SFDanny

R+L=J v.164

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Does anyone think that arm Sam encountered was Jorah, or someone else, say from Sommerhall?

The arm looked burned to me. 

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59 minutes ago, Alia of the knife said:

Does anyone think that arm Sam encountered was Jorah, or someone else, say from Sommerhall?

The arm looked burned to me. 

Alia, I think you've posted in a wrong thread, and it should go into spoilers here...

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1 hour ago, Alia of the knife said:

Does anyone think that arm Sam encountered was Jorah, or someone else, say from Sommerhall?

The arm looked burned to me. 

I'm clueless to what you're talking about, Alia. I don't watch the show and it sounds like from the phrase "looked burned to me" it might be a show reference you're asking about. If so, I'd post it in the GoT threads.

Good to see you posting!

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56 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Alia, I think you've posted in a wrong thread, and it should go into spoilers here...

Yes I did indeed.

(Sorry,  I was on my phone, and I couldn't see the header).

Cheers :P

9 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'm clueless to what you're talking about, Alia. I don't watch the show and it sounds like from the phrase "looked burned to me" it might be a show reference you're asking about. If so, I'd post it in the GoT threads.

Good to see you posting!

 

Awwee, thanks I missed everyone. 

And next time, I'll make sure I'm in the right place. :D

 

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Posted (edited)

On 13/07/2017 at 4:55 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I prefer Aemon too, but showJon will be Aegon... Maybe because Lyanna already knew of his brother's death :unsure:

Spoiler

Honestly, it bothers the fuck outta me that Jon's real name in the show is Aegon. I mean what the hell, so Lyanna knew Aegon died and thought, "oh well, now the name is free to use". let's hope the spoilers are wrong, but I don't think they are. the show runners are that stupid and nonsensical

in the books now, I hope Lyanna had no time to name him so his name will be Jon and that's it. what does it matter really what his name was going to be, I doubt he will change it anyway.

Edited by Nami

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34 minutes ago, Nami said:
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Honestly, it bothers the fuck outta me that Jon's real name in the show is Aegon. I mean what the hell, so Lyanna knew Aegon died and thought, "oh well, now the name is free to use". let's hope the spoilers are wrong, but I don't think they are. the show runners are that stupid and nonsensical

in the books now, I hope Lyanna had no time to name him so his name will be Jon and that's it. what does it matter really what his name was going to be, I doubt he will change it anyway.

Well, the abomination aside, George has said this about naming certain children. Take this info as you will:

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

[GRRM] Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

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Posted (edited)

Jon's real name being Aegon was a theory I worked out 2-3 years ago. Not to say I was completely convinced of it, but I thought it made sense. The gist being that Rhaegar was intent on naming the PtwP Aegon, which is exactly what he thought he did when he chose that name for his son by Elia. But with Rhaegar and Elia's son murdered, Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's naming wishes by calling Rhaegar's new son Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

It's not exactly unprecedented to have multiple Aegons in the same story; e.g., Aegon II and Aegon III during the Dance. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here with YG and Jon. Especially since we're supposed to get another Dance, with Dany and fAegon as the combatants. Who knows, maybe a similar result will take place, where the two leaders die and a sort of mutual heir is emerges.

Edited by J. Stargaryen

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“You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?”
I might get her with child.”
“Aye, I’d hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where’s the harm in that?”
Words failed him for a moment. “The boy the child would be a bastard.”
“Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, “No, but—”
“You’re bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o’ moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted.”
I will not father a bastard.”

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On 25 July 2017 at 5:44 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Jon's real name being Aegon was a theory I worked out 2-3 years ago. Not to say I was completely convinced of it, but I thought it made sense. The gist being that Rhaegar was intent on naming the PtwP Aegon, which is exactly what he thought he did when he chose that name for his son by Elia. But with Rhaegar and Elia's son murdered, Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's naming wishes by calling Rhaegar's new son Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

It's not exactly unprecedented to have multiple Aegons in the same story; e.g., Aegon II and Aegon III during the Dance. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here with YG and Jon. Especially since we're supposed to get another Dance, with Dany and fAegon as the combatants. Who knows, maybe a similar result will take place, where the two leaders die and a sort of mutual heir is emerges.

It's just really weird to associate your newborn baby with a dead baby, who by all counts, died a violent death. I imagine Rhaegar and Lyanna thought of names together, for both a girl and a boy.

Story wise, the name 'Aemon' has  been foreshadowed multiple times. Jon remembers when he and Robb used to play in Winterfells courtyard, and he (Jon) used to shout out he was "Aemon the Dragonknight." Then when he contemplating beyond the wall he thinks "...neither am I Aemon Targearyen," which gives a lot of irony if he was infact Aemon Targearyen. Also, the story of Mances baby is meant to mirror Jon's. In the current version, these people are meant to mirror people from Jon's past, when he was still a baby:

Mance's baby (Rhaegar's baby) is in danger because of who it's parents are. Dalla (Lyanna) dies giving birth to baby Aemon (baby Jon), amongst war and battle (think fight outside ToJ). The baby is named Aemon Steelsong, after Maester Aemon (which goes with Jon thinking he cannot be Aemon Targearyen). Jon (Ned) then takes charge of the baby and swaps him with Gillys baby to hide his parentage (Ned hides Jon as his bastard).

The way it's told is so obvious that it's as if GRRM is actually telling us what baby Jon was really called

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On 25.7.2017 at 6:44 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Jon's real name being Aegon was a theory I worked out 2-3 years ago.

You still cling to that thing ;-)?

On 25.7.2017 at 6:44 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

The gist being that Rhaegar was intent on naming the PtwP Aegon, which is exactly what he thought he did when he chose that name for his son by Elia. But with Rhaegar and Elia's son murdered, Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's naming wishes by calling Rhaegar's new son Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

The point there is that Aegon is a good/ideal name for a king, not the promised prince. Rhaegar happened to believe that his eldest son was the promised prince but he most likely would also have named the boy Aegon even if he had still believed he himself was the promised prince or that his eldest son was most likely not the promised prince.

As a recycled name for a king it would essentially no sense for Lyanna to name her son Aegon, too, unless we assume that the promise she wanted Ned to make was not only to hide her son by Rhaegar but also do anything in his power to seat him on the Iron Throne. But there are hints that the promise didn't contain the latter part.

On 25.7.2017 at 6:44 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

It's not exactly unprecedented to have multiple Aegons in the same story; e.g., Aegon II and Aegon III during the Dance. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here with YG and Jon. Especially since we're supposed to get another Dance, with Dany and fAegon as the combatants. Who knows, maybe a similar result will take place, where the two leaders die and a sort of mutual heir is emerges.

We have no Targaryen recycling the same name within the same generation, though. Jaehaerys I lost five children, his eldest son, Aegon, among them, yet he never reused the name on any of his other sons, nor did they reuse any of the names of the dead girls. The next Aegon pops up in the next generation.

It is the same with the children of Aerys II. They did not name all their sons Viserys until one of them lived, they picked traditional Targaryen names, most likely honoring various late family members. There was a Daeron (most likely named after Aerys' late uncle), an Aegon (after his grandfather), a Jaehaerys (after his father), etc.

It would be very, very unlikely if Lyanna actually considered it important to name her son by Rhaegar Aegon just because Rhaegar previously had named the son he thought was the promised prince Aegon. Lyanna has no reason to think her son in the promised prince nor has she any reason to believe Rhaegar wanted to name his second son Aegon even if the other Aegon had been killed.

If they talked about a name they would have reached a decision before both Rhaegar and Aegon were killed. And if Lyanna made the sole decision to give her son a Targaryen name then Rhaegar is a much more likely choice, actually, considering that he was the Targaryen she (presumably) loved.

If not, then Jon could have any name. Even Brandon or Rickard (in honor of Lyanna's dead brother and father who were killed by Targaryens). If they chose a Targaryen name then Aemon or Jaehaerys are most likely, I'd think.

And to you all:

Keep the show out of this. 

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You still cling to that thing ;-)?

The point there is that Aegon is a good/ideal name for a king, not the promised prince. Rhaegar happened to believe that his eldest son was the promised prince but he most likely would also have named the boy Aegon even if he had still believed he himself was the promised prince or that his eldest son was most likely not the promised prince.

As a recycled name for a king it would essentially no sense for Lyanna to name her son Aegon, too, unless we assume that the promise she wanted Ned to make was not only to hide her son by Rhaegar but also do anything in his power to seat him on the Iron Throne. But there are hints that the promise didn't contain the latter part.

We have no Targaryen recycling the same name within the same generation, though. Jaehaerys I lost five children, his eldest son, Aegon, among them, yet he never reused the name on any of his other sons, nor did they reuse any of the names of the dead girls. The next Aegon pops up in the next generation.

It is the same with the children of Aerys II. They did not name all their sons Viserys until one of them lived, they picked traditional Targaryen names, most likely honoring various late family members. There was a Daeron (most likely named after Aerys' late uncle), an Aegon (after his grandfather), a Jaehaerys (after his father), etc.

It would be very, very unlikely if Lyanna actually considered it important to name her son by Rhaegar Aegon just because Rhaegar previously had named the son he thought was the promised prince Aegon. Lyanna has no reason to think her son in the promised prince nor has she any reason to believe Rhaegar wanted to name his second son Aegon even if the other Aegon had been killed.

If they talked about a name they would have reached a decision before both Rhaegar and Aegon were killed. And if Lyanna made the sole decision to give her son a Targaryen name then Rhaegar is a much more likely choice, actually, considering that he was the Targaryen she (presumably) loved.

If not, then Jon could have any name. Even Brandon or Rickard (in honor of Lyanna's dead brother and father who were killed by Targaryens). If they chose a Targaryen name then Aemon or Jaehaerys are most likely, I'd think.

And to you all:

Keep the show out of this. 

Just one snippet. If jon's name was jaehaerys it would be a big indication he would be king while if his name is aemon it would indicate that he will be someone great, but not king. Aegon is kind of an open name...

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On 26/07/2017 at 10:42 PM, WeKnowNothing said:

Story wise, the name 'Aemon' has  been foreshadowed multiple times. Jon remembers when he and Robb used to play in Winterfells courtyard, and he (Jon) used to shout out he was "Aemon the Dragonknight." 

He also says he's Ser Ryam Redwyne, and Robb calls himself the Young Dragon and Florian the Fool, which is also what Ser Dontos calls himself when he's scheming to smuggle Sansa out of KL.  The upshot being, you can't cherrypick the bits that fit a pet theory and call them foreshadowing while ignoring all the others.

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2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

He also says he's Ser Ryam Redwyne, and Robb calls himself the Young Dragon and Florian the Fool, which is also what Ser Dontos calls himself when he's scheming to smuggle Sansa out of KL.  The upshot being, you can't cherrypick the bits that fit a pet theory and call them foreshadowing while ignoring all the others.

There is a case to be made for all of those comparisons, I think. None of them are like for like, of course, but the Young Dragon and the Young Wolf were both warriors who won battles and ultimately lost wars. Part of Robb's undoing was due to his marrying Jeyne, and Florian has that line about all men being fools where women are concerned; Ser Ryam was a valiant kingsguard knight, famous like the Dragonknight for his deeds. I think GRRM is being pretty pointed with those comparisons.

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12 hours ago, Eurybia said:

There is a case to be made for all of those comparisons, I think. None of them are like for like, of course, but the Young Dragon and the Young Wolf were both warriors who won battles and ultimately lost wars. Part of Robb's undoing was due to his marrying Jeyne, and Florian has that line about all men being fools where women are concerned; Ser Ryam was a valiant kingsguard knight, famous like the Dragonknight for his deeds. I think GRRM is being pretty pointed with those comparisons.

But I was responding to the claim that Jon calling himself Aemon the Dragonknight is foreshadowing for him LITERALLY being Aemon Targaryen. I was merely pointing out that he must also be Ryam Redwyne too, and Robb is Florian.

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On 7/26/2017 at 7:42 AM, WeKnowNothing said:

It's just really weird to associate your newborn baby with a dead baby, who by all counts, died a violent death. I imagine Rhaegar and Lyanna thought of names together, for both a girl and a boy.

It's not associating Jon with his dead older brother, though. It's associating Rhaegar's desire to name who he believed to be the PtwP Aegon. Combined with the fact that Elia's Aegon could no longer fulfill that role, while Jon could. Keep in mind that Rhaegar also references the Song of Ice and Fire during the scene where he names his son with Elia. The PtwP + the SoIaF... sound like anyone familiar? ;)

 

On 7/26/2017 at 7:42 AM, WeKnowNothing said:

Story wise, the name 'Aemon' has  been foreshadowed multiple times. Jon remembers when he and Robb used to play in Winterfells courtyard, and he (Jon) used to shout out he was "Aemon the Dragonknight." Then when he contemplating beyond the wall he thinks "...neither am I Aemon Targearyen," which gives a lot of irony if he was infact Aemon Targearyen. Also, the story of Mances baby is meant to mirror Jon's. In the current version, these people are meant to mirror people from Jon's past, when he was still a baby:

Sure, and story wise there has been lots of foreshadowing about Jon being a king. Yet there never was a King Aemon. Several King Aegons though. Further, if Jon does end up as an Aegon, I think he'll be Aegon VII, after YG is crowned Aegon VI.

On 7/26/2017 at 7:42 AM, WeKnowNothing said:

Mance's baby (Rhaegar's baby) is in danger because of who it's parents are. Dalla (Lyanna) dies giving birth to baby Aemon (baby Jon), amongst war and battle (think fight outside ToJ). The baby is named Aemon Steelsong, after Maester Aemon (which goes with Jon thinking he cannot be Aemon Targearyen). Jon (Ned) then takes charge of the baby and swaps him with Gillys baby to hide his parentage (Ned hides Jon as his bastard).

The way it's told is so obvious that it's as if GRRM is actually telling us what baby Jon was really called

Yes, there is a good case for Aemon. I'm convinced that it's either Aemon or Aegon.

@Lord Varys,

On 7/28/2017 at 5:39 PM, Lord Varys said:

You still cling to that thing ;-)?

What better name for a king? :)

As for the rest, we've been over it before, and I don't feel like rehashing our previous arguments.

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4 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 

 

@Lord Varys,

What better name for a king? :)

As for the rest, we've been over it before, and I don't feel like rehashing our previous arguments.

No need. I just wrote the arguments up for people who may not have read the old discussion.

And for all we know Jon could become the first King Aemon. Why not? There was no Queen Daenerys as of yet, either.

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On 29 July 2017 at 7:19 AM, maudisdottir said:

He also says he's Ser Ryam Redwyne, and Robb calls himself the Young Dragon and Florian the Fool, which is also what Ser Dontos calls himself when he's scheming to smuggle Sansa out of KL.  The upshot being, you can't cherrypick the bits that fit a pet theory and call them foreshadowing while ignoring all the others.

That was just one weak point out of the whole theory. There's many others which you have chosen to ignore or just not adress directly on basis of not agreeing with the theory. I've given all the evidence for the name Aemon, and didn't 'cherrypick' in no way, like you had decided to cherrypick just one of my point out of all the others. 

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6 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

It's not associating Jon with his dead older brother, though. It's associating Rhaegar's desire to name who he believed to be the PtwP Aegon. Combined with the fact that Elia's Aegon could no longer fulfill that role, while Jon could. Keep in mind that Rhaegar also references the Song of Ice and Fire during the scene where he names his son with Elia. The PtwP + the SoIaF... sound like anyone familiar? ;)

 

Sure, and story wise there has been lots of foreshadowing about Jon being a king. Yet there never was a King Aemon. Several King Aegons though. Further, if Jon does end up as an Aegon, I think he'll be Aegon VII, after YG is crowned Aegon VI.

Yes, there is a good case for Aemon. I'm convinced that it's either Aemon or Aegon.

@Lord Varys,

What better name for a king? :)

As for the rest, we've been over it before, and I don't feel like rehashing our previous arguments.

The main reason why I lean towards Aemon as its very likely Rhaegar and Lyanna decided on a name together, before Rhaegar rode off back to kings landing. Rhaegar himself also named his other two children, so we can assume he would be insistent to name his third one to - especially if he regarded this child important for the 3 dragon heads. I don't think Lyanna would have chosen a name all by herself once she gives birth and Rhaegar is dead. She would have stuck with whatever Rhaegar chose, for either a girl or boy, before he rode off.

So Rhaegar and Lyanna would be in their ToJ, discussing possible names for their baby. I imagine they would have chosen 'Visenya' for a girl, just because this is the only name that fits with Rhaegar's beliefs if his third child was indeed a girl. For a boy, Aegon would be imediately ruled out, because Rhaegar already had a son called Aegon - who he regarded as his heir and TPTWP. He wouldn't have  believed his child with Lyanna would have been King or TPTW, so there was no reason for name Aegon. So that leaves either Aemon or Jaehearys as likely; Aemon because a lot of Aegon's in history had a brother called Aemon, and he also respected his greatgrand uncle Aemon. Jaehearys because it's a traditional Targearyen name, and also the name of Rhaegar's grandfather who believed in prophecies.

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1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The main reason why I lean towards Aemon as its very likely Rhaegar and Lyanna decided on a name together, before Rhaegar rode off back to kings landing. Rhaegar himself also named his other two children, so we can assume he would be insistent to name his third one to - especially if he regarded this child important for the 3 dragon heads. I don't think Lyanna would have chosen a name all by herself once she gives birth and Rhaegar is dead. She would have stuck with whatever Rhaegar chose, for either a girl or boy, before he rode off.

Yes, that's my view on the thing, too. That's the only way, I think, how Jon could have a Targaryen name in the first place. Lyanna has no reason to like the Targaryens in general, she just liked/loved Rhaegar as a person. If Lyanna chose a name for her child all by herself she may have picked Rhaegar to honor the late father of the boy (since she may have known that Rhaegar was dead by the time her son was born) but it is actually much more likely she would have named the boy Brandon or Rickard, honoring her late father and brother.

But if we have them talk about the thing then Aemon and Jaehaerys would be the best candidates. The former because Rhaegar apparently was in contact with his great-granduncle and the second because it is the name of the greatest Targaryen king as well as of Rhaegar's own grandfather, a man who was apparently obsessed with the same prophecy Rhaegar was.

The idea that Lyanna cared about the prophecy and the weirdo interpretations Rhaegar may have had about it is, at this point, completely unsupported by the text. I don't think she gave shit about the promised prince thing nor that she cared about giving a special name (like Aegon).

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

So Rhaegar and Lyanna would be in their ToJ, discussing possible names for their baby. I imagine they would have chosen 'Visenya' for a girl, just because this is the only name that fits with Rhaegar's beliefs if his third child was indeed a girl.

In light of the Targaryen history it is very unlikely Rhaegar would have chosen Visenya as name for a girl. Rhaenyra was the only Targaryen to ever use that name again, and that only for a stillborn girl.

If I had to guess at a name for a girl I'm most inclined to believe that this would have been another Lyanna, or at least a Valyrian version of that name (say, something like Lyaena, or something of that sort). Rhaegar presumably loved Lyanna very much and we know that sometimes Targaryens get weirdo normal names like Joffrey or Duncan.

If he wanted a Targaryen name then he could have honored his own mother (Rhaella) or his grandmother (Shaera).

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No need. I just wrote the arguments up for people who may not have read the old discussion.

And for all we know Jon could become the first King Aemon. Why not? There was no Queen Daenerys as of yet, either.

Fair enough. Agreed about the first King Aemon, too. I think one of the issue with reading GRRM is that it's hard to know when he's playing it straight, and when he's being ironic. For example, when Jon thinks to himself, nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Is that irony or not? I think that line might well be a hint regarding his Targaryen name, but I don't see how we're supposed to know for sure if GRRM was playing it straight or being ironic. At least not until we know Jon's Targaryen name.

One thing I'm certain of is that Jon Snow is a placeholder for his Targaryen name, regardless of who named him. It's no coincidence that Jon Snow immediately reminds the reader of the John Doe placeholder.

Also, I think your arguments about Lyanna being unwilling to give Jon a Targaryen name on her own make little sense in light of the fact that she was having a Targaryen child. That constitutes motive right there. You're welcome to speculate about why you think she wouldn't have done so, but the fact still remains. And then combine that with likelihood that Jon does have a Targaryen name.

Also, if Lyanna wanted to give the baby a Stark name, then there would have been no reason for Ned to change it to Jon. Rickard or Brandon Snow works just as well, and would have made an awful lot of sense coming from Ned.

8 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The main reason why I lean towards Aemon as its very likely Rhaegar and Lyanna decided on a name together, before Rhaegar rode off back to kings landing. Rhaegar himself also named his other two children, so we can assume he would be insistent to name his third one to - especially if he regarded this child important for the 3 dragon heads. I don't think Lyanna would have chosen a name all by herself once she gives birth and Rhaegar is dead. She would have stuck with whatever Rhaegar chose, for either a girl or boy, before he rode off.

Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that Rhaegar was expecting a girl to be named Visenya. Maybe he was even certain of it. The same way he was certain that he was the PtwP, and then he was certain it was his son by Elia, yet was wrong about both. Maybe Lyanna realized that Rhaegar had gotten it wrong yet again, once he and his family were dead and she had given birth to a boy.

Again, maybe, maybe not. Maybe he insisted the child would be a girl, and he insisted that she be named Visenya. So certain was he that he didn't bother to pick a male name. You're welcome to assume all you'd like, but I see lots of room for possibility, even within your own guidelines.

That makes sense, assuming he picked a boy's name. Don't you think it's at least possible that Rhaegar was sure Lyanna would give him a girl? Because if he believed that, then he has no reason to hedge his bets and also choose a boy's name. Thus opening the window for Lyanna to make her own choice one she gives birth to a boy. Imagine that scenario combined with the knowledge that Rhaegar wanted his son and heir to be named Aegon.

8 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

So Rhaegar and Lyanna would be in their ToJ, discussing possible names for their baby. I imagine they would have chosen 'Visenya' for a girl, just because this is the only name that fits with Rhaegar's beliefs if his third child was indeed a girl. For a boy, Aegon would be imediately ruled out, because Rhaegar already had a son called Aegon - who he regarded as his heir and TPTWP. He wouldn't have  believed his child with Lyanna would have been King or TPTW, so there was no reason for name Aegon. So that leaves either Aemon or Jaehearys as likely; Aemon because a lot of Aegon's in history had a brother called Aemon, and he also respected his greatgrand uncle Aemon. Jaehearys because it's a traditional Targearyen name, and also the name of Rhaegar's grandfather who believed in prophecies.

IF Rhaegar chose a boy's name for Lyanna's child, I agree that Aemon is by far the most likely candidate. I also agree that Rhaegar would not have chosen Aegon for Lyanna's baby for the reasons you stated.

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