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Does anyone else think Tyrion's storyline in ASOS is a bit...weak?


Good Guy Garlan

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Especially compared to his storylines in AGOT and ACOK, which were super strong. 

Like in ASOS we also have Sansa as a POV in King's Landing, but her storyline is incredibly entertaining from beginning to end. She's scheming with the Tyrells, meeting Dontos in secret, getting shotgun-married, a heart-pounding escape with a surprise Littlefinger reveal, then the whole thing at the Vale and a show stopping cliffhanger to top it all off. 

Meanwhile, what's Tyrion doing? Getting berated by Tywin, banging Shae on the down low, getting blackmailed by some rando. It's only near the end that his storyline picks up steam, but before that he's just so...passive. He doesn't really do anything in this book until he pulls the trigger and gives Tywin an impromptu colonoscopy. Before that he mostly reacts to other stuff. Even Sansa is more proactive than him, plotting with the Tyrells. 

I don't know, I just love his chapters in AGOT and ACOK, and his in ASOS felt kind of a letdown. Hell, even his chapters in ADWD are more...colorful, and I freaking hate them, but they have a bit more energy going for them.

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11 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe because he was the one being played and used as pawn and it seemed a bit out of character for him? His plot line was used to further other character's like Oberyn and Sansa and Joff? While in the other books he's the one making the moves and in control for the most part.

Yeah, it's kind of jarring seeing him in that role after he was such a big driving force behind the plot of the first two books. 

I lowkey wonder if maybe GRRM could've given him more to do than wallowing in self-pity. 

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2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Meanwhile, what's Tyrion doing? Getting berated by Tywin, banging Shae on the down low, getting blackmailed by some rando. It's only near the end that his storyline picks up steam, but before that he's just so...passive. He doesn't really do anything in this book until he pulls the trigger and gives Tywin an impromptu colonoscopy. Before that he mostly reacts to other stuff. Even Sansa is more proactive than him, plotting with the Tyrells. 

Tyrion's chapters in aGoT and aCok were supposed to show us his competences, wit and skills.

In aSoS we see his father undoing his deeds, controlling and despising him and using Joffrey's murder as a legal way to get rid of him (by execution or sending him to the Wall).

The whole point was to give Tyrion motives to kill his father and to turn him into a persona non grata in Westeros, so helping Daenerys's cause seemed like an excellent deal.

I guess that the blackmail thing was thought to make Tyrion act as bad as his father ("See there, Father? he wanted to shout. See how fast I learn my lessons?") to protect a woman that utterly didn't deserved, so that he felt like kiling her too.

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I lowkey wonder if maybe GRRM could've given him more to do than wallowing in self-pity. 

I figure that if he continued as an acting player that didn't take shit from anyone, he wouldn't screw his future by killing his own father. A person as smart as him only would do this out of passional hate, I think.

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3 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Especially compared to his storylines in AGOT and ACOK, which were super strong. 

Like in ASOS we also have Sansa as a POV in King's Landing, but her storyline is incredibly entertaining from beginning to end. She's scheming with the Tyrells, meeting Dontos in secret, getting shotgun-married, a heart-pounding escape with a surprise Littlefinger reveal, then the whole thing at the Vale and a show stopping cliffhanger to top it all off. 

Meanwhile, what's Tyrion doing? Getting berated by Tywin, banging Shae on the down low, getting blackmailed by some rando. It's only near the end that his storyline picks up steam, but before that he's just so...passive. He doesn't really do anything in this book until he pulls the trigger and gives Tywin an impromptu colonoscopy. Before that he mostly reacts to other stuff. Even Sansa is more proactive than him, plotting with the Tyrells. 

I don't know, I just love his chapters in AGOT and ACOK, and his in ASOS felt kind of a letdown. Hell, even his chapters in ADWD are more...colorful, and I freaking hate them, but they have a bit more energy going for them.

Because in ASOS Tyrion learns his lesson on playing the GOT ,there are more players than he realizes and he doesn't  have Lord Tywin's support to give that extra weight to him. It is here that he realizes how  irrelevant he is for any of the vying powers and after getting a reality check he goes to the comfort of Shae's embraces to get some solace.

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Tyrion bought his way out of trouble and his family name allowed him to ridicule many better men and get away with it.  He joked and entertained at the expense of other men and hid  behind the Lannister reputation.  All that fell apart in ASOS.  I like a more humble Tyrion.  He learned humility.

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I'm with - well, everybody else. Book 3 is a major downturn in Tyrion's arc, changing him in ways which will continue to play out as the story proceeds. He spends the first part of the book lying as if dead, being drugged to hasten this fate. His father Tywin usurps "his" handship, then unleashes both barrels, telling Tyrion how he really feels. No Casterly Rock for YOU - EVER!!!! He gets married, against both of their wills, to a helpless child. (And no, Sansa isn't "scheming" and "plotting", she's being moved around the board like the pawn she is.) And then he gets framed for regicide and kin killing. After which, Tyrion gets handed around the board, no better than the child Sansa, as he's shipped off to Pentos in a barrel and from there, handed along, kidnapped, and ultimately sold. It's only as a slave where he is able to take matters into his own hands again.

I agree that this is not "the old Tyrion" - but it's for a reason. George RR delights in torturing and breaking his characters. It's the Imp's turn.

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I do think he's simply sad. All his deeds were undermined by the Tyrells and Tywin last minute saving of KL. He had his face cut, people didn't give him any praise for anything. Joffrey has more power now that his grandfather is the new """king""" (but by name) and he's tired I think. 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

. His father Tywin usurps "his" handship, then unleashes both barrels, telling Tyrion how he really feels. No Casterly Rock for YOU - EVER!!!!

Really,it was Tywin who gave Tyrion the handship in the first place,he was given credit for all he accomplished during that time but his chain was so effective mainly because of Cersei's wildfire.

And Casterly Rock is Tywin's to give ,to whoever he deems worthy.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

He gets married, against both of their wills

Pray tell which books are you reading.

Quote

He rose to his feet. “You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”
Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. “Very good, Father,” he said slowly,

-Tyrion,ASOS

Tyrion knew that no girl would ever like him let alone one who has lost her whole family because of the Lannisters even then he married her,poor Sansa would have been better off marrying someone her own age.

In this case even Cersei deserve more sympathy than Tyrion for being forced to marry again ,away from her children, a nasty woman she might be but she loves her children.

 

Quote

That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection.

- ADWD ,Tyrion

 

 

And then people give Tyrion credit for not forcing Sansa. Poor Sansa has to live in fear day and night when he might ask her to do her duty, atleast Dany started to like Drogo and he made her feel safe but Sansa never feels safe .She is the strongest of the characters in whole of ASOIAF just like Arya .The Starks rule .The North remembers.

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I've noticed that sometimes a Character's POV is there to move there own story along, but in many cases, it's just to give you an outlook on events that are (certainly not unrelated,) less crucial to their own story. There are a handful of Tyrion chapters in aSoS that fit that description in my opinion. One Tyrion Chapter which is a good example of this is in aSoS. I think it's Tyrion's first small council meeting as the Master of Coin. 

Theon's WoW chapter is like this if I remember correctly. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Pray tell which books are you reading.

I might well ask you this. We can agree to disagree about Tyrion, Tywin, and Cersei;  I think that Cersei "loved" her children on the teevie show, but not so much in the books. They were little reflections on her own glory, as her dear twin brother was herself, but with the much-coveted cock.

We certainly must give Tyrion credit for not forcing himself on Sansa - the man's "right" was standard in his time, plus the orders from The Hand of The King (aka "good old dad"), and the possibility of gaining Winterfell and the North by impregnating her. But Tyrion always treated Sansa with decency and saved her at least once from Joffrey's sadistic whims. Tyrion would have been a powerful ally in Sansa's hopes to escape or at least thwart the rest of the Lannisters, but Sansa was still deluded by simplistic black & white thinking. And still just other people's pawn.

Tyrion started losing me with his obsessive drunkenness and pathetic retreat into asking everyone he met "Where do whores go?" Although, in all honesty, this revealed his internal suffering, which he himself wasn't admitting or addressing, just trying to self-medicate. Ser Jorah's slapping him around the way he did showed a particularly ugly side of Jorah that the Khaleesi would have disapproved of. Maybe we'll see how this plays out.

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

No, that isn't what you said. You said even Drogo was better. I question your moral value & judgement. 

Well Dany herself comes to love him and still loves him granted it wasn't perfect match. Also it doesn't matter Drogo is better than him or not Tyrion has no problem forcing women and justify it to himself by telling himself that they are just whores.

Quote

That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection.

- ADWD ,Tyrion

 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

I might well ask you this. We can agree to disagree about Tyrion, Tywin, and Cersei;  I think that Cersei "loved" her children on the teevie show, but not so much in the books. They were little reflections on her own glory, as her dear twin brother was herself, but with the much-coveted cock.

We certainly must give Tyrion credit for not forcing himself on Sansa - the man's "right" was standard in his time, plus the orders from The Hand of The King (aka "good old dad"), and the possibility of gaining Winterfell and the North by impregnating her. But Tyrion always treated Sansa with decency and saved her at least once from Joffrey's sadistic whims. Tyrion would have been a powerful ally in Sansa's hopes to escape or at least thwart the rest of the Lannisters, but Sansa was still deluded by simplistic black & white thinking. And still just other people's pawn.

Tyrion started losing me with his obsessive drunkenness and pathetic retreat into asking everyone he met "Where do whores go?" Although, in all honesty, this revealed his internal suffering, which he himself wasn't admitting or addressing, just trying to self-medicate. Ser Jorah's slapping him around the way he did showed a particularly ugly side of Jorah that the Khaleesi would have disapproved of. Maybe we'll see how this plays out.

Okay read that part again 

Quote

He rose to his feet. “You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”
Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. “Very good, Father,” he said slowly,

-Tyrion,ASOS

Another quote from Tywin from the same chapter

Quote

“If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys…”

And this

Quote

“If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins,” said his father.

It is clear that Tywin gave him a choice and Tyrion gladly took it ,knowing it too well that Sansa had no reason to love him because he was a Lannister  and Sansa can't refuse him .

He should have refused her hand outright if he cared about her at all ,if he had refused her she would've been married to either Lancel who wasn't able to consummate and was trying to redeem himself unlike Tyrion or Martyn Lannister another son of Kevan who is the same age as Sansa.

His other actions after marrying her doesn't matter because he could've refused the marriage proposal itself but he didn't and got selfish and was responsible for giving pain and despair to Sansa knowingly.

Him trying to save Sansa from Joffrey and not forcing her aren't anything to give him credit for. They are expected of any decent man .

Also you might want to read the Tyrion chapter again cos it looks like you missed this gem-

Quote

That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection.

- ADWD ,Tyrion

 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Ser Jorah's slapping him around the way he did showed a particularly ugly side of Jorah that the Khaleesi would have disapproved of. Maybe we'll see how this plays out.

Khaleesi would've given her Bear a nice welcoming hug if Jorah showed up with him.Neither Dany nor Barry has any love for the imp .Jorah could've just as easily given his head to Cersei but the didn't.

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Not every character arc is going to build and peak within each book. With so many multiple storylines, you can only have a so much high drama in the last chapter(s), so some people are going to hit their marks at the beginning or middle and then leave off on a mediocre note.

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