so what are the chances that jon snow will actually die permanently? or come back evil

[snow is the man]

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

[Lisula]

Good point on the vows. Although on that, I was hoping that a certain document would turn up. Robb Stark wanted him to be the heir to Winterfell (rather than Sansa and Tyrion) and most of the Northern lords witnessed this in writing - it might yet turn up. 

I also hope he won't turn evil. Here's why I think it's unlikely. 

It might depend on who revives him. That would be either Thoros or Melisandre. I don't think anyone else can manage that feat? 

  Melisandre has years of experience. Every time Lord Beric is brought back by Thoros, he loses some ability to care, and seems fairly fed up with the process by now. But he's still set on doing the right thing. 

And Catelyn's all right - as Lady Stoneheart, she's working on bringing the Red Wedding killers to justice. Also, she had a very strong personality to begin with. 

So I think Jon Snow would be all right. Also, he had a lot to work through originally. He was treated like a misfit, what with being bastard-born, and a warg, so it could be that he gets revived and is less bothered by what others think of him. Maybe he'll become less conflicted, and more focused on whatever needs to be done?  

[snow is the man]

8 minutes ago, Lisula said:

Good point on the vows. Although on that, I was hoping that a certain document would turn up. Robb Stark wanted him to be the heir to Winterfell (rather than Sansa and Tyrion) and most of the Northern lords witnessed this in writing - it might yet turn up. 

I also hope he won't turn evil. Here's why I think it's unlikely. 

It might depend on who revives him. That would be either Thoros or Melisandre. I don't think anyone else can manage that feat? 

  Melisandre has years of experience. Every time Lord Beric is brought back by Thoros, he loses some ability to care, and seems fairly fed up with the process by now. But he's still set on doing the right thing. 

And Catelyn's all right - as Lady Stoneheart, she's working on bringing the Red Wedding killers to justice. Also, she had a very strong personality to begin with. 

So I think Jon Snow would be all right. Also, he had a lot to work through originally. He was treated like a misfit, what with being bastard-born, and a warg, so it could be that he gets revived and is less bothered by what others think of him. Maybe he'll become less conflicted, and more focused on whatever needs to be done?  

How would that get him out of his vows though? I never understood that. Also what northern lords witnessed this?

[Lisula]

Well if we assume that the Night's Watch vows are for life, he's kept them for life. If he's dead, and is revived, that's a fresh start. 

It's in the Catelyn V chapter where she and Robb are at Oldstones. Catelyn tries to persuade Robb not to legitimise Jon. But King Robb is determined that he can trust Jon - better to have him as Lord of Winterfell than Sansa's new husband Tyrion. He summons all the lords present to witness his decision. I don't have the book by me right now, but as I recall, he was planning to send some prisoners to the Wall to compensate the Watch for losing Jon. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords-Chapter_45

[300 H&H Magnum]

3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

Jon already broke his vows.  He's already an oathbreaker.  Dying and coming back to life will not erase that crime.

I think the chances are fair that he remains dead or at the very least, as I said in my topic on pivotal characters, if he comes back, he will no longer be a pivotal character.  He already made his pivotal decision and failed as the lord commander of the watch.  He's done.

[DixiesArcher]

42 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon already broke his vows.  He's already an oathbreaker.  Dying and coming back to life will not erase that crime.

I think the chances are fair that he remains dead or at the very least, as I said in my topic on pivotal characters, if he comes back, he will no longer be a pivotal character.  He already made his pivotal decision and failed as the lord commander of the watch.  He's done.

No chance he doesn't come back and he's far from done. Even a hater has to admit that. 

[acwill07]

Jon will be released from his vows because he died.  His Night's Watch vows end with his death, which has technically come to pass.  When he wakes back up he's gonna be pissed and he's not going to be in the Night's Watch anymore.  I think this is one aspect of the story that the show got pretty close to right.

[HouseFossoway]

I thought that this would be an interesting take for the tv show to go, but could also work extremely well for the book series itself:

Melisandre brings Jon back to life (but we don't get any POVs from him). Jon seems more distant than his usual self, but he still seems like Jon. He rallies a bunch of northern lords to declare him a king, and then they ride off to fight the Boltons/rid the north of Stannis. After a brutal battle where a bunch of soldiers die, it is finally revealed that that was Jon's plan entirely: to get a large enough amount of dead people so that the white walkers could raise a huge army of wights. Melisandre didn't actually raise Jon from the dead, the white walkers just used her as a way to sneakily raise the night's King without anybody realizing, in the body of someone who others will call a king.

Then we get a POV from Jon explaining that he warged into Ghost, and so his mind and spirit is still alive, just in Ghost, where it will remain for the rest of the series.

[Prof. Cecily]

In the books, is there any chance of a meeting between a resurrected Jon and Lady Stoneheart?

 

[Yucef Menaerys]

8 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

I think the show answered that question pretty well, this is just one amongst some few parts of the show that I think the books are going to stay true to

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

5 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon already broke his vows.  He's already an oathbreaker.  Dying and coming back to life will not erase that crime.

I think the chances are fair that he remains dead or at the very least, as I said in my topic on pivotal characters, if he comes back, he will no longer be a pivotal character.  He already made his pivotal decision and failed as the lord commander of the watch.  He's done.

He was an oathbreaker and betrayed the watch. The sentence for that is death, which his former Night's watch brothers performed rather poorly (a stabbing instead of a decent execution). He has paid for his crime. His watch has ended, because of his death.

And yes, I do believe he will come back from the dead. He is still the key person in one of the biggest secrets and story-pushing events in the books. Like Ser Beric, he will care less about trifles. he doesn't care that the Watch and the free folk don't get along. They need to work together to have human kind get a chance at survival. The same goes for Lannister, Targaryen, Tyrell, Martell, Greyjoy, Tully, Arryn and all their bannerman.

Jon's sole focus will be to end all those skirmishes between the houses of men and get them to work together to defeat the White Walkers.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Lisula said:

Good point on the vows. Although on that, I was hoping that a certain document would turn up. Robb Stark wanted him to be the heir to Winterfell (rather than Sansa and Tyrion) and most of the Northern lords witnessed this in writing - it might yet turn up. 

I also hope he won't turn evil. Here's why I think it's unlikely. 

It might depend on who revives him. That would be either Thoros or Melisandre. I don't think anyone else can manage that feat? 

  Melisandre has years of experience. Every time Lord Beric is brought back by Thoros, he loses some ability to care, and seems fairly fed up with the process by now. But he's still set on doing the right thing. 

And Catelyn's all right - as Lady Stoneheart, she's working on bringing the Red Wedding killers to justice. Also, she had a very strong personality to begin with. 

So I think Jon Snow would be all right. Also, he had a lot to work through originally. He was treated like a misfit, what with being bastard-born, and a warg, so it could be that he gets revived and is less bothered by what others think of him. Maybe he'll become less conflicted, and more focused on whatever needs to be done?  

 

Personally, I remain unconvinced that Mellisandre will bring Jon back from the dead because I am not 100% convinced he will be dead. But just a few points regarding the resurrections achieved through fire. The fire kiss is achieved through magic, not religion. So technically anyone who knows the art can do it. And it is not just red priests/esses who know it. 

Thoros we know can do it, MMD could do it, though she fucked up and left Drogo a vegetable. Beric was able to pass the flame to Catelyn and whilst he did not do the spell from scratch his doing so proved it is a product of magic and not a religious miracle.  It seems likely that Benerro has done it to Moqorro as he is able to live ten days and nights adrift at sea. And someone did it to Mellisandre probably as she like Beric, Cat, & Moqorro does not require food or drink to live.  A woods witch in the Whispers knew the art once In feast Brienne is told about her by Nimble Dick. Also historically another Woods witch may have known it, as she claimed to be able to raise armies of the dead to throw back the Andals.

So we have several non-red priests performing the resurrection spell. And no evidence that the nature of the person being raised is altered by the magic user, so who does it should not influence Jon's personality. But as I said I am unconvinced that he is actually dead. And think it possible that he is meerely wounded. And that other people at the wall are capable of healing him. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

In addition. Addressing the issue of Jon and the Nightswatch vows.  I don't think he'll wheedle his way out of them via dying and being resurrected. If he is resurrected I don't see him wanting to abandon the NW. We've seen him tested three times and each time he has remained a man of the Nights Watch. And all this 2Oh, but the fire kiss changes you" is not really as true as folk like to believe. Beric changed slowly over several resurrections. Cat was dead a LONG time before she was brought back, and because of the neck wound, we don't really know how much is going on in her head. She may for all we know have a pretty strong grasp on what she wants and is striving for.  Her not speaking very much or clearly when she does hides much of her inner thoughts from us.  Mellisandre like I said is likely a fire wight also and she definitely has cognition still, and whilst she is focussed she is not blind to everything else going on around her and is able to adjust her strategy in light of new information.  Moqorro also seems to understand things in the normal way and has not turned into a single-minded shadow of a human being. As much as GRRM has said the magic in the series has to have consequences ( I paraphrase) they don't appear to be quite as severe as many readers have assumed.  So if it happened I don't think he'd be so lost to himself that he'd waltz out on the watch. I do think he'll be released from the vows eventually but I don't think it will be via dying.

It could be the result of Robb's will, or it could come at the dissolution of the Nights Watch at the end of the series. Or it could happen at the insistence of multiple lords and ladies of the realm when his heritage comes out and they need a king. Or it could happen via Dany coming to the IT and wanting to make him her consort. I'm very open minded about things like this.  But I do think dying and getting out on a technicality is lame.    

[Jon Snow is a loser]

10 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon already broke his vows.  He's already an oathbreaker.  Dying and coming back to life will not erase that crime.

I think the chances are fair that he remains dead or at the very least, as I said in my topic on pivotal characters, if he comes back, he will no longer be a pivotal character.  He already made his pivotal decision and failed as the lord commander of the watch.  He's done.

agree. another possibility is that he is revived but never get another POV until the very end where he get a POV which confirm that this is actually another person who steals his body and the real Jon is long gone. That would be very interesting. 

[acwill07]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In addition. Addressing the issue of Jon and the Nightswatch vows.  I don't think he'll wheedle his way out of them via dying and being resurrected. If he is resurrected I don't see him wanting to abandon the NW. We've seen him tested three times and each time he has remained a man of the Nights Watch. And all this 2Oh, but the fire kiss changes you" is not really as true as folk like to believe. Beric changed slowly over several resurrections. Cat was dead a LONG time before she was brought back, and because of the neck wound, we don't really know how much is going on in her head. She may for all we know have a pretty strong grasp on what she wants and is striving for.  Her not speaking very much or clearly when she does hides much of her inner thoughts from us.  Mellisandre like I said is likely a fire wight also and she definitely has cognition still, and whilst she is focussed she is not blind to everything else going on around her and is able to adjust her strategy in light of new information.  Moqorro also seems to understand things in the normal way and has not turned into a single-minded shadow of a human being. As much as GRRM has said the magic in the series has to have consequences ( I paraphrase) they don't appear to be quite as severe as many readers have assumed.  So if it happened I don't think he'd be so lost to himself that he'd waltz out on the watch. I do think he'll be released from the vows eventually but I don't think it will be via dying.

It could be the result of Robb's will, or it could come at the dissolution of the Nights Watch at the end of the series. Or it could happen at the insistence of multiple lords and ladies of the realm when his heritage comes out and they need a king. Or it could happen via Dany coming to the IT and wanting to make him her consort. I'm very open minded about things like this.  But I do think dying and getting out on a technicality is lame.    

He's not gonna "wheedle" his way out of his vows.  The fact that his own sworn brothers killed him will disillusion him to the point that he doesn't feel he is bound to the NW anymore.  

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

He's not gonna "wheedle" his way out of his vows.  The fact that his own sworn brothers killed him will disillusion him to the point that he doesn't feel he is bound to the NW anymore.  

Jon is not going to judge the whole based on the acts of a few. That is part of his arc and transition from "know nothing" to learned/enlightened. That is why he sees the free folk as worth saving. As Jon and LC Mormont both say, they are people too and part of the realms of men to protect. Jon will know who mutinied against him, and if those few haven't been dealt with by the time he revives, he will deal with them then. 

[acwill07]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon is not going to judge the whole based on the acts of a few. That is part of his arc and transition from "know nothing" to learned/enlightened. That is why he sees the free folk as worth saving. As Jon and LC Mormont both say, they are people too and part of the realms of men to protect. Jon will know who mutinied against him, and if those few haven't been dealt with by the time he revives, he will deal with them then. 

Exactly, and then he will leave the NW, cause he knows he has to go and convince the rest of the realm to fight.  The NW and the free folk don't have the men to battle the White Walkers alone......and then there is Roose Bolton to consider.  Jon will leave the wall to join that fight, take care of the Boltons, and by then his true parentage might come out.  Either way, he's going to go south and convince the other lords that the real fight is in the far north.

I believe his days as LC of the NW are effectively over.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not sure why you think that seeking support from the rest of the realm in the fight against the others requires him to step down as LC or leave the NW?  

And also why would being "disillusioned" with those who attacked him mean he abandons the wall? or his position of power there and within the realm by stepping down, when it is his best opportunity to persuade other Lords to join the fight?

As LC of the NW he carries far more weight to approach the Houses of Westeros in regards to fighting the Others than as a wandering lone bastard. 

[Darkstream]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Personally, I remain unconvinced that Mellisandre will bring Jon back from the dead because I am not 100% convinced he will be dead. But just a few points regarding the resurrections achieved through fire. The fire kiss is achieved through magic, not religion. So technically anyone who knows the art can do it. And it is not just red priests/esses who know it. 

Thoros we know can do it, MMD could do it, though she fucked up and left Drogo a vegetable. Beric was able to pass the flame to Catelyn and whilst he did not do the spell from scratch his doing so proved it is a product of magic and not a religious miracle.  It seems likely that Benerro has done it to Moqorro as he is able to live ten days and nights adrift at sea. And someone did it to Mellisandre probably as she like Beric, Cat, & Moqorro does not require food or drink to live.  A woods witch in the Whispers knew the art once In feast Brienne is told about her by Nimble Dick. Also historically another Woods witch may have known it, as she claimed to be able to raise armies of the dead to throw back the Andals.

You seem to be conflating the various types of magic and resurrection that we have seen so far. Essentially, we can brake down the types of magic into four different categories.

(1) Fire magic, that of Rhllor; used by Melisandre, Thoros, and Moqorro.

(2) Earth magic, that of the Old gods and the Weirwoods.

(3) Water magic, which we haven't seen yet in the main novels but know of from the World book; used by the Rhoynish.

(4) Blood magic, which we have seen used by Maggy the Frog and Mirri Maz Durr.

Now we obviously don't know very much about these Magics, and they may very well turn out to be derived from the same source, however at this point we cannot classify the resurrections by the red priests/esses as the same to that of Mirri.

Quote

So we have several non-red priests performing the resurrection spell. And no evidence that the nature of the person being raised is altered by the magic user, so who does it should not influence Jon's personality. But as I said I am unconvinced that he is actually dead. And think it possible that he is meerely wounded. And that other people at the wall are capable of healing him. 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It has been made quite clear that both Beric and Cat have suffered severe side effects resulting from their resurrections. Would you please clarify why you believe this not to be the case.

I would posit that If indeed Jon happens to be revived by Mel, or methods derived through Rhllor (which I personally don't believe will be the case), I think it's fair to assume that he will suffer some sort of side effects.

[acwill07]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure why you think that seeking support from the rest of the realm in the fight against the others requires him to step down as LC or leave the NW?  

And also why would being "disillusioned" with those who attacked him mean he abandons the wall? or his position of power there and within the realm by stepping down, when it is his best opportunity to persuade other Lords to join the fight?

As LC of the NW he carries far more weight to approach the Houses of Westeros in regards to fighting the Others than as a wandering lone bastard. 

By the time he takes care of the Bolton's his true parentage could be out in the open, and even if it's not he wouldn't be a "wandering lone bastard."  He'd be Ned Stark's son who rose from the dead to save the realm from the White Walkers.  He will already have the allegiance of the north IMO after he takes care of the Boltons.  He's going to continue to guard the realms of men, but he won't do it as NW LC anymore IMO.