SFDanny

R+L=J v.164

319 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, Jon's sperm may be poor quality... :P

This has been like totally foreshadowed!

Jon Snow was named for Jon "The Seed Is Weak" Arryn!

Only the blind and Jon-haters refuse to see such evident parallelism!

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, Jon's sperm may be poor quality... :P

 

Well, personally, coming from a medical background, it doesn't make sense at all.  If we go by science, the winter atmosphere is what gives sperm its viability and motility.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/sperm-production-highest-winter-healthy-men-244597

https://voices.nationalgeographic.org/2013/03/19/sperm-works-best-in-the-winter/

Dany was in regular sexual activity with Daario, but GRRM gave us an explanation, that she can't have children, supposedly.  However, he didn't do this with Jon.  Why?

Therefore, I conclude that GRRM is going by the narrative theme here, that Jon shouldn't sire a bastard--story wise--until he is fit to have one that is trueborn; which I strongly suspect from early on will be born of Dany's womb.

 

 

Edited by IceFire125

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Ygritte could very well have been pregnant when she died? How long did they have intercourse? 1-2 months? Certainly not much longer. They began after they reached the Fist and then Mance sent them to the Wall. I don't know how long the journey took but it couldn't have been that long. And then they quickly separated. For all we know Ygritte might have realized she was pregnant before she attacked Castle Black and died there.

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On 9/3/2017 at 10:57 PM, The Twinslayer said:

I think Ned would despiser her if he thought she went willingly.  Remember the "all for Brandon" speech?  He thinks you just have to do your duty.  He did not want to be Lord of Winterfell, or lose his father, brother and sister to early deaths.  

If he thought Lyanna had played a part in her own abduction he would see that as a serious affront.

But he would also see it as irrelevant to Rhaegar's own culpability.  In the medieval culture, Rhaegar would still be a rapist even if Lyanna went willingly, simply because they did not have Rickard's permission.  

I haven't re-read in a couple years so it very well may be time for me to do so, but can we say for certain that Ned was always as stubbornly dutiful as we know him in Game? Could he not have learned this from Lyanna's mistake? Could it be that he realizes that Robert's Rebellion may have never happened if Lyanna had just done her duty, thus making him into the painfully honorable man we know?

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13 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

I haven't re-read in a couple years so it very well may be time for me to do so, but can we say for certain that Ned was always as stubbornly dutiful as we know him in Game? Could he not have learned this from Lyanna's mistake? Could it be that he realizes that Robert's Rebellion may have never happened if Lyanna had just done her duty, thus making him into the painfully honorable man we know?

That is certainly all possible but if it is the case we have no reason to believe it at this point. We don't know all that much about young Ned.

But what we do know is that both Lyanna and Brandon - the wolf-blooded Starks - were actually willing to do their duty. Lyanna agreed to marry Robert, Brandon agreed to marry Catelyn.

The idea that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar or had made it clear to him - or secretly wished in her heart to be abducted - isn't confirmed, either. Chances are not that good that Ned can blame Lyanna for the whole thing while we don't yet know whether she could have prevented her own abduction or not.

Once Rhaegar took her everything was over, anyway. The honor of Lyanna Stark, House Stark, and House Baratheon was smeared and damaged, and had to be restored with blood. Excuses and apologies wouldn't do. Perhaps Rhaegar could have talked to Lord Rickard but not to Brandon and Robert. They would have demanded satisfaction for Rhaegar's transgressions.

Lyanna herself is a political non-entity in all that. Her wishes don't matter, even if her brothers and father would want to make them matter - they can't agree to anything after Prince Rhaegar publicly smeared her honor and the honor of House Stark. Not without the Starks becoming the laughingstock of the Realm.

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On 8/30/2017 at 9:19 AM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think we can say that. Connington simply never thinks about Lyanna at all. He must know a lot about her but he seems to have buried that very deep considering that it must be very painful for him. After all, Lyanna most likely was the one Rhaegar truly loved. But Jon wanted to be that guy.

It's weird to jump in the middle of a conversation, but here goes.

I've been operating for years under the assumption/impression that Connington knows most everything, if not everything there is to know Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the way he introduces Aegon to the Golden Company always gave me pause about how much more he truly knows. I've even gone as far as to wonder if he was part of the "they" at the ToJ that Ned mentions.

Spoiler

I'm assuming the dam will break when Elia Sand shows at his doorstep. I think he's going to have a lot of sleepless nights. And it will be interesting to see how Aegon responds to her.

With regards to the names that Jon might have, I know that a lot believe the name is Aemon, but I hopped off that bandwagon some years ago. I find there's just too much symmetry between Jon and the Daerons to not consider that name seriously. 

Jon is the one who introduces us to Daeron as one of his heroes. Jon is born in a tower on the Prince's Pass, Daeron is betrayed and killed on he Prince's Pass. I've been thinking for a while that the ToJ is where Daeron died. If that's the case, then there's more symmetry with where Jon was stabbed by Bowen Marsh & Co, below Hardin's Tower. We at the very least know that Rhaegar gave the ToJ it's name. Daeron was on the Prince's Pass with 5 Kingsguard. Three of them died, one yielded and Aemon the Dragonknight was wounded and captured. Rhaegar left three Kingsguard who allegedly all died (I have very high hopes that Arthur lives, because no one with the name Arthur and a super cool sword can stay dead). If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then the Kingsguard present at the tower had already chosen their king. So where a king died, another one was born. Aegon's crown was also lost on the Prince's Pass. Someone might have it in their possession though. 

With Daeron II, his father muddied the water with regards to his legitimacy. And that's what both Rhaegar and Ned have done with Jon. Rhaegar inadvertently, because he thought he was going to win at the Trident and Ned did it to protect Jon. He took a possibly legitimate royal prince and turned him into a bastard, muddying those waters further. Daeron II brought Dorne into the fold through marriage, Jon married Alys Karstark to the Magnar. And we don't know how the whole Others situation is going to be handled just yet. 

Just my take on this.

 

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's weird to jump in the middle of a conversation, but here goes.

I've been operating for years under the assumption/impression that Connington knows most everything, if not everything there is to know Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the way he introduces Aegon to the Golden Company always gave me pause about how much more he truly knows. I've even gone as far as to wonder if he was part of the "they" at the ToJ that Ned mentions.

The latter doesn't make any sense since Connington would have long been in exile by that point.

However, there is something to the introduction thing that makes it not unlikely that Connington knows more about Rhaegar's marital life - and the Golden Company and everyone else might know it, too. He could have been with Rhaegar during the abduction but he must have left him at one point - as did Myles Mooton if they both were with Rhaegar - since they both fought (and died) at Stoney Sept.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:
  Hide contents

I'm assuming the dam will break when Elia Sand shows at his doorstep. I think he's going to have a lot of sleepless nights. And it will be interesting to see how Aegon responds to her.

Elia is certainly going to be a huge issue and trauma for Connington. But Aegon is not going to care about her all that much. He may fuck her but if he does he'll also discard her. She is a bastard, and a Targaryen prince cannot hope to sit the Iron Throne if he marries a bastard. And Aegon really wants that throne.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

With regards to the names that Jon might have, I know that a lot believe the name is Aemon, but I hopped off that bandwagon some years ago. I find there's just too much symmetry between Jon and the Daerons to not consider that name seriously. 

Jon is the one who introduces us to Daeron as one of his heroes. Jon is born in a tower on the Prince's Pass, Daeron is betrayed and killed on he Prince's Pass. I've been thinking for a while that the ToJ is where Daeron died. If that's the case, then there's more symmetry with where Jon was stabbed by Bowen Marsh & Co, below Hardin's Tower. We at the very least know that Rhaegar gave the ToJ it's name. Daeron was on the Prince's Pass with 5 Kingsguard. Three of them died, one yielded and Aemon the Dragonknight was wounded and captured. Rhaegar left three Kingsguard who allegedly all died (I have very high hopes that Arthur lives, because no one with the name Arthur and a super cool sword can stay dead). If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then the Kingsguard present at the tower had already chosen their king. So where a king died, another one was born. Aegon's crown was also lost on the Prince's Pass. Someone might have it in their possession though. 

With Daeron II, his father muddied the water with regards to his legitimacy. And that's what both Rhaegar and Ned have done with Jon. Rhaegar inadvertently, because he thought he was going to win at the Trident and Ned did it to protect Jon. He took a possibly legitimate royal prince and turned him into a bastard, muddying those waters further. Daeron II brought Dorne into the fold through marriage, Jon married Alys Karstark to the Magnar. And we don't know how the whole Others situation is going to be handled just yet. 

Just my take on this.

That is an interesting take, and as I've said I find the Daeron idea not that bad myself. I doubt that the tower of joy is the place where Daeron I died, though. He is body was returned via the Sea of Dorne and the Weeping Town, indicating that he died deeper in Dorne than just in the Prince's Pass. Not to mention that it is said the Young Dragon won some victories and essentially had the Dornishmen on their knees again when he met with them to discuss their surrender and was betrayed.

And I'm also pretty sure Ser Arthur Dayne is dead.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'm also pretty sure Ser Arthur Dayne is dead.

Leave me to my delusions! 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Elia is certainly going to be a huge issue and trauma for Connington. But Aegon is not going to care about her all that much. He may fuck her but if he does he'll also discard her. She is a bastard, and a Targaryen prince cannot hope to sit the Iron Throne if he marries a bastard. And Aegon really wants that throne.

We can agree that Elia brings nothing to Aegon and his cause because of her birth. I think that the single thing I've been looking forward to in the next book (apart from whatever happens with Jon) is the Connington POVs and how he is going to navigate all of this. I think trauma is a good word though. Should be interesting. Plus who knows what he knows about the PtwP.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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16 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jon is the one who introduces us to Daeron as one of his heroes.

 

I thought it was Robb who played at being the Young Dragon? Jon was the Dragonknight and Ser Ryan Redwyne, and Robb was Daeron and Florian the Fool.

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6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I thought it was Robb who played at being the Young Dragon? Jon was the Dragonknight and Ser Ryan Redwyne, and Robb was Daeron and Florian the Fool.

What I meant was that Jon is the one who introduced us to the Young Dragon in his very first POV chapter when he was trying to make his point to Benjen about joining the NW. Before we know who Aemon the Dragonknight, Ryam Redwyne or Florian the Fool are through Jon's memories of his play with Robb, we know that the Young Dragon was a 14 year old boy king who conquered Dorne and that he was/is one of Jon's heroes.

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We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three.

I did a search and found nothing on this. This is when Jon is fighting on wall. Since he got his wish for another thousand men, whether in the form of Stannis coming to aid with near 1500 or leaving Jon the thousand wildling prisoners, could this count as some foreshadowing for R+L=J reveal? He never got his twenty trebuchets though, so I'm not so sure :P

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On 9/12/2017 at 7:51 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is certainly all possible but if it is the case we have no reason to believe it at this point. We don't know all that much about young Ned.

But what we do know is that both Lyanna and Brandon - the wolf-blooded Starks - were actually willing to do their duty. Lyanna agreed to marry Robert, Brandon agreed to marry Catelyn.

The idea that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar or had made it clear to him - or secretly wished in her heart to be abducted - isn't confirmed, either. Chances are not that good that Ned can blame Lyanna for the whole thing while we don't yet know whether she could have prevented her own abduction or not.

Once Rhaegar took her everything was over, anyway. The honor of Lyanna Stark, House Stark, and House Baratheon was smeared and damaged, and had to be restored with blood. Excuses and apologies wouldn't do. Perhaps Rhaegar could have talked to Lord Rickard but not to Brandon and Robert. They would have demanded satisfaction for Rhaegar's transgressions.

Lyanna herself is a political non-entity in all that. Her wishes don't matter, even if her brothers and father would want to make them matter - they can't agree to anything after Prince Rhaegar publicly smeared her honor and the honor of House Stark. Not without the Starks becoming the laughingstock of the Realm.

Well I've taken my own advice and started to reread, and I fear I've found some evidence that would suggest that my hypothesis is incorrect.

In Eddard's second POV chapter in Game, he and Robert go out riding at the ass crack of dawn and Robert jokingly suggests they run off to become vagabond knights, Eddard naturally reminds him of the duties and responsibilities they have and cannot leave behind, and says, "...We are not the boys we were." to which Robert responds, "You were never the boy you were." Suggesting that Ned may in fact have always been the same stubbornly honorable and dutiful man, even as a youth. Oh well. Perhaps it only served to strengthen his resolve!

But I agree, Ned would not have cast blame on Lyanna, I find it more likely that he would have felt a deep sense of regret, for what may have been prevented. And yes, she and Brandon were willing to do their duties, marry a rich and highborn lord/lady of a great house, sorry, but I don't find this to be a shining example of dutifulness. They weren't exactly being asked to marry a lustful drunk with no control of their urges, oh wait, yes she was, and hold on a sec, she didn't go through with it?

No it isn't confirmed that Lyanna went willingly, but I think it's a pretty fair assumption, given Ned's positive opinions of Rhaegar, the man who allegedly kidnapped and raped his sister.

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11 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

Well I've taken my own advice and started to reread, and I fear I've found some evidence that would suggest that my hypothesis is incorrect.

In Eddard's second POV chapter in Game, he and Robert go out riding at the ass crack of dawn and Robert jokingly suggests they run off to become vagabond knights, Eddard naturally reminds him of the duties and responsibilities they have and cannot leave behind, and says, "...We are not the boys we were." to which Robert responds, "You were never the boy you were." Suggesting that Ned may in fact have always been the same stubbornly honorable and dutiful man, even as a youth. Oh well. Perhaps it only served to strengthen his resolve!

Well, to be fair, to assume that Ned could ever have been in the same league as Robert as a boy was always very unlikely. Robert was the leader and Ned was the follower. Just as Brandon was the elder and Ned the younger brother.

11 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

But I agree, Ned would not have cast blame on Lyanna, I find it more likely that he would have felt a deep sense of regret, for what may have been prevented. And yes, she and Brandon were willing to do their duties, marry a rich and highborn lord/lady of a great house, sorry, but I don't find this to be a shining example of dutifulness. They weren't exactly being asked to marry a lustful drunk with no control of their urges, oh wait, yes she was, and hold on a sec, she didn't go through with it?

Robert wasn't that far gone back in his youth, though. He had certain tendencies but he wasn't a drunk, nor a fat whore monger. And Lyanna did not oppose her betrothal to Robert Baratheon as far as we know nor did she ever make any attempt to formally dissolve it - which she certainly could have tried to do.

11 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

No it isn't confirmed that Lyanna went willingly, but I think it's a pretty fair assumption, given Ned's positive opinions of Rhaegar, the man who allegedly kidnapped and raped his sister.

Ned may have come around to forgive Rhaegar for what he did after he met Lyanna again - or after he learned what had actually transpired from other sources. And note that only Robert believes Rhaegar 'raped' Lyanna. We don't know what this means in this context. That Robert believes Rhaegar forced himself on Lyanna against her will? Or that he merely believed he had sex with his woman? Within the framework of this story this is far from clear. Women are seen as the property of men who have (sexual) agency of their own. This is who Brandon saw things, and that's also the way Robert saw. Lyanna could have publicly testified that she rode Rhaegar six times a day of her own free will and he would still have remained a 'rapist' in the eyes of Robert.

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be fair, to assume that Ned could ever have been in the same league as Robert as a boy was always very unlikely. Robert was the leader and Ned was the follower. Just as Brandon was the elder and Ned the younger brother.

Robert wasn't that far gone back in his youth, though. He had certain tendencies but he wasn't a drunk, nor a fat whore monger. And Lyanna did not oppose her betrothal to Robert Baratheon as far as we know nor did she ever make any attempt to formally dissolve it - which she certainly could have tried to do.

Ned may have come around to forgive Rhaegar for what he did after he met Lyanna again - or after he learned what had actually transpired from other sources. And note that only Robert believes Rhaegar 'raped' Lyanna. We don't know what this means in this context. That Robert believes Rhaegar forced himself on Lyanna against her will? Or that he merely believed he had sex with his woman? Within the framework of this story this is far from clear. Women are seen as the property of men who have (sexual) agency of their own. This is who Brandon saw things, and that's also the way Robert saw. Lyanna could have publicly testified that she rode Rhaegar six times a day of her own free will and he would still have remained a 'rapist' in the eyes of Robert.

 

Eddard 9, Game of thrones

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End.

So perhaps he did already have a bit of a reputation, and perhaps she wasn't quite as willing to do her duty as we may have thought. It says nothing at all about her agreeing to the betrothal, it seems to me that she is complaining of the betrothal and would possibly have turned it down, if she had had any say in the matter.

Arya 2, Game of Thrones

Eddard: "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Here Ned tells us that he believes Lyanna's own wildness caused her death.

So I have a queston for you, if you accept that:

  1. Lyanna died giving birth to Jon
  2. Jon is the son of Prince Rhaegar, and
  3.  Ned knows, both 1 and 2

What wild action of hers would he believe caused her death? Competing as a mystery knight and drawing the prince's attention? Ok, it's possible, but I find it more likely that Ned, at the time of telling this to Arya, was aware that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, willingly, thus leading her to an early grave.

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I've noticed a curious parallel:

" Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kind and all those he loved — and half the realm besides"

"Three fires must you light"

With GRRM, it is hard to believe in coincidences as far as figurative speech is concerned...

 

A side question: don't you guys have a link to the SSM that Ashara was not in KL during the Rebellion? Thanks.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

Eddard 9, Game of thrones

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End.

Well, that is actually Lyanna being a little bit presumptuous. Men should not father bastards if they are pious followers of the Seven, etc. but nobody chides them if they do. It is the privilege of (noble) men that they get to sleep around and their women don't. And it is sign of virility and manliness if you have some bastards - remember what Benjen Stark tells Jon Snow back at Winterfell?

4 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

So perhaps he did already have a bit of a reputation, and perhaps she wasn't quite as willing to do her duty as we may have thought. It says nothing at all about her agreeing to the betrothal, it seems to me that she is complaining of the betrothal and would possibly have turned it down, if she had had any say in the matter.

The thing is - she does have a say in the matter. Lyanna Stark is this wild Stark princess, a dialed-up version of Arya who never had the compete with a more beautiful Sansa. She would have spoken her mind. You can't force anyone into a marriage in this world, not against the will of the person. People are accepted to obey their parents but they can resist. The fact that Lyanna did not resist means that she did agree to the betrothal. She may eventually have gotten second thoughts, sure, but prior to Harrenhal those second thoughts - assuming they existed - didn't lead to any actions.

And that basically means that she understood why she was supposed to marry Robert and agreed to do so.

4 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

Arya 2, Game of Thrones

Eddard: "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Here Ned tells us that he believes Lyanna's own wildness caused her death.

So I have a queston for you, if you accept that:

  1. Lyanna died giving birth to Jon
  2. Jon is the son of Prince Rhaegar, and
  3.  Ned knows, both 1 and 2

What wild action of hers would he believe caused her death? Competing as a mystery knight and drawing the prince's attention? Ok, it's possible, but I find it more likely that Ned, at the time of telling this to Arya, was aware that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, willingly, thus leading her to an early grave.

Ned certainly would have eventually gotten the complete picture - either at the tower, or prior to that, or later when he talked to the Daynes at Starfall. The reason that he doesn't despise Rhaegar and that he goes way out of line to protect Viserys III and Daenerys and her unborn child from Robert more than proves that.

However, that doesn't mean he had all the pieces back when he heard about the abduction nor that he did not despise Rhaegar then nor that he cared about Lyanna's feelings in the matter at that point. He may have been very much in love with Ashara Dayne himself but if he was he did his duty and married Brandon's betrothed - and one expects that he would have expected Lyanna to do her duty, too. Robert Baratheon was his very best friend and Lyanna spitting in Robert's face must have Ned look very bad indeed.

And it is quite clear that Ned did side with Robert against Rhaegar (and Lyanna), not just against Aerys. At the Trident Ned stood with Robert against Ned and there was no reconciliation between them. If Ned knew by that time about Lyanna's love for Rhaegar it was not as important to him as the honor of House Stark and his friendship to Robert Baratheon. Else Ned could have seized Robert and delivered him to Rhaegar in chains. Robert's own army was broken after Stoney Sept so the man was technically at the mercy of the other rebel lords. If Ned had wanted to make a separate peace with Rhaegar he could have done so.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that is actually Lyanna being a little bit presumptuous. Men should not father bastards if they are pious followers of the Seven, etc. but nobody chides them if they do. It is the privilege of (noble) men that they get to sleep around and their women don't. And it is sign of virility and manliness if you have some bastards - remember what Benjen Stark tells Jon Snow back at Winterfell?

The thing is - she does have a say in the matter. Lyanna Stark is this wild Stark princess, a dialed-up version of Arya who never had the compete with a more beautiful Sansa. She would have spoken her mind. You can't force anyone into a marriage in this world, not against the will of the person. People are accepted to obey their parents but they can resist. The fact that Lyanna did not resist means that she did agree to the betrothal. She may eventually have gotten second thoughts, sure, but prior to Harrenhal those second thoughts - assuming they existed - didn't lead to any actions.

And that basically means that she understood why she was supposed to marry Robert and agreed to do so.

Ned certainly would have eventually gotten the complete picture - either at the tower, or prior to that, or later when he talked to the Daynes at Starfall. The reason that he doesn't despise Rhaegar and that he goes way out of line to protect Viserys III and Daenerys and her unborn child from Robert more than proves that.

However, that doesn't mean he had all the pieces back when he heard about the abduction nor that he did not despise Rhaegar then nor that he cared about Lyanna's feelings in the matter at that point. He may have been very much in love with Ashara Dayne himself but if he was he did his duty and married Brandon's betrothed - and one expects that he would have expected Lyanna to do her duty, too. Robert Baratheon was his very best friend and Lyanna spitting in Robert's face must have Ned look very bad indeed.

And it is quite clear that Ned did side with Robert against Rhaegar (and Lyanna), not just against Aerys. At the Trident Ned stood with Robert against Ned and there was no reconciliation between them. If Ned knew by that time about Lyanna's love for Rhaegar it was not as important to him as the honor of House Stark and his friendship to Robert Baratheon. Else Ned could have seized Robert and delivered him to Rhaegar in chains. Robert's own army was broken after Stoney Sept so the man was technically at the mercy of the other rebel lords. If Ned had wanted to make a separate peace with Rhaegar he could have done so.

Well, she's being a bit more than presumptuous, she has heard that he's fathered a bastard on some girl in the vale, which we know is true, but overall I agree with your assessment.

On her say in the matter of the betrothal, true, she can't be forced into it, but at the very least she has some qualms with it, as far back as the very first night of her betrothal, perhaps not enough to disregard her duty to her family, but enough to complain to Ned about Robert's nature. I'll agree that many people in Westeros wouldn't look down on Robert for having a few bastards, but it seems to me that Lyanna counts it as a strike against him.

Although it's kind of ironic or just plain hypocritical if she did go with Rhaegar willingly, isn't it? Lyanna complains to Ned about her betrothed likely straying from their future marital bed, then she falls in love with a married man and helps him stray from his marital bed.

As for Ned, I agree, I don't think he could have known the "truth" (my opinion of it anyhow) until the events at the TOJ at the earliest.

But now that you mention a separate peace, you've got me thinking. IIRC TWoIaF leads us to believe that Rhaegar may have already wanted to depose Aerys, so why does Rhaegar not attempt at making his own separate peace with the rebels? Surely Robert would be too hot headed to make such a peace, but the other rebel lords may not have been. I can see the difficulty in pulling off such a political maneuver, just something I hadn't considered before.

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28 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

Well, she's being a bit more than presumptuous, she has heard that he's fathered a bastard on some girl in the vale, which we know is true, but overall I agree with your assessment.

Her presumption is complaining about Lord Robert's behavior. And to think that him fathering a bastard is puts her in the position to reject him as her future husband. And if you think about it it isn't really her place to do that. They are not married yet, and Lyanna has no way of knowing whether Robert would be faithful to her when they are married - or not. And we don't know that, either. I'm pretty sure Robert wouldn't never have grown into that fat drunkard we meet in AGoT if Robert had married Lyanna. He may not have been faithful to Lyanna all the time but he would have been a lot happier with himself and his life.

28 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

On her say in the matter of the betrothal, true, she can't be forced into it, but at the very least she has some qualms with it, as far back as the very first night of her betrothal, perhaps not enough to disregard her duty to her family, but enough to complain to Ned about Robert's nature. I'll agree that many people in Westeros wouldn't look down on Robert for having a few bastards, but it seems to me that Lyanna counts it as a strike against him.

Sure, she does, and that is presumptuous of her. From what we know Lyanna was betrothed with Robert at a rather early age - she was only 13-14 at Harrenhal, and it is said that she and Robert had been betrothed for a long time at that point. Let's say she was eight or ten years at that point she wouldn't have been opposed to the idea all that much at that point, especially since the wedding would have been years away.

28 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

Although it's kind of ironic or just plain hypocritical if she did go with Rhaegar willingly, isn't it? Lyanna complains to Ned about her betrothed likely straying from their future marital bed, then she falls in love with a married man and helps him stray from his marital bed.

Yeah, and that is definitely very intentional. However, the point of Lyanna's comment to Ned seems to be about love. Lya tells Ned that 'love is sweet' but that it doesn't change a man's nature. She comes off as very, well, precocious there, like a girl at the height of youthful arrogance. I assume Lyanna was never really in love until she met Rhaegar. And that would really have knocked her off her feet, so to speak.

It could even be that she liked Robert more or less - I imagine them playing around when Rickard and the other Starks visited Ned in the Vale - at least while they were both children.

28 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

But now that you mention a separate peace, you've got me thinking. IIRC TWoIaF leads us to believe that Rhaegar may have already wanted to depose Aerys, so why does Rhaegar not attempt at making his own separate peace with the rebels? Surely Robert would be too hot headed to make such a peace, but the other rebel lords may not have been. I can see the difficulty in pulling off such a political maneuver, just something I hadn't considered before.

The impression we get, I think, is that Rhaegar and his father actually reconciled on an emotional level. The Rhaegar riding to the Trident was his father's man. He fought Aerys' war, not his own. The only reason that makes sense is that they reconciled somehow. And one also assumes that this is the reason why Rhaegar kept Lyanna in that tower at the end of the world. I'm pretty sure she did not want Rhaegar to fight against her brother(s) and Robert, defending the man who had brutally executed her own father and elder brother. Rhaegar chose House Targaryen and King Aerys II over Lyanna and her family, that much seems clear. He also had plans to take power away from his mad father, but there is no reason to believe he intended to kill or depose him - more likely to seize power as Prince Regent and confining the crowned and anointed royal person to his apartments in Maegor's Holdfast. But if he was truly determined in that department it is very odd he didn't seize power before he marched to the Trident. He was in charge of the army. Surely that should have allowed him to seize in the capital.

We also learn from Connington's chapters in ADwD that there was a chance to end the Rebellion if Robert had died at Stoney Sept. Jon and Myles Toyne think that Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark would have bent the knee then. This indicates that Robert was the driving force of the Rebellion.

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On 15/09/2017 at 5:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

Robert wasn't that far gone back in his youth, though. He had certain tendencies but he wasn't a drunk, nor a fat whore monger.

He was already winning drinking contests as we saw at the Harrenhal tourney.

As young as he was, he already had a bastard, and he did not seem bothered by it at all, quite the contrary. I think the point of Robert Baratheon as a character is that he gets what he wants, he does what he wants, and he will live the way he wants, and everyone else around him are forced to accept it, even if that means dishonor and disgrace to those around him.

I tend to see Robert's fellings for Lyanna the way Jaime and Ned described it:

Quote

Ned: “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.

 

Quote
Brienne: "Robert did all he did for love." Water ran down Brienne's legs and pooled beneath her feet.
 
Jaime: "Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face."

Not only once, but twice. Robert's real fellings for Lyanna have been put into doubt twice by George, it's almost as if he is trying to say something about Robert. Of course, i don't agree with Jaime nor Brienne, Robert did not went to war for Lyanna, he went to war because Aerys wanted his head.

George spoke about Robert on a Con last year where he said that Robert wasn't "a real intellectual giant", and that's why he was never capable of realising that Cersei's children weren't his. George said that Robert never believed that people had courage to do something like that to him or go against him in any way, he believed they feared him.

When we learned that Robert wanted to bring his bastard daughter to court, we see how little Robert cared about the honor of his own wife. Cersei had to threaten him "lightly" to not bring the bastard, and he was enraged because of this, which was laughable. Robert was sincerely enraged because Cersei did not want to suffer a bastard at court, the child of another woman among her own children. Robert was enraged that Cersei did not want to suffer a slight upon her own honor. It's this moment that makes you realize that Robert doesn't truly care about the honor of anyone but his own.

Also, the bastard he wanted to bring to court is the same one Lyanna was talking about with Ned. It's not a stretch to say that what Robert tried with Cersei, he would have tried with Lyanna as well had she married him, and Lyanna made her views on bastards very clear to Ned.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty sure Robert wouldn't never have grown into that fat drunkard we meet in AGoT if Robert had married Lyanna. He may not have been faithful to Lyanna all the time but he would have been a lot happier with himself and his life.

For this to happen you need to ignore what Robert is.

See how Cersei treated him because of his behaviour, and how Robert had an unhappy life because of it. Robert wants to live the way he wants to live, and he wants the others around him to accept it and be happy with it as well, which is impossible.

I see Cersei as having less courage than Lyanna, she is more of a lady, she says thing, she does things, but like a tipical westerosi lady, Cersei always knew her place, even if she killed Robert in the end. Lyanna doesn't seem to understand that, she isn't a lady, she calls Benjen stupid, while she also poured wine over his head at Harrenhal. Lyanna is Arya, and Arya is Lyanna to put it simply, you can expect someone foul-mouthed that will not accept anyone trying to shame her.

Lyanna's death was a gift to Robert, but he never knew it, and this is the biggest tragedy in the series.

But Robert's life would always end up the way it did, but it would have been even worse if he had married Lyanna, because his friendship with Ned would have suffered as a result, something that did not happen when he married Cersei, who was not related to Ned.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

she was only 13-14 at Harrenhal, and it is said that she and Robert had been betrothed for a long time at that point. Let's say she was eight or ten years at that point she wouldn't have been opposed to the idea all that much at that point, especially since the wedding would have been years away.

Lyanna refers to Mya Stone at the very same night she was betrothed to Robert, which means the girl had already been born, and Mya Stone was born in 280 AC, which means Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she was 13, close in age to Margaery Tyrell, the young schemer.

And yes, a year is a long time.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or betrothed a year before the Tourney at Harrenhal, it makes sense, because George does love his symmetry.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, and that is definitely very intentional. However, the point of Lyanna's comment to Ned seems to be about love. Lya tells Ned that 'love is sweet' but that it doesn't change a man's nature. She comes off as very, well, precocious there, like a girl at the height of youthful arrogance. I assume Lyanna was never really in love until she met Rhaegar. And that would really have knocked her off her feet, so to speak.

Unless you believe that a man who fathered bastards is the same as a man who fathered legitimate children with his lawful wife. It baffles me that people think it is the same thing, it is not.

The truth is, if Rhaegar leaves his own wife for Lyanna, it means he swore a vow to keep to her bed only, and Lyanna isn't doing anything wrong, she is staying true to herself. Rhaegar has no bastards, only legitimate children, and his ex-wife is of no importance to Lyanna, because Rhaegar's ex-wife is Rhaegar's own problem.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

It could even be that she liked Robert more or less - I imagine them playing around when Rickard and the other Starks visited Ned in the Vale - at least while they were both children.

From the way Lyanna speaks of Robert, and from the way Ned assured her that he was a good men, it seems she knows only what she heard of him, which means she did not have much contact with him before they were betrothed. It makes sense as well, because Robert was five years older than her, i can't see them interacting at all until she started to get older and Robert started to notice her pretty face(if she indeed had one).

On 15/09/2017 at 5:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

Lyanna did not oppose her betrothal to Robert Baratheon as far as we know

That talk with Ned happened at the very same night her father betrothed her to Robert. One can assume that she said something to her father as well, even if it was in vain.

On 15/09/2017 at 5:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

as far as we know nor did she ever make any attempt to formally dissolve it - which she certainly could have tried to do.

And she tried, and she succeeded initially, but Rhaegar was killed and her plan ended up in tragedy.

One needs to ignore all the clues that George has left in the first book to not see what really happened: Lyanna speaks twice in the series, but only the first time matters, the time where Lyanna speaks about Robert and his nature, which in turn makes Ned wonder about Rhaegar's own nature. In Eddard IX you have everything you need to know about Lyanna, Robert and Rhaegar.

 

The hazy background of how Rhaegar "stumbled" on her while he was in the Riverlands is even more revealing. Lyanna did whatever she did consciously, otherwise there was no need for Ned to blame her for everything that happened to her.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Rhaegar riding to the Trident was his father's man. He fought Aerys' war, not his own. The only reason that makes sense is that they reconciled somehow.

If you forget the fact that Rhaegar was honor-bound to fight for his house and his children, which is the same thing for the rebels, they are honor-bound to fight for their house and family, which gives them a justification to fight against Aerys when Aerys wanted to kill them, and they had done him no wrong.

 

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

And one also assumes that this is the reason why Rhaegar kept Lyanna in that tower at the end of the world. I'm pretty sure she did not want Rhaegar to fight against her brother(s) and Robert, defending the man who had brutally executed her own father and elder brother. Rhaegar chose House Targaryen and King Aerys II over Lyanna and her family, that much seems clear.

If you forget how harsh of a place Westeros truly is, you can't expect Lyanna to think that Ned and Robert and the rebels will accept her Targaryen baby with open arms.

You also forgot that there was fear in her eyes when Ned entered in the Tower of Joy to "rescue" her. Ned was there, her own blood and kin, and she was afraid. It was only when Ned promised to keep Jon safe that she smiled to him, this tells you how she felt during the war, it was her child's safety that was paramount to her, everything else that was happening was of no matter to her compared to Jon's safety.

No, Lyanna certainly did not want Rhaegar to fight against her family, but in the end, there was no choice, he was honor-bound to fight for his family, including the child Lyanna was carrying. It wasn't a choice between Lyanna and Aerys, nothing is ever that simple.

You also assume that Lyanna hated Aerys, which is not a stretch, but i have to disagree, i don't think she had time for it. Brandon went to King's Landing to kill the man she chose, and got himself and his father killed because of it. I don't think Lyanna had time to hate Aerys, because she had a part to play in Brandon's death, even though it was Brandon who played the biggest part in his own death, something that Ned admitted.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

He also had plans to take power away from his mad father, but there is no reason to believe he intended to kill or depose him - more likely to seize power as Prince Regent and confining the crowned and anointed royal person to his apartments in Maegor's Holdfast.

Oh but i doubt that he would have been able to do this. Rhaegar said that he meant to call a Great Council once the battle of the trident was over(as if he believed his victory was guaranteed, it doesn't surprise me that he lost), and if that was truly his intention, he would have had to bring his father to justice by putting him on a trial for his crimes, this is something that the rebels would have demanded, and if Rhaegar truly wanted to bring peace back into the realm, he would have needed to make his father pay for his crimes.

On 16/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

But if he was truly determined in that department it is very odd he didn't seize power before he marched to the Trident. He was in charge of the army. Surely that should have allowed him to seize in the capital.

Huh, what? this is not how warfare works, this would only serve to create chaos and give a chance for the rebels to march to King's Landing and bring down the Targaryens. Robert was the leader of the rebels, there was no talking with him, Rhaegar needed to bring Robert down, he wouldn't gain anything by going against his father and seizing the capital, that would only allow Robert to make short work of him and his family.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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