do names like Bruce.  

 

 

 

 

Or it could be that book Aegon ends up being an imposter and Jon is the real one, meaning that the show decided to cut out the fake one, but both end up leading to the same end game.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, things are somewhat more complex than that. Canceling the Lyanna-Robert marriage for any reason would have caused the Starks to lose face. But that wouldn't have been that bad. It happens. A betrothal is not a marriage, and if you amicably cancel it you certainly should be able to do it. But that isn't the point here. Not at all.

The tensions between Brandon/Ned (and Robert) begin at Harrenhal when Rhaegar publicly sucks up to Lyanna in a most improper way, publicly showing his affection for and devotion to her. If you are married you crown your own wife the queen of love and beauty - or you go along with the rules and (re-)crown the maiden/woman in whose honor the whole tourney is staged. You don't just pick a random 14-year-old you have no business with.

Robert was jealous of Rhaegar, of course, but Brandon was defending the honor of his little sister there, not the honor of House Stark. Rhaegar was making improper advances towards his sister. Rhaegar was a married man and polygamy isn't a thing in Westeros, especially not for mere princes. So the only conclusion the Starks could reach there is that Rhaegar was following in the footsteps of Aerys II and Aegon the Unworthy and planned to make Lyanna his whore. That is something the Starks - as this proud and ancient house that they are - most likely were not looking forward to see happening to their sister.

From what we know right now it seems as if Brandon reacted the way he did because Rhaegar could not let this thing go. He had made it clear to Rhaegar at Harrenhal that he should stay away from Lyanna. I'm not sure if it had been much of a difference if Brandon had known Rhaegar intended to marry Lyanna - after all, she would just be a second wife, and a majority of the lords and people of Westeros might still refer to as a whore, just as they did with Alys Harroway. In addition, Brandon is the eldest brother of Lyanna, supposed to protect her against unwanted male advances - and in this society the men decide with whom their women could hang out with and not they themselves.

But I don't think he considered the possibility of Lyanna becoming Rhaegar's second wife. And we do know that Brandon was already in the Riverlands when he learned about the abduction, on his way to his wedding. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married publicly they most likely did not do that immediately after the abduction.

In that sense the crucial part here is that Rhaegar's sexual/romantic interest in Lyanna Stark was the problem. Not so much that she was promised to Robert Baratheon. She could have been promised to any other man or none at all - the problem was that Rhaegar was married already and could thus not marry Lyanna. And the Starks were most likely not willing to see their beloved sister become a prince's whore.

As to the idea of Rhaegar 'helping' Lyanna to get out of an unwanted marriage:

That doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if you think Lyanna was opposed to the Robert match from the start. She wasn't. She did not love Robert, but love is irrelevant in a marriage in this world. It is nice when you love your spouse but most people don't. Robert was the Lord of Storm's End and a fine match for any lady of noble birth. Now, what troubled Lyanna in Robert was his future behavior and attitude towards her and other women. She expected him not be faithful to her - a hint that she, too, cared about her honor and public image would be cared for by any future husband of hers. She did not want to marry a man she would have to share with whores and mistresses.

But Rhaegar was already married, so what would have caused her to reconsider the whole thing would have been whatever feelings she developed for Rhaegar at Harrenhal. She must have been madly in love with Rhaegar to even consider the idea to enter into a relationship with him. I don't think she did, though. Or if she did she ended the thing right there at Harrenhal. We don't know what happened between them there, perhaps only talks, perhaps some kisses, perhaps even sex. We'll have to wait and see. But if Lyanna had wanted to be with Rhaegar back then I'm pretty sure it could have been arranged back then. They could have married right there, in the castle sept or some sept in Harrentown or farther away from the castle in some village. Or Rhaegar could have taken Lyanna then and there. But he did not.

Considering that love and desire are usually the strongest if you are in the vicinity of the person you love it is very odd to assume that they could have kept up the mad passion they must have felt while they were separated for months - especially since we have no idea that or how they should have exchanged letters, etc.

In that sense I'm pretty sure that Lyanna didn't see what was coming when Rhaegar took her, nor do I think she did work towards that in any way, shape, or form. She may have been pleasantly surprised after the fact because she truly wanted to be with Rhaegar more than everything else but, like Daenerys - who really wanted to be with Daario instead of Hizdahr yet still ensured she would marry Hizdahr, breaking up with Daario -, decided to do the right thing and agreed to go through with the marriage pact.

And I'm also not really sure who came up with that ridiculous second marriage thing. Considering Lyanna's strong personality I'm reasonably confident that Lyanna - despite being in love with Rhaegar - refused to have sex with him while they were not married. She may have even doubted that the man loved her until her proved that love by suggesting that, following the examples of the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel, they would marry before they end up consummating (or continuing) their intimate relationship. There is even a chance that Rhaegar had no intention of marrying Lyanna but just wanted to be with her and make her his mistress when he took - and only married her because he had no other choice if he wanted to be with Lyanna.

Yet I think things are more complex than this, even.  I'm pretty sure Lyanna broke her betrothal to Robert, and I'm not clear about a few things, given that there's no available data (and Lyanna left her cell phone at home when she went, so there's no GPS tracking).  What I'm sure about is that Rhaegar got blamed for her disappearance.  And frankly, I don't think he had a thing to do with it.  Later, there may have been some contact,but I don't think Rhaegar is who she left Robert for.

it had a veryunfortunate fallout, however, and had it not been for Rhaegar's actions at the Tourney, Brandon might never have misunderstood things there and jumped to the conclusion of kidnapping. 

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3 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Or it could be that book Aegon ends up being an imposter and Jon is the real one, meaning that the show decided to cut out the fake one, but both end up leading to the same end game.

Could be.  But for that to be the case, Jon would have to be the real son of Rhaegar. And I'm in deep, deep doubt of that.  Maybe if he adopted Lyanna's baby or something ;)

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21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't know the book, so I can't comment on it. It sounds like I should read it, but it will have to go on a very long list of things I have to read.

I definitely recommend it, it's among my top favourites, with a very convincingly built world and very human characters, as well as certain poetic beauty fitting very well with the theme of troubadour culture.

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

My own take on this is there is no difference in what happened and a kidnapping for Robert or Rickard or Brandon, and likely not for Ned either.

Would he then say that her wolf blood led her to an early grave? To me, that makes Lyanna responsible for her own actions, and with Ned's sense of justice, I don't think he would assign all the blame to Rhaegar if Lyanna had her share. (Plus, there is that mysterious line of thought somehow linking Ned's promise to Lyanna to Robert bashing Rhaegar's honour - because this time, he doesn't tell Robert about the promise, I read it as disagreement with what Robert said, i.e. that Rhaegar did have honour, and again this would speak against a perception of Rhaegar as a kidnapper).

I am quite sure that Brandon would definitely see it as kidnapping, regardless of the circumstances (it almost seems that anything Rhaegar-related made him go "rhaaagr") but with Robert, I think it is a bit more complicated. I think that he would convince himself that it was all Rhaegar's fault even if he saw black on white that Lyanna went willingly but somewhere deep inside, the truth would keep gnawing at him. As for Rickard... a big unknown. 

 

9 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Good point.

Not really, unless The Twinslayer can produce a quote showing the betrothal vows before heart tree. And since we don't see marriages dissolved when one spouse releases the other of the vow, either, it follows that 1) there is no betrothal vow to gods, and 2) marriage vow, just like all others vows to gods, are for life.

1 hour ago, Eira Seren said:

Could be.  But for that to be the case, Jon would have to be the real son of Rhaegar. And I'm in deep, deep doubt of that.  Maybe if he adopted Lyanna's baby or something ;)

I seem to recall a time when your reasoning was more, eh, reasonable. GRRM is only a human writing a story, not some mystic with deep-hidden truths that only few chosen ones can see. 

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33 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not really, unless The Twinslayer can produce a quote showing the betrothal vows before heart tree.

I was thinking more along the lines of "giving one's word" in general than a special "betrothal vow", be it before the Heart Tree or somewhere else.

But you also make a good point that we have not been presented with "amical and mutual retraction of marriage vows" :)

Seems I am out of my depth so I will try to steer away from this thread  :)

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1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Seems I am out of my depth so I will try to steer away from this thread  :)

Not really sure why you should do that. If there is a claim you're unfamiliar with, you can always ask for a reference and check it for yourself - how else would you get into the depth? :-)

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Jon wondered just as his Father did...

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

Rhaegar pledged himself to Lyanna Stark in front of the old gods just as Jon pledged himself to the NW.  The Crown Prince remembered the smell of Lyanna's hair and the warmth of her body, the conflicting thought that he was wrong to have loved her and he was wrong to have left her back at the tower of joy.

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9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I seem to recall a time when your reasoning was more, eh, reasonable. GRRM is only a human writing a story, not some mystic with deep-hidden truths that only few chosen ones can see. 

He's not? *shock* *disbelief* ...  Well, that's a relief, I thought I wasn't special enough to be one of the chosen ones, but this makes more sense. Too bad though, that he's so much human in fact that for a sufficient amount of money he let two butchers fancying themselves "writers" masacre his life's work.

And I remember a time when he called the finale of LOST : "dog shit someone left on my doorstep", funnily enough the show based on his work is heading in the same smelly direction.

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1 hour ago, Han Snow said:

He's not? *shock* *disbelief* ...  Well, that's a relief, I thought I wasn't special enough to be one of the chosen ones, but this makes more sense. Too bad though, that he's so much human in fact that for a sufficient amount of money he let two butchers fancying themselves "writers" masacre his life's work.

And I remember a time when he called the finale of LOST : "dog shit someone left on my doorstep", funnily enough the show based on his work is heading in the same smelly direction.

Well, perhaps he had hoped for something else... decent TV shows do exist, after all. 

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I definitely recommend it, it's among my top favourites, with a very convincingly built world and very human characters, as well as certain poetic beauty fitting very well with the theme of troubadour culture.

Very Good! I've added it to my list. Books tend to go up and down on that list before I get to reading them. Of course, Sons of the Dragon will shoot to the top come October. Martin releases tend to do that. Thanks for the recommendation.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Would he then say that her wolf blood led her to an early grave? To me, that makes Lyanna responsible for her own actions, and with Ned's sense of justice, I don't think he would assign all the blame to Rhaegar if Lyanna had her share. (Plus, there is that mysterious line of thought somehow linking Ned's promise to Lyanna to Robert bashing Rhaegar's honour - because this time, he doesn't tell Robert about the promise, I read it as disagreement with what Robert said, i.e. that Rhaegar did have honour, and again this would speak against a perception of Rhaegar as a kidnapper). 

I am quite sure that Brandon would definitely see it as kidnapping, regardless of the circumstances (it almost seems that anything Rhaegar-related made him go "rhaaagr") but with Robert, I think it is a bit more complicated. I think that he would convince himself that it was all Rhaegar's fault even if he saw black on white that Lyanna went willingly but somewhere deep inside, the truth would keep gnawing at him. As for Rickard... a big unknown. 

i think we have talked about this before, but I should have been more clear, especially about Ned. I think Ned's thoughts about Lyanna change over the course of the rebellion. Ned is angry, but under control, when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna at Harrenhal. I take that to mean he sees this as an insult to Stark prerogatives just a Rickard would and Brandon does. Robert has good enough sense to laugh it off as saying Rhaegar was "only giving Lyanna her due." But I take this as a signal that both older brothers know full well this is Rhaegar saying he has an interest in stopping this marriage. The Stark brothers know this is a royal move, even if it is only symbolic at this point, into the rights of Winterfell to make the marriage pacts it wants. It also uses Lyanna in a way to make Rhaegar's point that, while on the surface is an honor, could be taken as a untoward interest in their sister. That all three brothers likely know Lyanna returns the interest only makes the matter worse.

Ned knows Lyanna's thinking towards Robert, and he has to be an idiot not to notice her interest in the Crown Prince, but I think at this time he is likely to think Lyanna still will do her duty as her father has laid out in the marriage pact with Robert.

When Rhaegar and Lyanna run off together months later, Ned has to know it is likely consensual. He just thinks Lyanna not doing her duty to the family, and Rhaegar helping her to not do so, is the equivalent of kidnapping. It is interference in the Starks right to make the marriages they see fit to make. In that much Brandon, Ned, and Rickard would agree. What the three of them would do in reaction, I think, is very different.

We know what Brandon did. He goes to the Red Keep and demands Rhaegar come out and die. His judgment is much the same as we see at Harrenhal when he has to be physically restrained from doing something monumentally stupid. There is no one able or perhaps willing to restrain him among his friends who ride with him to King's Landing.

Rickard, is a different case. Where Brandon demands a duel and says nothing of his sister, Rickard would know to lead his case with the concern for Lyanna and a demand for an explanation, not blood. If he thought it wise to start a war over Lyanna, he wouldn't have done so by giving himself and some of his closest allies over to the king to dispose of as the mad monarch saw fit. That doesn't mean I don't think Rickard knows exactly what is going on with both Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'm quite certain the brothers let him know what happen at Harrenhal, and I'm also quite certain Lyanna did not restrict her thoughts about Robert to Ned. That Rickard went ahead with the marriage pact over his daughters concerns tells us all we need to know about the difference between Rickard and Ned. Ned would have never forced his daughters into marriages they opposed. No matter the strategic advantage such marriages might bring. That Sansa's declarations of true love towards Joffrey place him in the awkward position of trying to stop a marriage she wants is, I think, quite different.

Ned's thoughts to his sister are consistent in that, I think, his remarks years later indicate he still believes Lyanna's wolfish side did make her do things in a rash manner that contributed to her death. I just think Ned before the deaths of Elia and her children and certainly at the tower of joy probably is very different man than the Ned after those two events. Doing one's duty to family when it means making your children accept an abusive marriage and giving up on a chance of love no longer is so clear for Ned as the course to travel. No matter how certain Lord Rickard was about such a path. Indeed, in the end Ned puts the love of his sister and the life of her child above duty to Robert.

I think Ned always thinks Lyanna is in part responsible for her death, but I think he moves from agreeing with Lord Rickard that she was wrong to agreeing that Lyanna was right in the objections she raised. I would think in the end as Ned holds his sisters dead body, he feels a sense of profound guilt for not helping Lyanna stop the marriage to Robert much, much earlier.

A side note, that we may have also talked about in the past is young Benjen's thoughts on all of this. I think he is a Lyanna partisan throughout. If Ned loves his sister as much as he says he does, I think Benjen does even more. Which is why I think the answer to why Benjen joins the Watch when he does is all about Ned bringing the news of her death back to Winterfell. Benjen does his duty for family by being the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion, but his early departure is likely due to feelings of blame and guilt around Lyanna's death. Benjen and Ned no doubt love each other, but the hurt is too deep.

Anyway, my thoughts.

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Well, yeah, it is rather difficult to remember what has been talked with whom during the years :-)

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think Ned always thinks Lyanna is in part responsible for her death, but I think he moves from agreeing with Lord Rickard that she was wrong to agreeing that Lyanna was right in the objections she raised. I would think in the end as Ned holds his sisters dead body, he feels a sense of profound guilt for not helping Lyanna stop the marriage to Robert much, much earlier.

I think we're mostly in agreement with what you wrote, perhaps except this passage. I think that the full agreement with Lyanna's choice comes only in AGOT, in that passage when he muses about Robert, Lyanna and Jon, and the final part about Rhaegar most likely not frequenting brothels is like a final acknowledgement that Lyanna had been right all along.

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19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Would he then say that her wolf blood led her to an early grave? To me, that makes Lyanna responsible for her own actions, and with Ned's sense of justice, I don't think he would assign all the blame to Rhaegar if Lyanna had her share. (Plus, there is that mysterious line of thought somehow linking Ned's promise to Lyanna to Robert bashing Rhaegar's honour - because this time, he doesn't tell Robert about the promise, I read it as disagreement with what Robert said, i.e. that Rhaegar did have honour, and again this would speak against a perception of Rhaegar as a kidnapper).

Well. . . Ned does hold her responsible.  He points out that she was

 
Quote

Beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.

 

Also

You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.

So I think Ned associates Lyanna's decisions with the events that led to her death.  I don't think he absolves her of it at all, given that he's been left holding the pieces all these years.  And as I've said before, I don't hear him sitting around feeling angry at Rhaegar, which he'd definitely do if Rhaegar's to blame.  I mean, he helped lead a rebellion against the Targs.  So it's doubtful Rhaegar had much at all to do with Lyanna's disappearance.    

I am quite sure that Brandon would definitely see it as kidnapping, regardless of the circumstances (it almost seems that anything Rhaegar-related made him go "rhaaagr") but with Robert, I think it is a bit more complicated. I think that he would convince himself that it was all Rhaegar's fault even if he saw black on white that Lyanna went willingly

This I agree with.  In fact Brandon would have see it this way regardless of who Lyanna absconded with.  I don't think it's what happened, but it's even possible someone might easily have started a war by kidnapping Lyanna themselves and letting Brandon draw his conclusions.  Because the one certain thing is that he did.

 

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20 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I was thinking more along the lines of "giving one's word" in general than a special "betrothal vow", be it before the Heart Tree or somewhere else.

But you also make a good point that we have not been presented with "amical and mutual retraction of marriage vows" :)

Seems I am out of my depth so I will try to steer away from this thread  :)

Well, that might work, depending.  In fact, Barbery Dustin seems to think Brandon Stark gave her all but such a promise just to get in her pants, and has not yet forgiven him.  But keep in mind that we also haven't been shown any marriage vows, "animal and mutual" or otherwise, taking place between R and L, either.  We do have a lot of assumptions.

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8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, yeah, it is rather difficult to remember what has been talked with whom during the years :-)

So true. Not only is it the many long discussions with others over the ten years I've been doing this, but it also the changes those ten years has brought on my ability to remember as well as I could a decade ago. I'm getting old.

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I think we're mostly in agreement with what you wrote, perhaps except this passage. I think that the full agreement with Lyanna's choice comes only in AGOT, in that passage when he muses about Robert, Lyanna and Jon, and the final part about Rhaegar most likely not frequenting brothels is like a final acknowledgement that Lyanna had been right all along.

I don't think we are disagreeing here. The last thing I want to suggest is that Ned doesn't change over the course of his story in A Game of Thrones. It is not just in the backstory that we learn of those changes, but we see them in his character as we read his point of view chapters. Certainly, we get a dissonance between the story of the ever honorable Ned who would never lie or do wrong with the Ned who has mysterious secrets that he continues to hide from all others. But we also have Ned change as he is challenged by his circumstances. A large part of this is the dangers he sees for his children, especially his two daughters he has brought with him into a nest of vipers. And part of that change takes place over how he deals with those vipers.

I think that also includes how his views change towards his dead sister, brother, and father over the years. So, when you rightly point out how the brothel scene makes him evaluate Rhaegar and Lyanna again, I agree completely. I would only add a scene which is one of my favorites in the books that includes the reference to Lyanna's wolfish character. What happens here is Ned being forced to think of his sister's character through the conduct of his youngest daughter. I think Ned giving needle back to Arya and arranging lessons with Syrio reflects not only a rejection of Rickard's path with Lyanna, but a reevaluation of that history. Ned doesn't break Needle over his leg as he threatens, but decides to help Arya in her choices of what she wants from life. He is determined to break the cycle of pain that old traditions and old schemes cause to the children in his life.

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4 hours ago, Eira Seren said:

Well. . . Ned does hold her responsible.  He points out that she was

Also

So I think Ned associates Lyanna's decisions with the events that led to her death.  I don't think he absolves her of it at all, given that he's been left holding the pieces all these years.  

I believe we're in full agreement here; no matter how much Ned loved Lyanna, he wasn't blind to the consequences of her own actions 

4 hours ago, Eira Seren said:

And as I've said before, I don't hear him sitting around feeling angry at Rhaegar, which he'd definitely do if Rhaegar's to blame.  I mean, he helped lead a rebellion against the Targs.  So it's doubtful Rhaegar had much at all to do with Lyanna's disappearance.

Here you're conflating several factors and leaving out an important point.

First, Ned is a just and dutiful man, he doesn't go around hating people who are doing their duty. Rhaegar didn't start the war, didn't kill Brandon and Rickard, but once the shit hit the fan, it was his duty to fight for his side, just like it was the duty of the KG whom Ned doesn't hate, either, even though they killed his friends, quite the contrary. So, Ned wouldn't hate a person just because they were on the opposite sides of the conflict, he reserves that for people who are dishonourable and betray their duty (Jaime and Tywin).

Second, since we have already agreed that Ned is aware of Lyanna's own part in her demise, ask yourself: would he really hate Rhaegar, if Lyanna was a willing participant? That would be unjust, wouldn't it? Now, I suppose that initially, Ned was certainly embittered towards Rhaegar, but his sense of justice didn't allow him to develop such a paranoid hatred like Robert did and to come to terms with Lyanna's choice. Lyanna loved Rhaegar, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, neither wanted those terrible things to happen, and they both died... what's there to hate? 

2 hours ago, Eira Seren said:

Well, that might work, depending.  In fact, Barbery Dustin seems to think Brandon Stark gave her all but such a promise just to get in her pants, and has not yet forgiven him.

Has she not? She seems to put all the blame with Rickard, his maester, and Cat, unless it is some pretense on her part.

2 hours ago, Eira Seren said:

 But keep in mind that we also haven't been shown any marriage vows, "animal and mutual" or otherwise, taking place between R and L, either.  We do have a lot of assumptions.

Sure, we don't, but don't be overly surprised by the potential reveal because the groundwork has been laid. All those "dutiful and honorable" about Rhaegar, the girl's honour above one's own, dishonoring the girl by getting her pregnant and what not, and an old and rather exotic way how to solve Rhaegar's little problem of being already married.

 

50 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I would only add a scene which is one of my favorites in the books that includes the reference to Lyanna's wolfish character. What happens here is Ned being forced to think of his sister's character through the conduct of his youngest daughter. I think Ned giving needle back to Arya and arranging lessons with Syrio reflects not only a rejection of Rickard's path with Lyanna, but a reevaluation of that history. Ned doesn't break Needle over his leg as he threatens, but decides to help Arya in her choices of what she wants from life. He is determined to break the cycle of pain that old traditions and old schemes cause to the children in his life.

Yes, that is certainly meant as a parallel/reversal. Arya is so much like Lyanna, and seeing where Rickard's path led Lyanna, Ned does the very opposite with Arya, and it basically saved her life.

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Yes, that is certainly meant as a parallel/reversal. Arya is so much like Lyanna, and seeing where Rickard's path led Lyanna, Ned does the very opposite with Arya, and it basically saved her life.

Completely agree!;)

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On 9/1/2017 at 4:38 PM, TMIFairy said:

Good point.

Thanks.

On 9/2/2017 at 2:29 AM, Ygrain said:

Not really, unless The Twinslayer can produce a quote showing the betrothal vows before heart tree. And since we don't see marriages dissolved when one spouse releases the other of the vow, either, it follows that 1) there is no betrothal vow to gods, and 2) marriage vow, just like all others vows to gods, are for life. 

The first quote showing that there is a betrothal vow is Joffrey saying that when he was betrothed to Sansa, he took a holy vow.  Another is in the Appendix to ACOK, which says:  "Robb Stark agreed to a betrothal, promising to marry" a Frey after the war was over.  Notably, at the time, Robb was not a king or even a lord -- his father was alive in King's Landing and Catelyn was regent of the North.  This is a great example, because Cat did the negotiations but they were not final until Robb -- still a minor and not yet a Lord -- agreed and took a vow.  

I don't know whether Lyanna took her betrothal vow before a heart tree or before the Seven.  It could be that she made the vow before the Seven, since we know that Ned (follower of the Old Gods) married Cat (follower of the Seven) in a sept.  We know Joffrey took a betrothal vow to Sansa, and there is every reason to believe he did it before the Seven, since he followed the New Gods.  There is also every reason to believe that Robert gave his betrothal vow to Lyanna before the Seven, too, since he was a follower of the New Gods.  My guess is that Sansa returned Joffrey's vow before the Seven as well.  If they followed the Robert/Lyanna precedent, that suggests that Lyanna also swore to the Seven that she would marry Robert and no other.  But it is possible she made her oath to the Old Gods.

But I am laughing a little at your suggestion that it did not happen unless I can find a passage in the books that describes it -- since you believe Rhaegar and Lyanna went through a marriage ceremony yet it is not described anywhere in the books.  If you are speaking in more general terms -- that we have not yet seen the form a Northern betrothal vow takes -- I would just say that we always knew that Northerners could marry but we did not see the Northern marriage ceremony until ADWD.  With two books left to go, if GRRM wants to show us the Northern betrothal vows, he has plenty of time to do that.   

On 9/2/2017 at 0:19 PM, IceFire125 said:

Jon wondered just as his Father did...

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

Rhaegar pledged himself to Lyanna Stark in front of the old gods just as Jon pledged himself to the NW.  The Crown Prince remembered the smell of Lyanna's hair and the warmth of her body, the conflicting thought that he was wrong to have loved her and he was wrong to have left her back at the tower of joy.

"The boy . . . the child would be a bastard," said Jon.

Just as Rhaegar said to Lyanna.  

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Second, since we have already agreed that Ned is aware of Lyanna's own part in her demise, ask yourself: would he really hate Rhaegar, if Lyanna was a willing participant? That would be unjust, wouldn't it? Now, I suppose that initially, Ned was certainly embittered towards Rhaegar, but his sense of justice didn't allow him to develop such a paranoid hatred like Robert did and to come to terms with Lyanna's choice. Lyanna loved Rhaegar, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, neither wanted those terrible things to happen, and they both died... what's there to hate? 

I think Ned would despiser her if he thought she went willingly.  Remember the "all for Brandon" speech?  He thinks you just have to do your duty.  He did not want to be Lord of Winterfell, or lose his father, brother and sister to early deaths.  

If he thought Lyanna had played a part in her own abduction he would see that as a serious affront.

But he would also see it as irrelevant to Rhaegar's own culpability.  In the medieval culture, Rhaegar would still be a rapist even if Lyanna went willingly, simply because they did not have Rickard's permission.  

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@The Twinslayer

I really think you are overemphasizing the importance of a betrothal in this world. It is the same as it is our world. A promise to eventually marry, not an actual marriage. You can get out of a betrothal much easier than you get out of an actual marriage.

If you really needed the Faith and the permission of all parties involved to dissolve a betrothal then there would be pretty much no difference between a betrothal and an actual marriage, wouldn't there?

Joffrey dissolved his betrothal following the established protocol, keeping his own honor without any stain. Robb didn't do - and neither did Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Shaera. You don't have to do it the way Joffrey did it. That way you only do it if you have all the power - which the king did, at that point. Then you can be generous.

7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I think Ned would despiser her if he thought she went willingly.  Remember the "all for Brandon" speech?  He thinks you just have to do your duty.  He did not want to be Lord of Winterfell, or lose his father, brother and sister to early deaths.  

If he thought Lyanna had played a part in her own abduction he would see that as a serious affront.

But he would also see it as irrelevant to Rhaegar's own culpability.  In the medieval culture, Rhaegar would still be a rapist even if Lyanna went willingly, simply because they did not have Rickard's permission.  

It is quite clear that Lyanna's own view of things was completely irrelevant for both the Starks and Robert. She is both a brood mare to be sold to the highest bidder as well as an 'innocent girl' that has to be protected from 'evil men' who want to dishonor and soil them. Lord Rickard decided to sell her to Lord Robert Baratheon, so that's what's going to happen. And it is the duty of her brothers to ensure she does not get seduced, deflowered, or raped by 'evil men' like Rhaegar Targaryen.

If Rhaegar was still unmarried at the point he got interested in Lyanna a deal could be struck and a betrothal could have been dissolved. But not with Rhaegar being married to Elia of Dorne and having 1.5 children by the time of Harrenhal.

The idea is pretty laughable that any Stark would have even entertained the idea that Rhaegar might want to take Lyanna as a second wife is laughable. Even if Rhaegar had approached Brandon or Rickard with that idea they would have dismissed it (and him) as being ridiculous or worse - a liar, grasping at straws in his attempts to get under Lyanna's gown.

Rickard may have had southron (marriage) ambitions, but it is very hard to believe he or Brandon would even have entertained the possibility of making Lyanna Rhaegar's whore. There is a reason why Aegon the Unworthy's mistresses weren't exactly from the most prominent families of Westeros. Sure, the Lannisters, Arryns, Hightowers, Tyrells, Starks, Tullys, etc. could also have gained wealth, prestige, honors, and offices by having their daughters and sisters seduce the king but they seem to have been above that kind of thing. And I'm pretty sure that didn't change during the days of Aerys II.

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13 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

"The boy . . . the child would be a bastard," said Jon.

Just as Rhaegar said to Lyanna.    

Which is why Rhaegar married her, thus Jon is trueborn.  And does it frustrate you that GRRM didn't allow Ygritte to be with child, especially the amount of time Jon spilled his seed in her? Or do we assume Jon was able to control himself and was able to pull out every time?

Narrative theme.  Jon is sterile until GRRM deems him fit to sire a trueborn, like his Father.  ;)

 

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1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

Which is why Rhaegar married her, thus Jon is trueborn.  And does it frustrate you that GRRM didn't allow Ygritte to be with child, especially the amount of time Jon spilled his seed in her? Or do we assume Jon was able to control himself and was able to pull out every time?

Narrative theme.  Jon is sterile until GRRM deems him fit to sire a trueborn, like his Father.  ;)

Lol, Jon's sperm may be poor quality... :P

 

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