R+L=J v.164

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/23/2017 at 2:45 PM, maudisdottir said:

 

Do we really need eyewitnesses to verify every detail of the books? This isn't a mystery series - there is a major secret about Jon Snow's heritage, but the rest of the book isn't a whodunnit, so I don't know why people are always looking for hidden identities. Stannis calls her Stormborn, Kevan calls her Stormborn, and there are no hints that either of these men have been misled.

How else would they explain only three children in over 20 years? Rhaella had her first child as a young girl, so you'd expect a Duggar-sized brood by the time of RR. Yet she only bore two surviving children up to that point. It lessens the impact of being the Last Targaryens if there's like twelve of you.

This thread is getting way off topic, but are you trying to say that Viserys doesn't speak Valyrian? I don't remember that from the books.

Except he doesn't:

She has the same eyes. She doesn't look "just like Ashara"; in fact, when she's not looking at Barristan (with her "haunting purple eyes") he doesn't notice a resemblance. This is another misconception that people run with because it fits their argument.

I know its not technically a mystery, but are you serious? The books are chalk full of mystery. Did we read the same books? Why be on the forums where people non stop discuss mysteries of the books? Just bored?

Yea, cause those two guys, who were never on the Island with her, are credible witnesses. Im glad your not a cop.

Rhaegar was born the same year she wed Aerys if i remember right, and the same year Rhaella gave up her love with Ser Bonifer Hasty. So, questionable. Viserys is the only one any one can out right prove is Aery's son. Daenerys, sorry, not convinced.

Go back and find one moment he does, cause i can find plenty of moment where he's trying to talk secretly to Dany and uses the common tongue. While Daenerys shows by the end of the books, that she speaks Valyrian, and High Valyrian at that. If Viserys spoke it, it's very strange he didn't just use it instead of the common tongue. Barely any one speaks High Valyrian. That's why Dany chose the word Dracarys or however its slept.

So says you and your deduction reasoning. Means little in way of an argument. Why would Martin bring it up? Which leads Barristan into the events of the Crowning. I mean, he literally gave it in baby steps even. Using it cause it fits my argument is gonna be an obvious given, as it is right there in the text. 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@AlaskanSandman

You can highlight the words you are wanting to respond to then click 'quote this' then respond. It would be much easier to figure out the context to which your response is coming from.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@AlaskanSandman

You can highlight the words you are wanting to respond to then click 'quote this' then respond. It would be much easier to figure out the context to which your response is coming from.

Yea my apologies, i forget and just get rushing due to trying to respond back to every one in a short time. I do need to get better at that

 

[maudisdottir]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The books are chalk full of mystery.

I think you mean "chock full" but I never said the books didn't contain secrets - just that they're not the point of the series, i.e. we're not reading 7 books just to find out who is Jon Snow's mother. The story is greater than its mysteries.

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So says you and your deduction reasoning. Means little in way of an argument. Why would Martin bring it up? Which leads Barristan into the events of the Crowning. I mean, he literally gave it in baby steps even. Using it cause it fits my argument is gonna be an obvious given, as it is right there in the text. 

No, so says George and the words he wrote. You said Barristan thinks Dany looks "just like Ashara" and I was merely pointing out that the books don't say that at all - that in fact, they have the same eyes and there is only a similarity when Dany looks at him. Barristan is showing that his feelings towards Dany are becoming similar to the way he once felt for Ashara, and he's drawing parallels with them. Which of course is merely my interpretation of the text on the page, but at least I'm not pulling words out of thin air and building theories around them.

[AlaskanSandman]

16 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I think you mean "chock full" but I never said the books didn't contain secrets - just that they're not the point of the series, i.e. we're not reading 7 books just to find out who is Jon Snow's mother. The story is greater than its mysteries.

No, so says George and the words he wrote. You said Barristan thinks Dany looks "just like Ashara" and I was merely pointing out that the books don't say that at all - that in fact, they have the same eyes and there is only a similarity when Dany looks at him. Barristan is showing that his feelings towards Dany are becoming similar to the way he once felt for Ashara, and he's drawing parallels with them. Which of course is merely my interpretation of the text on the page, but at least I'm not pulling words out of thin air and building theories around them.

Na, i prefer chalk

What words did i pull out of this air? In my non quoted paraphrasing of what he said? And no, he didn't say just like, or Ashara would have the same hair too. Again, still comes down to interpretation. Your opinion is no more fact than mine.

[maudisdottir]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What words did i pull out of this air? 

"Just like Ashara". Those are your words, not George's. That's not paraphrasing, that's re-writing. Similar eyes don't mean they look "just like" each other. In fact, the only other descriptions we have of Ashara are the opposite of Dany - Ashara is tall with dark hair, and Dany is small with Targaryen silver hair. They have the same eyes, that's all George has told us.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

"Just like Ashara". Those are your words, not George's. That's not paraphrasing, that's re-writing. Similar eyes don't mean they look "just like" each other. In fact, the only other descriptions we have of Ashara are the opposite of Dany - Ashara is tall with dark hair, and Dany is small with Targaryen silver hair. They have the same eyes, that's all George has told us.

This is true. Still doesn't change my point. That its this mention that leads Barristan into the accounts that i propose show some of the events that show Ashara had a thing with Rhaegar. Backed up by the claim she killed her self over the man who dishonored her. 

To which ive yet hear a good argument for Brandon having done this and Ashara's chances for marriage ruined. As people like to use Brandon and Barbarey who had no problems marrying a high lord. Margerys Tyrell who may not have been a virgin marrying two kings. It just falls apart every time i look at it. 

[maudisdottir]

It’s a lot easier to explain away a “virgin” without her maidenhead than a virgin with a bastard child.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

It’s a lot easier to explain away a “virgin” without her maidenhead than a virgin with a bastard child.

Possibly. If she raised and kept said child. Said child was lost though, supposedly.

[J. Stargaryen]

@SFDanny

The link for v. 118 redirects to v. 117. Here is the correct link for v. 118: 

 

[Serafina]

Hi guys,

A not-so-quick question as I am catching up with the numerous Grand Northern Conspiracy threads and something related to Robb's will is bugging me.

Assuming that Robb did legitimize Jon as a Stark, and assuming Jon will ultimately know about his parentage (I consider at this point R+L=J canon) : will Jon be a Stark or a Targaryen ? There was no priest around his birth and likely no legal paper to prove it. And even if there was, does king Robb's will top it ? Or perhaps is it up to Jon to choose between the two ?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Serafina said:

Hi guys,

A not-so-quick question as I am catching up with the numerous Grand Northern Conspiracy threads and something related to Robb's will is bugging me.

Assuming that Robb did legitimize Jon as a Stark, and assuming Jon will ultimately know about his parentage (I consider at this point R+L=J canon) : will Jon be a Stark or a Targaryen ? There was no priest around his birth and likely no legal paper to prove it. And even if there was, does king Robb's will top it ? Or perhaps is it up to Jon to choose between the two ?

Its Jon's get out of jail free card. Robb cannot simply say Jon Snow is legitimate; he has to declare that Jon is the true-born son of Lord Eddard Stark. Jon then gets to choose. He cannot be Jon Stark and Jon [Targaryen?] at one and the same time.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, Serafina said:

Hi guys,

A not-so-quick question as I am catching up with the numerous Grand Northern Conspiracy threads and something related to Robb's will is bugging me.

Assuming that Robb did legitimize Jon as a Stark, and assuming Jon will ultimately know about his parentage (I consider at this point R+L=J canon) : will Jon be a Stark or a Targaryen ? There was no priest around his birth and likely no legal paper to prove it. And even if there was, does king Robb's will top it ? Or perhaps is it up to Jon to choose between the two ?

I am sure he will have some identity struggles, however, he and Ghost are one (as Jon says) and Ghost is of the old gods (as Jon says), so I think hos identity will always lay with the Starks. Ned was his father (we readers know the relation), and the Stark kids his siblings. And we have Jon tell us this:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"Yes, my lord." The soft leather gave beneath Jon's fingers, as if the sword were molding itself to his grip already. He knew he should be honored, and he was, and yet …

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of …

 

[Serafina]

@Black Crow I agree, Jon can not be both. Thus my question.

@The Fattest Leech I am not talking about identity because there is indeed no doubt Jon is a Stark and very much Ned's son. I am asking from a legal point of view : does Robb's will top a document made by a septon or a maester ? I also wonder if there had been a similar situation in the past.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The basic flaw of R+L=J is there is not strong enough evidence to support  that Jon is neither  Rhaegar  , Brandon or Ashara 's son .

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, Serafina said:

@Black Crow I agree, Jon can not be both. Thus my question.

@The Fattest Leech I am not talking about identity because there is indeed no doubt Jon is a Stark and very much Ned's son. I am asking from a legal point of view : does Robb's will top a document made by a septon or a maester ? I also wonder if there had been a similar situation in the past.

Sorry, must’ave misunderstood your query. 

(Short form) Robb was a king when he wrote his will so that makes his decree legal.  Technically what we readers think the will says is still speculation, even though I do believe it names Jon his heir. Many readers think it names Arya as Robb’s heir. However, this has the potential to create a debate with whoever next sits the throne... and it should be good 

At that point Jon can chose his own surname if he wanted to, something to show both sides. The author has left many doors open with a past example for each option. Personally, I think Jon may make his own new surname, take the weirwood as his sigil, and he won’t desire the iron throne monstrosity. But that’s just me 

There are other supposed ways to “prove” Targe blood- the whole dragon bonding thing- but we also have some precedent in history that questions that process (not to mention alys). I think the author is going to undo the trope of “blood purity” (he is an old hippy, after all) and we know power resides where people think it does. 

And don’t forget Howland and possibly someone from the Dayne clan (not saying Jon is a Dayne, just that they were on Ned’s route Home). And don’t forget Bran and his greenseer powers both in him and what he can eventually get others to see. There are many options here. 

And I am and wondering a little if we even have many of these so called legal documents of importance since so much of history was literally noted in the WOIAF book as rumors. Of course I have ideas on the different legitimacies, legal heirs, proof of children, etc... story after story show how corrupt and power hungry the maesters are, so I’d expect a big change in them soon via Sam the Slayer (of Citadel lies). 

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Serafina said:

@Black Crow I agree, Jon can not be both. Thus my question.

@The Fattest Leech I am not talking about identity because there is indeed no doubt Jon is a Stark and very much Ned's son. I am asking from a legal point of view : does Robb's will top a document made by a septon or a maester ? I also wonder if there had been a similar situation in the past.

It's not a question of one trumping the other but rather of Jon deciding which mouldy bit of parchment gets waved at the world and which one tossed on the fire.

As to that choice who knows, after all it was Aemon Targaryen who proclaimed him a son of Winterfell

[Serafina]

17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

At that point Jon can chose his own surname if he wanted to, something to show both sides. The author has left many doors open with a past example for each option. Personally, I think Jon may make his own new surname, take the weirwood as his sigil, and he won’t desire the iron throne monstrosity. But that’s just me 

I'm here for Jon turning the throne down tbh. 

 

17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There are other supposed ways to “prove” Targe blood- the whole dragon bonding thing- but we also have some precedent in history that questions that process (not to mention alys). I think the author is going to undo the trope of “blood purity” (he is an old hippy, after all) and we know power resides where people think it does. 

And don’t forget Howland and possibly someone from the Dayne clan (not saying Jon is a Dayne, just that they were on Ned’s route Home). And don’t forget Bran and his greenseer powers both in him and what he can eventually get others to see. There are many options here. 

And I am and wondering a little if we even have many of these so called legal documents of importance since so much of history was literally noted in the WOIAF book as rumors. Of course I have ideas on the different legitimacies, legal heirs, proof of children, etc... story after story show how corrupt and power hungry the maesters are, so I’d expect a big change in them soon via Sam the Slayer (of Citadel lies). 

Maybe it's a modern reader thing but I don't think Bran showing some people what happened in the ToJ will do. Sure it makes a good emotional scene on TV but it doesn't really make sense in a book written by GRRM. Some people will know yeah, but a legal paper (probably authentified by maesters) for everyone to see will be needed very soon. But now the same goes for Dany and fAegon, right ? She has the dragons to prove who she is, he has his good hair and Connington. Though I think it will be even harder to explain why one of Rhaegar's son was protected by the Stark all this time.

 

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It's not a question of one trumping the other but rather of Jon deciding which mouldy bit of parchment gets waved at the world and which one tossed on the fire.

As to that choice who knows, after all it was Aemon Targaryen who proclaimed him a son of Winterfell

You assume Jon will be the first to know, but he is in a pretty bad shape at the end of ADWD and we don't know how long it will take to bring back from the dead. What if things go as in the TV series, meaning a maester (and/or Sam) finds that legal document first ?

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Aemon Targaryen, could you explain ?

[Black Crow]

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

[Serafina]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

Oh ok. Not sure what it's worth because Jon has been called "bastard" by many others.