How far would Samwell go to stop Jon?

[Wolf's Bane]

Samwell and the other young men dragged Jon back to the wall when he left his post to join Robb Stark's rebellion.  In my opinion, Samwell would never have approved of Jon's decision to send Mance to rescue fArya.  My question to you is as follows:

1. What would Samwell do to convince Jon to forget about taking Arya away from Ramsay?
2. How far would Samwell go to stop Jon and his wildling army from attacking the Boltons?

(Assume ofcourse that Samwell was still at the wall)

 

[Roswell]

Sam will do what Sam does best.  Talk.  He'll try talking Jon out of it.  He'll plead and even cry.  Jon won't be stopped.  When things get down to the brass tacks, Sam is a man of the watch and he will join Bowen Marsh in the assassination to stop the attack on the Boltons.

For the Watch!

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Samwell and the other young men dragged Jon back to the wall when he left his post to join Robb Stark's rebellion.  In my opinion, Samwell would never have approved of Jon's decision to send Mance to rescue fArya.  My question to you is as follows:

1. What would Samwell do to convince Jon to forget about taking Arya away from Ramsay?
2. How far would Samwell go to stop Jon and his wildling army from attacking the Boltons?

(Assume ofcourse that Samwell was still at the wall)

 

I think Sam would try to talk him out of it at first, but then Sam will remember what he himself has learned, and ultimately he will support Jon because Jon is following his instincts to save the realms of men, as his NW oaths say to do. Even LC Mormont came to this realization that the free folk were just people that needed protection as well. It seems readers have forgotten that bit of info, just as we are told people in the story have also forgotten historically correct information.

This is, in my opinion, the reasoning behind the idea that what Jon was doing was not truly against the original oaths of the NW. Jon was saving someone from a monster in Westeros. As far as Jon knew, fArya had already escaped and was out on the road/next to a lake and needed to also be saved from that situation because shit is bad all over with wars and the Other/wights coming.

• A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or . . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

 

As a matter of fact, the point that what we readers think we know as accurate history being falsified through the centuries is so key to the story that the author tells it to the readers twice! George even tells us in interviews that what we readers are told as history in the World book is purposely not accurate, that you have to remember a maester wrote it and it was written to make the Lannister's happy and so info was twisted to do so.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"Goat's milk might serve, until you do. It's better for a babe than cow's milk." Talking about breasts plainly made Sam uncomfortable, and suddenly he began to speak of history, and boy commanders who had lived and died hundreds of years ago. Jon cut him off with, "Tell me something useful. Tell me of our enemy."

"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books … either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or … well, it could be that there are no such books and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King … we say that you're the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during—"

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

 

This isn't the only time LC Mormont talks about the NW forgetting it's true vows and what they mean:

• A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

"We never knew . . ."

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

6 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Sam will do what Sam does best.  Talk.  He'll try talking Jon out of it.  He'll plead and even cry.  Jon won't be stopped.  When things get down to the brass tacks, Sam is a man of the watch and he will join Bowen Marsh in the assassination to stop the attack on the Boltons.

For the Watch!

I can see Samwell trying to talk some sense into Jon but Jon is obsessed with Arya.  I don't think there is anything short of killing Jon that would have stopped him from trying to help his sister.  Jon should have never been elected to lord commander.  He's not suited for leadership.  Samwell would feel guilty because he voted for this dummy.  However, I doubt Samwell has the balls to stab Jon.  I can see Samwell looking in with tears in his eyes as the men of the watch stab the life out of Jon.

[Lollygag]

I'm don't think anything Sam says is as important as him just being there. By saying and showing that they're family. An emotional appeal.

Jon joined the Watch not because he believed in the cause, but because he wanted to stay close to his family, and the Watch was the second-best option.

When Jon tried to leave, it's not Maester Aemon, or Jeor who convince him, it's his friends, whom he compares to his new family.

At the beginning of Dance, Jon tries to unwind with his friends, but realizes that the LC position won't let him be their friend in the same way. He can be their boss, or their friend, but not both. Pyp & Grenn soon get sent to other forts. Then Sam has to be sent away. Then Edd must be sent away. Jon is losing all of his friends (family) which is the only thing which really tied him to the Watch. We know it wasn't his vows.

Concurrent to Jon losing his friends one-by-one, we see him thinking about his Stark family more and more. Robb died fairly recently at this point. Stannis crushes any hope of Sansa and Tyrion returning to Winterfell. Jon was very alone in the world when he discovers fArya is alive, when he had believed her to have been long dead. If Jon hadn't lost his friends along with so many family members, I think he may have made a different choice.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

He really needed Sam and/or Aemon there. He truly valued their advise (more than anyone he's left with). The example I can think of is the "Paper Shield." He didn't want to send it, but when Aemon+Sam said it was necessary, Jon knew what he had to do. Throughout ADWD he is constantly wondering if he was doing the "right thing" or not. A little advise from the two people mentioned could (most likely would) have changed the course of Jon's actions. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

7 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

He really needed Sam and/or Aemon there. He truly valued their advise (more than anyone he's left with). The example I can think of is the "Paper Shield." He didn't want to send it, but when Aemon+Sam said it was necessary, Jon knew what he had to do. Throughout ADWD he is constantly wondering if he was doing the "right thing" or not. A little advise from the two people mentioned could (most likely would) have changed the course of Jon's actions. 

They could have kept him from committing treason or at least die trying to stop him.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

3 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They could have kept him from committing treason or at least die trying to stop him.

I truly think he would have listened to either one of them, especially Ameon. As far as I can tell those are the two "brothers" that would take advise from. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

10 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Sam will do what Sam does best.  Talk.  He'll try talking Jon out of it.  He'll plead and even cry.  Jon won't be stopped.  When things get down to the brass tacks, Sam is a man of the watch and he will join Bowen Marsh in the assassination to stop the attack on the Boltons.

For the Watch!

1

Disagree. Sam plotted to make Jon the LC. He actually moved strings to make that happen. He could have done something similar.

The problem with Jon is that he had no one close to give him good advice and other options. I think Sam is smart enough to have realized what Jon's priority was and try to find another solution. Or even go behind Jon's Back to do so.

[The Commentator]

Samwell is a geek.  He doesn't have what it takes to stop Jon from betraying the watch.  He will beg for sure but mostly he will talk.  I don't think he will join Marsh in the execution but he will not stand in the way either.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stopping him from doing what? Going to Long lake?

[fire&blood]

Jon isn't "stealing" FArya from the Bolton's. Why does everyone think that?  Mel said she's on a dying grey horse near Long Lake on her way to Castle Black. He didn't know Mance/Abel was going to Winterfell with six spearwives and killing people. Sorry to digress...to the OP I say no way would Sam betray Jon and participate in his assassination. Sam would impart some advice on him, but nothing more beyond begging and talking. He's too much of a follower and a coward and if it weren't for Jon, Sam wouldn't have lasted long in the NW. He's the one that welcomed him and made him feel what it's like to have friends. His loyalty is towards Jon, I think.  

[Lion of the West]

Sam would probably make some objection which Jon would ignore or stare down and that would have been the end of it. That Sam would have manage to put hard against hard with Jon is very unlikely in my opinion. More like that Sam will just swallow his objections and go along with whatever plan that Jon has.

[Nevets]

It was Melisandre's information that Arya was in the wilderness on a dying horse and her suggestion that Mance go after her that even gave Jon the idea that he could rescue her.  Up until that time, his thoughts are clearly that he can't help his sister and she is essentially on her own.  If I am Sam I might suggest that Mel and Mance aren't trustworthy and shouldn't be relied upon.

 Alternatively, he could suggest that Jon send men that he trusts and get along with to go to the area on some pretext and hope that they run into her and bring her back to Castle Black.  He would do everything he could to talk Jon out of open action by clearly explaining the dangers involved.  When it comes to political subjects, Sam knows his stuff.  

Hopefully, he would also realize that Jon was creating opposition with his Wildling policies, and needed to better explain his motives instead of being quite so high-handed about everything.

Once the Pink Letter arrives, Jon has few choices.  He can either meet Ramsay in the field, or at Castle Black.  Acceding to Ramsay's demands really isn't a realistic option. Jon evidently felt that meeting him in the field was preferable.  I think the assassination attempt was the culmination of a lot of factors, and Jon's decision to meet Ramsay in the field was merely the precipitating event, not its reason.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Sam would probably make some objection which Jon would ignore or stare down and that would have been the end of it. That Sam would have manage to put hard against hard with Jon is very unlikely in my opinion. More like that Sam will just swallow his objections and go along with whatever plan that Jon has.

Sam is a coward but he has more honor and a better sense of duty than to go along with vile treason.  No way he would support Jon's actions to send the wildlings to help Arya.  Jon's duty is to put all of that out of his mind and forget about Arya.  Interfering with the Boltons is a violation of his duties and the oaths that he took.  Let's look closely at the Arya rescue mission.  Mance Rayder asked for several wildling women to accompany him on his mission.  Now, he would not do that unless he expected to enter Winterfell.  Jon is not the sharpest guy but even he would realize what that means.  You do not need a disguise and a half dozen women in disguise just to rescue a girl in the wilderness.  Jon expected trouble and believe me, he was prepared to give trouble to the Boltons.  

[Clegane'sPup]

On 4/23/2017 at 0:39 PM, Steelshanks Walton said:

Samwell and the other young men dragged Jon back to the wall when he left his post to join Robb Stark's rebellion.  In my opinion, Samwell would never have approved of Jon's decision to send Mance to rescue fArya.  My question to you is as follows:

1. What would Samwell do to convince Jon to forget about taking Arya away from Ramsay?
2. How far would Samwell go to stop Jon and his wildling army from attacking the Boltons?

(Assume ofcourse that Samwell was still at the wall)

Let me preface this by saying Jon did not send Mance to WF. For some reason Mance went to WF. Mance was supposed to intercept a girl fleeing from her marriage somewhere near Long Lake.

If I have to guess and speculate I think Sam would have said “Yes , Jon, let Mance help your sister.”

This pink/bastard letter Jon received may or may not have occurred before he agreed to let Mance intercept the girl.

Martin seems to fancy confusing readers about the sequence of events in his saga. FfC and DwD supposedly are happening simultaneously. Check the cavil on chronology in DwD.

Spoiler

That sample chapter where Theon and Jeyne are picked up by one of the Umbers and delivered to Stannis, the one that confirms that Theon and Jeyne escaped WF, did it happen before or after Jon received the pink/bastard letter?

The pink/bastard letter tells Jon that Stannis has been defeated. The implication of the letter is that after Stannis’ defeat neither Jeyne nor Theon were found.

Spoiler

Yet, by reading that sample chapter I know that Theon is chained to a wall and that Stannis is sending Jeyne to CB with the banker and an escort.

In answer to your question number 2. I have no idea.

 

[Nevets]

28 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sam is a coward but he has more honor and a better sense of duty than to go along with vile treason.  No way he would support Jon's actions to send the wildlings to help Arya.  Jon's duty is to put all of that out of his mind and forget about Arya.  Interfering with the Boltons is a violation of his duties and the oaths that he took.  Let's look closely at the Arya rescue mission.  Mance Rayder asked for several wildling women to accompany him on his mission.  Now, he would not do that unless he expected to enter Winterfell.  Jon is not the sharpest guy but even he would realize what that means.  You do not need a disguise and a half dozen women in disguise just to rescue a girl in the wilderness.  Jon expected trouble and believe me, he was prepared to give trouble to the Boltons.  

It means nothing of the sort.  It merely means he thinks Mance is expecting some sort of trouble on the mission.  (Bolton men looking for Arya, perhaps?)  Having women along makes it more likely that Arya will believe them to be friendly, and having several along means they have enough to defend themselves if necessary.  

While I believe the mission was unwise, Jon isn't stupid enough to send anyone into Winterfell and risk a confrontation with the Boltons, and his prior thoughts clearly show that he felt that, as long as Arya was under Bolton control, he couldn't help her.

[Lion of the West]

9 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sam is a coward but he has more honor and a better sense of duty than to go along with vile treason.  No way he would support Jon's actions to send the wildlings to help Arya.  Jon's duty is to put all of that out of his mind and forget about Arya.  Interfering with the Boltons is a violation of his duties and the oaths that he took.  Let's look closely at the Arya rescue mission.  Mance Rayder asked for several wildling women to accompany him on his mission.  Now, he would not do that unless he expected to enter Winterfell.  Jon is not the sharpest guy but even he would realize what that means.  You do not need a disguise and a half dozen women in disguise just to rescue a girl in the wilderness.  Jon expected trouble and believe me, he was prepared to give trouble to the Boltons.  

I agree that Sam has honor and a sense of duty but I feel that you are understating how powerful cowardice is and Sam's relation to Jon.

In regards to the relation, Jon is the crutch holding up Sam and, in my mind, the core of what prevents abuse from other NW members. Let's not forget that Jon was, as I remember him, instrumental and the driving force behind not letting Thorne make the others pick on Sam and has been, as far as I know, been with and supported Sam, Sam's whole time in the Watch. For a person like Sam I would expect that just like with Tyrion's great, previous, love for Jamie Sam loves Jon for it and will overlook some pretty bad stuff for it. Given how important this is for Jon I actually think that if Sam puts hard against hard he might risk a breaking with Jon and here's where Sam's cowardice comes in. I don't think that Sam would dare to risk to turn his benefactor against him regardless of honor or duty. As was said by someone I can't remember, love is the death of honor and duty, and Sam loves Jon.

[The Commentator]

23 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Stopping him from doing what? Going to Long lake?

1. Letting Mance live and go unpunished for his crimes
2. Sending Mance and the wildlings to get Arya
3. Forming a wildling raid party to attack the Boltons

   17 hours ago, Nevets said:

   It means nothing of the sort.  It merely means he thinks Mance is expecting some sort of trouble on the mission.  (Bolton men looking for Arya, perhaps?)  Having women along makes it more likely that Arya will believe them to be friendly, and having several along means they have enough to defend themselves if necessary.  

   While I believe the mission was unwise, Jon isn't stupid enough to send anyone into Winterfell and risk a confrontation with the Boltons, and his prior thoughts clearly show that he felt that, as long as Arya was under Bolton control, he couldn't help her.

It means everything of the sort.  Jon knew perfectly well that Mance could end up in Winterfell.  He knew the man's propensity for violence.  He had to have known guest rights could be broken.  If you read those chapters carefully, it's clear that nothing was going to stop Jon from helping Arya and that includes violating every laws that man and the gods ever made.  Soft Samwell is not going to stop him without executing him and I don't think Samwell is up for that.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

• Letting Mance live and go unpunished for his crimes

It had already happened. What should happen next? Say "Wrong Mance. My mistake."?

7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

• Sending Mance and the wildlings to get Arya

There was no reason why he wouldn't allowed them to go to Long Lake. He just let them pass the Wall, after all there was no reason why he shoudn't do it. The NW's vow doesn't say anything about the Free Folk.

7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Forming a wildling raid party to attack the Boltons

You mean the men who told them that they are comming to attack the Wall?