R+L=J v.164

[purple-eyes]

On 10/1/2017 at 5:15 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

He was already winning drinking contests as we saw at the Harrenhal tourney.

As young as he was, he already had a bastard, and he did not seem bothered by it at all, quite the contrary. I think the point of Robert Baratheon as a character is that he gets what he wants, he does what he wants, and he will live the way he wants, and everyone else around him are forced to accept it, even if that means dishonor and disgrace to those around him.

I tend to see Robert's fellings for Lyanna the way Jaime and Ned described it:

 

Not only once, but twice. Robert's real fellings for Lyanna have been put into doubt twice by George, it's almost as if he is trying to say something about Robert. Of course, i don't agree with Jaime nor Brienne, Robert did not went to war for Lyanna, he went to war because Aerys wanted his head.

George spoke about Robert on a Con last year where he said that Robert wasn't "a real intellectual giant", and that's why he was never capable of realising that Cersei's children weren't his. George said that Robert never believed that people had courage to do something like that to him or go against him in any way, he believed they feared him.

When we learned that Robert wanted to bring his bastard daughter to court, we see how little Robert cared about the honor of his own wife. Cersei had to threaten him "lightly" to not bring the bastard, and he was enraged because of this, which was laughable. Robert was sincerely enraged because Cersei did not want to suffer a bastard at court, the child of another woman among her own children. Robert was enraged that Cersei did not want to suffer a slight upon her own honor. It's this moment that makes you realize that Robert doesn't truly care about the honor of anyone but his own.

Also, the bastard he wanted to bring to court is the same one Lyanna was talking about with Ned. It's not a stretch to say that what Robert tried with Cersei, he would have tried with Lyanna as well had she married him, and Lyanna made her views on bastards very clear to Ned.

For this to happen you need to ignore what Robert is.

See how Cersei treated him because of his behaviour, and how Robert had an unhappy life because of it. Robert wants to live the way he wants to live, and he wants the others around him to accept it and be happy with it as well, which is impossible.

I see Cersei as having less courage than Lyanna, she is more of a lady, she says thing, she does things, but like a tipical westerosi lady, Cersei always knew her place, even if she killed Robert in the end. Lyanna doesn't seem to understand that, she isn't a lady, she calls Benjen stupid, while she also poured wine over his head at Harrenhal. Lyanna is Arya, and Arya is Lyanna to put it simply, you can expect someone foul-mouthed that will not accept anyone trying to shame her.

Lyanna's death was a gift to Robert, but he never knew it, and this is the biggest tragedy in the series.

But Robert's life would always end up the way it did, but it would have been even worse if he had married Lyanna, because his friendship with Ned would have suffered as a result, something that did not happen when he married Cersei, who was not related to Ned.

Lyanna refers to Mya Stone at the very same night she was betrothed to Robert, which means the girl had already been born, and Mya Stone was born in 280 AC, which means Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she was 13, close in age to Margaery Tyrell, the young schemer.

And yes, a year is a long time.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or betrothed a year before the Tourney at Harrenhal, it makes sense, because George does love his symmetry.

Unless you believe that a man who fathered bastards is the same as a man who fathered legitimate children with his lawful wife. It baffles me that people think it is the same thing, it is not.

The truth is, if Rhaegar leaves his own wife for Lyanna, it means he swore a vow to keep to her bed only, and Lyanna isn't doing anything wrong, she is staying true to herself. Rhaegar has no bastards, only legitimate children, and his ex-wife is of no importance to Lyanna, because Rhaegar's ex-wife is Rhaegar's own problem.

From the way Lyanna speaks of Robert, and from the way Ned assured her that he was a good men, it seems she knows only what she heard of him, which means she did not have much contact with him before they were betrothed. It makes sense as well, because Robert was five years older than her, i can't see them interacting at all until she started to get older and Robert started to notice her pretty face(if she indeed had one).

That talk with Ned happened at the very same night her father betrothed her to Robert. One can assume that she said something to her father as well, even if it was in vain.

And she tried, and she succeeded initially, but Rhaegar was killed and her plan ended up in tragedy.

One needs to ignore all the clues that George has left in the first book to not see what really happened: Lyanna speaks twice in the series, but only the first time matters, the time where Lyanna speaks about Robert and his nature, which in turn makes Ned wonder about Rhaegar's own nature. In Eddard IX you have everything you need to know about Lyanna, Robert and Rhaegar.

 

The hazy background of how Rhaegar "stumbled" on her while he was in the Riverlands is even more revealing. Lyanna did whatever she did consciously, otherwise there was no need for Ned to blame her for everything that happened to her.

If you forget the fact that Rhaegar was honor-bound to fight for his house and his children, which is the same thing for the rebels, they are honor-bound to fight for their house and family, which gives them a justification to fight against Aerys when Aerys wanted to kill them, and they had done him no wrong.

 

If you forget how harsh of a place Westeros truly is, you can't expect Lyanna to think that Ned and Robert and the rebels will accept her Targaryen baby with open arms.

You also forgot that there was fear in her eyes when Ned entered in the Tower of Joy to "rescue" her. Ned was there, her own blood and kin, and she was afraid. It was only when Ned promised to keep Jon safe that she smiled to him, this tells you how she felt during the war, it was her child's safety that was paramount to her, everything else that was happening was of no matter to her compared to Jon's safety.

No, Lyanna certainly did not want Rhaegar to fight against her family, but in the end, there was no choice, he was honor-bound to fight for his family, including the child Lyanna was carrying. It wasn't a choice between Lyanna and Aerys, nothing is ever that simple.

You also assume that Lyanna hated Aerys, which is not a stretch, but i have to disagree, i don't think she had time for it. Brandon went to King's Landing to kill the man she chose, and got himself and his father killed because of it. I don't think Lyanna had time to hate Aerys, because she had a part to play in Brandon's death, even though it was Brandon who played the biggest part in his own death, something that Ned admitted.

Oh but i doubt that he would have been able to do this. Rhaegar said that he meant to call a Great Council once the battle of the trident was over(as if he believed his victory was guaranteed, it doesn't surprise me that he lost), and if that was truly his intention, he would have had to bring his father to justice by putting him on a trial for his crimes, this is something that the rebels would have demanded, and if Rhaegar truly wanted to bring peace back into the realm, he would have needed to make his father pay for his crimes.

Huh, what? this is not how warfare works, this would only serve to create chaos and give a chance for the rebels to march to King's Landing and bring down the Targaryens. Robert was the leader of the rebels, there was no talking with him, Rhaegar needed to bring Robert down, he wouldn't gain anything by going against his father and seizing the capital, that would only allow Robert to make short work of him and his family.

wow, Rhaegar's ex-wife? 

Are not we in the book forum? 

I thought people know the difference between book and show? 

[JaimetheConciliator]

On 10/11/2017 at 4:48 PM, purple-eyes said:

I thought people know the difference between book and show? 

That difference is kaput

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/16/2017 at 0:33 AM, Khal Pod said:

 

Eddard 9, Game of thrones

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End.

So perhaps he did already have a bit of a reputation, and perhaps she wasn't quite as willing to do her duty as we may have thought. It says nothing at all about her agreeing to the betrothal, it seems to me that she is complaining of the betrothal and would possibly have turned it down, if she had had any say in the matter.

Arya 2, Game of Thrones

Eddard: "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Here Ned tells us that he believes Lyanna's own wildness caused her death.

So I have a queston for you, if you accept that:

1. Lyanna died giving birth to Jon
2. Jon is the son of Prince Rhaegar, and
3.  Ned knows, both 1 and 2

What wild action of hers would he believe caused her death? Competing as a mystery knight and drawing the prince's attention? Ok, it's possible, but I find it more likely that Ned, at the time of telling this to Arya, was aware that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, willingly, thus leading her to an early grave.

Very succinct and concise.

[Lord Wraith]

Anyone a have a theory on Jon wielding Dark Sister? I recently found some things to make me think he will but I was wondering if anyone previously had written anything on the issue

[Ckram]

@Lord Wraith I don't have one, but you can find it here and here.

[Lord Wraith]

36 minutes ago, Ckram said:

@Lord Wraith I don't have one, but you can find it here and here.

Thanks.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just have to share this from another thread as every one in here should be one the same page about Rhaegar and Lyanna having Jon Snow.

Quote

 

Ive gotta say, you've guy's have talked me deeper into Ashara Dayne as Daenery's mother as ever. Just helped me work out some of the time points and details. Though not all are panned out. I think most are. 

Her one night with Eddard may have even been something she regretted after. 

Ned and her falling for each other or spending a night together at Harrenhal. Ok.

Eddard getting Jon, Wylla, and the "Lie" at the Tower of Joy and being forced to lie to Ashara. OK

This answers almosttttt everything. 

Except Barristan's claim that Dany and Ashara have the same eye's and that some one dishonored her at Harrenhal that drove her into the arms of Eddard Stark. Even if only for a night.

Yet Barristan claims she killed her self over the loss of the man that drove her into Eddard arms. Once again circling back to Rhaegar, as Barristan feels he could have prevented it all by winning and crowning Ashara Dayne the Queen of Love and Beauty. 

The dishonor couldn't be Brandon dishonoring her and that being what drove her into Eddard's arms as Barristan still would have gutted Brandon Stark. And likely could have. The only person who could dishonor her on any level that Barristan couldn't cut the man down for, would be Aerys and Rhaegar.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148846-in-support-of-n-a-j/&page=9

Just in case any one of the R+L=J theory still feels like something is missing. 

Ashara dying in 283 is brought up against but actually supports given that Ashara's death isn't actually dated. Neither is Dany's birth.

So if the Sack of K.L. happens in March of 283Ac and Dany is born to Ashara by Dec of 283 and killing her self shortly after, would all fit. As the only events leading up to are the Battle of the Bells (jan?) the Wedding (Feb?) then the Trident, right next to Riverrun (March?) with the Sack of K.L. within the fortnight. 

The war starting around March of 282Ac given that Brandon died a few short days before his wedding (feb 282?) and Jon Arryn callling his banners shortly after starting the war in March of 282Ac.

Just some food for thought if it hasnt been brought up before in this opus of a thread.

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except Barristan's claim that Dany and Ashara have the same eye's and that some one dishonored her at Harrenhal that drove her into the arms of Eddard Stark. Even if only for a night.

Lol which is not what the book say happened, but whatever.

[AlaskanSandman]

16 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Lol which is not what the book say happened, but whatever.

This is obviously a matter of interpretation of the facts and the order of information in which we're even told. I know we simply just disagree, yet, you havn't finished retorting in the other thread yet though. 

You claim your on the R+L=J train.

Which leaves the mystery of Ashara Dayne only down to a few options

Eddard+Ashara Dayne= nothing but a still born child female child? Cause, not Jon. Ok, this answers most of the mystery it would seem. 

Just ignores Barristan's claim that Dany looks like Ashara. Just something tossed out for no reason? Meant to miss lead i guess?

Dany seeing Rhaegar so much, and even seeing her self as Rhaegar, is only because he is the only positive role model she never knew. 

Rhaella's miscarriages are also just a miss lead. More useless info. 

Rhaegar's seemingly weird eye contact with Dany when he mentions the Dragon needing three heads. Idk what you can conjure for that but im sure youll come up with something. 

The seemingly pointless story from Barristan about him losing to Rhaegar and not being able to crown Ashara. Which for some reason, him losing or idk what it is you think drove Ashara into the arms of Eddard. You guys honestly have me totally lost there. And the dishonor was her being raped or got with child, which again, would be born in 282ac. We dont have any major characters born then so that's out. Ashara doesn't kill her self till sometime near when Eddard goes to Starfall, at least in 283Ac. So she didn't kill her self soon after the baby died. We just have to keep shuffling things around. 

Eddard+Ashara Dayne= Daenerys.           Then she wouldn't need to be hidden, at all, for any reason at all. Other than to supposedly protect Rob's ascension to Lord of Winterfell??? ok. Even though he brought Jon home.

She wouldn't get dragons, so thats kinda out. Unless it was a new binding of bloodlines to the dragons. Maybe. But then why hide her and pretend she's a Targ?

 

Rhaegar+Ashara Dayne= Daenerys.

The only thing that explains the dishonor, what drove her into Eddards arms for a night. How Dany has dragons, why she's hunted, why her past is in question, and is the only thing that actually propels the story further.

        Dragons=Flaming Sword=Azor Ahai=The Sword of the Morning=Daenerys.    Who when morning broke, Jorah found her with the dragons. The Sword of the Morning. 

Which actually propels the story forward to the union between Dany and Jon. The very thing the story is building to. But is this union good or bad? The thing to achieve or the thing to prevent.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

Selmy's wording indicates that Ashara had only recently lost her stillborn daughter when she killed herself, after Ned returned Dawn to Starfall after the war. Which would put a pregnancy at Harrenhal, or any time before the war, well out of the question. It would likely place Ashara's conception months into the war.

Also, Selmy doesn't necessarily distinguish between the person he believes dishonored her at Harrenhal and the Stark she looked to. That is an assumption, based on the assumption that Ashara felt she had been wronged by one person and looked to another person, Stark, for support afterward.

That Selmy's POV suggests the possibility that Ashara killed herself for the man that dishonored her at Harrenhal is a possible insight into the fact that it is Selmy, not Ashara, that believes she was dishonored, and that the man that dishonored her at Harrenhal and the Stark she looked to might be the same person.

Seems likely that Selmy believes Ashara was dishonored in the same sense that he, as someone who claims to love her, would have been dishonoring her if he had acted on his feelings and convinced her to be with him. 

[Bael's Bastard]

The simple fact is that Daenerys is of unquestionable origin. She is the one Targaryen accounted for from birth to present. There is just no plausible case for her mother being someone other than Rhaella, or her father being someone other than Aerys.

[AlaskanSandman]

45 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Selmy's wording indicates that Ashara had only recently lost her stillborn daughter when she killed herself, after Ned returned Dawn to Starfall after the war. Which would put a pregnancy at Harrenhal, or any time before the war, well out of the question. It would likely place Ashara's conception months into the war.

Also, Selmy doesn't necessarily distinguish between the person he believes dishonored her at Harrenhal and the Stark she looked to. That is an assumption, based on the assumption that Ashara felt she had been wronged by one person and looked to another person, Stark, for support afterward.

That Selmy's POV suggests the possibility that Ashara killed herself for the man that dishonored her at Harrenhal is a possible insight into the fact that it is Selmy, not Ashara, that believes she was dishonored, and that the man that dishonored her at Harrenhal and the Stark she looked to might be the same person.

Seems likely that Selmy believes Ashara was dishonored in the same sense that he, as someone who claims to love her, would have been dishonoring her if he had acted on his feelings and convinced her to be with him. 

Then how would Barristan winning cause her to look to him rather than "Stark" who wasn't even competing in said moment? That doesn't make sense. Stark is a non factor other wise in this scenario. He shouldn't be popping up. The Tournament came down to Barristan vs Rhaegar. Which, none of which on its own should have driven her to "look to Stark" unless it was the crowning and Rhaegar's victory that was the dishonor, that drove her to "look to Stark".

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The simple fact is that Daenerys is of unquestionable origin. She is the one Targaryen accounted for from birth to present. There is just no plausible case for her mother being someone other than Rhaella, or her father being someone other than Aerys.

Yea except its not. By who? Who in westeros made eye verification that the woman in Essos known as Dany, is the child that came out of Rhaella? Name one. Ill wait. 

Also, still ignores all the seeming suggestions that Rhaella had problems birthing, Danys remembers things that contradict what we're told, and she speaks Valyrian while Viserys is forced to speak in the common tongue when he wants to speak secretly. Theres alot more too. It just ignores way too much that the author has taken time to put in. Like Barristan saying Dany looks just like Ashara Dayne, which leads him into said story to begin with. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The simple fact is that Daenerys is of unquestionable origin. She is the one Targaryen accounted for from birth to present. There is just no plausible case for her mother being someone other than Rhaella, or her father being someone other than Aerys.

I agree. Listen to the storyteller...

Quote

"We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

Epilogue, Dance

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea except its not. By who? Who in westeros made eye verification that the woman in Essos known as Dany, is the child that came out of Rhaella? Name one. Ill wait. 

Also, still ignores all the seeming suggestions that Rhaella had problems birthing, Danys remembers things that contradict what we're told, and she speaks Valyrian while Viserys is forced to speak in the common tongue when he wants to speak secretly. Theres alot more too. It just ignores way too much that the author has taken time to put in. Like Barristan saying Dany looks just like Ashara Dayne, which leads him into said story to begin with. 

Viserys surely did not see her born, but he grew up with her. We never read his POV, but there was never any suggestion that he thought of her as anything but his sister. 

Compare that to the doubts around Jon and Aegon. If Jon is the son of Rhaegar, he is almost surely the promised prince. If Aegon is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre, we have another Blackfyre claimant that Daenerys will have to join or fight, most likely the latter since the dragons are not likely to be doing a happy dance. But if Daenerys is not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, what would that mean? That she's not Azor Ahai come again? Well, she might not be anyway, assuming Jon is the son of Rhaegar. More importantly for narrative purposes, though, why would the author want the daughter of Ashara Dayne to be the Mother of Dragons? 

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Then how would Barristan winning cause her to look to him rather than "Stark" who wasn't even competing in said moment? That doesn't make sense. Stark is a non factor other wise in this scenario. He shouldn't be popping up. The Tournament came down to Barristan vs Rhaegar. Which, none of which on its own should have driven her to "look to Stark" unless it was the crowning and Rhaegar's victory that was the dishonor, that drove her to "look to Stark".

Barristan's POV explains this. If he had unhorsed Rhaegar then it would have been for him to name the queen of love and beauty, and he is emphatic that he would have named Ashara Dayne.

Barristan laments that Ashara did not know that he loved her. He laments that no good would have come from telling her because of his vows. He also laments that no good came from silence. Then he wonders if Ashara might have looked to him instead of Stark had he unhorsed Rhaegar and named her queen of love and beauty.

There is no need to interpret Rhaegar as having been anything except Barristan's obstacle to naming Ashara queen of love and beauty, and all of the drama, war, and death that came after Rhaegar named Lyanna. There is certainly no hint that Barristan was competing against and fell to the man he believes dishonored Ashara in Rhaegar.

Nothing says that Ashara was "driven" to look to Stark, or "driven" to look to Stark by being dishonored by someone else. He just wonders if she might have looked to him instead of Stark had he defeated Rhaegar and named her QOLAB.

The idea that Ashara was raped or in any way dishonored against her will by Rhaegar or anyone else, and then turned around to hook up with a Stark, is absurd. So too is the idea that, in a scenario where she was dishonored against her will, she would have gone to a Stark, whether Brandon or Ned, instead of her own brother.

[maudisdottir]

 

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea except its not. By who? Who in westeros made eye verification that the woman in Essos known as Dany, is the child that came out of Rhaella? Name one. Ill wait. 

Do we really need eyewitnesses to verify every detail of the books? This isn't a mystery series - there is a major secret about Jon Snow's heritage, but the rest of the book isn't a whodunnit, so I don't know why people are always looking for hidden identities. Stannis calls her Stormborn, Kevan calls her Stormborn, and there are no hints that either of these men have been misled.

Quote

Also, still ignores all the seeming suggestions that Rhaella had problems birthing,

How else would they explain only three children in over 20 years? Rhaella had her first child as a young girl, so you'd expect a Duggar-sized brood by the time of RR. Yet she only bore two surviving children up to that point. It lessens the impact of being the Last Targaryens if there's like twelve of you.

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Danys remembers things that contradict what we're told, and she speaks Valyrian while Viserys is forced to speak in the common tongue when he wants to speak secretly.

This thread is getting way off topic, but are you trying to say that Viserys doesn't speak Valyrian? I don't remember that from the books.

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Theres alot more too. It just ignores way too much that the author has taken time to put in. Like Barristan saying Dany looks just like Ashara Dayne, which leads him into said story to begin with. 

Except he doesn't:

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He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter...

She has the same eyes. She doesn't look "just like Ashara"; in fact, when she's not looking at Barristan (with her "haunting purple eyes") he doesn't notice a resemblance. This is another misconception that people run with because it fits their argument.

[Ygrain]

One thing about Rhaella's pregnancies:

Being married against your will to an abusive psycho is not exactly beneficial for your peace of mind, so bringing a pregnancy to term in his absence doesn't sound so surprising to me.

Plus, Aerys is built quite a lot after Henry VIII, whose first wife had one living child for seven pregnancies, and Anne Boleyn seemed to be heading the same route.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

One thing about Rhaella's pregnancies:

Being married against your will to an abusive psycho is not exactly beneficial for your peace of mind, so bringing a pregnancy to term in his absence doesn't sound so surprising to me.

Aerys wasn't yet an abusive psycho when Rhaella started to have miscarriages and stillbirths. And he suffered with her and comforted her for the first decade of their marriage. They were both forced into this marriage, and considering the fact that Rhaella didn't actually love her brother-husband him sleeping around shouldn't have been that much of an issue. It usually never was in those arranged royal marriages. After all, it greatly reduces the amount of time she would have to spend with him, especially in bed.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, Aerys is built quite a lot after Henry VIII, whose first wife had one living child for seven pregnancies, and Anne Boleyn seemed to be heading the same route.

Aerys II has pretty much nothing in common with Henry VIII. The Targaryen kings who really resemble Henry VIII are Maegor the Cruel (who was also the second son of his father who also had six wives and who also warred against the Church) and Aegon the Unworthy.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

14 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

 

Do we really need eyewitnesses to verify every detail of the books? This isn't a mystery series - there is a major secret about Jon Snow's heritage, but the rest of the book isn't a whodunnit, so I don't know why people are always looking for hidden identities. Stannis calls her Stormborn, Kevan calls her Stormborn, and there are no hints that either of these men have been misled.

How else would they explain only three children in over 20 years? Rhaella had her first child as a young girl, so you'd expect a Duggar-sized brood by the time of RR. Yet she only bore two surviving children up to that point. It lessens the impact of being the Last Targaryens if there's like twelve of you.

This thread is getting way off topic, but are you trying to say that Viserys doesn't speak Valyrian? I don't remember that from the books.

Except he doesn't:

She has the same eyes. She doesn't look "just like Ashara"; in fact, when she's not looking at Barristan (with her "haunting purple eyes") he doesn't notice a resemblance. This is another misconception that people run with because it fits their argument.

Thank you, this along with every other character having a secret identity really irks my nerves sometimes. Simply because I've never heard of any other book that needed witnesses to every written act, as a requirement.