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Who tried to kill Bran?


Ser Loras The Gay

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I don't agree, I think his motive is pretty strong, he is a sick little fuck who likes exerting his power over people who are weaker than him. In this instance he saw the opportunity to dish out death to an actual human being - we know he enjoyed dishing it out to animals because of the cat story.  Sending a cat's paw is just a sign of his innate cowardice and the fact he has the power and ability to pay someone else to do it.  just like later on he doesn't strike Sansa himself but uses his power to make others do it for his own pleasure. 

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27 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, not necessarily. Jaime assumed Joff craved Robert's approval, probably from his own feelings of having been un-fathered. Others have suggested Joff may have been trying to gain the approval of the Hound, who (Cersei, who is generally wrong about what other people think) thinks Joffrey regards as more of a father than Robert. Both of these motives are highly questionable, given that apparently Joffrey never told anyone he'd done it. If he'd wanted anyone's approval, he'd have made sure they knew what he did.

My thought is that Joffrey tried to have Bran offed because 1. His lack of response to Joff's injury caused his nasty dwarf uncle to hit him and embarass him publicly and in front of the Hound, plus Joff had to apologize to the Starks in front of everyone, and 2. Bran was soaking up all the attention and love, which rightly belonged to The Crown Prince (Joffrey, the Worst of His Name).

I have to say I really like your way of thinking.  To me it makes more sense than the explanation that Jaime and Tyrion came out with.  Now since the author has confirmed it was Joffrey, to me Joffrey it is.

It crossed my mind that yes George wanted to tell us what kind of little monster Joff was.  However, I personally think that he drove himself into a plothole.  The prime intention was, IMHO, to get us readers to believe that Tyrion or, if too obvious given the dagger, some other Lannister did it.  Jaime and Cersei had the prime motive but both denied it.  Okay, Cersei could have been lying but unlikely to lie to Jaime when alone... So, to me GRRM got himself into a situation where no character fitted very convincingly but, as he wanted Tyrion to be innocent, and he needed the rift and the war between Lannisters and Starks the assassination attempt was completely necessary.  I would be than finding a believable culprit gave him nightmares.  Choosing, say Robert or Sandor would not feel satisfactory either.  Robert gave his two cents but wasn't going to risk his alliance with Ned over a boy who meant nothing to him.  Sandor would not kill  a child in cold blood even if he believed it would be a mercy.  Again, he merely gave his opinion.

I agree that if Joff's motivation was gaining admiration from either Robert or Sandor he would have given them at least a hint.  Jealousy of the attention Bran was getting fits better for me although I doubt the author thought of it that way.  George is a phenomenal writer but this series is very long and complex and he would have to be literally "perfect" as a writer if all the plots were absolutely brilliant and satisfactory, which he kind of admits himself when it says that sometimes readers come up with better explanations than his own.

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47 minutes ago, zandru said:

Re: Littlefinger being behind the attempted assassination of Bran: The big problem here is the distance from King's Landing.

Only if you assume someone wanted to kill Bran BECAUSE he had an accident, and why would you?

Of course anyone's first guess would be Cersei or Jamie tried to finish the job, because of what happened, but then we learn they didn't. Then there is the - weak -argument of a mercy kill, but apparently that didn't happen. There is no other motive to kill Bran JUST BECAUSE he had an accident. (and seriously, Joff can pay an assassin to kill someone with a weapon worth a fortune - but only a cripple wh lies dying as everyone thought?  That's just completely weird.)

LF might have paid an assassin to kill one of the Stark boys, whenever the situation arises. Actually that would be an incredibly clever plan on his part.

25 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

, and how Joffrey craved his fathers attention and aproval. It is not a major plot point in and of itself. But it does give the reader insight into Joffrey as a character.

Only that I highly disagree that Joff craved Robert's approval. I don't see any other proof of this. It doesn't seem to matter for Joffrey's character development at all.

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18 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree that if Joff's motivation was gaining admiration from either Robert or Sandor he would have given them at least a hint.  Jealousy of the attention Bran was getting fits better for me although I doubt the author thought of it that way.  George is a phenomenal writer but this series is very long and complex and he would have to be literally "perfect" as a writer if all the plots were absolutely brilliant and satisfactory, which he kind of admits himself when it says that sometimes readers come up with better explanations than his own.

That's basicly it. If George said it, it was him and case closed. But we can't simply state it wasn't a bit underwhelming. But you're right even Martin is fallible and his work is too damn complex for him to keep track of all the plots

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13 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

3) I think people who think Baelish is behind this are out of their minds. The logisitics make it next to impossible.

I'll admit I would need to brush up on the argument's against Littlefinger.

But that being said, we know he was partially behind the note from Lysa that was smuggled into Luwin's quarters. That and the way he tried to obscure the truth about the dagger after the fact. These facts would certainly not bode well for Petyr Baelish if he was on trial for the attempt on Bran's life.

I'm assuming that the logistical problems come from the unlikelihood that Baelish could have communicated the instructions to his (alleged) man in Winterfell? 

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My vote is for LittleFinger. Remember, he had someone in the kings party plant the box with the letter in it from Lysa, which basically made Ned go to King's Landing and become Hand. He was fueling the Stark/Lannister conflict. Preston brings up a good point. Why the Valyrian knife? Why not just suffocate him, hes already in a coma. Seems like it was used purposely to point blame someone in the King's party, most likely any of the Lannister's since Cat is already worried about them. Althouuuuuuuugh, I do like the Mance idea as well.

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56 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

why kill Bran and not try to kill Tyrion

His own uncle? A Lannister with more family seniority himself? Someone who his brother Jaime, Kings Guard and best sword in Westeros, loved? Plus the unpleasant fact that Tyrion was 10x smarter than him? Joffrey was clearly afraid of Tyrion. At least, he was until he got his bony little arse onto that Iron Throne. After that, all that saved Tyrion was the ongoing threats from his band of savage killers and Bron. Plus, Mama Cersei was out to get Tyrion, so why bother.

Bran was little and helpless, and at the time of his assassination, basically alone, protected by mere women, at best. Joffrey's a bully. That kind doesn't pick on people bigger or stronger than they are.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, not necessarily. Jaime assumed Joff craved Robert's approval, probably from his own feelings of having been un-fathered. Others have suggested Joff may have been trying to gain the approval of the Hound, who (Cersei, who is generally wrong about what other people think) thinks Joffrey regards as more of a father than Robert. Both of these motives are highly questionable, given that apparently Joffrey never told anyone he'd done it. If he'd wanted anyone's approval, he'd have made sure they knew what he did.

My thought is that Joffrey tried to have Bran offed because 1. His lack of response to Joff's injury caused his nasty dwarf uncle to hit him and embarass him publicly and in front of the Hound, plus Joff had to apologize to the Starks in front of everyone, and 2. Bran was soaking up all the attention and love, which rightly belonged to The Crown Prince (Joffrey, the Worst of His Name).

Text supports your #1

 

I’ll maintain that it’s Joffrey but that we’ve been given incomplete details because it’ll spoil future books. If at the end of the series it’s just Joff with no other explanation, then I’ll rant.

GRRM did resolve the issue with Joff and the dagger as he said, but that’s all he resolved. There are a lot of details which are unconfirmed and hopefully will be revealed in the future. He also said at the same time that other issues (referring to what exactly?) will not be resolved.

Jaime’s motivation as to it being wanting Robert’s approval looks very wrong in the light of the following. Jaime is Joffrey’s real father and he abandoned him so to speak, so this assumption on Jaime’s part may say more about Jaime than Joff.

ACOK Sansa I where Tyrion arrives in King’s Landing during Joff’s nameday tourney.

The dwarf went to one knee before the king. "Your Grace."

"You," Joffrey said.

"Me," the Imp agreed, "although a more courteous greeting might be in order, for an uncle and an elder."

"They said you were dead," the Hound said.

The little man gave the big one a look. One of his eyes was green, one was black, and both were cool. "I was speaking to the king, not to his cur."

"I'm glad you're not dead," said Princess Myrcella. (No comment from Joffrey)

"We share that view, sweet child." Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel."

Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey. (Gods had nothing to do with Ned, Bran or Robert)

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."  (the black beard reminds the reader that Robert isn’t Joff’s real father)

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

It often happens that when someone wants to lash out at someone and they can’t, they lash out against someone similar. It’s a motivation for rapists and serial killers who target a certain type. Joff was no doubt on the road to becoming both, if he wasn’t already.

Joff’s motivation for trying to kill Bran being revenge against Tyrion fits better with the content of the books. We can see from below that the animosity between Joff and Tyrion runs long and deep, well before the beginning of the story, and they may have always been at odds. Joff can’t lash out at Tyrion, so he lashes out at Bran (who in himself means nothing to Joff), because Tyrion cares about Bran, and because Bran is now a cripple, like Tyrion. As I said, serial killers often lash out against a target that is similar to the one they really want to attack. Motive being to take a strike at Tyrion makes more sense as the tension between Tyrion and Joff is played out repeatedly all through the books, but Joff’s feelings about Robert are not. 

AGOT Tyrion I:

"I am in no mood for your insolence today." Tyrion turned to his nephew. "Joffrey, it is past time you called on Lord Eddard and his lady, to offer them your comfort."

Joffrey looked as petulant as only a boy prince can look. "What good will my comfort do them?"

"None," Tyrion said. "Yet it is expected of you. Your absence has been noted."

"The Stark boy is nothing to me," Joffrey said. "I cannot abide the wailing of women." (why kill him, then?)

Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden.

"One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again."

"I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed.

Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed. (The use of the word “cheeks” instead of face may be a hint as to how Joff feels about this: Joff feels Tyrion has given him a different sort of 2 red cheeks—a spanking.)

"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"

The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run.

A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

"The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. The helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble.

"I pray he does," Tyrion Lannister replied. "If he forgets, be a good dog and remind him."

 

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4 minutes ago, zandru said:

His own uncle? A Lannister with more family seniority himself? Someone who his brother Jaime, Kings Guard and best sword in Westeros, loved? Plus the unpleasant fact that Tyrion was 10x smarter than him? Joffrey was clearly afraid of Tyrion. At least, he was until he got his bony little arse onto that Iron Throne. After that, all that saved Tyrion was the ongoing threats from his band of savage killers and Bron. Plus, Mama Cersei was out to get Tyrion, so why bother.

Bran was little and helpless, and at the time of his assassination, basically alone, protected by mere women, at best. Joffrey's a bully. That kind doesn't pick on people bigger or stronger than they are.

I didn't mean to start this kind of discussion. The question was. If he tried to kill Bran for others people action, why not kill those people instead. I don't understand his willness to kill Bran for simple sadistic reasons.

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8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Joff’s motivation for trying to kill Bran being revenge against Tyrion fits better with the content of the books. We can see from below that the animosity between Joff and Tyrion runs long and deep, well before the beginning of the story, and they may have always been at odds. Joff can’t lash out at Tyrion, so he lashes out at Bran (who in himself means nothing to Joff), because Tyrion cares about Bran, and because Bran is now a cripple, like Tyrion. As I said, serial killers often lash out against a target that is similar to the one they really want to attack. Motive being to take a strike at Tyrion makes more sense as the tension between Tyrion and Joff is played out repeatedly all through the books, but Joff’s feelings about Robert are not. 

This sounds like a really good analysis, and thanks for the quotes from the text! I have to note your closing quote, where the Hound tries to warn Tyrion about Joffrey. Who would know him better than the man who's at his side nearly all the time? This was not the first instance where Clegane tried to put Tyrion on watch about Joffrey's vindictiveness, but in each case, Tyrion simply dismissed it as typical Houndly "insolence."

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11 minutes ago, zandru said:

This sounds like a really good analysis, and thanks for the quotes from the text! I have to note your closing quote, where the Hound tries to warn Tyrion about Joffrey. Who would know him better than the man who's at his side nearly all the time? This was not the first instance where Clegane tried to put Tyrion on watch about Joffrey's vindictiveness, but in each case, Tyrion simply dismissed it as typical Houndly "insolence."

Irony at it's finest.

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8 minutes ago, zandru said:

This sounds like a really good analysis, and thanks for the quotes from the text! I have to note your closing quote, where the Hound tries to warn Tyrion about Joffrey. Who would know him better than the man who's at his side nearly all the time? This was not the first instance where Clegane tried to put Tyrion on watch about Joffrey's vindictiveness, but in each case, Tyrion simply dismissed it as typical Houndly "insolence."

The Hound is definitely very prominent in these scenes and GRRM has other characters wonder why Joff is so attached to him, so I think GRRM wants us to wonder that too.

Tyrion's and the Hound's height differences are mentioned in both scenes but otherwise they're not unlike each other. In the Tourney scene, we see Tommen and Myrcella run to Tyrion like a father returning home, but not Joffrey.

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1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

It's better than the motives given by the books, but even so. Not that convincing. We know Joffrey is a sadistic bastard, but I can't see why kill Bran and not try to kill Tyrion for example. After all it was Tyrion who slaped him.

If "family" actually meant something even to Lord Tywin, then it's entirely possible it meant something to Prince Joffrey, too.

And, actually, we don't know that he didn't. Speaking of genuinely open questions, we still don't know why Ser Mandon Moore tried to off Tyrion. Joff is among the usual suspects (together with: Cersei, LF, or even Ser Mandon's own initiative).

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It's not entirely out of character for Joffrey, but it's still underwhelming AF. 

I think Mance would've been better, going with the whole wildling philosophy of putting sick children out of their misery, per Val: 

Quote

“Greyscale.”

“The grey death is what we call it.”

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

I don't think wildlings make a big distinction between greyscale and a crippled/comatose child. 

Plus we know Mance had a bag of silver, enough to bribe the catspaw. 

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

George said, once he had finished writing A Storm of Swords:

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at.

So, it's settled. We shouldn't waste more time in this.

And yes, as a mystery is one of George's weakest plots. Not only the resolution includes several hardly justified leaps of faith, but also Littlefinger lying about the ownership of the dagger in front of Varys, or stupidity of committing a high profile murder with an expensive recognizable weapon, are very weak spots. But it is what it is. George has decided it's a closed case, and we should treat is as such.

Well, Mance revealed to Jon about him crossing the Wall to attend the feast at Winterfell, taking with him a bag of silver, in ASOS.

Maybe GRRM, did reveal to us in the face who really was behind Bran's assassination, we just took the bs from a drunkyard and the oblivious for the reveal.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And how mance had a Valyrian blade dagger? 

He stole it from Robert's stash. Mance is a crafty guy, I think there's no doubt about that. 

Of course, the question would be Why would he need a Valyrian steel dagger if any old blade would do. But the same thing applies to Joffrey. Are we supposed to believe the catspaw didn’t have a knife on him? 

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8 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

He stole it from Robert's stash. Mance is a crafty guy, I think there's no doubt about that. 

Of course, the question would be Why would he need a Valyrian steel dagger if any old blade would do. But the same thing applies to Joffrey. Are we supposed to believe the catspaw didn’t have a knife on him? 

I always assumed the dagger was the real payment.  Killing the son of a lord who is in his fathers castle and being watched 24/7 is no easy task and getting caught is certain death.

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