SFDanny

R+L=J v.164

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Yesterday was my fifth forum birthday. Let's hope Winds is out before my sixth. :cheers:

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Five years. Have a great forum birthday!

:cheers:

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2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Five years. Have a great forum birthday!

:cheers:

Thanks. I celebrated it by leaving my computer turned off for the day. :D

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11 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Thanks. I celebrated it by leaving my computer turned off for the day. :D

Happy belated  Forum B-Day! :D

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17 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Thanks. I celebrated it by leaving my computer turned off for the day. :D

You have chosen...wisely.

So.

Which chapters of ASoIaF did you reread?

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On 27/05/2017 at 10:16 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Yesterday was my fifth forum birthday. Let's hope Winds is out before my sixth. :cheers:

 

Congratulations! I hope your wish come true and we can read you all discuss Winds of Winter soon.

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On 5/27/2017 at 9:16 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Yesterday was my fifth forum birthday. Let's hope Winds is out before my sixth. :cheers:

Congrats and fingers crossed.

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Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

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Why only one? There is no one piece of solid evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be a theory, it would be confirmed. All the evidence has to be taken as a collective to see the entire picture.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

Here are just a few ideas you could try:

  • The Hedge Knight shows us Prince Baelor, a Targaryen who lacks purple eyes and silver-gold hair, so Jon's hair and eye color show that he could be a Targaryen.
  • The Princess and the Queen shows Aegon II barely surviving after being bathed in the fire of three large dragons, so the fact that Jon's hand got burned by a lamp shows that he could be a Targaryen.
  • Arya horseface's father tells her that she looks like Lyanna, who was so beautiful that Rhaegar and Robert tore the realm apart fighting for her hand.  Jon looks kind of like Arya, so he could be Lyanna's son. 
  • Ned could be lying about Jon being his son because he admits he broke his wedding vows to Catelyn, which demonstrates his willingness to lie even though he wants people to think he is honorable.
  • Wylla might not be Jon's mother because Ned Stark could be lying to Robert and Ned Dayne's family could be lying to him when they all say Wylla was the mother.  
  • Ashara might not be Jon's mother because Sansa heard a rumor Jon's mother was common.  Also, even though she wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion and Ned traveled all over the 7 kingdoms during that time, they might not have been in the right place at the right time to have conceived Jon.    
  • Lyanna might have had a baby because "bloody bed" might mean the same thing as "bed of blood" which might mean childbirth (and only childbirth).
  • Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar because, unlike Robert, Rhaegar could be trusted to keep to one bed (other than Elia's).   
  • Ned never thinks about Jon's mother but he does think about Rhaegar a lot.  Even though he believes that he has not thought about Rhaegar in many years (he could be lying to himself about that -- see point #4).
  • Ned thinks of Rhaegar's mother (Rhaella Targaryen) exactly the same number of times as he thinks of Lyanna's mother (Lyarra Stark) because he thinks of each of them exactly 0 times.  If Ned spends exactly the same amount of time thinking of each of Jon's grandmothers, then Jon could be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  
  • Mormont's raven might be skinchanged by Bloodraven and might have said "king" when looking at or away from Jon.  Because Bloodraven has no better way to get a message to Jon, this might be Bloodraven's way of telling Jon to find a way to leave the Wall so he can go and take the Iron Throne. 
  • According to Ser Barristan, Rhaegar was a most puissant warrior.  And Jon is learning to fight with a sword.  So he could be Rhaegar's son.  
  • Robert jokes that he did not see many common folk in the North because they were hiding from him under the "snow."  This might mean that Jon Snow was born in Dorne and is actually the rightful king of Westeros.
  • There was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar.  Lyanna might have been melancholy as well (we hear the expression, "as melancholy as a Stark").  If both of his parents were melancholy, that could explain why Jon is sometimes melancholy as well.   
  • Jon was guarded by 3 kingsguards when he was born.  Jon Darry says that when those kingsguards donned their white cloaks, they promised to obey Rhaegar's orders.  Rhaegar made them fulfill that promise when he ordered them to stay at the tower of joy and guard his unborn child (which might have been Jon).  So that means Jon might be the prince who was promised.     
Edited by The Twinslayer

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16 hours ago, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

Hmm, perhaps this one, which is mentioned in the OP:

Quote

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. (Eddard I, AGOT 4)

Quote

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. (Catelyn II, AGOT 6)

Or perhaps this one:

Quote

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. (Jon XIII, ADWD 69)

Quote

She remembered the dragon twisting beneath her, shuddering at the impacts, as she tried desperately to cling to his scaled back. The wounds were smoking. (Daenerys X, ADWD 71)

Note that each pair of quotes are only separated by one chapter.

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Posted (edited)

 

On 6/5/2017 at 7:33 AM, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

Follow the blue winter roses. - By the time you read to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in CoK and find the winter roses in them, it's not really "a theory" anymore. I think GRRM was a little concerned that he made it too obvious, so he began dropping diversions into the story like Stannis' "fishwife" comment to Jon (good one, Stannis) and the story Davos hears when he's on the Sisters.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.   Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.   Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.   - Ned in the black cells, GOT.

So what did your dad want in that dream you just had, Bran?  It was ...hmm, let's see now .. "something to do with Jon."

Did you see any blue flowers in your dream, Bran?  "No, I'm just a kid, haven't even begun to think about thinking about studying for my poetry exams ... Oh no, there's a raven, dark wings, dark words ... 

Here's Dany in the House of the Undying, CoK, Chapter 48.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . 

Hmm, might want to pause on GRRM's choice of the word "bride" there, but let's stay focused on those blue flowers Lyanna loved so much.  Even Theon's seeing blue flowers in his dreams in Clash of Kings ...

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. -- CoK, Chapter 56.

Blue roses/blue flowers - Even Theon! if that ain't the crashing of a poetic symbolism on the heads of the readers.  

Edited by Wolves of Winter
OCD

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Quote

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy. "What's your true name?" (Arya II, ACOK)

Arya was speaking to Gendry, but I wonder if Martin was also thinking of Jon when he wrote this. Same here:

Quote

"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

"No." The Fiddler's eyes sparkled with mischief.

He has Egg's eyes.

"His true name will be revealed soon enough, to those who need to know." Lord Gormon Peake had slipped into the pavilion, scowling. "Hedge knight, I warn you—" (The Mystery Knight)

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Posted (edited)

That's is so GRRM indeed, Shmedricko.

Similar to the line when Robert said to Ned, that "you should've been the king, you or Jon."  

For the casual reader, it's revealed plainly that Robert is speaking about Jon Arryn.  But to the careful reader, this was a nod to Jon, the Jon that the 3KG died for at the tower of joy.

 

Edited by IceFire125

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On 6/7/2017 at 0:41 AM, IceFire125 said:

That's is so GRRM indeed, Shmedricko.

Similar to the line when Robert said to Ned, that "you should've been the king, you or Jon."  

For the casual reader, it's revealed plainly that Robert is speaking about Jon Arryn.  But to the careful reader, this was a nod to Jon, the Jon that the 3KG died for at the tower of joy.

 

All in the spirit of fun, I should add this to my list:

  • Robert says to Ned "you were the one should have been king, you or Jon."  Ned replies:  "You had the better claim, Your Grace."  When Ned says that Robert has a better claim than Jon Arryn, what he really means is that Jon Snow has a better claim than Robert.  
On 6/5/2017 at 0:54 PM, The Twinslayer said:

Here are just a few ideas you could try:

  • The Hedge Knight shows us Prince Baelor, a Targaryen who lacks purple eyes and silver-gold hair, so Jon's hair and eye color show that he could be a Targaryen.
  • The Princess and the Queen shows Aegon II barely surviving after being bathed in the fire of three large dragons, so the fact that Jon's hand got burned by a lamp shows that he could be a Targaryen.
  • Arya horseface's father tells her that she looks like Lyanna, who was so beautiful that Rhaegar and Robert tore the realm apart fighting for her hand.  Jon looks kind of like Arya, so he could be Lyanna's son. 
  • Ned could be lying about Jon being his son because he admits he broke his wedding vows to Catelyn, which demonstrates his willingness to lie even though he wants people to think he is honorable.
  • Wylla might not be Jon's mother because Ned Stark could be lying to Robert and Ned Dayne's family could be lying to him when they all say Wylla was the mother.  
  • Ashara might not be Jon's mother because Sansa heard a rumor Jon's mother was common.  Also, even though she wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion and Ned traveled all over the 7 kingdoms during that time, they might not have been in the right place at the right time to have conceived Jon.    
  • Lyanna might have had a baby because "bloody bed" might mean the same thing as "bed of blood" which might mean childbirth (and only childbirth).
  • Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar because, unlike Robert, Rhaegar could be trusted to keep to one bed (other than Elia's).   
  • Ned never thinks about Jon's mother but he does think about Rhaegar a lot.  Even though he believes that he has not thought about Rhaegar in many years (he could be lying to himself about that -- see point #4).
  • Ned thinks of Rhaegar's mother (Rhaella Targaryen) exactly the same number of times as he thinks of Lyanna's mother (Lyarra Stark) because he thinks of each of them exactly 0 times.  If Ned spends exactly the same amount of time thinking of each of Jon's grandmothers, then Jon could be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  
  • Mormont's raven might be skinchanged by Bloodraven and might have said "king" when looking at or away from Jon.  Because Bloodraven has no better way to get a message to Jon, this might be Bloodraven's way of telling Jon to find a way to leave the Wall so he can go and take the Iron Throne. 
  • According to Ser Barristan, Rhaegar was a most puissant warrior.  And Jon is learning to fight with a sword.  So he could be Rhaegar's son.  
  • Robert jokes that he did not see many common folk in the North because they were hiding from him under the "snow."  This might mean that Jon Snow was born in Dorne and is actually the rightful king of Westeros.
  • There was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar.  Lyanna might have been melancholy as well (we hear the expression, "as melancholy as a Stark").  If both of his parents were melancholy, that could explain why Jon is sometimes melancholy as well.   
  • Jon was guarded by 3 kingsguards when he was born.  Jon Darry says that when those kingsguards donned their white cloaks, they promised to obey Rhaegar's orders.  Rhaegar made them fulfill that promise when he ordered them to stay at the tower of joy and guard his unborn child (which might have been Jon).  So that means Jon might be the prince who was promised.     

 

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On 6/8/2017 at 8:07 PM, The Twinslayer said:

All in the spirit of fun, I should add this to my list:

  • Robert says to Ned "you were the one should have been king, you or Jon."  Ned replies:  "You had the better claim, Your Grace."  When Ned says that Robert has a better claim than Jon Arryn, what he really means is that Jon Snow has a better claim than Robert.  

 

And you can also add to the list when Cersei talked to her Small Council regarding Jon and Ned.  That the "father (Ned) would give the realm to Stannis, and the son (Jon) have given him lands and castles."  

We know Jon gave lands to the Wildlings and then Castles to Stannis.  He also presided over the marriage of Alys and Sigorn.

GRRM conveniently put it together for his readers, through Jon when he said this to Alys...

"marriage and inheritance (lands & castles) are matters for the king, my lady"

It's classic irony, GRRM has the words go through Jon's own mouth, just like when he has Jon said to Arya that, "bastards aren't allowed to hurt princes, only trueborn swords are able to hurt them."

We later learn that Joffrey and Tommen are bastards.

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In regards to

Quote

 

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

 

Reading this made me think "the seed is strong" .. which presumed Jon Arryn was referring to Robert's "bastard" children Joffrey Tommen and Mycrella ... but also could refer to Jon Snow .. the Stark seed is strong! (im surprised Ned didnt make that connection sooner tbh)

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It would perhaps be too much of a hint :-)

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On 05/06/2017 at 2:33 PM, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

Funnily enough, but perhaps because the best answers have been given already, I would suggest the one discussed here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/73080-does-melisandre-see-snow-or-snow/

Why? Because Jon being a candidate for AA/TPtwP means he isn't some random bastard, which kind of excludes the "official" explanation given by Ned of his mother being some random woman (or a fishwife). Of course, he could be the son of Ashara and Ned (the Daynes apparently having magical blood as well), but the fact that Ned kept his parentage a secret long after Ashara's disappearance suggests he is half-Targaryen.

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Posted (edited)

On 05/06/2017 at 8:33 PM, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

Hey,

If you guys have to choose ONE solid book evidence that RLJ is true, in order to convince a friend for example, what would it be ? ^^

My favourite one is from the World of Ice and Fire. You do need the background on "blue rose / chink in a wall of ice" as representing Jon, but here's the image that seals it:

"And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy."

You can almost see GRRM chortling to himself because he is as obvious as he can possible be. The "tip" of Rhaegar's "lance" -> blue roses -> Lyanna's "lap".

The symbol for Rheagar's penis (tip of his lance) places the symbol for Jon (blue roses) into the symbol for Lyanna's womb (her lap). End of discussion.

Edited by Lord_Pepsi_Cupps

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