DMC Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: It's been a while since I took IR levels one and two, but IIRC, this is Constructivism, which I found to be one of the weaker schools of thought. Finding a diplomatic solution with unified (i.e. "big six") multilateral negotiations? No, that's liberalism, pretty much the definition of it. Constructivism is...significantly different. (BTW, I loathe IR Theory - one grad seminar of it was all it took to firmly convince me I'm an Americanist 4 life.) 10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: And in regards to North Korea, yes they back down to a unified international community, but they always get something in return, and if no solution can be found as they slowly but surely build up their nuclear stockpile, yes, it does amount to doing nothing. Well, of course they get something in return, that's the basic concept of negotiations, right? However, what they'd be "getting" in return is relaxing sanctions, which is much more of a stick than a carrot. And you're right, there would have to be a credible commitment mechanism to ensure they don't just start building back up again eventually. 10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: And the solution is easy, though incredibly complicated to execute. It's China. China could end this all in a short amount of time, but from their perspective, it's still not in their interest to do so. The rest of the world has to find a way to change that. Right. Getting China to change their interest is the (incredibly) hard part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Right. Getting China to change their interest is the (incredibly) hard part. /Chinese standoff. //What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 21 minutes ago, dmc515 said: That'd be a great way to piss off both South Korea and Japan, two pretty important allies. Withdrawing our forces and ceding our role to the Chinese is not politically feasible for a US president. Yet Nucelar weapons and "Fire and Fury" is. Sometimes it appears are priorities are really messed up. I am not discounting the difficulty but a nation with a huge bulking military acting terrified over a nation as stunted as North Korea that we are need to freely talk of hundred of thousands dead just looks insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: /Chinese standoff. //What? You're just gonna smartass your way through this thread today, aren't ya? 1 minute ago, TheKitttenGuard said: Yet Nucelar weapons and "Fire and Fury" is. Sometimes it appears are priorities are really messed up. Can't argue that our priorities are messed up. However, Trump would never withdraw troops because it makes him look weak (and worse, weak towards the Chinese!) A Dem president could never do it because the GOP would raise holy hell...calling him or her weak. A GOP president could do so, a la Nixon having the anti-communist cred to open up China, but unfortunately Trump possesses all of Nixon's negative qualities and none of his positive ones. More importantly, it does leave South Korea and Japan high and dry. It particularly would be a slap in the face to the ROK, as we've been working with them on a THAAD system, something China is resolutely against. Simply put, it's not in our interests to summarily cede policing control to China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, larrytheimp said: Explain how the US's NK policy has been "if we appease them enough they will become less of a threat". I don't see that at all. Have you ever heard the phrase 'strategic patience'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Considering the huge problems the Trump administration is running into domestically, what with the police investigations, record low approval ratings, failure to get promised reforms through Congress, etc, now seems like a perfect time to start a war. Doing this to distract from your unpopularity is the oldest trick in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Can't argue that our priorities are messed up. However, Trump would never withdraw troops because it makes him look weak (and worse, weak towards the Chinese!) A Dem president could never do it because the GOP would raise holy hell...calling him or her weak. A GOP president could do so, a la Nixon having the anti-communist cred to open up China, but unfortunately Trump possesses all of Nixon's negative qualities and none of his positive ones. More importantly, it does leave South Korea and Japan high and dry. It particularly would be a slap in the face to the ROK, as we've been working with them on a THAAD system, something China is resolutely against. Simply put, it's not in our interests to summarily cede policing control to China. Well will not to be the first time pride leads to folly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, dmc515 said: You're just gonna smartass your way through this thread today, aren't ya? It's kind of what I do. Whistling past the graveyard and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 27 minutes ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said: Considering the huge problems the Trump administration is running into domestically, what with the police investigations, record low approval ratings, failure to enact the promised healthcare reform etc, now seems like it would be the perfect time to start a war. Doing this to distract from your unpopularity is the oldest trick in the book. I wonder how Brian Williams will narrate the bombings and the war. Who knew a corrupt fraud committing impulsive loud mouth jingoistic bigot that is the epitome of toxic masculinity would be an impulsive loud mouth jingoistic fool when in a position of power? Who knew giving him the power to launch nuclear weapons would be a bad idea? I'm sure someone once said that a man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons. It's a mess. And I have zero faith that this administration will not escalate things. They totally will help to further tarnish any sort of ground we have to stand on in the international community. An administration filled with xenophobes, bigots and jingoistic fools will never be diplomatic. And no authoritarian / dictatorial government already distrustful of the US will ever trust diplomatic solutions, especially with an impulsive asshole at the helm of the US government, one that attacks everyone including attacks on allies and those in the party he is the head and face of. This is also the result of letting toxic masculinity running wild. Tough = manly in the minds of toxic males like Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 39 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: I'm sure someone once said that a man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons.I /Fuckface Von Clownstick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Swordfish said: Have you ever heard the phrase 'strategic patience'? Yes. But that question still doesn't answer the question I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 I'm sure I'm just watching season 2 of Brink. I guess they didn't cancel it after all, they just recast it for cheaper lower quality actors. Military brinkmanship is surely the lowest form of international diplomacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 15 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Will they be that much worse off than under the current regime? I dont know the answer to that. Then again, it isn't a trivial question to answer. The problem is, similar to Iraq, there doesnt seem to be much thought about what happens after 'fire and fury'. When dictatorships (or even communist governments) tumble, there appears to be a sliding scale of what happens after. I'd say East Germany would be best case scenario and Iraq somewhere near the worst. In between you have the Eastern European countries and what have you. My hope would be NK would end up like that, a somewhat painful transition but in the grand arc of history not as bad as it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Either the Cabinet or Congress needs to act; this is out of control. Also, it's a total lie; the military has done none of the prep work it would need to do to get in a war with North Korea. We're not even ready to do a bombing run, because North Korea has much greater air defense systems than any country we've bombed in a long while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Fez said: Either the Cabinet or Congress needs to act; this is out of control. Also, it's a total lie; the military has done none of the prep work it would need to do to get in a war with North Korea. We're not even ready to do a bombing run, because North Korea has much greater air defense systems than any country we've bombed in a long while. I wish they could ban the President from using Twitter. I really wish they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I wish they could ban the President from using Twitter. I really wish they could. Twitter itself could. It's a private company, they could ban anyone from using their service. But they don't dare do so because of the fear of the blowback from Trump supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 On 8/9/2017 at 7:34 AM, Tywin et al. said: Trump has war like tendencies, but this post is rather unfair. Normally I would say yes, it's overblown and hyperbolic - if we were talking about a stock-standard tough-talking war hawk that had the capability of making carefully weighed decisions. We're not. We're talking about a pathological narcissist for whom glory and perception are all that matters. Given all of Trump's administrative/legislative failures to date, he now has an opportunity to show the world his true awesomeness, not to mention hold the key to one of the greatest powers of this planet in his tiny little hands - and with this current opportunity comes a future one, that of being immortalized as the president who subdued North Korea via nuclear weapon (which I'm sure he believes would overshadow the Russia business and all the other 'winning'). If that means raining apocalypse on tens of thousands of people in a tiny somewhat backwards country that he doesn't really know or care about, so be it. Do I think this will happen? Probably not - hopefully the cooler heads of Congress and his military will prevail. That does not negate his desire to do it, however. This is reflected in the disregard of the advice of those more experienced in NK relations and the breakneck escalation that we're seeing in between rounds. :/ This is not a stable man. We cannot treat his executive performance and decisions as though he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Which is which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Red Tiger said: Which is which? The one with the bad haircut is, oh shit wait. The one who plays a ton of golf is the, ah crap. This might take awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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