so what are the chances that jon snow will actually die permanently? or come back evil

[Nevets]

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jeyne is on her way to the wall, and I think he has to hear her story. She may arrive whilst he is convalescing, and speak with him then. But she's going north for a purpose one which would be lost if when she gets there he's upped and fucked off. Jeyne is the only person who has information pertaining to LF and his true nature. She's got the scars to prove it!

I don't think he is going to have a chance to meet Jeyne.  Theon told her to maintain the masquerade of being Arya for a reason, and that won't happen if she immediately sees Jon.  I expect her to arrive just after the attack on Jon, and be sent on to Eastwatch and then to Braavos to keep her away from Ramsay. 

I think her importance is to Arya's story, not Jon's.  I expect them to meet and for her to tell Arya all about events in the North and LF, inspiring Arya to return to Westeros.  

I do agree with in that I expect the Starks to have a reunion at Winterfell around the end of TWOW, though.  And I think that Jon is too dedicated to the NW and its mission to simply leave.  If he does leave to take up politics, it will be because he feels that that is the best way to carry out its mission.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

My question is, if he is resurrected, how much of him will remain? I don't see him just turning evil, but what about his memories. How much of his past life will he remember. Thoros says he can't even remember who his wife was, or where he was from. I wonder if he is resurrected, and fake Arya shows up to the Wall, will he know its fake Arya? Or will he not remember?

 

Thoros is not a fire wight? He has never been raised from the dead, nor has he ever been married, and he knows full well that he is from Myr and that he was gifted to the Red Temple there because his parents had so many children that when he was born they felt unable to afford to raise him. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, acwill07 said:

I don't see him abandoning the NW in Jon I either, but I think it's going to happen sooner rather than later.  I just don't believe he will see it as a betrayal.  His brothers betrayed him, and they were doomed to be destroyed anyway because they refused to work with the Wildlings....hell most of them couldn't even see that every single man left north of the Wall would be one more wight to fight against.

I just think that when Jon either comes back from the dead or recovers from his wounds he is going to have had an epiphany that he must leave the Wall in order to ultimately save the realms of men.  I wouldn't be surprised if he hands his command off to someone a la the show, and then heads south.

Obviously this is all speculation.  I honestly have never given thought to Jon being trained as a warg.....maybe he never gets fully trained as one and he simply always has this latent power and connection with Ghost.....who knows.

 

Like I said, it just does not fit with his character to walk out on the watch.As for him seeing they are doomed to be destroyed anyway. He is the type who would rather go down with them than abandon them.  As for refusing to work with the wildlings, whilst the watch are mostly uncomfortable with it it is only a handful that are directly taking action to fight against the idea. you seem to forget that the vast majority of them just voted Jon as LC. The attackers are only a handful out of what 200 men? 

Why? why is leaving the wall the only way to save the realms of men? What purpose does it actually serve and what can he achieve as a deserter that he can not achieve as LC? 

 

You do the entire story a great disservice when you assume that things will happen as they have done in the TV program, the TV program has enormous plot holes, frequently going against characters personalities, and ignores information and events from previous seasons in order to add "drama" and take short cuts. If Jon were to walk out on the NW he would make himself a deserter and thus forfeit his own life. Approaching those northern lords for help would be pointless if instead of listening to him they behead him for desertion. The books are NOT the show. Only a half dozen or so NW men are involved in the assassination attempt out of what 200? iirc. so it is hardly as if the majority are against him, hell they just voted for him, despite the wildlings. 

It isn't speculation though as basically, you are arguing that things will pan out in the same way as they have done in the TV program, which is unlikely due to the fact the TV program is a crock of shite. 

you have never given thought to Jon being a trained as a warg? seriously?  So you think that what? Only Bran out of 6 kids will ever be fully in charge of his animal? Come on.... why would a writer give one of his main characters a dire wolf who he can be inside of and not develop that aspect of his characterisation? Why would he send him an older skinchanger, name the character, name the animal and have him call him brother if he does not intend on having that character play a role in the main character's story?  Utterly absurd mate. What do you think Boraq is there for? yet another skinchanger to have work against Jon? come on, we've been down that rd twice already that would not make litterary sense.  Jon has wrestled with his warg side throughout the books both rejecting it and loving Ghost. People see his ability and he wishes they would not, he is disturbed by his warg side but has been slowly coming to terms with it, what he needs narratively at this point is a tutor. Because having Ghost is a part of him which is not going away and which can actively help him in the battle to come. 

Who knows? well anyone with a half decent grasp on how story telling works. 

[bent branch]

Dying at this point in the story? Extremely unlikely.

Dying at the end of the story? 50/50

Turning evil? I think there is some chance, but it is very small.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't think he is going to have a chance to meet Jeyne.  Theon told her to maintain the masquerade of being Arya for a reason, and that won't happen if she immediately sees Jon.  I expect her to arrive just after the attack on Jon, and be sent on to Eastwatch and then to Braavos to keep her away from Ramsay. 

I think her importance is to Arya's story, not Jon's.  I expect them to meet and for her to tell Arya all about events in the North and LF, inspiring Arya to return to Westeros.  

I do agree with in that I expect the Starks to have a reunion at Winterfell around the end of TWOW, though.  And I think that Jon is too dedicated to the NW and its mission to simply leave.  If he does leave to take up politics, it will be because he feels that that is the best way to carry out its mission.  

 

Yes, the reason is so that anyone who she comes across treats her well and assists her out of loyalty to Ned. Her passage to the wall will go far smoother as Arya Stark than as no mark Jeyne pool.  Why would she be sent to Eastwatch? if she arrives whilst Jon is down and out surely it makes sense to keep her at CB until he is awake again.  If they believe her his sister, whom he risked all for why would they send her away as soon as she arrived?  Ramsey is unlikely to arrive at CB hot on her heels, and word of his death during the battle of Ice may have reached CB by then anyway.  Jon can't be dead for more than a day or so or he'd end up a semi-decomposed freak like Cat, unlikely as that has been done already and repeating yourself does not make a good story and he may not even be dead. 

Her importance may be to Arya's storyline, I've heard plenty of people argue this before.  What is it about meeting Jeyne and hearing about LF's abuse of her that makes you think Arya would return to Westeros as a result? why would she care that much about the girl who bullied her and stood between her and her sister? enough to undergo another arduous journey without resources to provide food and comfort to exact revenge. 

Jeyne is Sansa's friend not Arya's.  And Sansa has the prophecy to take down LF not Arya. Jeyne matters to Sansa not Arya, she recalls her friend numerous times and has the added guilt of having been spared her fate due to her higher birth.  Plus LF would be right there for the offing with Sansa no one needs to go on a book long journey to exact revenge on him. 

As I say i've heard the argument that Arya will meet Jeyne and be inspired to return to Westeros but i find it weak and unconvincing. feel free to try to convince me though. 

And in your last paragraph, I agree. He is not going to abandon the NW, the hard work is at the wall. Stannis is on track to beat back the Freys and destroy the Bolton's. And has followed Jon's advice in order to win over the mountain clans, once he has taken WF the North can get behind the NW. Because Stannis is already on side and can spread the word re the Others. With both the LC ( remember Jon/Mormont already sent letters out but was largely ignored)  and the notoriously straight-talking Stannis Baratheon imploring people to pay attention, this shit is really happening there is far more chance of the northern lords listening. 

And as I said we already know Sansa and LF will arrive at WF at some point because of the Snowcastle scene, so it makes sense that they take advantage of hearing of Stannis having taken the castle and heading North, either once they have dealt with the Tyrion situation, and hoping Stannis will follow protocol and hand her the castle or I feel more likely once they hear Stannis succumbed to a wound or illness and WF is wide open for the taking. Setting her up to re-build the castle with LF's cash and enact the prophecy once Jon rocks up to ask for help and tells all re Jeyne. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 27/04/2017 at 8:55 AM, Darkstream said:

Sounds great. Thanks!

Here is the revised version of my write-up of the known magic in the series. It is from a thread about the Royces which went somewhat OT and in which I developed an idea regarding the Bolton's flaying and how that, in fact, could perhaps be a form of magic, namely the same magic the Faceless Men use when they wear the flayed faces of the dead. Which not only transforms the wearer into an exact likeness of the deceased but also grants them access to their memories.  And I did indeed get around to writing up that Woods Witches idea too which I have linked for you at the bottom, just in case you decide you'd like to read it.  

Posted March 27 · Report post

very interesting Seams. 

I've just been and re read my OP from my magic thread and I can see that at that time I had categorised the magics as

Earth:

• Jojen swallows mud and gets a fever which leaves him with green dreams. 
• Trees are of course connected to the earth, they grow out of it and take their nourishment from it.and the weirwoods, of course, enable the greenseers to see, Bran has to physically be in connection to a tree to see through its eyes and he has to consume the sap or its seed. BR is physically entwined with the tree. 
• it is said some crannog men can breathe mud

Air:

• Alys Rivers in the princess and the queen sees visions in Storm clouds. 
• in the world book, we are told it was said the children of the forest could call upon the air to fight on their behalf
• Aeromancers, whatever these are. A form of magic practised still in Asshai. Certainly sounds like Air magic.

Fire: 

• Healing, MMD tells Dany there is great healing power in Fire magic, though she doesn't demonstrate it to Dany, she seems to imply she knows how to do it. 
• Moqorro does heal Victarion's arm using Fire magic and he sings in an undulating voice whilst doing it
• Daenerys survives the Pyre, and some theories say she does this because MMD is casting a protection spell, a spell to protect from the effects of fire, She is singing in a high undulating voice. Much like Moqorro healing Vics arm. 
• MMD casts a powder into the fire which sends people running in fear from the tent. the powder is seemingly activated by the fire, Mel later tells us in her POV chapter that red priests use such powders. 
• Of course, the Red Priests use flames to see visions. 
• Alys Rivers again uses cook fires to see much and more according to Aemond Targaryen 
• Thoros brings Beric back to life with a special prayer (or spell) and breaths a flame into him, which rouses him to life
• Beric (not a red priest) simply breathes this flame into the lifeless body of Catelyn Stark, she rises and he dies, implying it is the fire itself doing the work, not the act of the priest (ie not through a god) or the words of the spell/prayer, though sure enough the prayer or spell could be necessary to create this very special flame?
• Dragons certainly seem to be magical and are undoubtedly connected to fire, they are described as fire made flesh in fact.
• Mel burns the eagle out of the sky.
• in Asshai there are Pyromancers listed, separately to Red Priests.
• wildfire - A substance made through alchemy, but which is much easier whilst magic has a strong presence in the world.

Water:

• the hammer of the waters, the children of the forest apparently called up the sea itself in order to smash the arm of Dorne and halt the passage of the first men. 
• the neck, again they children called upon the water element to sever the north, it did not fully work. 
• the crannog men, apparently have the ability to run on water.
• the Rhoynish we learn in the world book could magically manipulate the waters of the Rhoyne to fight the Valyrians. They seemingly had great powerful water magic. 
• the crannog men have a castle/castles which float about and disappear on the waters of the neck
• the great silver sea which existed where there is now the great grass sea was home to the fisher Queens whose palace floated continually about the shoreline of the huge lake. 
• Alys again see's stuff in puddles, so that adds water to her list

Blood & Shadow magic:

• There are Bloodmaeges in Asshai, and MMD tells Dany that what she is going to use to raise Drogo she learnt from a bloodmaege. She cuts the horse with an ancient looking glyph covered beaten copper blade and scares everyone out with the fire activated powder, she kills the stallion, but we know Rhaego dies as well, we do not know for certain if he dies directly due to the acts of MMD. ( I have since become more and more convinced that killing the stallion is just for show and it is a fact "Only death can pay for life is utter bollocks Thoros does not kill anyone to rasie Beric.)
• obviously, as I mentioned Bloodmaeges exist, they seem to be expert in blood magic.
• Valyrians seem to have used a combination of fire magic and blood magic, the Targaryens used this as their house words once they passed from a Valryian family to being a Westerosi house.
• The Dragon Binding horn seems to be a combo of fire and blood magic as it kills by burning the blowers inside/lungs out and one assumes the death/blood is what binds the Dragon to the owner. We are still unclear as to if and how this horn actually works. !!This is actually another example of Runic/Glyph magic such as we see in the Royce's armour. as well as being fire and blood-related. I think that only a Fire Wight can blow the horn. Fire for blood-Mel speaks of the fire inside her and we see with Beric that there is an actual flame he passes to cat.
• The magic MMD performs to raise Drogo may use shadows too, so I have combined these two magic's, maybe she was using two forms of magic to raise him, maybe the shadows where a separate spell, one to murder Rhaego in his mothers womb (have grown to believe the shadows area separate magic, performed to awe and add to the sense of foreboding and fear she is conjuring, and that MMD didn't kill Rhaego, but that he, in fact, died because he was a "dragon baby" we see several such births in the stories and none of them live beyond their births. One manages an hour. But it seems pretty clear these Targ Dragon Babies can't survive outside the womb.  Maybe MMD conjured the shadows via the sperm of the Dothraki who raped her? or are they really the dead as she seems to tell Dany, either way it seems the raising of Drogo may involve both fire & blood and shadow. Or as I now suspect just fire magic (just the fire kiss in fact, but she isn't that great at it and she loses his consciousness.) and she's utilising her other skills to make her look even more impressive and dangerous. We are told of the powder(proof she's bluffing imo), and she specifically asks for a brazier, makes me think it serves a purpose in the spell, and it's not just that she wants a fire in the tent to warm it. MMD sings in an Ululating voice. Quite a lot of the magics in world seem to involve singing. and shadows are seen dancing in the tent. some do not seem human, so obviously some do, one is a great wolf (obviously brings the Starks to mind, though I'm not sure there is a connection) and a burning man, no sigil is a burning man as far as I know. The shadows dance around the bloody tent and we are told several times that there is fire during this chapter, which all contributes to a sense of rising mania, fire, singing which sounds inhuman, shadows dancing blood everywhere and fighting outside, Dany's labour pains are described in violent language and she dreads being taken into the tent and seems to know instinctively that the spell is killing her baby. (Again, I don't think the spell did kill him anymore, but certainly, dany in this instance thinks there is truly danger in her entering the tent against MMD's instructions.)
• Shadow babies, it seems that Melisandre who travelled to Asshai and learnt shadow binding there. When Stannis is going to fight Renly she has sex with him, and using his sperm draws his life force from him and gestates a shadow, which she births and which assassinates Renly for them, She repeats this magic to kill Cortney Penrose at Storms end. 
• Shadow binders are a group of magic practitioners in Ashai,  Quaithe is a Shadow Binder, she wears the red lacquered mask which distinguishes her as one, MMD and Melisandre are not shadow Binders but both have learnt and can utilise their learning in order to use the magics of shadow. Quithe also seems to use the glass candles which were of Valyrian origin, as can archmaester Marwyn. Who we know taught MMD and has been to Asshai himself. & who also says he has learnt shadowbinding.
• Glass candles, no one knows what makes these work, but I have included them here as they are a Valyrian artefact, maybe the candles use blood magic to work, or shadow magic perhaps? 
• Maybe shadow magic is related to blood magic? it seems the shadows Melisandre births are created using Stannis's life force through his semen, when Dany has her house of the undying vision she see's a king with no shadow, which we widely interpret as being Stannis after Mel has taken his life force to create the assassins, she tells Jon he would give her great strong powerful ingredients with which to make magic, (sorry I was avoiding using any language which made it sound like she thinks Jon has super spunk.lol) Maybe shadow magic isn't to do with blood magic maybe it is to do with the black stone? Maybe the black stone is a separate kind of magic altogether, maybe the black stone is the moon which shattered releasing the Dragons into the world?

 

Skinchanging/Wargs:

• We first meet the Starks, who once they receive the Direwolf pups begin to form a bond with them each child seems to influence their pup to be like themselves and each wolf we know becomes part of the warg too, as GRRM has said in SSM's. We meet the starks and find this animal is their house sigil, and that the kings and lords in their crypt are depicted with a direwolf at his feet. Wear Starks historically wargs? have they always had the ability, with the direwolf itself being needed to awaken the ability? could Starks have connected to other animals too, were Lyanna and Brandon really half a horse themselves? A couple of Centaurs? were they warging their horses? 
• we quickly find out the Starks are not alone in their ability we meet Orrel a Wildling who skinchanges an eagle
• Varamyr six skins who has various different animals, and through whom we learn a warg goes into his familiar after death
• Hagon who we do not meet but who taught Varymyr the rules of skinchanging and lived on in his old one-eyed wolf
• Borraq, with his great boar
• we also learn from the Wildlings that Skinchangers are more frequent north of the wall, where the first men blood is strong, or is it just where magic is still strong? is the wall really made of that black stone? and just coated in ice? 
• Children of the forest were said to be able to call beasts to fight for them, and this hints that they were indeed skinchangers
• and in Asshai, again, we hear of shapechangers?
• Bran of course begins using Ravens once he meets BR, and can slip hodor, whom he knows well and has a good bond with
• Bloodraven obviously wargs Raven's and being as he is a Blackwood descendent from Raven tree hall, it seems probable or possible at least that Blackwood blood leans towards Ravens as their natural familiar, but likewise, Bloodraven seems to have used many animals to slip over his years.
• Arya, of course, slips a cat, whom she has been around a lot, which I think shows a bond is needed in order to inhabit an animal the first time. 
• Sansa seems to be headed towards slipping a bird ; my guess is that it will be a Merlin. And may have already at the Eyrie when she "see's" Marliion in the sky cell. 

So, I'm now suspecting that people who can Skinchange can basically slip any animals, but that various families have aligned themselves with different animals.

And I'll add my newer Bolton Skin reading magic into the Blood magic section I think. As it is necessary to spill blood to use it, and if it is a thing, and is basically the same as the FM's face wearing then I'd say given the info we get via Arya on that that it is definitly a form of blood magic.

Another thing worthy of note is the Magic of Woodswitches; another thing I keep meaning to start a thread on. Again I think they're/were just using various magic forms. The one which strikes me is Nimble Dick telling Brienne that the wife of his folk hero (have forgotten his name) would kiss the decapitated heads of her husband's foes and place the now re-animated heads in a cave at the Whispers-giving it its name. Again I suspect this is the same kiss Thoros uses on Beric but without the religious claims.  

Here is the subsequent Woods Witches thread I started, if you want to read more. Personally I think it is well worth reading if you are interested in the various forms of magics in universe. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145699-woodswitches-a-comprahensive-study-of-their-roles-past-future-present/

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

TL;DR version, I think we can't trust a word MMD says cos she proves she is full of shit by using the fear powder and making grand but false statements - Only death can pay for life- Not true, as proven by Thoros. And the fact she is secretive regarding the spell by not only telling everyone to leave, and not under any circumstances come back into the tent, but also using the fear powder to ensure it.  The fact her spell is absurdly elaborate with the blood and the shadows and the singing. The fact she specifically asks for a fire and we know Thoros breathed an actual flame into Beric because Beric breaths it into Cat in turn and Mel says there is a fire inside her.  So the fire kiss must involve using flame.

Well it all smacks of the wizard of Oz insisting no one look behind the curtain doesn't it!  So I think MMD used the fire kiss to raise Drogo and simply used every trick up her sleave to appear as powerfull and frightening as possible in the face of most probably being killed by the dothraki after his death. in a bid to come across as too powerful to mess with.

[TheSeer27]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thoros is not a fire wight? He has never been raised from the dead, nor has he ever been married, and he knows full well that he is from Myr and that he was gifted to the Red Temple there because his parents had so many children that when he was born they felt unable to afford to raise him. 

oh shit woops, I meant Beric Dondarrion not Thoros...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

49 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

oh shit woops, I meant Beric Dondarrion not Thoros...

Well, technically Beric does not have a wife either. though he does have a betrothed.  

But Beric has been kissed I think if I am recalling correctly about half a dozen or so times.  And he tells us that his amnesia has been a progress, each time he loses a bit more of himself.  this loss of one's self is not something which happens the very first time a person is raised. 

[El Guapo]

Die permanently or come back evil?  Both options sound great to me!

[TheSeer27]

19 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well, technically Beric does not have a wife either. though he does have a betrothed.  

But Beric has been kissed I think if I am recalling correctly about half a dozen or so times.  And he tells us that his amnesia has been a progress, each time he loses a bit more of himself.  this loss of one's self is not something which happens the very first time a person is raised. 

Yea, but George isn't the type to kill someone and then bring them back the same, so something has to change in Jon. Probably not so significant as his memories, maybe just his perception on The Watch and the situation with the Wildlings. But I do wonder what fake Arya's role will be and if she will come into contact with Jon if he is resurrected.

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, the reason is so that anyone who she comes across treats her well and assists her out of loyalty to Ned. Her passage to the wall will go far smoother as Arya Stark than as no mark Jeyne pool.  Why would she be sent to Eastwatch? if she arrives whilst Jon is down and out surely it makes sense to keep her at CB until he is awake again.  If they believe her his sister, whom he risked all for why would they send her away as soon as she arrived?  Ramsey is unlikely to arrive at CB hot on her heels, and word of his death during the battle of Ice may have reached CB by then anyway.  Jon can't be dead for more than a day or so or he'd end up a semi-decomposed freak like Cat, unlikely as that has been done already and repeating yourself does not make a good story and he may not even be dead. 

Her importance may be to Arya's storyline, I've heard plenty of people argue this before.  What is it about meeting Jeyne and hearing about LF's abuse of her that makes you think Arya would return to Westeros as a result? why would she care that much about the girl who bullied her and stood between her and her sister? enough to undergo another arduous journey without resources to provide food and comfort to exact revenge. 

Jeyne is Sansa's friend not Arya's.  And Sansa has the prophecy to take down LF not Arya. Jeyne matters to Sansa not Arya, she recalls her friend numerous times and has the added guilt of having been spared her fate due to her higher birth.  Plus LF would be right there for the offing with Sansa no one needs to go on a book long journey to exact revenge on him. 

As I say i've heard the argument that Arya will meet Jeyne and be inspired to return to Westeros but i find it weak and unconvincing. feel free to try to convince me though.

I expect that she will arrive very shortly (a day or so) after the Pink Letter.  (I am not sure about the timing on this, but then, George has not been very good about synchronizing such things in any event.)  Even if she arrives several days later, Jon could be still out of commission.  If he wargs Ghost, and his body is placed on ice, both mind and body could stay intact for several days, at least.  (Or so the theory goes.).  Or he might be seriously injured and comatose, similar to how Bran was.  In any case, it would cause maximum anguish to Jon if he thought he had just missed his sister, and that is something George likes to do to his characters.

I think Ramsay sent the PL, although I have doubts about the truth of its contents.  In any event, I don't think he is dead, so I don't think the NW will receive notification that he is.  Whether or not he is hot on her tail, I expect the NW will think that he is and will want to get her and the others on his list out of the way to avoid a fight.  "Arya Stark?  Haven't seen her", or "She went with the others on your list.  We didn't have the forces available to stop them."  Also, take note that she is traveling with two men who are definitely traveling to Braavos, so traveling on to Braavos would make sense.

As to Arya's story, it is the most difficult to figure out.  But my idea of her meeting Jeyne goes something like this:  She hears about events in the North, that they are so desperate for a stark that they are willing to fight, kill and die for her (Arya) sight unseen.  That, combined with her wolf dreams with Nymeria, and the fact that, after the events of the preview chapter, she is likely to be on thin ice with the FM, would make her decide to return to Westeros.  I doubt any of these in isolation would be enough, but in combination, it could do the trick.  In any event, I firmly believe that Arya is returning to Westeros, and sooner rather than later, and this is as good a way as any to make that happen.   

[a black swan]

24 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I expect that she will arrive very shortly (a day or so) after the Pink Letter.  (I am not sure about the timing on this, but then, George has not been very good about synchronizing such things in any event.)  Even if she arrives several days later, Jon could be still out of commission.  If he wargs Ghost, and his body is placed on ice, both mind and body could stay intact for several days, at least.  (Or so the theory goes.).  Or he might be seriously injured and comatose, similar to how Bran was.  In any case, it would cause maximum anguish to Jon if he thought he had just missed his sister, and that is something George likes to do to his characters.

I think Ramsay sent the PL, although I have doubts about the truth of its contents.  In any event, I don't think he is dead, so I don't think the NW will receive notification that he is.  Whether or not he is hot on her tail, I expect the NW will think that he is and will want to get her and the others on his list out of the way to avoid a fight.  "Arya Stark?  Haven't seen her", or "She went with the others on your list.  We didn't have the forces available to stop them."  Also, take note that she is traveling with two men who are definitely traveling to Braavos, so traveling on to Braavos would make sense.

As to Arya's story, it is the most difficult to figure out.  But my idea of her meeting Jeyne goes something like this:  She hears about events in the North, that they are so desperate for a stark that they are willing to fight, kill and die for her (Arya) sight unseen.  That, combined with her wolf dreams with Nymeria, and the fact that, after the events of the preview chapter, she is likely to be on thin ice with the FM, would make her decide to return to Westeros.  I doubt any of these in isolation would be enough, but in combination, it could do the trick.  In any event, I firmly believe that Arya is returning to Westeros, and sooner rather than later, and this is as good a way as any to make that happen.   

Ad the fact that George has already hinted via Jon that "Arya" might end up in Braavos as a way to keep her safe away from the CB. The fact that Jeyne ends up in the hands of an Iron Banker is very convenient.

Jeyne is important to Arya's arc, especially with her issues of Identity being so central to her story. What could be more jarring than having to face "yourself" and all the torturous things that happened to Jeyne who was forced to live Arya Stark's fate. She has spent all this time running away from "Arya" meanwhile Jeyne is living the highborn status she secretly wished for in Book 1. GRRM with his grim irony at work. 

Also, Jeyne is starting to fall apart (losing part of her face to Winter) having her arrive to the HoBW is so apt. Perhaps Arya will hear of Ramsay's crimes, particularly poor Jeyne, and she may add him to her prayer list. Perhaps Jeyne might even offer up Ramsay to the MFG and choose to remain safe in the HoBW and serve like the Waif. Arya can return to Westeros as "Arya Stark".  

[Nevets]

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Also, Jeyne is starting to fall apart (losing part of her face to Winter) having her arrive to the HoBW is so apt. Perhaps Arya will hear of Ramsay's crimes, particularly poor Jeyne, and she may add him to her prayer list. Perhaps Jeyne might even offer up Ramsay to the MFG and choose to remain safe in the HoBW and serve like the Waif. Arya can return to Westeros as "Arya Stark".  

While it's certainly possible that Jeyne will show up at the HoB&W, I think it's far more likely that Arya will hear that "Arya Stark" is in town, and seek her out to meet her and find out what the hell is going on.  Finding out about Ramsay and the Northerners' desire for a Stark - any Stark, could have an effect.  

As for what Jeyne does, I think she might return with Arya.  Two is likely safer than one, and Jeyne can continue to pretend to be Arya, similar to what Myrcella and Rosamund did on the journey to Dorne.  When they decide it's safe, or they meet someone they know, Arya can reveal herself.  I don't see Jeyne as HoB&W material, and doubt that they would take her in exchange for Ramsay, who may well be dead by then in any case.

[Julia H.]

On 2017. 04. 26. at 0:21 AM, snow is the man said:

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

Turning Jon evil at a single stroke would mean wasting all the character development so carefully built up in five lengthy books. It would mean essentially replacing a major character with a totally new one - and all that happening so late in the story. I doubt GRRM would do that. 

As for Jon remaining permanently dead now - it would be rather bad story-telling, considering that his story is by no means finished yet. I don't think we have to worry about that. (Of course, it does not mean that Jon will necessarily be alive at the end of the series.) 

Changes in character will definitely happen, but they may be just changes that would result naturally from such a trauma. There may also be magical changes (depending on what is going to happen), but I think it's important that Jon should keep his humanity intact for the simple reason that he is humankind's "champion" against the Others, and because human readers can more easily sympathize or identify with a fully human hero. 

Regarding another question: I have my reservations about the idea that his watch will end because of a death that is not permanent.

On the one hand, I don't think Jon will use such an excuse or that GRRM would give him such a convenient way out. I think Jon will remain the shield that guards the realms of men whatever happens, and he will continue to consider himself a man of the Night's  Watch until one day he thinks that abandoning the Watch would serve his goal (of being the Shield) better or he thinks that being a man of the NW has become totally irrelevant to his life purpose. In that case, however, he will probably just admit being a deserter and damn the rules. He will simply do what must be done and he will not worry about finding a suitable pretext. The fight for survival will come first, and it will probably change quite a few things in Westeros anyway. If Jon ever starts worrying about oath-breaking, the fact that he has died once will not calm his conscience when he is obviously alive.

On the other hand, I doubt that this explanation would be accepted by Westerosi society unless something very extraordinary happens, something that parallels the birth of dragons, which put Dany above the usual (Dothraki) rules and which stopped people from wondering how she had survived the fire. (At least symbolically it is a death and rebirth motif, too.) Such a development would probably make Jon a legendary outcast in society. It is possible, of course, but then would he still need a "legal" excuse to get out of the NW? Probably not.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

Yea, but George isn't the type to kill someone and then bring them back the same, so something has to change in Jon. Probably not so significant as his memories, maybe just his perception on The Watch and the situation with the Wildlings. But I do wonder what fake Arya's role will be and if she will come into contact with Jon if he is resurrected.

 

You're missing my point, Coming back changed does not mean coming back entirely different. The evidence of the characters we know of who are or may likely be fire wights shows us that the change is not hugely profound And that the effects are cumulative.  People like to profess that Jon will be altered massively by the magic, I suspect mainly because they do not like his character as he is. But this ignores the fact that the changes brought about by the fire kiss are pretty subtle.   And bandying about the assertion that GRRM isn't the type to this that or the other does not negate the evidence of the actual text. That is that the changes are subtle, not profound. What seems to be the case is that a resurrected person becomes more focused on the things which mattered to them at the time of their death.  Beric forms the BWB and dedicates their efforts towards helping the smallfolk whom he had seen suffering the ravages of the war in their region.  Cat is focussed on killing Freys and it seems on Robbs legacy - indicated by her fondling of his crown.  If indeed Mellisandre is one and I wholly believe that she is, it would seem her focus is on AAR which would explain the level of fanaticism she displays in reference to her religious agenda.  And If I am also correct regarding Moqorro and again I feel strongly that it is highly likely given his feat of 10 days and nights adrift without food or water in the baking heat.  Then we are likely to see him focus also on AAR in looking to council Dany.  So given this tendency, we can hazard a guess that Jon's focus will remain on the wall and the fight against the Others.  And there is no reason for him to leave the NW to achieve that.  If anything his dedication to the watch will be heightened.  I do think he'll leave the watch eventually but that when that happens it will be because the watch no longer exists or he is released from his vows due to popular demand. 

Well, I think her role will be to tell Jon about LF, think about it. Jeyne was the last person from the Stark household to see the girls. He is going to want to speak with her and discover what happened in KL, to his father, and to his sisters. Jeyne can give him a first-hand account and would logically speak about how she was taken from the room she and Sansa had been placed in and taken to a brothel owned by LF and what happened to her there, maybe she knows some stuff about Baelish as a result? gossip amongst the whores, overheard discussion when he was doing business there etc. And she would go on to tell him about how one day they came to her and told her she was returning to WF and that she must pretend to be Arya. And how Ramsey treated her once she got there, and how Theon helped her escape. After that, she can go off to Braavos or whatever!  But I think that the fact she has ended up in the north and is headed to the wall is too pertinent to ignore. She has information which has the power to turn LF's dreams to ashes.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

 @Nevets The most up to date attempt at an accurate timeline has Jeyne leaving Stannis's encampment 10 days before the PL is received.  We know Stannis camp is 3 days march from WF, and we know Jon's journey to the wall in AGOT took more than 18 days but fewer than 30. splitting the difference gives us a 24 days journey add on the 3 days extra Jeyne has to travel and it should take her 29 days to get to the wall, but it could be as low as 23 if say that 18-day marker in AGOT was; say just two days before they arrived at the wall.  She's travelled 10 days according to the worked out timeline (which lots of people have worked on and I think is our best guess at the timeline of the books we have) so has at least another fortnight before she gets to the wall. Allowing for GRRM fudging the journey time even I doubt she'll arrive before Jon is revived/conscious again. By this point we have to admit that if he is indeed dead, that he has to be revived before a fortnight (minimum for Jeyne's remaining journey time.)because even left on ice his body wouldn't be in good enough shape at that point to give it a go. I mean if someone thinks hey I'm gonna try that magic spell I know on him, they're doing it long before he's been dead two weeks.   

So Jon is almost certainly going to be conscious when Jeyne arrives. Even if he is comatose like Bran was a fortnight + is unlikely. My guess is he'd only be unconscious a day or two at most as it is stab wounds not a head injury like Bran.  

Once she has told him what happened in KL and what LF did to her, and any other information she has gleaned about him through her time in his brothel; whores gossip. He likely uses the brothels as part of his rewards system for his lackey's and pillow talk is valuable.  Not to mention for meetings and a place to do business, who knows what she's overheard.  And after she spills to Jon she can bugger off to Braavos. 

I also think Ramsey wrote the PL. But don't think everything in it is true. Certainly, I don't think it was written after the battle of Ice but before it and that Stannis is not dead. I think Stannis is going to defeat the Boltons and Freys and take WF. Once word reaches the wall that Roose and Ramsey are dead - which could arrive there before Jeyne frankly. The NW have no reason to want to placate them or fear them. No need to rush Jeyne off to Braavos without seeing Jon first.

The problem I have with the idea that Jeyne will be why Arya returns to Westeros is that we get a big hint in TWOW Alayne that Jeyne matters to Sansa. And we know from the prophecy and the foreshadowing spanning all 5 books that Sansa not Arya will defeat LF. And Jeyne is motivation for her to do it. And Jeyne happening to be headed to Jon provides the ability for that information to be passed onto Sansa. Because again we know from the Foreshadowing and her own inner monologue that Sansa's desire is to return to WF and LF's plan is to get WF via her and that they will rebuild it together before she kills him. Once she and he are in WF Jon can easily go and see her and he has good reason to.. she will have resources which the watch needs and well, ffs, of course, he will want to see her. No matter how distant they were as children they are as far as both are aware all that they have left! 

I think Arya has her own reasons and motivations to return to Westeros but I think she has some further training with the FM first. Namely with the Black Pearl. Arya's TWOW chapter gave us a big clue as to why she will ultimately return home though.  

[MostlyMoody]

Jon is going to continue on the same path he was on til the last book. He will be resurrected and change, although not too much to become a different character. Maybe more cynical, driven, moody, what have you. 

The reason for this is George can't alienate most of his audience by flipping the "main hero" trope on its head until the Dream of Spring is sold. People got really pissed when the Red Wedding happened, and Rob wasn't even a major POV character.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 4/25/2017 at 3:21 PM, snow is the man said:

I'm curious on this. I think he is coming back and will still be himself but I am worried that GRRM will decide to make the "good" character evil. Like since he died he turns evil and somehow fights for the others. I have heard a few theories on it involving the ice dragon and such. What do you think.

 

Personally I think it will be fine and it is just a way for him to get out of the nights watch vows.

He will be resurrected and be just fine. Original POV characters don't become evil. They sometimes do wrong/bad things like telling on their dad and breaking the letter of their vows, but they tend to right their own ship 

[Nevets]

@The Weirwoods Eyes It seems that we are more in agreement than not.  I agree that Jeyne Poole will play a major role in the story going forward, and that she has information about LF that Sansa will likely find quite interesting.  I also think that Jeyne will find a way to get that information to Sansa, and that will have an effect on her relationship with LF.  Where we disagree is on the mechanism.  I think it will be through Arya, and you think it is through Jon.  I expect Arya (and maybe Jeyne) to meet Sansa (possibly at WF) and pass on what she has learned about LF.  I completely agree that LF's ultimate fate is essentially Sansa's responsibility.

Part of my reasoning for believing that Jon and Farya will not meet is that that would create maximum angst for Jon, although I admit that their having meeting has certain advantages, such as giving Jon a dilemma as to what to do with her and whether to out her as a fake.  If he does out her, he is going to have to find someplace to put her (Long Barrow, maybe?), as I doubt anyone is going to be all that interesting in taking "Jeyne Poole" with them.

As for the battle in the ice, I expect neither side will gain a decisive victory, and that the Boltons will retain possession of Winterfell, at least for the time being.  Stannis may or may not be in a position to besiege it.  In any case, there will be no reason to doubt that he is alive and could be coming for the wall.  

As for the timing of Jeyne arriving shortly after the PL, I would anticipate that a small party on horseback riding quickly can make better time than Jon did, especially since part of his journey contained recruits that, I think were on foot.  In any case, they weren't in a big hurry.  Jeyne's party likely will be.  If it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 days, the timing more or less works.  At least as well as it's going to in Martin-land  (As you might have guessed, I have less than total faith in the timeline available.  I admit to its precision, but have significant doubts about its actual accuracy)