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Let's speculate about the future roles of Willas and Garlan


Good Guy Garlan

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GRRM has stated they'll both play important roles in Winds, so I don't think they'll end up as mere Ironborn cannon fodder. 

Now, Willas seems smart and competent, unlike his dad. He correctly predicted the Ironborn's potential attack on Oldtown and guessed how they avoided the coast to take the Shields by surprise. I'd say Willas could be a decent strategic match for Euron, certainly more so than Mace. I also wonder if his penpal status with Oberyn will pay off in some way. Maybe if Mace dies (which seems likely) Willas will take a less agressive rule of the Reach. I don't know. 

As for Garlan, last we heard he was supposedly gathering men and ships to take back the Shields. This being GRRM, however, I wonder if we're not being mislead in that regard. After all, taking back some backwoods rocks from some nobodies hardly constitutes an "important part" in my book, but that's just me. 

Anyway, got any guesses? 

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1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

GRRM has stated they'll both play important roles in Winds, so I don't think they'll end up as mere Ironborn cannon fodder. 

Now, Willas seems smart and competent, unlike his dad. He correctly predicted the Ironborn's potential attack on Oldtown and guessed how they avoided the coast to take the Shields by surprise. I'd say Willas could be a decent strategic match for Euron, certainly more so than Mace. I also wonder if his penpal status with Oberyn will pay off in some way. Maybe if Mace dies (which seems likely) Willas will take a less agressive rule of the Reach. I don't know. 

As for Garlan, last we heard he was supposedly gathering men and ships to take back the Shields. This being GRRM, however, I wonder if we're not being mislead in that regard. After all, taking back some backwoods rocks from some nobodies hardly constitutes an "important part" in my book, but that's just me. 

Anyway, got any guesses? 

I think Willas is part of a "conspiracy" of intellectuals that exist separate from and sometimes antithetical to the Citadel and comprising at least Marwyn the Mage, Rodrik the Reader, Willas, and until recently, Oberyn and that he will come forward in that role in some capacity as a force for reason.

Garlan tinfoil 1: He will be playing the part of Loras- donning his armor, bot literal and figurative, and assuming the identity of his brother who really was mortally burned taking Dragonstone as he did Renly's,

Garlan tinfoil 2: He is already dead or dying, and Loras is assuming his identity.

As you can probably tell, I am stuck on Renly's armor and the fact that it was Loras who couldn't fit into it properly as a kind of Achilles/Patroclus symbolism in reverse morphed into ASoIaF "reality"...

If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then hopefully he's already his way back to KL to make sure things don't sideways for sis.

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ASOS Jaime I: Downriver, the rising sun shimmered against the wind-whipped surface of the river. The south shore was red clay, smooth as any road. Smaller streams fed into the greater, and the rotting trunks of drowned trees clung to the banks. The north shore was wilder. High rocky bluffs rose twenty feet above them, crowned by stands of beech, oak, and chestnut. Jaime spied a watchtower on the heights ahead, growing taller with every stroke of the oars. Long before they were upon it, he knew that it stood abandoned, its weathered stones overgrown with climbing roses.

This is as Jaime and Brienne make their escape down the Red Fork. Don't recall if this is still Tully land or not, but someone isn't watching and the Tyrell's are sneaking in. Or, my take on it anyhow.

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2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

GRRM has stated they'll both play important roles in Winds, so I don't think they'll end up as mere Ironborn cannon fodder. 

Agreed. Especially Willas is likely to be set up as a character of some significance. He has been set up for three books now and is in the position to become one of the most powerful players in the later half of the series. Also keep in mind that there are three weirwood heart trees in the godswood of Highgarden, the Three Singers. That was a considerable surprise and could become relevant later on with the Others plot.

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Now, Willas seems smart and competent, unlike his dad. He correctly predicted the Ironborn's potential attack on Oldtown and guessed how they avoided the coast to take the Shields by surprise. I'd say Willas could be a decent strategic match for Euron, certainly more so than Mace. I also wonder if his penpal status with Oberyn will pay off in some way. Maybe if Mace dies (which seems likely) Willas will take a less agressive rule of the Reach. I don't know. 

I think Willas will lead the Reach back into the Targaryen camp, first, possibly, to Aegon and then to Daenerys. He is as of yet unwed and as new Lord of Highgarden he could become a very interesting potential consort for Daenerys.

His connection with Oberyn as well as his intelligence should allow him push his people to go along with an alliance with Aegon even if Dorne joins him first. Under a less thoughtful man this could prove to be a problem in getting the Lords of the Reach to declare for Aegon on a larger scale.

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

As for Garlan, last we heard he was supposedly gathering men and ships to take back the Shields. This being GRRM, however, I wonder if we're not being mislead in that regard. After all, taking back some backwoods rocks from some nobodies hardly constitutes an "important part" in my book, but that's just me. 

Anyway, got any guesses? 

Both Willas and Garlan are right now involved in the Shield Islands thing, although it is more likely that Garlan is going to do the actual commanding in battle stuff. 'The Forsaken' made it pretty clear that the Ironborn on the Shield Islands are on their own. Euron is not going to help them, making it very likely that Garlan and Willas will take them back. 

Both Garlan and Willas are likely only to show up after this has happened, though. No POV is going to witness the battles for the Shield Islands.

Willas and Garlan are either going to be (re-)introduced through POVs visiting the Reach/Highgarden (Arianne or Connington could do that after the Tyrell army marching against Storm's End is defeated) or Areo Hotah (if his quest from the Dayne lands brings him to the Reach for some reason thereafter) or by POVs who are already in the Reach right now (Samwell, Aeron) but all those possibilities indicates that this can only happen later in TWoW.

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A might bit crack-potty, but there a 9 major houses in the books. All of them seem strongly associated with elements, of which there are four. Each house seems to have a secondary element association. I originally aligned Tyrell with Earth, but they're really growth, and all four elements are equally important for growth. May be some clues here or not, right now it's more of an exercise to find patterns.

Interesting the Citadel, the center of knowledge in Westeros, is tied to the Tyrells. @Lord Varys pointed out above about the 3 singers which might connect to The Song of Ice and Fire.

Earth

Primary – Lannister (The Rock, mines)
Primary – Stark (trees, underground, stone)

Secondary – Arryn (Mountains)
Secondary – Martel (sand)

Fire

Primary – Martel (sun)
Primary – Targs (duh)

Secondary – Lannister (lion as sun, gold)
Secondary – Tully (Kissed by Fire)

Water

Primary – Tully (fish, rivers)
Primary – Greyjoy (What is dead may never die)

Secondary – Stark (ice, snow)
Secondary – Baratheon (descended from Elenei, the daughter of the sea god, and the source of their black hair)

Air

Primary – Baratheon (storm)
Primary – Arryn (Eyrie, as High as Honor)

Secondary – Targs (flight via dragon)
Secondary – Greyjoy (Sailing requires wind)

All Four (Fire, Earth, Water, Air)

Tyrell: Associated with growth, and all four elements are equally necessary for that.

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4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

GRRM has stated they'll both play important roles in Winds, so I don't think they'll end up as mere Ironborn cannon fodder. 

Now, Willas seems smart and competent, unlike his dad. He correctly predicted the Ironborn's potential attack on Oldtown and guessed how they avoided the coast to take the Shields by surprise. I'd say Willas could be a decent strategic match for Euron, certainly more so than Mace. I also wonder if his penpal status with Oberyn will pay off in some way. Maybe if Mace dies (which seems likely) Willas will take a less agressive rule of the Reach. I don't know. 

As for Garlan, last we heard he was supposedly gathering men and ships to take back the Shields. This being GRRM, however, I wonder if we're not being mislead in that regard. After all, taking back some backwoods rocks from some nobodies hardly constitutes an "important part" in my book, but that's just me. 

Anyway, got any guesses? 

Willas is a potential suitor for Dany. 

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I think Euron will need to do a lot of damage to make an impact as a villain of the series so late in the game, and he'll need to kill off people we like to make such an impact. Garlan Tyrell is one of those people. He's a good man, he's one of the most skilled (and underrated) fighters in Westeros, he's just become the head of a cadet branch, and he's the only Tyrell brother who's happily married at the moment. He also hasn't made that much of an impact yet, so whatever he ends up doing, I think his final contribution will be dying tragically.

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^ Agreed. Garlan is toast. He'll most likely be one of the first big causalities against Euron. Willas is a wildcard. I can see him allying with Aegon or Dany if/when Cersei inevitably does something to Margaery. For all we know, he could already be in touch with Doran and open to working with the Dornish too. 

I do like your theory about Garlan and Loras swapping armor and identities, though. Only because I like callbacks and I don't want Loras to have been burnt. 

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3 hours ago, hiemal said:

I think Willas is part of a "conspiracy" of intellectuals that exist separate from and sometimes antithetical to the Citadel and comprising at least Marwyn the Mage, Rodrik the Reader, Willas, and until recently, Oberyn and that he will come forward in that role in some capacity as a force for reason.

A Marvel's Illuminati-like group sounds badass. Barbrey Dustin would fit in there too.

18 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I think Euron will need to do a lot of damage to make an impact as a villain of the series so late in the game, and he'll need to kill off people we like to make such an impact. Garlan Tyrell is one of those people. He's a good man, he's one of the most skilled (and underrated) fighters in Westeros, he's just become the head of a cadet branch, and he's the only Tyrell brother who's happily married at the moment. He also hasn't made that much of an impact yet, so whatever he ends up doing, I think his final contribution will be dying tragically.

I refuse to believe Garlan will die without showing us his dark side first. Good people are rare enough in Westeros as it is, and good knights are the rarest of all. I still think he might've poisoned Joffrey. 

I mean, are we supposed to believe this guy just happens to be super nice, likeable, talented and handsome to boot? Like, what kind of Chris Hemsworth.

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There are 4 Stark kids who incidentally are all strongly associated with a different element. There are also 4 Tyrell kids. So maybe a compare/contrast with Stark kids will reveal things?

Bran/Earth, Jon/Fire, Arya/Water, Sansa/Air.

Willas always reminded of Bran, and both are bound to the earth so to speak.

Marg is political and charming, so maybe there will be further parallels with Sansa.

Loras seems to be headed onto a revenge kick - Arya. I remember Cat thinking that Renly's armor is like water. Loras tries to "pour" himself into it, but can't. Arya as a FM "pours" herself into skin like Loras tried to with Renly's armor.

Garlan is a knight, one of the good ones. The good knights in the series are the Watch. Maybe there will be parallels with Jon.

Maybe parallels can be found between Olena & Mace with other Starks?

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45 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I refuse to believe Garlan will die without showing us his dark side first. Good people are rare enough in Westeros as it is, and good knights are the rarest of all. I still think he might've poisoned Joffrey. 

I mean, are we supposed to believe this guy just happens to be super nice, likeable, talented and handsome to boot? Like, what kind of Chris Hemsworth.

Why can't we just have him be what he is? A modest, good man who fights honourably and is in a stable relationship. Contrary to what the show would have us believe, there are quite a few average, decent people in the books who are more often than not in the background. People like Kevan Lannister, Addam Marbrand, Perwyn Frey, Daven Lannister, the Glovers, Smalljon Umber, Wendel Manderly, Robar Royce, Balon Swann, etc.

Also, you're literally called Good Guy Garlan. Why do you want to see his dark side??

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I didn't know there would be more of Willas and Garlan! I'm glad about that: I'm curious to know Willas (who wasn't, during ASoS?), and Garlan was a nice guy to have around. On @Good Guy Garlan 's wish, I'm inclined to think Garlan can't help being a nice guy, but so far we have only seen him dealing with allies... Even in the Battle of the Blackwater, all we know is he donned an armor.

As a side note, I suspect Lord Leyton Hightower might be actually dead, instead of hiding in his tower for more than a decade. Because his sons, specially Baelor, should have little interest in pretending him to be alive, maybe Willas and Garlan are somehow involved in pretending their mother's father is still alive. Of course this is a wild guess, but at least it could be relevant to the topic :)

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5 hours ago, hiemal said:

I think Willas is part of a "conspiracy" of intellectuals that exist separate from and sometimes antithetical to the Citadel and comprising at least Marwyn the Mage, Rodrik the Reader, Willas, and until recently, Oberyn and that he will come forward in that role in some capacity as a force for reason.

Garlan tinfoil 1: He will be playing the part of Loras- donning his armor, bot literal and figurative, and assuming the identity of his brother who really was mortally burned taking Dragonstone as he did Renly's,

Garlan tinfoil 2: He is already dead or dying, and Loras is assuming his identity.

As you can probably tell, I am stuck on Renly's armor and the fact that it was Loras who couldn't fit into it properly as a kind of Achilles/Patroclus symbolism in reverse morphed into ASoIaF "reality"...

If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then hopefully he's already his way back to KL to make sure things don't sideways for sis.

I always liked the idea that Willas and Oberyn having been working together.

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Willas strikes a bit of that Fisher King vibe. He has a lame leg, he hangs out in a garden (floating down the Mander, fishing maybe?), and he is likely to become the lord of the Reach. 

I can see the Reach becoming desolate after the unrelenting ironborn attacks and in need for a Percevalean knight on a quest to obtain some sort of relic in an attempt to save it and Willas too. I'm thinking it will be Brienne, perhaps, or Jaime.

This will all come to naught because it's ASOIAF and there are no happy endings.

Garland will play the role reminiscent of the honest and gallant Sir Gawain, who fought and beheaded the enchanted Green Knight.

Again, this will turn out to be an inverting of the trope and end in horrible tragedy because GRRM.  

 

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9 hours ago, James Steller said:

I think Euron will need to do a lot of damage to make an impact as a villain of the series so late in the game, and he'll need to kill off people we like to make such an impact. Garlan Tyrell is one of those people. He's a good man, he's one of the most skilled (and underrated) fighters in Westeros, he's just become the head of a cadet branch, and he's the only Tyrell brother who's happily married at the moment. He also hasn't made that much of an impact yet, so whatever he ends up doing, I think his final contribution will be dying tragically.

Garlan is essentially an extra. His death won't make all that much of an impression as to Euron's importance. Euron is likely to crush the Redwyne fleet, kill Paxter, take the Arbor, and possibly even Oldtown thereafter (although I don't think the latter is going to happen). Thereafter his next move - after realizing that Dany is not coming soon and some other Targaryen has shown up out of nowhere, winning the allegiance of Dorne - should be to take and burn the Water Gardens and Sunspear, butchering both Doran and Trystane Martell in the process (assuming they both don't get away in time).

That should establish him as a main threat. He would kill actually relevant people to the plot, not just some extra.

Garlan is at the mouth of the Mander right now, preparing to retake the Shields, and Euron has already made it clear he won't come to aid of the fools back there.

Once the Redwyne fleet and Hightower ships challenging Euron right now are destroyed it is very unlikely the Reach is going to challenge Euron in any direct way. They will be completely at the mercy of the Ironborn.

9 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I refuse to believe Garlan will die without showing us his dark side first. Good people are rare enough in Westeros as it is, and good knights are the rarest of all. I still think he might've poisoned Joffrey. 

He has shown that dark side already. He is most likely the guy who did the actual poisoning due to the Lady Olenna's physical size. She would have to throw the strangler into the chalice. And even if he didn't - and say Left or Right put the Strangler into the chalice without even being mentioned in the text by anyone - then Garlan (as well as Alerie and Margaery) were clearly in on the plan because he was the one who constantly hailed Tyrion as a hero, making sure the man would never suspect him or his grandmother.

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Most of Westeros confuse Mace’s love for family and his non committed attitude to war as stupidity. I don’t think it’s the case. By refusing to commit so many troops against Robert he made sure that the Tyrells were still a force to reckon with, irrespective on who ends up on the Iron Throne.  It also might had forced Robert’s hand not to give Stannis (whose married to a Florent), the Stormlands when Joffrey came to age. Joffrey was Robert’s heir which means that he was entitled to dragonstone while Stannis had a bigger claim to the Stormlands then Renly did. 


Mace took the same approach during the war of 5 kings. He allowed the wolf and the lion to bleed one another and he only committed his troops when the benefits were high and the victory was certain (ie blackwater’s bay).  He also made sure to keep his 2 important sons (ie Willas and Willas’ heir Garlan) out of it as much as possible. Garlan had a minor role in the battle of blackwater’s bay but I suspect its due to him needing leverage to claim Brightwater’s keep.


At this stage, the Tyrells still hold a frightening big army and they haven’t burnt bridges with anyone (apart from Stannis who is as good as dead).  That’s a luxury barely no one can afford. If Aegon wins then he will be reminded that the Tyrells fought for his father and they have a 60k army to back their claim. If Danny wins, they will remind her of the same + that Willas and his 60k army are available if only the queen marries him. The same offer can be extended to Sansa or Jon Snow (ie through Sansa) if by some miracle they are able to raise enough troops to unite the Vale, the Riverlands and the North under 1 banner. If Margaery ends up with child that things can get even better for them especially if the Targs win. Someone needs to rule CR and the choice to that is rather dire. Danny would have to choose between

a- Tywin's yes man
b- A kinslayer
c- 2 kingslayers (Jamie killed Danny's father)

Whose more appropriate for the role then someone whose got the Tyrells blood in him? The Tyrells had always been loyal to the Targs haven't they?

If Danny arrives in Westeros with dragons and she agrees in marrying Willas Tyrell then she would be queen of Westeros in a forthnight. Garlan would then become Mace's heir and Margaery will be pardoned only to either marry Aegon and become Lady of the Stormlands (if she's not with child and Aegon bends the knee peacefully) or as regent to CR until her boy is at age. 


 

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11 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

A Marvel's Illuminati-like group sounds badass. Barbrey Dustin would fit in there too.

I refuse to believe Garlan will die without showing us his dark side first. Good people are rare enough in Westeros as it is, and good knights are the rarest of all. I still think he might've poisoned Joffrey. 

I mean, are we supposed to believe this guy just happens to be super nice, likeable, talented and handsome to boot? Like, what kind of Chris Hemsworth.

ROFL, poisoning Joffrey is a noble deed in my book but I see where you are coming from :D Garlan does seem a wee bit too perfect, just like Rhaegar. Doesn't mean that he s necessarily a bad guy on the inside, only that he human and has or will make some terrible mistake(s), and will most likely die for it.

Willas as the new lord of the Reach sounds fine, I would like to see him become an important character. Also, would it be possible that he marries Arianne?

 

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11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There are 4 Stark kids who incidentally are all strongly associated with a different element. There are also 4 Tyrell kids. So maybe a compare/contrast with Stark kids will reveal things?

Bran/Earth, Jon/Fire, Arya/Water, Sansa/Air.

Willas always reminded of Bran, and both are bound to the earth so to speak.

Marg is political and charming, so maybe there will be further parallels with Sansa.

Loras seems to be headed onto a revenge kick - Arya. I remember Cat thinking that Renly's armor is like water. Loras tries to "pour" himself into it, but can't. Arya as a FM "pours" herself into skin like Loras tried to with Renly's armor.

Garlan is a knight, one of the good ones. The good knights in the series are the Watch. Maybe there will be parallels with Jon.

Maybe parallels can be found between Olena & Mace with other Starks?

I think it more apt to say Jon/ice.  And the Tyrell kids are better looking and much richer.  :D

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I'm pretty sure that Garlan has been cast in the symbolic role of Renly's ghost. So whatever future you see for him, you might want to ask yourself, "What would Renly do?" (or "What would GRRM do to Renly") before finalizing your prediction. Aside from wearing Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater, Garlan dances with Sansa at a wedding feast, helping her to feel better, much the way that Renly danced with Brienne at a feast years earlier, helping her to feel better (and causing Brienne to develop a crush on him).

Not coincidentally, Garlan appears at that wedding feast immediately following the performance of a lengthy song about Renly dying heroically and, as a ghost, watching over his beloved Margaery as she goes on to marry Joffrey.

Thanks to Olenna and Margaery, Sansa imagined herself married to Willas Tyrell. Her mental image of this union included the two of them playing with kittens, which is what Margaery ends up doing with the sexually immature Tommen.

Sansa thought of Margaery as a sister at one point, if I recall correctly. She looked forward to spending time with her if/when she became Lady of Highgarden. Of course, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, Joffrey's death and Sansa's escape from King's Landing prevented them from developing much of a friendship.

Sansa had a crush on Ser Loras, of course, and treasured the memory of the rose he gave her at the Hand's Tourney. Ser Loras didn't even remember giving her the rose when she brought it up later.

I bring up all of these contacts/relationships between Sansa and the four Tyrell children because I think they are echoed in one of Dany's visions at the House of the Undying:

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. “Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth.”

“Long have we awaited you,” said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

“We knew you were to come to us,” the wizard king said. “A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way.”

“We have knowledge to share with you,” said a warrior in shining emerald armor, “and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered.”

She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Doubt seized her. The great door was so heavy it took all of Dany’s strength to budge it, but finally it began to move. Behind was another door, hidden. It was old grey wood, splintery and plain . . . but it stood to the right of the door through which she’d entered.

(ACoK, Daenerys IV)

@Lollygag and I share a couple - but not all - things in our approach to literary analysis. Like her, I see these rose references as well as the mention of the green armor as Tyrell symbols. However, the handsome figures in Dany's vision make FALSE claims to be the Undying of Qarth who will help Dany to reach her destiny. It appears that the Tyrell attempts to seduce Sansa were very similar to the attractive people who tried to tempt Dany to stray from her path, shortly before reaching the door she really needed. Loras didn't remember giving Sansa the rose, the betrothal to Willas never materialized, Ser Garlan seemed to melt away when he could have exonerated Tyrion (and, by extension, Sansa) in Joffrey's death and Margaery moved on with different lady companions. The nature of the Tyrell "trap" sprung on Sansa may be symbolized by the cheese the Queen of Thornes orders shortly after Sansa shares her true opinion about Joffrey.

Other literary points to consider: the wrong door is ebony and weirwood, like the door at the House of Black and White and like the door at Tobho Mott's blacksmith shop. The Moon Door at the Eyrie is weirwood. The right door is plain and old and grey - a Stark color but possibly also a Greyjoy allusion.

The "kingly man" in Dany's vision sounds like the "kindly man" in Arya's sojourn at the House of Black and White. Will Willas Tyrell be the kingly man? And is the kingly man the same as the wizard king? Perhaps the true heir of his grandmother, the Queen of Thornes.

Rhaegar wore red armor. Renly and Garlan Tyrell and the warrior in Dany's vision wore green armor. Brienne wore blue armor. (Brienne and Sansa are linked through Brienne's quest and her constant repetition that she is seeking her sister.) Jaime wears gold armor. I may be wrong, but it seems like each "team" needs to stick with its own color, and shouldn't trust the other colors. Or, at least, stay away from complementary colors.

In short, I see the Tyrells as potential false friends for Sansa and/or Dany in the upcoming books. And their ambitions to sit on the Iron Throne will not be restricted to making a match between Margaery and the current king, if the wizard king in Dany's vision is correctly seen as a hint about the Tyrells.

14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Maybe parallels can be found between Olena & Mace with other Starks?

I think Olenna is actually a parallel to the Stark nursemaid, Old Nan, oddly enough. I like your comparison of the four Tyrell offspring with four of the Stark kids. That could be a good approach.

 

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