R+L=J v.164

262 posts in this topic

On 10/1/2017 at 5:15 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

He was already winning drinking contests as we saw at the Harrenhal tourney.

As young as he was, he already had a bastard, and he did not seem bothered by it at all, quite the contrary. I think the point of Robert Baratheon as a character is that he gets what he wants, he does what he wants, and he will live the way he wants, and everyone else around him are forced to accept it, even if that means dishonor and disgrace to those around him.

I tend to see Robert's fellings for Lyanna the way Jaime and Ned described it:


Not only once, but twice. Robert's real fellings for Lyanna have been put into doubt twice by George, it's almost as if he is trying to say something about Robert. Of course, i don't agree with Jaime nor Brienne, Robert did not went to war for Lyanna, he went to war because Aerys wanted his head.

George spoke about Robert on a Con last year where he said that Robert wasn't "a real intellectual giant", and that's why he was never capable of realising that Cersei's children weren't his. George said that Robert never believed that people had courage to do something like that to him or go against him in any way, he believed they feared him.

When we learned that Robert wanted to bring his bastard daughter to court, we see how little Robert cared about the honor of his own wife. Cersei had to threaten him "lightly" to not bring the bastard, and he was enraged because of this, which was laughable. Robert was sincerely enraged because Cersei did not want to suffer a bastard at court, the child of another woman among her own children. Robert was enraged that Cersei did not want to suffer a slight upon her own honor. It's this moment that makes you realize that Robert doesn't truly care about the honor of anyone but his own.

Also, the bastard he wanted to bring to court is the same one Lyanna was talking about with Ned. It's not a stretch to say that what Robert tried with Cersei, he would have tried with Lyanna as well had she married him, and Lyanna made her views on bastards very clear to Ned.

For this to happen you need to ignore what Robert is.

See how Cersei treated him because of his behaviour, and how Robert had an unhappy life because of it. Robert wants to live the way he wants to live, and he wants the others around him to accept it and be happy with it as well, which is impossible.

I see Cersei as having less courage than Lyanna, she is more of a lady, she says thing, she does things, but like a tipical westerosi lady, Cersei always knew her place, even if she killed Robert in the end. Lyanna doesn't seem to understand that, she isn't a lady, she calls Benjen stupid, while she also poured wine over his head at Harrenhal. Lyanna is Arya, and Arya is Lyanna to put it simply, you can expect someone foul-mouthed that will not accept anyone trying to shame her.

Lyanna's death was a gift to Robert, but he never knew it, and this is the biggest tragedy in the series.

But Robert's life would always end up the way it did, but it would have been even worse if he had married Lyanna, because his friendship with Ned would have suffered as a result, something that did not happen when he married Cersei, who was not related to Ned.

Lyanna refers to Mya Stone at the very same night she was betrothed to Robert, which means the girl had already been born, and Mya Stone was born in 280 AC, which means Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she was 13, close in age to Margaery Tyrell, the young schemer.

And yes, a year is a long time.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or betrothed a year before the Tourney at Harrenhal, it makes sense, because George does love his symmetry.

Unless you believe that a man who fathered bastards is the same as a man who fathered legitimate children with his lawful wife. It baffles me that people think it is the same thing, it is not.

The truth is, if Rhaegar leaves his own wife for Lyanna, it means he swore a vow to keep to her bed only, and Lyanna isn't doing anything wrong, she is staying true to herself. Rhaegar has no bastards, only legitimate children, and his ex-wife is of no importance to Lyanna, because Rhaegar's ex-wife is Rhaegar's own problem.

From the way Lyanna speaks of Robert, and from the way Ned assured her that he was a good men, it seems she knows only what she heard of him, which means she did not have much contact with him before they were betrothed. It makes sense as well, because Robert was five years older than her, i can't see them interacting at all until she started to get older and Robert started to notice her pretty face(if she indeed had one).

That talk with Ned happened at the very same night her father betrothed her to Robert. One can assume that she said something to her father as well, even if it was in vain.

And she tried, and she succeeded initially, but Rhaegar was killed and her plan ended up in tragedy.

One needs to ignore all the clues that George has left in the first book to not see what really happened: Lyanna speaks twice in the series, but only the first time matters, the time where Lyanna speaks about Robert and his nature, which in turn makes Ned wonder about Rhaegar's own nature. In Eddard IX you have everything you need to know about Lyanna, Robert and Rhaegar.


The hazy background of how Rhaegar "stumbled" on her while he was in the Riverlands is even more revealing. Lyanna did whatever she did consciously, otherwise there was no need for Ned to blame her for everything that happened to her.

If you forget the fact that Rhaegar was honor-bound to fight for his house and his children, which is the same thing for the rebels, they are honor-bound to fight for their house and family, which gives them a justification to fight against Aerys when Aerys wanted to kill them, and they had done him no wrong.


If you forget how harsh of a place Westeros truly is, you can't expect Lyanna to think that Ned and Robert and the rebels will accept her Targaryen baby with open arms.

You also forgot that there was fear in her eyes when Ned entered in the Tower of Joy to "rescue" her. Ned was there, her own blood and kin, and she was afraid. It was only when Ned promised to keep Jon safe that she smiled to him, this tells you how she felt during the war, it was her child's safety that was paramount to her, everything else that was happening was of no matter to her compared to Jon's safety.

No, Lyanna certainly did not want Rhaegar to fight against her family, but in the end, there was no choice, he was honor-bound to fight for his family, including the child Lyanna was carrying. It wasn't a choice between Lyanna and Aerys, nothing is ever that simple.

You also assume that Lyanna hated Aerys, which is not a stretch, but i have to disagree, i don't think she had time for it. Brandon went to King's Landing to kill the man she chose, and got himself and his father killed because of it. I don't think Lyanna had time to hate Aerys, because she had a part to play in Brandon's death, even though it was Brandon who played the biggest part in his own death, something that Ned admitted.

Oh but i doubt that he would have been able to do this. Rhaegar said that he meant to call a Great Council once the battle of the trident was over(as if he believed his victory was guaranteed, it doesn't surprise me that he lost), and if that was truly his intention, he would have had to bring his father to justice by putting him on a trial for his crimes, this is something that the rebels would have demanded, and if Rhaegar truly wanted to bring peace back into the realm, he would have needed to make his father pay for his crimes.

Huh, what? this is not how warfare works, this would only serve to create chaos and give a chance for the rebels to march to King's Landing and bring down the Targaryens. Robert was the leader of the rebels, there was no talking with him, Rhaegar needed to bring Robert down, he wouldn't gain anything by going against his father and seizing the capital, that would only allow Robert to make short work of him and his family.

wow, Rhaegar's ex-wife? 

Are not we in the book forum? 

I thought people know the difference between book and show? 

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