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If Aegon hadn't...


KarlDanski

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20 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The land would remain separate and miserable.  The constant fighting between the kingdoms and within the kingdoms would leave little rest for the weary small folk.  Farms, crops, livestock, and homes constantly destroyed.

 

19 hours ago, YOVMO said:

In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.

The free cities remain separate, and it seems to work pretty well for them. They are great powers on their own, their economies prosper, they are technologically and artistically more advanced than the Seven Kingdoms... The idea that a greater kingdom provides greater average happiness among their subjects remains completely unproved, both in Westeros and in real life.

Ask any subject who was subject of the Ottoman Empire, or the Austria-Hungarian empire, if they are not better now on their own. Ask the Tibetans how they feel about being part of a greater empire.

One of the times of more prosperity in arts and science of our history took part in Athens 5 BC. It was a single city, and yet in a matter of a century it provided us Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Democritus, Pericles. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle,... Meanwhile, which is the legacy of the contemporary and a thousand times larger Persian empire?

I don't think that the Targaryen invasion changed that much the livelihood of the average Westerosi commoner. It's unrealistic to assume that the Seven Kingdoms were constantly at war, and we know that the united Targaryen kingdom had a civil war once or twice per century. As per the advancement of "industry", there's no evidence to be seen.

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But Westeros is a large continent with only a handful of cities, even less pre-Conquest. Uniting the kingdoms and opening up trade brought prosperity and population growth, which the Free Cities already had since the days of the Valyrian Freehold. Only Oldtown pre-Conquest could compare with any of the Free Cities with respect to arts, science and learning; at best, the rest of the continent was wide and relatively empty with only pockets of culture at the seats of high lords. If Westeros wanted to drag itself out of the Dark Ages it needed to be united, even temporarily.

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From Life of Brian (and I realize this is an exaggeration of what Rome did for everyone):

Quote

apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

...how many of these accomplishments did the Targs manage? Did they improve sanitation? Improve medicine? Expand education with a medieval university system? Improve literacy? Build good roads to improve trade and bring food to needy regions during winters and famines? Bring fresh water to Dorne? Was there any restructuring to deal with the crazy climate? Improved irrigation/aqueducts? Tyrion's description of the Valyrian roads on Essos always struck me:

Quote

Unlike the muddy tracks that passed for roads in the Seven Kingdoms, the Valyrian roads were wide enough for three wagons to pass abreast, and neither time nor traffic marred them. They still endured, unchanging, four centuries after Valyria itself had met its Doom.

Though this road is supposedly magical, it sounds a lot like a Roman road. Romans built without magic. Targs on Westeros built "muddy tracks" instead.

My feeling is that the Targs created a mediocre and short-lived empire. They were memorable because they looked different and had dragons, but when it comes to reforms that might have helped the powerless, they changed little, mostly because the feudal system they relied on limited their ability to enforce rules. Early on when they had dragons they could, I guess, count on terror. After, though, they didn't even have that, and they certainly did not have the administrative organization in place to take control of the seven regions.

 

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15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 

The free cities remain separate, and it seems to work pretty well for them. They are great powers on their own, their economies prosper, they are technologically and artistically more advanced than the Seven Kingdoms... The idea that a greater kingdom provides greater average happiness among their subjects remains completely unproved, both in Westeros and in real life.

Ask any subject who was subject of the Ottoman Empire, or the Austria-Hungarian empire, if they are not better now on their own. Ask the Tibetans how they feel about being part of a greater empire.

One of the times of more prosperity in arts and science of our history took part in Athens 5 BC. It was a single city, and yet in a matter of a century it provided us Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Democritus, Pericles. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle,... Meanwhile, which is the legacy of the contemporary and a thousand times larger Persian empire?

I don't think that the Targaryen invasion changed that much the livelihood of the average Westerosi commoner. It's unrealistic to assume that the Seven Kingdoms were constantly at war, and we know that the united Targaryen kingdom had a civil war once or twice per century. As per the advancement of "industry", there's no evidence to be seen.

 

Free cities did and do fight with each other. Like how Lys, Myr and Tyrosh fight with each other. If relatively peaceful merchant states fight with each other a lot then what about militaristic feudal kingdoms? Currently Braavos and Volantis seems to have influence over lesser free cities at least Pentos is influenced by Braavos. So there is a greater co-ordination between them than 7 kings of 7 seperate kingdoms. 

I can't speak for other countries but my country India(though not perfect today) is in a much much better state than how it was divided. India once consisted of thousands of feudal kingdoms but arts and science flourished during the reigns of greater empires like the Mauryan or the Mughal empire when there was a relative peace.

Industrial advancement or the lack of it is an anomaly in

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3 minutes ago, kimim said:

From Life of Brian (and I realize this is an exaggeration of what Rome did for everyone):

...how many of these accomplishments did the Targs manage? Did they improve sanitation? Improve medicine? Expand education with a medieval university system? Improve literacy? Build good roads to improve trade and bring food to needy regions during winters and famines? Bring fresh water to Dorne? Was there any restructuring to deal with the crazy climate? Improved irrigation/aqueducts? Tyrion's description of the Valyrian roads on Essos always struck me:

Though this road is supposedly magical, it sounds a lot like a Roman road. Romans built without magic. Targs on Westeros built "muddy tracks" instead.

My feeling is that the Targs created a mediocre and short-lived empire. They were memorable because they looked different and had dragons, but when it comes to reforms that might have helped the powerless, they changed little, mostly because the feudal system they relied on limited their ability to enforce rules. Early on when they had dragons they could, I guess, count on terror. After, though, they didn't even have that, and they certainly did not have the administrative organization in place to take control of the seven regions.

 

Did anyone argue that they did all that? They placed themselves at the top of feudal hierarchy and that was the thing they did best.There are definitely some achievements by them. 300 years is a relatively short time for technological advancement in Westeros where there was only one university which too was founded on one kingdom thousands of years before. I would really question the citadel's achievements more than any of the kings. An institute of learning for thousands of years yet no significant achievements in different fields?

 

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