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Does anyone else think Tyrion's storyline in ASOS is a bit...weak?


Good Guy Garlan

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49 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Tyrion gladly took it

"Gladly?" Are you serious? Tyrion "took" Sansa with great reluctance, thinking himself to be the lesser of evils. And about him f*ing women who "loathed the sight of him", he at no point "forced" them - they had contracted themselves to him for specifically that purpose, and regardless of how they felt, had willingly agreed to have sex with him as part of their jobs.

55 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Him trying to save Sansa from Joffrey and not forcing her aren't anything to give him credit for. They are expected of any decent man .

"Any decent man", eh? And yet, somehow none other could be found in King's Landing? You're trying too hard.

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16 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Especially compared to his storylines in AGOT and ACOK, which were super strong. 

Like in ASOS we also have Sansa as a POV in King's Landing, but her storyline is incredibly entertaining from beginning to end. She's scheming with the Tyrells, meeting Dontos in secret, getting shotgun-married, a heart-pounding escape with a surprise Littlefinger reveal, then the whole thing at the Vale and a show stopping cliffhanger to top it all off. 

Meanwhile, what's Tyrion doing? Getting berated by Tywin, banging Shae on the down low, getting blackmailed by some rando. It's only near the end that his storyline picks up steam, but before that he's just so...passive. He doesn't really do anything in this book until he pulls the trigger and gives Tywin an impromptu colonoscopy. Before that he mostly reacts to other stuff. Even Sansa is more proactive than him, plotting with the Tyrells. 

I don't know, I just love his chapters in AGOT and ACOK, and his in ASOS felt kind of a letdown. Hell, even his chapters in ADWD are more...colorful, and I freaking hate them, but they have a bit more energy going for them.

The plot demanded that. ASoS is actually just wrapping up ACoK and ASoS. The Starks are getting fucked in those books, and ASoS just finish the deal. The book just covers a few months never mind the fact that it has a thousand pages.

Without daddy's gold or sister's husband Tyrion is just an ugly dwarf. He is basically nothing in this world if he cannot play the aristocracy card (or the monarchy card). When Tywin treats him as the dwarf he is - and that thing continues, in part, during ADwD, involving other people - he becomes basically an impotent and powerless character.

If Tyrion does not become a dragonrider in the series he will remain this pitiful irrelevant character he is right now because it makes little to no sense that any sellsword or man with a sword in this (sort of) realistic series should ever follow an ugly penniless dwarf who murdered both his father and (allegedly) his nephew. The kinslayer Tyrion has no claim to Casterly Rock and he certainly could advise Daenerys just as well as her court jester as he could as her Hand. Only if Tyrion regains a position of some power and prominence with Dany's people can he ever end up in position similar to the one he has in ACoK.

Viserys III looked like a proper Targaryen and he was mocked as the Beggar King behind his back. Tyrion has given Brown Ben and the Second Son some empty promises. Those won't get him to Westeros or a position of power. He is a joke, and as soon as the Second Sons can no longer laugh the joke will be on him. 

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tyrion does not become a dragonrider ...

This is undoubtedly just me, but I don't see the need for more "dragonriders" than Dany.

On the other hand, if Viserion and Rhaegon do accept some non-Targaryons, there's the opportunity for the riders screwing up, anything from pulling an Edmure to just falling off and dying to simple treachery and betrayal. So okay, the dramatics of fiction probably require various doofuses and oafs getting control of these powerfully magical creatures. And Tyrion would be right up there as a candidate. Drunk dragon riding - whooooeeee!!!

Yes, I know that was rude. I think Tyrion would have more to offer as a trusted advisor to Dany. His excapades on the battlefield thus far suggest he'd be wasted in the van.

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

This is undoubtedly just me, but I don't see the need for more "dragonriders" than Dany.

On the other hand, if Viserion and Rhaegon do accept some non-Targaryons, there's the opportunity for the riders screwing up, anything from pulling an Edmure to just falling off and dying to simple treachery and betrayal. So okay, the dramatics of fiction probably require various doofuses and oafs getting control of these powerfully magical creatures. And Tyrion would be right up there as a candidate. Drunk dragon riding - whooooeeee!!!

Yes, I know that was rude. I think Tyrion would have more to offer as a trusted advisor to Dany. His excapades on the battlefield thus far suggest he'd be wasted in the van.

Tyrion isn't a Lannister. He is Aerys' bastard by Joanna, and thus Dany's half-brother. He will become a dragonrider.

However, I don't think he will play a great role in battle, etc. Dany's dragons are still far too small for that. It will be necessary to establish him as a powerful player again. A dragonrider is something special. Tyrion isn't.

Dany can make him her castrated fool and still get all the advice she needs from him. He has nothing to offer that would justify any decision on her side to make him a powerful advisor.

I still think Tyrion as a dragonrider will become an important player at Dany's court but I really can't see her teaming up with scum like he obviously is - ugly, and a convicted kinslayer and kingslayer. Yes, he killed Dany's enemies but who wants a man in her inner circles that has murdered his king, a boy of thirteen, and then also his father.

The answer just is: literally no one.

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Meeeeeh. I like it. ACOK and ASOS Tyrion are best Tyrion, in my not so humble opinion. True, he's not fighting mountain savages or readying to defend a siege, but his chapters are by no means dull or pointless. He's still very much scheming and giving us very enlightening material. I would also argue that, yeah, he's still being more proactive than Sansa. I mean what exactly constitutes as scheming for her? Telling Olenna that Joffrey is mean? That's not exactly next-level shit. Tyrion's stuff doesn't really begin to pick up steam until Oberyn shows up, and Oberyn arrives about half-way through the book, so that's not bad at all. 
Compared to Sansa, who does absolutely nothing until Joffrey dies, and that's about 75% into the book. 

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion isn't a Lannister.

Timeline doesn't work out. Morover, if there were the slightest hint that a horribly deformed, dwared offspring were NOT his, Lord Tywin would not have had the infant who killed his beloved wife drowned at birth? No way. Tyrion is a Lannister; deformities can occur in any family, not just the Targaryons.

And Tyrion IS smart enough, and has the information Dany needs; she'd be a fool to castrate him - and that ain't her style, anyways. He did not kill Joffrey; that was set in motion by Littlefinger, just as the assassination of Jon Arryn was and the blame - once again - directed toward the Lannisters. I also doubt that "ugliness" is as big a concern with Dany as it is with Sansa. After all, Dany's got Ser Jorah and Fat Belwas.

15 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

[Tyrion]'s still very much scheming and giving us very enlightening material. I would also argue that, yeah, he's still being more proactive than Sansa.

Ditto. We get to see Tyrion under stress, and having very little leverage of his (supposed) Lannister gold. This brings out different aspects of his personality, not all good, but also shows he can learn and never actually gives up.

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17 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Meeeeeh. I like it. ACOK and ASOS Tyrion are best Tyrion, in my not so humble opinion. True, he's not fighting mountain savages or readying to defend a siege, but his chapters are by no means dull or pointless. He's still very much scheming and giving us very enlightening material. I would also argue that, yeah, he's still being more proactive than Sansa. I mean what exactly constitutes as scheming for her? Telling Olenna that Joffrey is mean? That's not exactly next-level shit. Tyrion's stuff doesn't really begin to pick up steam until Oberyn shows up, and Oberyn arrives about half-way through the book, so that's not bad at all. 
Compared to Sansa, who does absolutely nothing until Joffrey dies, and that's about 75% into the book. 

Tyrion's plot is somewhat more interesting in ACoK and a lot more is happening in there than is in ASoS. But then, this is true for pretty much any other character. ASoS is a much slower book than ACoK.

However, I certainly agree with you that Tyrion's story in ASoS is far from uninteresting. But him being sidelined certainly makes his chapters not as interesting as his chapters in ACoK.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Timeline doesn't work out.

It does. There are rumors that Lady Joanna and Prince/King Aerys may have had an affair even before the woman married Ser Tywin. More importantly, Lady Joanna is in KL for the tourney and feast commemorating Aerys II's tenth anniversary on the Iron Throne, and we know Aerys was still very much interested in her. This was in 272 AC, a year before Tyrion's birth 273 AC. If Aerys and Joanna had sex during her stay in KL - either consensual or not - Aerys could very well be Tyrion's father.

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Morover, if there were the slightest hint that a horribly deformed, dwared offspring were NOT his, Lord Tywin would not have had the infant who killed his beloved wife drowned at birth? No way. Tyrion is a Lannister; deformities can occur in any family, not just the Targaryons.

If Tywin had killed Tyrion he would have still killed Joanna's son. He loved that woman. Would you kill the child of your beloved wife? I wouldn't. I might not be able to love him, just as Tywin was incapable of loving the ugly little shit who might (or was) not his seed and killed his mother during his birth but not loving isn't the same as killing an innocent child.

Tyrion would still be a Lannister bastard if he was Aerys' son. Joanna was born a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

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And Tyrion IS smart enough, and has the information Dany needs; she'd be a fool to castrate him - and that ain't her style, anyways.

That is was just an example. Quentyn could also have helped Dany. But she still rejected his offer to marry her. A dwarf who killed his father and own royal nephew is not the kind of person you want on your council. She could just collect Tyrion's knowledge on the lords and nobles of Westeros and then feed her to her dragons or just, well, throw him into some gutter to let him die there.

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He did not kill Joffrey; that was set in motion by Littlefinger, just as the assassination of Jon Arryn was and the blame - once again - directed toward the Lannisters. I also doubt that "ugliness" is as big a concern with Dany as it is with Sansa. After all, Dany's got Ser Jorah and Fat Belwas.

Quentyn's not exactly attractive looks and demeanor played a considerable role in Dany's decision to reject his offer. Tyrion basically has nothing of substance to offer her. Quentyn had Dorne. Tyrion cannot offer her anything. Not Lannister gold nor the loyalty and support of the Westermen. In fact, he would need her help to conquer the West and Casterly Rock.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It does. There are rumors that Lady Joanna and Prince/King Aerys may have had an affair even before the woman married Ser Tywin. More importantly, Lady Joanna is in KL for the tourney and feast commemorating Aerys II's tenth anniversary on the Iron Throne, and we know Aerys was still very much interested in her. This was in 272 AC, a year before Tyrion's birth 273 AC. If Aerys and Joanna had sex during her stay in KL - either consensual or not - Aerys could very well be Tyrion's father.

In the year before the year Tyrion was born, but not necessarily a year before Tyrion's birth. GRRM provided enough information to fuel rather than shut down the speculation that Aerys fathered Tyrion, but still left it vague enough to where the time between Joanna's stay in KL and Tyrion's birth could have been anywhere from a few months to almost two full years apart. Aerys could be Tyrion's father, but that is far different than your statement saying "Tyrion isn't a Lannister. He is Aerys' bastard by Joanna."

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57 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

In the year before the year Tyrion was born, but not necessarily a year before Tyrion's birth.

If it was a literal year before Tyrion's birth it would actually be confirmation that Aerys wasn't his father as a pregnancy doesn't last for twelve months. But you know what I meant there.

57 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GRRM provided enough information to fuel rather than shut down the speculation that Aerys fathered Tyrion, but still left it vague enough to where the time between Joanna's stay in KL and Tyrion's birth could have been anywhere from a few months to almost two full years apart. Aerys could be Tyrion's father, but that is far different than your statement saying "Tyrion isn't a Lannister. He is Aerys' bastard by Joanna."

The latter is just what I happen to consider the likeliest possibility. And I'm pretty sure we'll get sufficient textual evidence for that eventually, just as we'll get with Jon Snow. In his case I think the case is already tight enough to not need special additional clues to figure things out. With Tyrion it is not as rock solid.

But the reason why I brought this up is that I think only Tyrion the Targaryen bastard and/or Tyrion the dragonrider can provide the necessary setting for Tyrion's return to power and influence. A penniless ugly dwarf who also happens to be a kingslayer and kinslayer as well as the close relation of Daenerys Targaryen's sworn enemies is not going to rise to prominence and her court or be able to retain her favor. Tyrion's very looks make it unlikely that the people around Dany (including herself) are likely to trust him. The impression we get in ASoS and ADwD is that his scar and the loss of his nose in combination with his mismatched eyes and over-sized head make it very difficult for people to actually feel comfortable in his very presence.

His knowledge about Westerosi politics could only come in handy when they actually are in Westeros. But they are still in Slaver's Bay. If he does not acquire a dragon he has literally nothing. And even if they are in Westeros - Dany's reputation would certainly suffer because the ugly murderous dwarf is in her retinue. He would be seen as her equivalent of Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton. I'm not sure his advice could make up for that. Dany has to win battles, and Tyrion is not exactly of much use in that department.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tywin had killed Tyrion he would have still killed Joanna's son. He loved that woman. Would you kill the child of your beloved wife? I wouldn't.

Yeah, well neither of us is Tywin, who's been responsible for wiping out numerous entire Houses. He doesn't seem to have much sentimentality. Also, he had Jaime who was kind of the ideal son, so he really didn't need some deformed spare, particularly if he'd never let Tyrion serve in that context.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Quentyn's not exactly attractive looks and demeanor played a considerable role in Dany's decision to reject his offer.

But not as much as the fact she was already basically at the altar with Graznak. Plus, Quentyn really was a "mere boy", sent on a hail Mary wild goose chase by his father, who was the one who had some political acumen. It's impossible to compare Quentyn's mediocre looks with Tyrion's unfortunate monstrosity, topped with horrible scarring. (The rate things are going with the main characters, Sandor Clegane will end up being the most handsome man in Westeros.)

Tyrion had greatly superior knowledge of Westeros, politics, the Lannister family, and the current occupants of the Iron Throne. This isn't something you can take a few notes on and be done with. Tyrion also had pretty shrewd judgement, and his ordeals had increased his general understanding. If he ever makes it to see Dany, she'll be able to see through his cosmetic flaws. Also, he did not kill Joffrey - another usurper, although he will proudly claim to have done for his father, a treasonous former Hand to Dany's father. So that's in Tyrion's favor as well.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression we get in ASoS and ADwD is that his scar and the loss of his nose in combination with his mismatched eyes and over-sized head make it very difficult for people to actually feel comfortable in his very presence.

Well, I think you underestimate Daenerys.

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5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Yeah, well neither of us is Tywin, who's been responsible for wiping out numerous entire Houses. He doesn't seem to have much sentimentality.

He actually has. For his own people. For Lannisters, legitimate and illegitimate alike. He raises his late brother Gerion's bastard with commoner, Joy Hill, at Casterly Rock.

That's why he didn't kill the ugly dwarf. I mean, regardless who Tyrion's actual sire is, Tywin could always have claimed he knew he wasn't his seed and kill him, or simply have him quietly poisoned. The child was a disgrace in any case, and many people would have understood and accepted it if Tywin had killed him. Just look how many Northmen and others find the idea of putting Bran out of his misery rather compelling.

This is not a society which enjoys and easily accepts freaks and cripples.

The fact that Tywin allowed Tyrion to live is not a sign that he considered him legitimate (he in fact goes on record that he isn't sure about Tyrion's paternity), it is a sign that he does not kill a member of his own family, regardless whether he is trueborn or a bastard.

But note that he is hellbent to ensure that this creature does not succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock. If he truly believed he was his son then he would certainly have less problems with that idea. Especially since Tyrion would actually be a competent lord.

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

But not as much as the fact she was already basically at the altar with Graznak.

You mean Hizdahr, right? The deciding factor was that Quentyn was basically ugly, came at the wrong time, and had no army. She had no intention to go to Westeros. What if Dany still isn't in Westeros when Tyrion first meets her? Why should she care about his promises that he could be of use to her there? Nobody can confirm his claims that he was a competent Acting Hand and prior to ACoK everybody in Westeros considered Tyrion Lannister to be nothing but a joke.

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Tyrion had greatly superior knowledge of Westeros, politics, the Lannister family, and the current occupants of the Iron Throne. This isn't something you can take a few notes on and be done with. Tyrion also had pretty shrewd judgement, and his ordeals had increased his general understanding. If he ever makes it to see Dany, she'll be able to see through his cosmetic flaws. Also, he did not kill Joffrey - another usurper, although he will proudly claim to have done for his father, a treasonous former Hand to Dany's father. So that's in Tyrion's favor as well.

He has admitted he killed Joff to Jaime. And he shows no hint that he is going to recant that throughout ADwD. Tyrion also has no idea about how Westeros is changing right now. He knows nothing about Euron or the new High Septon nor has he much of a picture about Littlefinger in the Vale, Aegon, or the Martells.

Once they actually arrive in Westeros any insights he might have on the Lannisters and Tyrells might be useless because the people he knows stuff about might already be dead.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean Hizdahr, right?

Thanks for the correction! I meant to check that out before hitting the submit button and forgot.

Well, we can agree to disagree about Tyrion. I'm hoping we'll get some answers in the upcoming books.

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1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

My favorite part is when he's secretly wishing for Griff to rescue him despite he was even planning to kill him in his sleep. Oh, Tyrion... 

Tyrion is like that Baton Roue meme, with the guy riding the bicycle who puts a stick in his own spokes then blames someone else.  

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, we can agree to disagree about Tyrion. I'm hoping we'll get some answers in the upcoming books.

We are not that far apart.

But we can be pretty sure, I think, that Tyrion's story will suck as much as @Good Guy Garlan  feels it did during ASoS if Tyrion does not become a dragonrider. Because ugly dwarfs without dragons are not going to get a front seat in Daenerys' (war) council. If Tyrion had just his brains to offer to Dany (and not also point to his dragon or address her as 'my sweet (half-)sister') then Dany - and especially Tyrion's rivals for Dany's favor - should be able to sideline him very effectively, especially when it comes to the actual conquest of Essos and Westeros. Tyrion is smart guy but he is neither an accomplished general nor an experienced battle commander. If he doesn't have a dragon he won't lead any of Dany's armies.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he doesn't have a dragon he won't lead any of Dany's armies.

Well, that's the thing. I don't think Tyrion has any desire to "lead an army", whether on foot, horseback or airborne on a big flying lizard. Seriously, people are useful who don't lead armies or sit on top of dragons. What about Missandei? Probably not that good with a war hammer, right? Dany's got  handmaidens who are never seen with swords and haven't yet gone into battle. Dany will find that Westeros calls for an additional skill set, a broader knowledge of history and lore than she's been taught or that her Essosi legions and allies know. Tyrion has all that, from life experience and his extensive reading.

I think he has a lot to offer; if not, why would Varys and Illyrio Mopatis have been trying to get him together with Daenerys for so long, and at such great cost? (The wine alone...) These guys aren't dumb; moreover, they're flexible in adjusting their plans and they have backups. And they have put Tyrion on the front line, much as they sent Ser Whitebeard and Loud Belwas to Dany.

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4 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, that's the thing. I don't think Tyrion has any desire to "lead an army", whether on foot, horseback or airborne on a big flying lizard.

Then he won't be of much use.

4 minutes ago, zandru said:

Seriously, people are useful who don't lead armies or sit on top of dragons. What about Missandei? Probably not that good with a war hammer, right? Dany's got  handmaidens who are never seen with swords and haven't yet gone into battle.

There is a reason why those people are tertiary characters and not POVs. If Tyrion is going to be as important as Missandei he is going to sit around a lot, doing nothing. Or may he will do the chores. We might get a lot of information on Dany's underwear that way but little else.

4 minutes ago, zandru said:

Dany will find that Westeros calls for an additional skill set, a broader knowledge of history and lore than she's been taught or that her Essosi legions and allies know. Tyrion has all that, from life experience and his extensive reading.

This is not completely wrong but Dany will conquer Westeros and quite a few cities and places in Essos. For that she needs commanders and generals not ugly dwarfs. Tyrion may be able to give her some advice on Cersei, Jaime, other Lannisters, Littlefinger, and Mace. But that's it. He won't be able to play the role of a politician because, you know, neither Cersei, Jaime, other Lannisters, Littlefinger, or Mace will even hear Daenerys' terms out if she shows up in their camp with the dwarf in tow. Not to mention what would happen if she actually expected Tyrion to negotiate with anybody in her name.

Well, perhaps Jon, Sansa, and Aegon would hear Tyrion out, but that should be it.

4 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think he has a lot to offer; if not, why would Varys and Illyrio Mopatis have been trying to get him together with Daenerys for so long, and at such great cost? (The wine alone...) These guys aren't dumb; moreover, they're flexible in adjusting their plans and they have backups. And they have put Tyrion on the front line, much as they sent Ser Whitebeard and Loud Belwas to Dany.

There is a pretty good chance that Varys and Illyrio have an ulterior motive there. They might know whose Tyrion's real father was. The idea that Varys and Illyrio need Tyrion for anything is not very likely, actually. Varys or Illyrio could have gone to/with Dany or Aegon themselves. They are both smarter than Tyrion.

And when Tyrion killed Shae and Tywin he nearly broke. He wasn't of much use thereafter. Illyrio considered to quietly kill Tyrion when he realized that the guy had a death wish. He decided to let him live but we don't know why. The idea that Tyrion knows more about the important people of Westeros than Varys and Illyrio themselves is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Varys did not save Tyrion and to send him to Aegon and Daenerys because he is such a great asset. There must be more than that.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We are not that far apart.

But we can be pretty sure, I think, that Tyrion's story will suck as much as @Good Guy Garlan  feels it did during ASoS if Tyrion does not become a dragonrider. Because ugly dwarfs without dragons are not going to get a front seat in Daenerys' (war) council. If Tyrion had just his brains to offer to Dany (and not also point to his dragon or address her as 'my sweet (half-)sister') then Dany - and especially Tyrion's rivals for Dany's favor - should be able to sideline him very effectively, especially when it comes to the actual conquest of Essos and Westeros. Tyrion is smart guy but he is neither an accomplished general nor an experienced battle commander. If he doesn't have a dragon he won't lead any of Dany's armies.

You don't have to be a secret Targaryen to ride a dragon. Tyrion climbing his way to the top and taming a dragon through sheer force of wits, perseverance and his knowledge about them is infinitely more satisfying than "I'm your secret half-brother; dragon pls."

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