R+L=J v.164

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Rhaegar also named his other daughter Rhaenys - the last Rhaenys had been Princess Rhaenys 'the queen who never was,' who died in the Dance of Dragons almost 200 years ago. If Rhaegar wanted to name honour his mother or grandmother, I'm sure he would have named Rhaenys as such. But instead he picks a name that hasn't been used for over a century, meaning that just because a name hasn't been used for that long, doesn't mean that it won't be used again. Same for the name Visenya, it had last been used around the time Rhaenys had also last been used.

The Rhaenys name itself wasn't used that often but there are other female 'Rha(e)-' names aplenty - Rhaena (confirmed as a version of Rhaenys), Rhalla, Rhaella, Rhaelle, Rhae, etc. There are no such versions for Visenya.

It seems that Viserys is a male version of Visenya. Prince Aenys seemed to have named his second son Viserys after his aunt and stepmother Visenya (just as he named his eldest daughter Rhaena after his mother and his eldest son Aegon after his father) but Visenya and Maegor later turned against Aenys I and his children, with Visenya perhaps even killing the king. When Jaehaerys I named one of his daughters they created another female version of the name Viserys - Viserra - for her instead of going with the name Visenya. Viserys then sticks around because it is used to honor Jaehaerys I's elder brother Viserys, and then later on because there are two Targaryen kings bearing that name.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

At the time of her birth Rhaegar still considered himself to be TPP, so no, of course there is no such evidence. It was only the birth of Aegon and Rhaegar's new belief that his son, rather than himself was going to be TPP that retroactively made her special. But why did his views change? Only because of the comet? Or maybe also because at the time of Rhaenys's birth there was still  faint hope that he might get a second sibling?

The interesting question is what made him think he may not have been the promised prince. Did he perhaps just not want to be that guy? If he had been still convinced he was the one he would never have believed that the comet meant what he then thought it meant - that it referred to his unborn child.

However, we don't know he ever thought his daughter was special or a dragon head. That is an idea that is inserted in the whole thing because he thought Aegon was the promised prince.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

If the Targaryens didn't believe that the dragon heads had to be from the line of Aerys and Rhaella also, then they already had a potential third head in one of the Baratheon brothers. Or Aerys could have just fathered a bastard/ aknowledged an existing one, of which there must have been some, given his youthful promiscuity and proven fertility. IMHO, it is fairly clear that they were convinced that all 3 heads had to be of A&R line - and wrong about it.

Sure, but they may have thought that it must be male Targaryens through the male Targaryen line. And unless Duncan and Jenny had any surviving sons there simply may not have been any such around. I actually doubt Aerys II produced any bastards, especially not on any mistresses of noble birth. The lack of trueborn he had makes it very unlikely that he would not at least have acknowledged such a bastard, perhaps even raising him at court. Yandel should have mentioned such people if they existed.

Chances are not that bad that Aerys II was the bigger problem than Rhaella that they couldn't have healthy children. She may have contributed to it, too, but if Tyrion is Aerys' son then it is quite clear that his gene material is to blame for Tyrion becoming a misshapen dwarf.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

As an aside, Baratheons being unable to produce a girl must have been almost as bitter a disappointment to both Houses, as procreative difficulties of the royal couple.

Yeah. I actually think Aerys II desperately hoped first to have a daughter to marry to Rhaegar. He finally gave up that idea when Viserys turned out to be a boy. If he had been a girl I'm pretty sure he would have betrothed her to him, risking to wait another twelve years or so before there would be further Targaryen offspring.

But if Robert or Stannis had been girls chances are very good that he would have arranged a cousin marriage there.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Oh, but where is this requirement that 3 heads must be "of the same generation" come from, pray? You yourself insisted that Aemon's claims in AFFC that he could have been one of the dragon heads for Dany "proved" that he & Rhaegar didn't believe that the heads had to be siblings - well, by the same logic they also "proved" that they didn't believe that the dragon heads needed to be of the same, or even adjacent generations! . If only males counted, then with birth of Aegon Rhaegar already had his 3 Targaryen males. All from the line of A&R, even. So, why "There must be one more" then? If we are talking about spares for the other 2 dragon heads, then why fixation on only one? Why not 2 or more, just in case?

Well, you are right there. The fact that Rhaegar was not counting himself as a dragon head is very odd. What is the reason for that? We don't know. If you go with the Aegon-Rhaenys-sibling idea one presupposes Rhaegar thought it must be his children, if you consider only the males I do here we have got Rhaegar-Viserys-Aegon. No need for another. They are all descendants of Aerys and Rhaella.

So the criterion I consider more likely to exclude Rhaegar from the equation is the generation thing rather than him concluding that he was more important than his parents. They had a prophecy pointing to them, he did not. At least not to our knowledge.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Kevan's remark is irrelevant, he (and Cersei) just ascribed to Rhaegar motives that made sense to them. Rhaegar was on record as a person confiding in only a few select people and those 2 - and Tywin, certainly didn't belong to his inner circle.

Still, what's the point of these two people telling us stuff about Rhaegar? They don't talk about prophecy or Rhaegar's deepest feelings. If Rhaegar wanted sons this would have spread. And Tywin was still Hand during the days Rhaenys was born. It is not far-fetched to assume that he learned whether Rhaegar was happy or disappointed that Elia gave him a daughter. Not to mention that Tywin would have attended the wedding, etc. It is not that difficult to imagine that either he or Kevan truly overheard Rhaegar talking about the fact that he wanted sons for House Targaryen, etc.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Or they desperately wanted children after Rhaegar because, as we now know "dragon has 3 heads" is part of TPP prophecy and A&R didn't consider themselves qualified to be the other 2. Not to mention that having just one possible heir is extremely problematic from dynastic point of view.

Sure, there was a lot of pressure on them for both those reasons and it seems quite clear to me that this is one of the major causes for the deterioration of Aerys' mental health. His jealousy of Tywin when the man has his beautiful twins makes essentially not sense in light of the fact that he, too, had a beautiful and great heir for nearly ten years by then.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Indeed. Which shows us that at this point both Aerys and Rhaegar believed that at least one of the other dragon heads could be male, since Rhaegar's lack of sisters didn't dissuade them from the notion that Rhaegar was TPP.

The fact that they produced no viable children for a long time (including sisters for Rhaegar to marry) may have convinced some of them - Rhaegar foremost - that the prince and the other heads would be born in the next generation. But this doesn't mean they they thought women were important there. Other than savior-producing machines, of course.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Rhaegar's Aegon was a second child with an older sister, just like Aegon the Conqueror, though. The Conqueror trio were the greatest Targaryens, the source of all their position and power, those who adopted the sigil of three-headed dragon in the first place. That would look very suggestive to somebody looking for signs and portents. Particularly to somebody who "failed" being TPP himself.

That depends whether Rhaegar and the others had figured out by that time why the Conqueror and his sister-wives had chosen that particular sigil. Why a dragon with three heads and not just three individual dragons (as later Targaryens took for their personal sigil, most notably Aegon II)? The idea would be that Aegon and his sisters knew the prophecy of the promised prince and the three dragon heads, too. It is an ancient prophecy, after all, Marwyn confirms that. It may have even be a huge part of the reason why Aegon invaded Westeros in the first place. To enable the prince that was promised to do his great work when the time was right. Perhaps they even thought they were fulfilling the prophecy but I doubt that.

The idea is that this prophecy thing was forgotten either during Maegor's terror regime (when Jaehaerys I and Alysanne were cut off from their elders too early) or later still, during the Dance (I'm sure Barth and Jaehaerys I also knew about that prophecy). Aegon III and Viserys didn't exactly have much time to learn important and secret things from their Targaryen parents.

Aerys I would later have rediscovered the prophecy among all those ancient Valyrian scrolls he was reading, translating, and commenting on. And from those days on the Targaryens tried to fulfill that prophecy. Or at least some did. Aegon V tried to bring the dragons back in a different way - but Jaehaerys II believed in the prophecy.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

"There must be one more" - he was thinking before he took Lyanna, even. And apparently he thought that he had a reason to expect only_one_ more, too. Why is that, if he didn't believe in some sort of re-play of the original trio?

There is no reason to believe that anyone but us readers think that Aegon and his sister-wives were special. It is the idea of that symmetry that the end is supposed to resemble the beginning, etc. But for the Targaryens Aegon and his sisters were only the beginning in Westeros, not the beginning of their family. It goes back all the way to Valyria. As does the prophecy.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

And the Rebellion was in great part the result of actions of Brandon and Aerys, too. It wasn't unavoidable.

Sure, but in light of the Laughing Storm's rebellion and of Aerys' state of mind it was pretty obvious what might or would happen.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

You don't think that Aerys's displeasure with little Rhaenys put a lot of pressure on both of them to produce a child that would meet with his approval? It was a fairly dangerous situation for Elia as well, after all.

I don't think that this played such a huge part. I honestly think Aegon would have smelled Dornish for Aerys, too.

[WeKnowNothing]

10 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

I have a question about succession laws in Westeros.  Once it is discovered that Jon is Sansa's cousin, and if it turns out he is a legitimate child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, does that make his claim to heir of Winterfell stronger than Sansa's?  (In medieval Europe male cousins often if not usually were heir before a daughter.) Obviously it would mean Dany is not the last Targearyen, and Jon being the grandson of Aerys would make him the rightful Targearyen heir even over Aerys' daughter, right?

For Winterfell, Jon would come after any of Ned's children to inherit. Since Lyanna's children would come after Ned's, means Jon would come after Bran, Snasa and Arya. But the iron throne on the other hand, holds male heirs higher than female ones - meaning that Jon would come before Dany. Jon would come before Dany anyway even without the male preference, since Jon is a son of the first son of the King.

which as you said, is made clear when the 3 KG stay at the tower when they should have gone to Viserys (who was the next male heir). But instead they stay with Jon, who was somehow more important than Viserys? That can only be if Jon was the next heir/King instead of Viserys.

[WeKnowNothing]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Rhaenys name itself wasn't used that often but there are other female 'Rha(e)-' names aplenty - Rhaena (confirmed as a version of Rhaenys), Rhalla, Rhaella, Rhaelle, Rhae, etc. There are no such versions for Visenya.

It seems that Viserys is a male version of Visenya. Prince Aenys seemed to have named his second son Viserys after his aunt and stepmother Visenya (just as he named his eldest daughter Rhaena after his mother and his eldest son Aegon after his father) but Visenya and Maegor later turned against Aenys I and his children, with Visenya perhaps even killing the king. When Jaehaerys I named one of his daughters they created another female version of the name Viserys - Viserra - for her instead of going with the name Visenya. Viserys then sticks around because it is used to honor Jaehaerys I's elder brother Viserys, and then later on because there are two Targearyen kings bearing that name. 

There were many other variations for the name 'Rhaenys,' yet he chose that name specifically for his oldest child. He could have used Rhaena, Rhaelle, Rhaenyra, Rhae, Rhalla, etc - but why Rhaenys? It could have just been as simple as he liked the name Rhaenys - then when Aegon was born, he would have realised that he had a Rhaenys and Aegon, but was only missing a Visenya (just like Dany thinks after tHotU vision). If he had another girl, the only other 'Visenya' variation (that we know of) to choose from was Viserra. He could have made up his own new variation, but he likely would have just stuck with Visenya because it matches with his other two children. 

But anyway, I don't believe Rhaegar was trying to create a trio of Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya in the first place. If he really wanted to do so, he would have named his first daughter 'Visenya' as Visenya had been the oldest out of the original three. Yet when he does have his first child, his oldest daughter, he names her 'Rhaenys' which was the origanally the name of the youngest. So the order of the names aren't even correct to begin with - and you would think Rhaegar would have made sure it was correct if he was infact trying to create the original trio again.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, what's the point of these two people telling us stuff about Rhaegar? They don't talk about prophecy or Rhaegar's deepest feelings. If Rhaegar wanted sons this would have spread. And Tywin was still Hand during the days Rhaenys was born. It is not far-fetched to assume that he learned whether Rhaegar was happy or disappointed that Elia gave him a daughter. Not to mention that Tywin would have attended the wedding, etc. It is not that difficult to imagine that either he or Kevan truly overheard Rhaegar talking about the fact that he wanted sons for House Targaryen, etc.

It certainly is weird that both Kevan and Cersei seemed to think Rhaegar desperately wanted "sons," and that to more than one. They don't just say Rhaegar wanted a 'son' but seem to imply that he wanted two or several of them. This thinking simply could have been Lannister pride - to them, Rhaegar should feel disappointed that Elia gave him a Dornish looking daughter, They didn't have to hear rumours of Rhaegar's expectation for sons in court, it's more likely Lannisters like Cersei, Tywin and Kevan formed their own opinions on how Rhaegar would feel of only having a Dornish daughter. And then vainly compared it to how Cersei would 'gladly' have given him sons that looked Targearyen.

[SansaJonRule]

5 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

For Winterfell, Jon would come after any of Ned's children to inherit. Since Lyanna's children would come after Ned's, means Jon would come after Bran, Snasa and Arya. 

That's what I was thinking, but I want sure since this is so heavily influenced by medieval Europe. Somewhere I got the impression that in the north, or at least among the Starks, the children of the Lord have precedence over all others. 

[SerTarod]

18 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

There were many other variations for the name 'Rhaenys,' yet he chose that name specifically for his oldest child. He could have used Rhaena, Rhaelle, Rhaenyra, Rhae, Rhalla, etc - but why Rhaenys? It could have just been as simple as he liked the name Rhaenys - then when Aegon was born, he would have realised that he had a Rhaenys and Aegon, but was only missing a Visenya (just like Dany thinks after tHotU vision). If he had another girl, the only other 'Visenya' variation (that we know of) to choose from was Viserra. He could have made up his own new variation, but he likely would have just stuck with Visenya because it matches with his other two children. 

But anyway, I don't believe Rhaegar was trying to create a trio of Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya in the first place. If he really wanted to do so, he would have named his first daughter 'Visenya' as Visenya had been the oldest out of the original three. Yet when he does have his first child, his oldest daughter, he names her 'Rhaenys' which was the origanally the name of the youngest. So the order of the names aren't even correct to begin with - and you would think Rhaegar would have made sure it was correct if he was infact trying to create the original trio again.

It certainly is weird that both Kevan and Cersei seemed to think Rhaegar desperately wanted "sons," and that to more than one. They don't just say Rhaegar wanted a 'son' but seem to imply that he wanted two or several of them. This thinking simply could have been Lannister pride - to them, Rhaegar should feel disappointed that Elia gave him a Dornish looking daughter, They didn't have to hear rumours of Rhaegar's expectation for sons in court, it's more likely Lannisters like Cersei, Tywin and Kevan formed their own opinions on how Rhaegar would feel of only having a Dornish daughter. And then vainly compared it to how Cersei would 'gladly' have given him sons that looked Targearyen.

Aaah please explain the emboldened bits.

according to A Wiki of Ice & Fire, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen , Rhaegar has one daughter and one son, so where do you find "first daughter" and "oldest daughter"?

 

or do you subscribe to the theory that Dany is the second daughter and therefore the "younger daughter"?

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 25/07/2017 at 1:44 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Jon's real name being Aegon was a theory I worked out 2-3 years ago. Not to say I was completely convinced of it, but I thought it made sense. The gist being that Rhaegar was intent on naming the PtwP Aegon, which is exactly what he thought he did when he chose that name for his son by Elia. But with Rhaegar and Elia's son murdered, Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's naming wishes by calling Rhaegar's new son Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

It's not exactly unprecedented to have multiple Aegons in the same story; e.g., Aegon II and Aegon III during the Dance. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here with YG and Jon. Especially since we're supposed to get another Dance, with Dany and fAegon as the combatants. Who knows, maybe a similar result will take place, where the two leaders die and a sort of mutual heir is emerges.

Well, I still don't understand why Jon should have been named Aegon, or TPTWP named Aegon, unless there is something about this in a prophecy? I doubt the prophecy stated that the prince should be named Aegon. Maester Aemon admits they were fooled by translation, and the prince could be a princess, so why Aegon?

People saying Rhaegar wanted three children named Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys may be also wrong since if he planned that, he would have named Rhaenys "Visenya", non? And by the time Rhaenys was born, Rhaegar still thinks he is the TPTWP.

"What better name for a king?", indeed, but was the prince supposed to become a king or face the evil darkness?

 Rhaegar was never meant to be happy, but we find out he found happiness right after he discovered he was not the prince that was promised. So I guess the prince's fate is not to rule but to face evil and die.

 

 

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 02/08/2017 at 0:50 PM, WeKnowNothing said:

It certainly is weird that both Kevan and Cersei seemed to think Rhaegar desperately wanted "sons," and that to more than one. They don't just say Rhaegar wanted a 'son' but seem to imply that he wanted two or several of them. This thinking simply could have been Lannister pride - to them, Rhaegar should feel disappointed that Elia gave him a Dornish looking daughter, They didn't have to hear rumours of Rhaegar's expectation for sons in court, it's more likely Lannisters like Cersei, Tywin and Kevan formed their own opinions on how Rhaegar would feel of only having a Dornish daughter. And then vainly compared it to how Cersei would 'gladly' have given him sons that looked Targearyen.

This is very interesting.

Cersei mentions Elia was frail and if Rhaegar had married her, she could have given Rhaegar his wanted sons, but how does she know that? Kevan too, he mentions this. Lannisters knowing about a prophecy that few people were interested in or knew about? Wasn't Rhaegar very discreet and only shared his intentions with his close friends? What do Lannisters know about Rhaegar's intentions?

Could it be that after Rhaenys Elia was barren? That Aegon was never a Targaryen? Maybe Rhaegar found out and that's why he wanted another Aegon? Still doesn't explain why he have to be given that name. Maybe not something he read but a greenseer?

I still think he never eloped with Lyanna, and to fulfill a prophecy you have to ignore it.

 

6 hours ago, SerTarod said:

Aaah please explain the emboldened bits.

according to A Wiki of Ice & Fire, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen , Rhaegar has one daughter and one son, so where do you find "first daughter" and "oldest daughter"?

 

or do you subscribe to the theory that Dany is the second daughter and therefore the "younger daughter"?

 

I think the fact that Oldest here means that Aegon I had two sisters, but the oldest was Visenya, not Rhaenys. If Rhaegar wanted a third child in order to have a Visenya, the order is wrong.

[Banner Without Brothers]

I've been thinking about this theory a bit lately after my recent reread. The biggest thing that leaves me doubting the theory is the "promise". Ned thinks that the promise he made has been broken. It's fairly clear that the promise he's thinking of is the promise he made to Lyanna. I think the line is something like "he dreamed blood and broken promises". How can this relate to Jon and what does this make the promise? Back on my first read when I was fully on board the R+L train I'd assumed the promise was to keep Jon safe from Robert. I feel like that's a common assumption. Yet it can't be that, as that would have not been broken. When Jon goes to join the night's watch Ned is hesitant but he doesn't exactly take much persuading. If that was breaking the promise he'd be vehemently against it. The fact is Jon is safe in the Night's watch and Ned is content with Jon's choice.

The line in question and the several dreams and thoughts of "the promise" all come after Robert orders the hit on Dany. Something that Ned does vehemently oppose, something that he puts his own safety on the line over. It seems quite clear to me that the promise is regarding Daenerys' safety. Which is why he starts thinking the promise has been broken.

So the question again is; What can the broken promise be?  

[WeKnowNothing]

On 3 August 2017 at 11:55 AM, SerTarod said:

Aaah please explain the emboldened bits.

according to A Wiki of Ice & Fire, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen , Rhaegar has one daughter and one son, so where do you find "first daughter" and "oldest daughter"?

 

or do you subscribe to the theory that Dany is the second daughter and therefore the "younger daughter"?

 

It's the idea that if Rhaegar indeed wanted to create the three heads of the dragon, a trio of Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys, he would have named his oldest daughter as Visenya - as she was the oldest of out the original three. But he doesn't, instead naming his oldest daughter as Rhaneys, who was the originally the youngest.

[WeKnowNothing]

20 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

This is very interesting.

Cersei mentions Elia was frail and if Rhaegar had married her, she could have given Rhaegar his wanted sons, but how does she know that? Kevan too, he mentions this. Lannisters knowing about a prophecy that few people were interested in or knew about? Wasn't Rhaegar very discreet and only shared his intentions with his close friends? What do Lannisters know about Rhaegar's intentions?

Could it be that after Rhaenys Elia was barren? That Aegon was never a Targaryen? Maybe Rhaegar found out and that's why he wanted another Aegon? Still doesn't explain why he have to be given that name. Maybe not something he read but a greenseer?

I still think he never eloped with Lyanna, and to fulfill a prophecy you have to ignore it.

Well Cersei would definitely have been jealous of Elia for being the one to marry Rhaegar. And so would the other Lannisters. I don't think they knew anything about prophecy or at all what Rhaegar wanted - I feel the Lannisters had just formed their own delusional opinions on how 'Cersei would have given Rhaegar all the sons he wanted,' or how 'Cersei would have been healthy enough to bear childbirth' or even 'Rhaegar would have loved Cersei, and wouldn't have ran off with Lyanna.' All of those can be heavily debated against, so the Lannisters aren't known to be unbiased in general.

Elia only became barren after Aegon was born, his birth must have been to hard on her already frail body - so she becomes barren after his birth. He was definitely a Targearyen, as he was said to have Rhaegar's looks mostly. The idea is, that Rhaegar wanted a third child (whether it's a girl or a boy he wanted has been argued on this thread), and that's why the Lannisters must have assumed Rhaegar wanted more children, 'sons' in paticular. 

What do you mean in your last paragraph?

[Ygrain]

30 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I've been thinking about this theory a bit lately after my recent reread. The biggest thing that leaves me doubting the theory is the "promise". Ned thinks that the promise he made has been broken. It's fairly clear that the promise he's thinking of is the promise he made to Lyanna. I think the line is something like "he dreamed blood and broken promises".

Not necessarily. These dreams come when he is hallucinating in the Black Cells, and at that time, there were e.g. a couple of promises to Robert that he was unable to keep. There could even be multiple promises, to multiple people, that he couldn't keep.

As for promises to Lyanna specifically, these are mentioned on the way back from the brothel, and at that time, Ned still thinks about them as kept promises.

Quote

The line in question and the several dreams and thoughts of "the promise" all come after Robert orders the hit on Dany. Something that Ned does vehemently oppose, something that he puts his own safety on the line over. It seems quite clear to me that the promise is regarding Daenerys' safety. Which is why he starts thinking the promise has been broken.

No. The passage about kept promises comes on the way back from the brothel, after Ned's resignation as Hand because of the planned assassination. And although he did resign to show that he wouldn't be any part of murdering a young girl, he didn't move a finger to try and e.g. send a warning to Dany or something, so, no, Dany's safety is not much of a concern to him.

Furthermore, on his deathbed, Robert wants him to cancel the assassination and Ned tells Varys that much, so in regard to Dany, he made good on his promise.

Quote

So the question again is; What can the broken promise be?  

When in the Black Cells, Ned wishes he could tell Jon something. After his death, he visits Bran and Rickon's dreams and tells something about Jon. My reading is that one of the promises to Lyanna was to tell Jon the truth about his origin at some point, which, waiting for execution in the Lannister prison, he wouldn't be able to do.

[SerTarod]

32 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It's the idea that if Rhaegar indeed wanted to create the three heads of the dragon, a trio of Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys, he would have named his oldest daughter as Visenya - as she was the oldest of out the original three. But he doesn't, instead naming his oldest daughter as Rhaneys, who was the originally the youngest.

 

 

Thank you

[Banner Without Brothers]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not necessarily. These dreams come when he is hallucinating in the Black Cells, and at that time, there were e.g. a couple of promises to Robert that he was unable to keep. There could even be multiple promises, to multiple people, that he couldn't keep.

As for promises to Lyanna specifically, these are mentioned on the way back from the brothel, and at that time, Ned still thinks about them as kept promises.

No. The passage about kept promises comes on the way back from the brothel, after Ned's resignation as Hand because of the planned assassination. And although he did resign to show that he wouldn't be any part of murdering a young girl, he didn't move a finger to try and e.g. send a warning to Dany or something, so, no, Dany's safety is not much of a concern to him.

Furthermore, on his deathbed, Robert wants him to cancel the assassination and Ned tells Varys that much, so in regard to Dany, he made good on his promise.

When in the Black Cells, Ned wishes he could tell Jon something. After his death, he visits Bran and Rickon's dreams and tells something about Jon. My reading is that one of the promises to Lyanna was to tell Jon the truth about his origin at some point, which, waiting for execution in the Lannister prison, he wouldn't be able to do.

Like I said fairly certain. There is of course the possibility that it's a giant swerve. But he's dreaming of Lyanna and broken promises so while it's possible that the two aren't connected I'd say it's rather likely that they are.

I don't remember any passage about kept promises but the broken promises comes to him when he's in the black cells. The dreams intensify after the hit on Dany is put out.

Yet he's in the black cells so he knows the assassination will go ahead.

I think you've added a lot of your own speculation in here. Especially that Ned had the power to try and tell Bran or Rickon something and I don't recall anything in their dreams of Ned in the crypt having anything to do with Jon or any message. The only message that was conveyed to the boys was that Ned had died. I'd always tied Ned's appearance in their dreams to be the work of the guy known for invading dreams. Blood Raven.

[SFDanny]

50 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I don't remember any passage about kept promises but the broken promises comes to him when he's in the black cells. The dreams intensify after the hit on Dany is put out.

Quote

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them. (AGoT 318) bold emphasis added

 

59 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I think you've added a lot of your own speculation in here. Especially that Ned had the power to try and tell Bran or Rickon something and I don't recall anything in their dreams of Ned in the crypt having anything to do with Jon or any message. The only message that was conveyed to the boys was that Ned had died. I'd always tied Ned's appearance in their dreams to be the work of the guy known for invading dreams. Blood Raven.

 

Quote

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing more so than any of the  other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down in the crypts." (AGoT  611) bold emphasis added.

 

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Like I said fairly certain. There is of course the possibility that it's a giant swerve. But he's dreaming of Lyanna and broken promises so while it's possible that the two aren't connected I'd say it's rather likely that they are.

Actually, the broken promises and Lyanna don't even come within the same paragraph, or a couple of. The part with Lyanna comes only after he starts hallucinating about the HH tourney, there is a good chunk of text between the broken promises and Lyanna's "promise me".

- I'm not saying that a promise to Lyanna couldn't have been among those broken but that you are making the connection on an incorrect basis.

 

5 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I don't remember any passage about kept promises but the broken promises comes to him when he's in the black cells. The dreams intensify after the hit on Dany is put out.

Unless you can show some textual evidence that Ned ever had any ability of premonition, that connection doesn't hold, I'm afraid, not to mention that there had been quite a couple of missed opportunities to epress his concern about Dany prior.

5 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Yet he's in the black cells so he knows the assassination will go ahead.

To my best memory, I don't recall Cersei ordering the assassination again, nor is there any reason why she should be concerned the way Robert was, nor does Ned bother ask Varys whether he fulfilled his order. It seems that Dany's assassination is currently the least of Ned's concerns, and its continuation is in no way a given.

5 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I think you've added a lot of your own speculation in here. Especially that Ned had the power to try and tell Bran or Rickon something and I don't recall anything in their dreams of Ned in the crypt having anything to do with Jon or any message. The only message that was conveyed to the boys was that Ned had died. I'd always tied Ned's appearance in their dreams to be the work of the guy known for invading dreams. Blood Raven.

Well, you have those quote that SFDanny kindly provided, and whoever might have supplied the dream, the fact remains that Ned spoke about Jon in that dream and that during the subsequent visit to the crypts, both Hodor and Summer acted weirdly. Something was at play there, and that something was trying to convey some information about Jon.

Also, in future, please refrain from unbased accusations. I provide facts, and when I speculate, I say so.

 

[Lord Varys]

On 2.8.2017 at 5:50 PM, WeKnowNothing said:

There were many other variations for the name 'Rhaenys,' yet he chose that name specifically for his oldest child. He could have used Rhaena, Rhaelle, Rhaenyra, Rhae, Rhalla, etc - but why Rhaenys? It could have just been as simple as he liked the name Rhaenys - then when Aegon was born, he would have realised that he had a Rhaenys and Aegon, but was only missing a Visenya (just like Dany thinks after tHotU vision). If he had another girl, the only other 'Visenya' variation (that we know of) to choose from was Viserra. He could have made up his own new variation, but he likely would have just stuck with Visenya because it matches with his other two children.

Sure, that is all possible. But the thing is that Rhaenys (and its male and female variations) are very common Targaryen names whereas Visenya is not.

And at times the guys go back to the original version. Aegon comes back again and again, too. Viserys was pretty unpopular in the days of Aerys II with it being used after a Daeron, Aegon, and Jaehaerys died in the cradle.

On 2.8.2017 at 5:50 PM, WeKnowNothing said:

But anyway, I don't believe Rhaegar was trying to create a trio of Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya in the first place. If he really wanted to do so, he would have named his first daughter 'Visenya' as Visenya had been the oldest out of the original three. Yet when he does have his first child, his oldest daughter, he names her 'Rhaenys' which was the origanally the name of the youngest. So the order of the names aren't even correct to begin with - and you would think Rhaegar would have made sure it was correct if he was infact trying to create the original trio again.

Exactly. That is why people who like this 'recreation idea' usually suggest that Rhaegar only came up with that idea after the comet and the birth of Aegon. But while we don't know that he considered Rhaenys to be special we have no reason to expect that he wanted another daughter.

On 2.8.2017 at 5:50 PM, WeKnowNothing said:

It certainly is weird that both Kevan and Cersei seemed to think Rhaegar desperately wanted "sons," and that to more than one. They don't just say Rhaegar wanted a 'son' but seem to imply that he wanted two or several of them. This thinking simply could have been Lannister pride - to them, Rhaegar should feel disappointed that Elia gave him a Dornish looking daughter, They didn't have to hear rumours of Rhaegar's expectation for sons in court, it's more likely Lannisters like Cersei, Tywin and Kevan formed their own opinions on how Rhaegar would feel of only having a Dornish daughter. And then vainly compared it to how Cersei would 'gladly' have given him sons that looked Targearyen.

George might want to tell us things through Cersei and Kevan there. Rhaegar wanting sons is not something the man would try to keep a secret.

There is no hint whatsoever that women feature into this whole promised prince prophecy thing in any way. Aemon realizes the translation error in AFfC, but if they had been as 'open' or as 'progressive' to consider female dragon heads/promised prince companions back before the Rebellion then it would be very odd that they would never have considered the possibility of a woman actually being the promised prince. 

After all, chances are that this whole 'the dragon has three heads' phrase is part of some occult sentence of the prophecy, not specifying the sex of any of the people involved. With dragons essentially transcending gender the three dragon heads could all be female or all male or some male and some female.

The idea that would have prevailed in the patriarchal society of Westeros most likely would be the belief/expectation that all of them are male.

[anjulibai]

Perhaps Rhaegar had decided he was wrong about little Aegon being the TPTWP, just like he decided he was wrong about himself being TPTWP. 

Maybe that's the real reason he chose Lyanna. In a song of Ice and Fire, there needs to be a combining of the two - Rhaegar was obviously fire, and Lyanna Ice. With his son Aegon, there's no ice whatsoever, just fire. Jon has both ice and fire and thus can be TPTWP. 

Now personally, I'd prefer Jon's Targ name to be Aemon, but if that theory is correct, then Aegon could work, too. 

[Maia]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no hint whatsoever that women feature into this whole promised prince prophecy thing in any way. Aemon realizes the translation error in AFfC, but if they had been as 'open' or as 'progressive' to consider female dragon heads/promised prince companions back before the Rebellion then it would be very odd that they would never have considered the possibility of a woman actually being the promised prince. 

 

People who are most commonly associated with the three-headed dragon, those who first chose it as Targaryen sigil, are Aegon and his sisters. They are the most famous, successful and glorious Targaryens. That gives people interpreting the prophecy their framework - particularly since dragons appear to be part of the same prophecy also. Of course they wouldn't consider that "the promised prince" could be a woman - and, frankly, we still don't know for sure that Aemon's interpretation was correct, but that a dragon-riding woman might be a part of  prophecised heroic trio is ingrained in their culture.

 

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that would have prevailed in the patriarchal society of Westeros most likely would be the belief/expectation that all of them are male.

And there were 3 male Targaryens of the line of Aerys and Rhaella around after the birth of Aegon. There was no need for "one more", in this interpretation. There is nothing in the text that supports your suggestion that Rhaegar believed that the all the 3 heads had to be male and "of the same generation" - Aemon obviously didn't believe so in AFFC. In fact, this is circular argument - you have decided that little Rhaenys shouldn't count, then that Rhaegar himself shouldn't count, just to force the numbers to make sense. IMHO, it just highlights the fact that your "Rhaegar believed that only males could be heads of the dragon" hypothesis doesn't fit the evidence that we have so far.

 

11 hours ago, anjulibai said:

With his son Aegon, there's no ice whatsoever, just fire.

Not quite true, with northern ancestry of the Blackwoods, IMHO. Particularly since "Blood of the Dragons" MUSH run by our gracious hosts suggested that Cregan Stark's daughter by Black Ally Blackwood married back into the Blackwoods. Not quite official, but...

Also, "his is _the song_ of Ice and Fire" is not the same as "he _is_ of Ice and Fire".

[Lord Varys]

50 minutes ago, Maia said:

People who are most commonly associated with the three-headed dragon, those who first chose it as Targaryen sigil, are Aegon and his sisters. They are the most famous, successful and glorious Targaryens. That gives people interpreting the prophecy their framework - particularly since dragons appear to be part of the same prophecy also. Of course they wouldn't consider that "the promised prince" could be a woman - and, frankly, we still don't know for sure that Aemon's interpretation was correct, but that a dragon-riding woman might be a part of  prophecised heroic trio is ingrained in their culture.

But that's just the thing - do we know that Aemon, Jaehaerys II, Rhaegar, etc. took the Conqueror and his sister-wives as their reference point to interpret the prophecy? We have no reason to believe they did. They would have known much more about Targaryen genealogy than we do, being able to trace their lineage back to Dragonstone and Valyria.

It is Jorah and Dany - who basically know next to nothing about Targaryen genealogy - who connect the phrase 'the dragon has three heads' to the three-headed dragon on the Targaryen banner. But there is no reason to believe that Rhaegar etc. made the same connection.

If such hints would exist I'd be the first to acknowledge them.

50 minutes ago, Maia said:

And there were 3 male Targaryens of the line of Aerys and Rhaella around after the birth of Aegon. There was no need for "one more", in this interpretation. There is nothing in the text that supports your suggestion that Rhaegar believed that the all the 3 heads had to be male and "of the same generation" - Aemon obviously didn't believe so in AFFC. In fact, this is circular argument - you have decided that little Rhaenys shouldn't count, then that Rhaegar himself shouldn't count, just to force the numbers to make sense. IMHO, it just highlights the fact that your "Rhaegar believed that only males could be heads of the dragon" hypothesis doesn't fit the evidence that we have so far.

I'm not saying that Rhaenys didn't count. I'm trying to keep our minds open that Rhaenys may, in fact, have not been considered one of the dragon heads by both Aemon and Rhaegar. That's all I'm saying. As long as we don't know that Rhaegar thought his daughter was one of the dragon heads I'm not going to presuppose he did that.

And the really interesting question is indeed why on earth Rhaegar removed himself from the equation not just as the promised prince but also as one of the dragon heads. Because if he had counted himself among those there would have been three after the birth of Aegon. Three males in Aegon, Viserys, and Rhaegar, and three in general in Rhaegar, Rhaenys, and Aegon if we count the girls.

I'm not sure Rhaegar removed himself from the equation because he wasn't of the same generation as his children (or his younger brother Viserys) but it is one of the possible reason why he may have removed himself. Others could be an additional very specific prophecy. Some prophetic dreams he or Aerys II or Rhaella had. We really don't know as of yet.

But chances are that he didn't change his made on some whim.

[Maia]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 They would have known much more about Targaryen genealogy than we do, being able to trace their lineage back to Dragonstone and Valyria.

So what? Targaryens had been one of the lesser of 40 dragon-riding Houses and nothing that they have  accomplished on Dragonstone remotely compares to what the threesome achieved. And it is not believeable that the three-headed dragon of Targaryen sigil wouldn't be associated with "dragon has 3 heads" of the prophecy in the mind of people studying it. In fact, the 3 siblings may have been inspired by that very same prophecy to make their audacious move - and pick their sigil. It would feel like a rather contrived coincidence otherwise.

 

Quote

And the really interesting question is indeed why on earth Rhaegar removed himself from the equation not just as the promised prince but also as one of the dragon heads. Because if he had counted himself among those there would have been three after the birth of Aegon. Three males in Aegon, Viserys, and Rhaegar, and three in general in Rhaegar, Rhaenys, and Aegon if we count the girls.

 

Actually, there are some hints, IMHO. We know that the comet is significant for the Promised Prince prophecy and heralds his reveal.  Now, let's look at the timing of Harrenhal - the commonly accepted thinking among the fandom is that it happened a few months after the comet - that Elia was already pregnant with Aegon, but not yet showing. So, the timing of Harrenhal was not coincidental - Rhaegar was spurred on by the comet to make his bid for power, to seal his destiny as the tPP. Instead, he failed. And when his next child was a boy, he retroactively noticed that Aegon's conception was seemingly heralded by the comet  and also fit "born in smoke and salt" stipulation.

Now, we can be pretty confident that Rhaegar didn't consider generational difference to be an obstacle for "dragon has three heads" back when he believed himself to be tPP, because he and Viserys were actually of different generations and any other sibling he may have gotten would have been younger still. Neither did Aemon in AFFC.  

I also looks like Rhaegar  wasn't bothered by the lack of an obvious 3-rd head of the dragon  when he still considered himself tPP, if we are going either with "all male" or "siblings" hypothesis.  But after the birth of Aegon - "there must be one more".

IMHO, there is a good case to be made for Rhaegar looking back at the possible reasons for his failure and concluding that lack of the third head fitting the criteria that led him to "one more",  was the sign that he wasn't tPP, after all. We also know that he shared his reasoning on Aegon being tPP with Aemon. But there is no hint in Aemon's ravings that generational differences were ever an issue in their wrong interpretations of the prophecy - only the sex of the tPP.