Does anyone else think Tyrion's storyline in ASOS is a bit...weak?

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Renly's Banana said:

You don't have to be a secret Targaryen to ride a dragon. Tyrion climbing his way to the top and taming a dragon through sheer force of wits, perseverance and his knowledge about them is infinitely more satisfying than "I'm your secret half-brother; dragon pls."

But Tyrion's dragonlore knowledge suggests he very much believes Targaryen/dragonlord blood is the key element when you want to become a dragonrider. That is why he expects that Dany's dragon liked Brown Ben Plumm. He expects that the man is descended from Lord Viserys Plumm, allegedly the son of Princess Elaena Targaryen by her cousin, King Aegon the Unworthy.

Tyrion will never try to mount a dragon by himself if he doesn't expect to succeed at that task. And he won't expect that unless he had reason to believe he had, in fact, Targaryen blood. Even then it should be a suicidal task. Tyrion is a dwarf with crippled legs. To get close to a dragon and mount it while avoiding its teeth and flames you not only have to be courageous but also fast and mobile.

There is a magical bond between a dragon and its rider, and those are rooted in blood. You only ride one dragon at a time, and dragon and rider can only bond anew if the other dies. You don't establish such a bond with 'sheer force of wits, perseverance, and his knowledge'.

[zandru]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He won't be able to play the role of a politician because, you know, neither Cersei, Jaime, other Lannisters, Littlefinger, or Mace will even hear Daenerys' terms out if she shows up in their camp with the dwarf in tow.

A "dwarf in tow"? Come on. This isn't some pig-riding mummer dwarf or court fool (although Little T has done those, too). This is one of Lord Tywin Lannister's own children, a former Hand of the King, sister of the Queen Mother Cersei. Possibly he's considered a kingslayer or kinslayer, but hey! There has been a lot of that going down in Westeros over the last several years. Tyrion is not some anonymous figure; he's been inside the royal family for years.

More importantly, however, many a battle is won beforehand, at the parlay or conference table. It's not all slash and burn, and only fools would take that as their first action.

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion is a dwarf with crippled legs. To get close to a dragon and mount it while avoiding its teeth and flames you not only have to be courageous but also fast and mobile.

I'm lost. So now you're saying Tyrion won't - and can't - ride a dragon? Well, I'll accept that.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

A "dwarf in tow"? Come on. This isn't some pig-riding mummer dwarf or court fool (although Little T has done those, too). This is one of Lord Tywin Lannister's own children, a former Hand of the King, sister of the Queen Mother Cersei. Possibly he's considered a kingslayer or kinslayer, but hey! There has been a lot of that going down in Westeros over the last several years. Tyrion is not some anonymous figure; he's been inside the royal family for years.

Sure. But he has about the reputation of Charles Manson now. Who the hell would want to have Charles Manson for a diplomat even if he would know 'important stuff'?

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

More importantly, however, many a battle is won beforehand, at the parlay or conference table. It's not all slash and burn, and only fools would take that as their first action.

I certainly agree that Tyrion can give valuable advice. But that's not enough for Dany to just make him her Hand or make him her favorite advisor.

If Dany had Tyrion as her negotiator she is likely to lose that negotiation. Even people who liked Tyrion once are not likely going to like him after he killed Joff and his own father.

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

I'm lost. So now you're saying Tyrion won't - and can't - ride a dragon? Well, I'll accept that.

I mean that Tyrion needs an actually incentive/very good reason to believe he can become a dragonrider. The idea that he will just try to mount a dragon because 'he knows his dragonlore' and 'the plot demands it' isn't very likely. Tyrion is not stupid. He is not Quentyn Martell. He has finally decided he wants to live.

Now, there is one chance how I think Tyrion could become a dragonrider by accident - if he comes face to face with a dragon during one of the coming battles, and realizes he can either die or try to jump/climb on the dragon's back. Perhaps he could even have another impulse of mad chivalry there, trying to lure the dragon away from Penny or something like that.

However, if Tyrion became a dragonrider this way he would, of course, realize/conclude on the basis of his dragonlore knowledge that he cannot, in fact, be Lord Tywin's seed after all.

But if he is ever going to search out a dragon in an attempt to mount it he will have to first believe that he has more than just a drop of Targaryen blood like Quentyn or even Brown Ben have. He must believe he is the son of a Targaryen. And if he is Joanna's son by Aerys there is actually one person who might know about that - Barristan Selmy.

[Renly's Banana]

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tyrion's dragonlore knowledge suggests he very much believes Targaryen/dragonlord blood is the key element when you want to become a dragonrider. That is why he expects that Dany's dragon liked Brown Ben Plumm. He expects that the man is descended from Lord Viserys Plumm, allegedly the son of Princess Elaena Targaryen by her cousin, King Aegon the Unworthy.

Brown Ben has less Targaryen blood in him than freakin' Gendry. Tyrion muses that his ancestry may be a reason for it, but I highly doubt it's the only reason. The idea that dragons only like Targaryens is dubious at best. The dragonseeds weren't even confirmed Targ bastards, they simply claimed to be and were allowed to tame them. I highly, highly doubt most of them had any real Targaryen connections. 

The prevailing common myth that only Targaryens can ride dragons comes from the fact that only Targaryens ever owned dragons. No one else outside of their family and bloodline was ever allowed to try. 

Quote

Tyrion will never try to mount a dragon by himself if he doesn't expect to succeed at that task. And he won't expect that unless he had reason to believe he had, in fact, Targaryen blood. Even then it should be a suicidal task. Tyrion is a dwarf with crippled legs. To get close to a dragon and mount it while avoiding its teeth and flames you not only have to be courageous but also fast and mobile.

There has never been anything in the books to imply that he thinks of himself as a Targaryen. I don't think he's ever even doubted the fact he's Tywin's son through and through. I also have no idea how he would come to that conclusion, since I doubt Barristan would even know that. 

When Tyrion talks of what he can offer Daenerys, he always says it would be his wit and counsel. It's nothing relating to the dragons.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Brown Ben has less Targaryen blood in him than freakin' Gendry.

That is actually not true. Lord Viserys Plumm is the son of one incest-born Targaryen (Aegon IV) and a Targaryen princess with an incest-born Targaryen father and a Velaryon mother. Ben is descended from one of Viserys' younger sons, and he could very well be the man's grandson considering that he seems to be around fifty in the series. Elaena was married to Ossifer Plumm in 176 AC. Lord Viserys' younger sons may have been born around 200 AC or even later (depending on how many he had). Do the math, if Ben was born around 250 AC or so this would work fine.

Gendry is the great-grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen, who herself has as much Blackwood, Dayne, and Martell ancestors as Targaryens. That certainly gives Gendry still a lot of Targaryen ancestors, of course, but not necessarily as much as Ben has.

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Tyrion muses that his ancestry may a reason for it, but I highly doubt it's the only reason. The idea that dragons only like Targaryens is dubious at best. The dragonseeds weren't even confirmed Targ bastards, they simply claimed to be and were allowed to tame them. I highly, highly doubt most of them had any real Targaryen connections.

Addam and Alyn of Hull had Velaryon ancestors, and thus also Targaryen ancestors. The other dragonseeds where all Dragonstonians, and many of these people could have Targaryens as ancestors without even knowing it, or - if their ancestors came to Dragonstone with the Targaryens or other Valyrians - dragonlord ancestors from other houses.

Ulf was a man-at-arms on Dragonstone. Hugh a blacksmith serving on the island. Smallfolk don't travel far in a feudal society, and Rhaenyra only controlled the island and Driftmark by the time they called for dragonseeds. Aside from the boys from Driftmark it is very unlikely that people came from the outside.

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

The prevailing common myth that only Targaryens can ride dragons comes from the fact that only Targaryens ever owned dragons. No one else outside of their family and bloodline was ever allowed to try.

No, we certainly know that there are many other dragonlords from other families back in Old Valyria. The Targaryens were just the only surviving dragonlord family. They never were the only ones.

If it was possible for the average guy to bond with a dragon then why on earth did never ever steal a Targaryen dragon? Riderless dragons like Vermithor, Silverwing, and Seasmoke should easily have bonded with the very grooms and servants that fed and cleaned the stables of those dragons each day? Why did one of such people never make away with a dragon after its rider died? Why did Maegor claim Balerion after the Conqueror's death and not somebody else? There are magical reasons for all that.

The Targaryen dragons were accustomed to the presence of humans but they only bonded with and submitted to the will of a particular breed of people.

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

There has never been anything in the books to imply that he thinks of himself as a Targaryen.

That is true. But Jon Snow also sees himself as a Snow, right?

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I don't think he's ever even doubted the fact he's Tywin's son through and through.

Tywin himself doubts it to his face, in ASoS. And Tyrion himself informs Jon about his father's doubts in AGoT.

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I also have no idea how he would ever even come to that conclusion, since I doubt Barristan would even know that. 

Barristan was Aerys' Kingsguard. If Jaime can witness how Aerys rapes his sister-wife Rhaella Barristan Selmy can also witness how Aerys rapes (or seduces and sleeps with) Joanna Lannister. The Kingsguard keep the king's secrets, that's part of their vow. And it is quite clear that there is something Selmy does not want to talk about when he tells Dany about Aerys' passion for Joanna in ADwD. We didn't get the complete story back then.

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

When Tyrion talks of what he can offer Daenerys, he always says it would be his wit and counsel. It's nothing relating to the dragons.

Sure, because Tyrion does not yet have a dragon. When he has one - and can claim or style himself Dany's half-brother - she will see him with different eyes. She will have to listen if she wants to keep the dragon he claimed close, she will be inclined to believe him because she may conclude he is one of the dragon heads she believes she can trust, and she will be happy that she is not actually the only one of her family left alive. That will be important to her.

Tyrion Lannister can offer her nothing of those things. He would just be the ugly son of a man she has sworn to kill claiming stuff she cannot double-check right now. Tyrion could tell her he singlehandedly killed Renly Baratheon and Jon Arryn in addition to Tywin Lannister and Joffrey Baratheon and she had no chance to actually verify whether he was telling the truth or not.

Tyrion making an approach going like 'I killed by father and nephew and I know stuff. Please don't kill me and make me your adviser.' isn't likely to succeed in a realistic setting. Dany has just no reason to trust this guy.

[zandru]

What Renly's Banana said. My thanks, ser!