Who tried to kill Bran?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

So, recently I've watched the last PJ video (a very good one for that matter)

 

 

Bahahahahahahhahah!!

But seriously. No, it was Joffrey.  

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

I too have to agree with Joffrey being the one who hired the assassin.
Let's face it. If the Lannister brothers came to the same conclusion whilst not talking about it together, those are 2 very strong clues. The third clue is of course Joffreys look at Tyrion when they start talking about a Valyrian dagger with a dragonbone hilt.

The George always works in 3 steps, however in this case, not necessarily mini-hint, hint and bombshell.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

I know people usually don't like Jacob's videos about theories. But some of you guys are just ignoring the evidence against Joffrey. The logic behind the "reveal" is flawed as fuck. The fact he knew Valyrian steel means nothing, the fact that tyrion missheard the conversation about "killing a wolf" (where joffrey said dog), the fact that he hired an assassin while doesn't giving 0 fucks about Bran in the entire book until talking to Robert. I agree that it could be just a disappointing closure, but all the evidence that was Joffrey come from 2 unreliable sources, one was drunk and the other didn't have all the evidence on hands.

[ftheking]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 Discussing it after the reveal is as pointless as it gets.

There was no reveal. How can you call Tyrion's dumb musings - while beyond angry at Joffrey - a reveal? That's like saying Cersei revealed that Tyrion and Sansa murdered Joffrey. No really, it is. 

Quote

If the Lannister brothers came to the same conclusion whilst not talking about it together, those are 2 very strong clues

If one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff hated Bran so much that he wanted to murder him, and one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff wanted to mercy-kill Bran (LOL forever at Jamie. It's like he never met the kid) because he was experiencing a fate worse than death and Joffrey thought he might impress Daddy Robert with the action (LMAO) ... we have two very strong clues that their conclusion is bs.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

13 minutes ago, ftheking said:

If one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff hated Bran so much that he wanted to murder him, and one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff wanted to mercy-kill Bran (LOL forever at Jamie. It's like he never met the kid) because he was experiencing a fate worse than death and Joffrey thought he might impress Daddy Robert with the action (LMAO) ... we have two very strong clues that their conclusion is bs.

And for that matter, we never see in the book any hatred from Joffrey towards Bran, we see just unsensitivy towards his state. Sandor clegane is the one saying he should be killed out of mercy and Joffrey says something like "I couldn't care less". So he neither had hatred or mercyful feelings about Bran

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

21 minutes ago, ftheking said:

There was no reveal. How can you call Tyrion's dumb musings - while beyond angry at Joffrey - a reveal? That's like saying Cersei revealed that Tyrion and Sansa murdered Joffrey. No really, it is. 

If one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff hated Bran so much that he wanted to murder him, and one Lannister comes to the conclusion that Joff wanted to mercy-kill Bran (LOL forever at Jamie. It's like he never met the kid) because he was experiencing a fate worse than death and Joffrey thought he might impress Daddy Robert with the action (LMAO) ... we have two very strong clues that their conclusion is bs.

Then you will, to the end of your days, wonder who tried to kill Bran, because this is what you get. The issue, who tried to have Bran killed, won't be revisited. I'm sorry. (Not really).

[The hairy bear]

George said, once he had finished writing A Storm of Swords:

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at.

So, it's settled. We shouldn't waste more time in this.

And yes, as a mystery is one of George's weakest plots. Not only the resolution includes several hardly justified leaps of faith, but also Littlefinger lying about the ownership of the dagger in front of Varys, or stupidity of committing a high profile murder with an expensive recognizable weapon, are very weak spots. But it is what it is. George has decided it's a closed case, and we should treat is as such.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I know people usually don't like Jacob's videos about theories. But some of you guys are just ignoring the evidence against Joffrey. The logic behind the "reveal" is flawed as fuck. The fact he knew Valyrian steel means nothing, the fact that tyrion missheard the conversation about "killing a wolf" (where joffrey said dog), the fact that he hired an assassin while doesn't giving 0 fucks about Bran in the entire book until talking to Robert. I agree that it could be just a disappointing closure, but all the evidence that was Joffrey come from 2 unreliable sources, one was drunk and the other didn't have all the evidence on hands.

 

We don't like them because they are ridiculous and his "theories" are weak and easily dismantled. 

The question you have to ask yourself is, what possible purpose could Bran's would-be killer being as yet not revealed serve? Because unless it is going to play into the plot somehow it is pointless

And yes, GRRM said it would be case closed in ASOS. 

[ftheking]

36 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Then you will, to the end of your days, wonder who tried to kill Bran, because this is what you get. The issue, who tried to have Bran killed, won't be revisited. I'm sorry. (Not really).

If it's not revisited I will 1) continue to be certain that it wasn't Joffrey as the text makes that completely plain to me.and 2) assume it was Littlefinger, as that makes the most sense with the information given, until the end of my days.

[The hairy bear]

@ftheking

When the author tells you it's Joffrey, and you insist that it's not, I don't think there's anything else we can say to convince you.

[Nittanian]

42 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

And yes, as a mystery is one of George's weakest plots. Not only the resolution includes several hardly justified leaps of faith, but also Littlefinger lying about the ownership of the dagger in front of Varys, or stupidity of committing a high profile murder with an expensive recognizable weapon, are very weak spots. But it is what it is. George has decided it's a closed case, and we should treat is as such.

Additionally, George mentions in that SSM:

Quote

The problem with all this speculating is that some of you are bound to guess the answers before I reveal 'em... and others may even come up with better answers than I do. Well, those are the risks one takes with such a project.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And for that matter, we never see in the book any hatred from Joffrey towards Bran, we see just unsensitivy towards his state. Sandor clegane is the one saying he should be killed out of mercy and Joffrey says something like "I couldn't care less". So he neither had hatred or mercyful feelings about Bran

Yes, that's established in the novel. Don't spend too much effort disproving a theory nobody supports.

And in the next line, incidentally, it's explained, what Joffrey's motivation actually was.

Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”

“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.”

The whole passage reads almost like an infodump, unfortunately. As if the author just wanted to be done with that loose end, so he just had two people explain to us that that had been Joffrey, and why.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Speaking of videos I just watch a good one from the Order of the Green Hand on this topic.  It gave me pause to think.  We have never had a POV from Littlefinger.  He is one of the most important figures in the books and after hundreds of POV chapters we still do not have one from Littlefinger!  I think GRRM is not providing us with Littlefinger's POV because LF has many of the answers to the mysteries that plague us all.  One of which is who hired the assassin.  My vote is for Joffrey, but as the GH suggests, under the influence of LF.  We have seen in the Books how characters are influenced by dreams.  We don't have a POV from Joffrey to know if he was influenced by dreams but if he was and if LF has a glass candle or other means of influencing dreams it would explain the logistical problem of him still being at KL.  So while I believe it needs to be more fully developed I am beginning to believe that LF is influencing our story not only by screaming, but by magic as well, and was responsible for some of Joffrey's more questionable decisions including hiring an assassin to kill Bran.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 minutes ago, Faceless Man Friday said:

Speaking of videos I just watch a good one from the Order of the Green Hand on this topic.  It gave me pause to think.  We have never had a POV from Littlefinger.  He is one of the most important figures in the books and after hundreds of POV chapters we still do not have one from Littlefinger!  I think GRRM is not providing us with Littlefinger's POV because LF has many of the answers to the mysteries that plague us all.  One of which is who hired the assassin.  My vote is for Joffrey, but as the GH suggests, under the influence of LF.  We have seen in the Books how characters are influenced by dreams.  We don't have a POV from Joffrey to know if he was influenced by dreams but if he was and if LF has a glass candle or other means of influencing dreams it would explain the logistical problem of him still being at KL.  So while I believe it needs to be more fully developed I am beginning to believe that LF is influencing our story not only by screaming, but by magic as well, and was responsible for some of Joffrey's more questionable decisions including hiring an assassin to kill Bran.

 

LF has no magical ability, there is no hints anywhere in the books that he has any magical leanings. If it turns out he had a Glass candle and was a powerful magic user all along that would be Deux ex Machina times ten thousand! 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

George said, once he had finished writing A Storm of Swords:

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at.

So, it's settled. We shouldn't waste more time in this.

And yes, as a mystery is one of George's weakest plots. Not only the resolution includes several hardly justified leaps of faith, but also Littlefinger lying about the ownership of the dagger in front of Varys, or stupidity of committing a high profile murder with an expensive recognizable weapon, are very weak spots. But it is what it is. George has decided it's a closed case, and we should treat is as such.

I know George said it. But the plot is too damn too weak. It's deeply underwhelming. And the logic used to reach the conclusion utterly flawed. But whatever, the topic was to start a discussion and It succeed at that. But  it's fun to wonder who Martin could put the blame on if he wanted.
But let's bear in mind something, just because 2 characters said something that has to be considered absolute truth. Otherwise 90% of the theories would blow up.

[zandru]

13 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Joffrey didn't care about Bran's state. Gregor Clegane was

That's Sandor, not Gregor. Apparently all of Westeros keeps getting them confused  ;-)

Re: Littlefinger being behind the attempted assassination of Bran: The big problem here is the distance from King's Landing. I can believe that a raven might be sent to KL to let them know the King's party would be delayed because of an unfortunate accident involving the new Hand's son. Fine. BUT - the issue is how Littlefinger would then engineer the assassination. The only apparent communication means that would be quick enough would be, once again, raven. But raven messages are dispatched BY maesters TO maesters. How could Littlefinger have been assured that Maester Luwin at Winterfell would receive a message dispatched to some inconspicuous man in the King's service which then told this "little bird" of a man that he needed to hire an unknown nobody to kill Lord Stark's ailing son? And, by the way, steal one of the King's daggers to do it with?

Just the act of receiving a (let's say it's coded) note designated for a member of the King's party would set off all the alarum bells. Plain text would have been totally unthinkable. So there's no way Littlefinger could have been behind this one. And how Bran's death could have benefited Baelish remains the question for motive.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

15 minutes ago, zandru said:

Just the act of receiving a (let's say it's coded) note designated for a member of the King's party would set off all the alarum bells. Plain text would have been totally unthinkable. So there's no way Littlefinger could have been behind this one. And how Bran's death could have benefited Baelish remains the question for motive.

Agreed, it can't be LF, but we have to accept the motive that made Joffrey start caring about Bran was really "robert's approval"? That's a little Bs for me, but anyhow, if George wanted thay way, who am I to say otherwise

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Faceless Man Friday said:

apologies for the tag my laptop is always doing this. It won't let me delete the quote box.

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

 

 

I'm not sure why you think the assasin is so important? But it is not in my opinion deeply underwhelming at all to discover it was Joffrey. The revelation that Joffrey a boy of 12 was responsible for an assasination attempt which could have killed Bran Stark and Lady Catelyn Stark is quite major, in terms of revealing just how depraved the boy is. What 12 year old would want to do such a thing? The same kind of 12 year old who cuts open a pregnant cat. The same kind whose younger brother needs to go away inside and who would strip and humiliate and beat the girl he is to marry for his own amusement.  The revelation it is Joffrey is part of his character building. This is one sick little boy. Also it gives an insight into the relationship between Robert and his children, and how Joffrey craved his fathers attention and aproval. It is not a major plot point in and of itself. But it does give the reader insight into Joffrey as a character. 

Also there is no way it was LF. He could not possibly orchestrate a hit from KL. Ravens only fly to set points and any raven ariving at WF is intercepted by Maester Lewin therefore any notes sent to some planted LF operative would never go unoticed. Never mind find there way to said operative. 

[zandru]

2 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

"robert's approval"

Well, not necessarily. Jaime assumed Joff craved Robert's approval, probably from his own feelings of having been un-fathered. Others have suggested Joff may have been trying to gain the approval of the Hound, who (Cersei, who is generally wrong about what other people think) thinks Joffrey regards as more of a father than Robert. Both of these motives are highly questionable, given that apparently Joffrey never told anyone he'd done it. If he'd wanted anyone's approval, he'd have made sure they knew what he did.

My thought is that Joffrey tried to have Bran offed because 1. His lack of response to Joff's injury caused his nasty dwarf uncle to hit him and embarass him publicly and in front of the Hound, plus Joff had to apologize to the Starks in front of everyone, and 2. Bran was soaking up all the attention and love, which rightly belonged to The Crown Prince (Joffrey, the Worst of His Name).

[Ser Loras The Gay]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

I'm not sure why you think the assasin is so important? But it is not in my opinion deeply underwhelming at all to discover it was Joffrey. The revelation that Joffrey a boy of 12 was responsible for an assasination attempt which could have killed Bran Stark and Lady Catelyn Stark is quite major, in terms of revealing just how depraved the boy is. What 12 year old would want to do such a thing? The same kind of 12 year old who cuts open a pregnant cat. The same kind whose younger brother needs to go away inside and who would strip and humiliate and beat the girl he is to marry for his own amusement.  The revelation it is Joffrey is part of his character building. This is one sick little boy. Also it gives an insight into the relationship between Robert and his children, and how Joffrey craved his fathers attention and aproval. It is not a major plot point in and of itself. But it does give the reader insight into Joffrey as a character. 

Also there is no way it was LF. He could not possibly orchestrate a hit from KL. Ravens only fly to set points and any raven ariving at WF is intercepted by Maester Lewin therefore any notes sent to some planted LF operative would never go unoticed. Never mind find there way to said operative. 

I never said it was important. I was just trying to start a discussion surronding one of the many plots on the book. For you it wasn't underwhelming but checking all the facts we have it doesn't add up. The motive is not that firm, the arguments that Tyrion makes are flawed and unreliable (he was angry and drunk at the moment). That's what bugs me about this especific plot. Seeing from a Character development point of view it makes sense that Joffrey did. But what I was questioning is if we can say for sure it was him. Again, the arguments and the motive are flawed or simply weak. that's all. He could have done it, but we don't have any reason to believe that.

 

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

My thought is that Joffrey tried to have Bran offed because 1. His lack of response to Joff's injury caused his nasty dwarf uncle to hit him and embarass him publicly and in front of the Hound, plus Joff had to apologize to the Starks in front of everyone, and 2. Bran was soaking up all the attention and love, which rightly belonged to The Crown Prince (Joffrey, the Worst of His Name).

It's better than the motives given by the books, but even so. Not that convincing. We know Joffrey is a sadistic bastard, but I can't see why kill Bran and not try to kill Tyrion for example. After all it was Tyrion who slaped him.