so what are the chances that jon snow will actually die permanently? or come back evil

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

22 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

You seem to be conflating the various types of magic and resurrection that we have seen so far. Essentially, we can brake down the types of magic into four different categories.

(1) Fire magic, that of Rhllor; used by Melisandre, Thoros, and Moqorro.

(2) Earth magic, that of the Old gods and the Weirwoods.

(3) Water magic, which we haven't seen yet in the main novels but know of from the World book; used by the Rhoynish.

(4) Blood magic, which we have seen used by Maggy the Frog and Mirri Maz Durr.

Now we obviously don't know very much about these Magics, and they may very well turn out to be derived from the same source, however at this point we cannot classify the resurrections by the red priests/esses as the same to that of Mirri.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It has been made quite clear that both Beric and Cat have suffered severe side effects resulting from their resurrections. Would you please clarify why you believe this not to be the case.

I would posit that If indeed Jon happens to be revived by Mel, or methods derived through Rhllor (which I personally don't believe will be the case), I think it's fair to assume that he will suffer some sort of side effects.

 

Perhaps you would like to read my thoughts on Magic, I have done a lot of work on looking at the various magics and magic users and to write it all up here right now would take me a long time. but I can link you my thoughts if you like? 

Basically the TL;DR version is that I think MMD used the fire kiss and killing the stallion was just showmanship. 

I maybe misinterpreted the meaning of the post I was responding to in that I thought they were implying that the effects of the alterations caused by raising differed depending upon who did it. Because they said the extent of Jon's potential evilness might depend upon if Thoros or mel brings him back. 

I discussed my thoughts upon the nature of both Beric & Cats changed persona's already so I shan't repeat myself. But basically that is what I meant when I said we have no proof that the magic user effects the personality who they are raising.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

By the time he takes care of the Bolton's his true parentage could be out in the open, and even if it's not he wouldn't be a "wandering lone bastard."  He'd be Ned Stark's son who rose from the dead to save the realm from the White Walkers.  He will already have the allegiance of the north IMO after he takes care of the Boltons.  He's going to continue to guard the realms of men, but he won't do it as NW LC anymore IMO.  

 

Assuming he is raised early in TWOW his parentage is unlikely to be out at that point, given that the battle of ice is almost certainly happening early on in the book he won't have dealt with the Bolton's Stannis will have. And having abandoned the NW he will struggle to get the respect and allegiance of the Northern lords.  It makes far more sense to remain at the wall, and build upon the relationship he has with Stannis and the Northern lords using his influence as a respected LC of the NW. 

I absolutely don't think he's staying in the NW long-term, but the first part of TWOW is not the time for the watch to disband or his parentage to come out.  

[Good Guy Garlan]

GRRM criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back from the dead as a better person. He said death should really fuck with someone's head, like Beric and Stoneheart. 

So I don't expect Jon to come back and sing Kumbaya with Bowen Marsh. He should come back angry, emotional. At worst he should be like Fuck the Watch, at best he'd realized he made a mistake by rejecting Stannis' offer to be lord of Winterfell.

[Darkstream]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

I see, fair enough. Indeed, I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on this. I'm assuming I can find it in your profile?

[Steel Stag]

I hope he is dead and won't be resurected. 

[cgrav]

I'm always surprised how many people hate the main characters but still read 5000+ pages and joined the discussion forum. 

Jon has experienced a number of symbolic deaths and resurrections - most notably climbing back over the wall - as well as had his fate foreshadowed. He's also got a unrevealed secret royal identity, a deed to Winterfell with his name on it, and appears as Azor Ahai in Mel's visions. He's kinda the main character, representing "ice and fire" on several levels. There's quite a bit of story left to tell.

Like the character or not, it would be just terrible writing to leave all those loose ends. And that's worse than losing a character people like.

[Praetor Xyn]

Virtually zero. If he dies this long before the end, all that character development, focus, foreshadowing etc is completely wasted.

[Protagoras]

Die permanently from the stabbing: 0%

Becoming "total evil" (as in figthing for the Others, becoming like Darth Vader): 2-5%

Becoming "darker" (As in caring less, more ruthless, gazing in the Abyss so to speak): 80-90%

Remaining exactly the same as he was before he died with no negative effect whatsoever, ignoring the predecent by Beric and Catelyn: 0%

[acwill07]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Assuming he is raised early in TWOW his parentage is unlikely to be out at that point, given that the battle of ice is almost certainly happening early on in the book he won't have dealt with the Bolton's Stannis will have. And having abandoned the NW he will struggle to get the respect and allegiance of the Northern lords.  It makes far more sense to remain at the wall, and build upon the relationship he has with Stannis and the Northern lords using his influence as a respected LC of the NW. 

I absolutely don't think he's staying in the NW long-term, but the first part of TWOW is not the time for the watch to disband or his parentage to come out.  

I don't expect Stannis to completely take care of the Boltons....he's gonna need help. I expect Jon to be resurrected and when he does he is going to take Tormund and whoever else will ride with him and go looking for Ramsay Bolton.  Once that happens there is no telling what will happen, but by the time he has to begin trying to unite the Seven Kingdoms to fight the common foe, it's very possible that his true parentage will be known.  Howland Reed is still out there (who Martin has already told us will be showing up) or it could come from Bran.  You're dogmatic belief that he sticks with the NW is limiting your view of the possibilities here.  "Now night gathers and my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death."  I've got news for you, his death has come and his watch has ended.  His days as LC have shown him that the NW is too rigid and staunch in their ridiculous views to be effective in the fight to come.  

The northern lords are going to have plenty of respect for him, because he's Ned Stark's son and his prowess is well known, plus he CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD.  Him not being in the NW anymore will have no bearing.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, acwill07 said:

I don't expect Stannis to completely take care of the Boltons....he's gonna need help. I expect Jon to be resurrected and when he does he is going to take Tormund and whoever else will ride with him and go looking for Ramsay Bolton.  Once that happens there is no telling what will happen, but by the time he has to begin trying to unite the Seven Kingdoms to fight the common foe, it's very possible that his true parentage will be known.  Howland Reed is still out there (who Martin has already told us will be showing up) or it could come from Bran.  You're dogmatic belief that he sticks with the NW is limiting your view of the possibilities here.  "Now night gathers and my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death."  I've got news for you, his death has come and his watch has ended.  His days as LC have shown him that the NW is too rigid and staunch in their ridiculous views to be effective in the fight to come.  

The northern lords are going to have plenty of respect for him, because he's Ned Stark's son and his prowess is well known, plus he CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD.  Him not being in the NW anymore will have no bearing.

 

You're not going to get very far with me by speaking as if your thoughts are an absolute and certain to happen. 

Just so you know.. Look, Jon is definitely not going to be LC of the NW at the end of this story. He absolutely does have a bigger destiny than that. But neither is he going to just walk away from them. One of his main tutors in his story has been Aemon, who told him a story all about how he was tested and stayed, Jon has been twice tested and has remained loyal to the watch. He bases large segments of his own self-worth and personal value on loyalty and abandoning the NW does not align with that. When thinking about the future of the books it serves us to think logically about what aligns with both the needs of the story and what we know of the characters. Jon has done a lot of growing up and is no longer the boy who would abandon his post to go fight with his brother. He is the man who sees the bigger picture and understands the watches true meaning.  A handful of rebels who quite probably will be dead or in the ice cells by the time he comes too are not enough of a reason to leave his post. Leaving the rest of the NW leaderless in their greatest hour of need.  It just does not fit with his personality. And whilst I agree that being raised back from the dead does definitely alter a person, people vastly over egg that. Look at the evidence Beric tells us himself how it changes you but the effects get worse each time he has risen, the shell of himself he feels he is now is the culmination of IIRC over half a dozen kisses.  Catelyn also changed but as I said we don't actually know how much as she barely speaks, she is certainly more ruthless and gives far fewer fucks about anything. But frankly, given what she's been through anyone could become more hang happy in her circumstances.  She's definitely not the same as old Cat, but neither is she the raving cackling lunatic many like to imagine her as.  And as I have explained Mellisandre is a candidate for being a fire wight and she is certainly not a mindless zombie bent on destruction nor is Moqorro.  

As to Stannis, I expect him to smash the Boltons. And take WF. And for Jon to be waylaid at CB for some time because there is a reason Borraq turned up in Dance, he needs a tutor in skinchanging. And he needs time to get to grips with how to warg of his own volition. Which is why I have always felt him actually dying at all is not a certainty. They are only stab wounds, and we only know for certain there were 3, one is just a scratch equivalent to a shaving cut, lots of blood but not deep at all, one in the gut - potentially lethal but not automatically so, the other in the shoulder.  We do not know what clothing he had on. Nor the length of the blades used. Could be a hunting knife, could be a 2"  paring knife. There are numerous people at the wall who may be capable of healing him, and an entire tower full of Maesters equipment, Clydass who spent what a decade - two? assisting Maester Aemon, being his eyes. Morna the Woods Witch, Mel with fire healing, Val who may have her own skills.  But even if he dies and Mel raises him, he still isn't likely to just walk out on the NW the same day. And his position as LC especially once Stannis has defeated the Boltons grants him gravitas to ask for help. Where the help is needed AT THE WALL.  I do think he'll head South to WF but not instantly. Jeyne is on her way to the wall, and I think he has to hear her story. She may arrive whilst he is convalescing, and speak with him then. But she's going north for a purpose one which would be lost if when she gets there he's upped and fucked off. Jeyne is the only person who has information pertaining to LF and his true nature. She's got the scars to prove it!

Personally, I think it likely Jon will go to WF as the LC of the NW once Sansa and LF arrive there. With Stannis dead of a battle wound or such like. I think they head north and take WF, where she presides and LF helps her to rebuild it, as foreshadowed in the snowcastle scene. Jon goes to visit once he gets word in order to ask for help at the wall fighting the Others, and tells her everything Jeyne told him regarding LF. Leading to her having him arrested and off with his head.  Thus fulfilling her prophecy.

I think Arya is going to head back to WF too, and that Bran is whispering to her in her dreams via Nymeria to do so.    I fully expect the Stark family to be reunited by the end of TWOW. I just don't think Jon is abandoning his post in Jon I.  

[khal drogon]

As much chance as Daenerys becoming evil.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

As much chance as Daenerys becoming evil.

Oh, people LOVE to bandy that one about too, she's gone mad. Don't ya know!  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Darkstream said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes

I see, fair enough. Indeed, I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on this. I'm assuming I can find it in your profile?

 

Tell you what, I've altered things a bit from my initial write up which I did in 2014 after the release of the world book, and I wrote that into the OP from my magic thread in a post a few weeks back on a topic re-the Royces. You can probably find the magic thread easy enough on my profile. But if you like I can dig out that revised version from that other thread. I have to get my bairns off to school and i have a body combat class this morning but If you don't mind waiting I can get on it this afty. 

 

[Darkstream]

59 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Tell you what, I've altered things a bit from my initial write up which I did in 2014 after the release of the world book, and I wrote that into the OP from my magic thread in a post a few weeks back on a topic re-the Royces. You can probably find the magic thread easy enough on my profile. But if you like I can dig out that revised version from that other thread. I have to get my bairns off to school and i have a body combat class this morning but If you don't mind waiting I can get on it this afty. 

 

Sounds great. Thanks!

[Tralalala]

On 26.04.2017 г. at 1:21 AM, snow is the man said:

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

Rather small considering the fanboys/fangirls the character inspires... I know the author claims he doesn't get influenced by fans but i think he honestly does get influenced.

On 26.04.2017 г. at 6:12 AM, HouseFossoway said:

Melisandre brings Jon back to life (but we don't get any POVs from him). Jon seems more distant than his usual self, but he still seems like Jon. He rallies a bunch of northern lords to declare him a king, and then they ride off to fight the Boltons/rid the north of Stannis. After a brutal battle where a bunch of soldiers die, it is finally revealed that that was Jon's plan entirely: to get a large enough amount of dead people so that the white walkers could raise a huge army of wights. Melisandre didn't actually raise Jon from the dead, the white walkers just used her as a way to sneakily raise the night's King without anybody realizing, in the body of someone who others will call a king.

That would be cool for a lack of a better word,but then again i dislike jon so him being a magic puppet on strings to ice zombies is amusing.

[Gaz0680]

I think there is zero chance Jon will die in The Winds of Winter. He is an endgame player and has a big part to play in the remaining conflicts. There would be no point or value in storytelling to kill him off in AdWD, then bring him back and kill him off again in the next book.

That said, I do think there's a decent chance he will die toward the end of the last book. He is by no means guaranteed to survive the final battles. I think there's a roughly even chance he dies to a chance that he survives and lives out the rest of his life in a leadership position of some kind (whether lord of winterfell, king in the north, King of all Westeros, etc).

[acwill07]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You're not going to get very far with me by speaking as if your thoughts are an absolute and certain to happen. 

Just so you know.. Look, Jon is definitely not going to be LC of the NW at the end of this story. He absolutely does have a bigger destiny than that. But neither is he going to just walk away from them. One of his main tutors in his story has been Aemon, who told him a story all about how he was tested and stayed, Jon has been twice tested and has remained loyal to the watch. He bases large segments of his own self-worth and personal value on loyalty and abandoning the NW does not align with that. When thinking about the future of the books it serves us to think logically about what aligns with both the needs of the story and what we know of the characters. Jon has done a lot of growing up and is no longer the boy who would abandon his post to go fight with his brother. He is the man who sees the bigger picture and understands the watches true meaning.  A handful of rebels who quite probably will be dead or in the ice cells by the time he comes too are not enough of a reason to leave his post. Leaving the rest of the NW leaderless in their greatest hour of need.  It just does not fit with his personality. And whilst I agree that being raised back from the dead does definitely alter a person, people vastly over egg that. Look at the evidence Beric tells us himself how it changes you but the effects get worse each time he has risen, the shell of himself he feels he is now is the culmination of IIRC over half a dozen kisses.  Catelyn also changed but as I said we don't actually know how much as she barely speaks, she is certainly more ruthless and gives far fewer fucks about anything. But frankly, given what she's been through anyone could become more hang happy in her circumstances.  She's definitely not the same as old Cat, but neither is she the raving cackling lunatic many like to imagine her as.  And as I have explained Mellisandre is a candidate for being a fire wight and she is certainly not a mindless zombie bent on destruction nor is Moqorro.  

As to Stannis, I expect him to smash the Boltons. And take WF. And for Jon to be waylaid at CB for some time because there is a reason Borraq turned up in Dance, he needs a tutor in skinchanging. And he needs time to get to grips with how to warg of his own volition. Which is why I have always felt him actually dying at all is not a certainty. They are only stab wounds, and we only know for certain there were 3, one is just a scratch equivalent to a shaving cut, lots of blood but not deep at all, one in the gut - potentially lethal but not automatically so, the other in the shoulder.  We do not know what clothing he had on. Nor the length of the blades used. Could be a hunting knife, could be a 2"  paring knife. There are numerous people at the wall who may be capable of healing him, and an entire tower full of Maesters equipment, Clydass who spent what a decade - two? assisting Maester Aemon, being his eyes. Morna the Woods Witch, Mel with fire healing, Val who may have her own skills.  But even if he dies and Mel raises him, he still isn't likely to just walk out on the NW the same day. And his position as LC especially once Stannis has defeated the Boltons grants him gravitas to ask for help. Where the help is needed AT THE WALL.  I do think he'll head South to WF but not instantly. Jeyne is on her way to the wall, and I think he has to hear her story. She may arrive whilst he is convalescing, and speak with him then. But she's going north for a purpose one which would be lost if when she gets there he's upped and fucked off. Jeyne is the only person who has information pertaining to LF and his true nature. She's got the scars to prove it!

Personally, I think it likely Jon will go to WF as the LC oe NW once Sansa and LF arrive there. With Stannis dead of a battle wound or such like. I think they head north and take WF, where she presides and LF helps her to rebuild it, as foreshadowed in the snowcastle scene. Jon goes to visit once he gets word in order to ask for help at the wall fighting the Others, and tells her everything Jeyne told him regarding LF. Leading to her having him arrested and off with his head.  Thus fulfilling her prophecy.

I think Arya is going to head back to WF too, and that Bran is whispering to her in her dreams via Nymeria to do so.    I fully expect the Stark family to be reunited by the end of TWOW. I just don't think Jon is abandoning his post in Jon I.  

I don't see him abandoning the NW in Jon I either, but I think it's going to happen sooner rather than later.  I just don't believe he will see it as a betrayal.  His brothers betrayed him, and they were doomed to be destroyed anyway because they refused to work with the Wildlings....hell most of them couldn't even see that every single man left north of the Wall would be one more wight to fight against.

I just think that when Jon either comes back from the dead or recovers from his wounds he is going to have had an epiphany that he must leave the Wall in order to ultimately save the realms of men.  I wouldn't be surprised if he hands his command off to someone a la the show, and then heads south.

Obviously this is all speculation.  I honestly have never given thought to Jon being trained as a warg.....maybe he never gets fully trained as one and he simply always has this latent power and connection with Ghost.....who knows.

[TheSeer27]

My question is, if he is resurrected, how much of him will remain? I don't see him just turning evil, but what about his memories. How much of his past life will he remember. Thoros says he can't even remember who his wife was, or where he was from. I wonder if he is resurrected, and fake Arya shows up to the Wall, will he know its fake Arya? Or will he not remember?

[BricksAndSparrows]

I think it would be nice if he died permanently. I'd like there to still be some surprises/twists in the story.

[Moonmoon]

There is no doubt that jon will be resurrected. I do hope he's a changed man when he returns. That would be interesting!