Who tried to kill Bran?

[Ser Loras The Gay]

34 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The one from @Nittanian a few posts above.

Oh I see, I missed that haha

 

[hitman47]

it was the night king

[Snowmelter]

I was unaware that GRRM stated that the mystery was resolved.  It's always fun to speculate though.  Just another reason to be glad Joff is pushing up daisies.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

7 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

That's basicly it. If George said it, it was him and case closed. But we can't simply state it wasn't a bit underwhelming. But you're right even Martin is fallible and his work is too damn complex for him to keep track of all the plots

I don’t watch PJ’s videos so I don’t know the content. The information about Joffrey, Bran and the dagger is spread out in three books. I for one am happy that Martin actually ended this tiny cliffhanger.

Because of the letter to Cat from Lysa the Stark’s were suspicious of the Lannister’s. LF lies about the ownership of the dagger. He takes advantage of a situation to sow further discord between the Lannister’s and Stark’s. Cat happens upon Tyrion at an inn. She snatches Tyrion. The story moves on from there.

Three books with clues and hints spread out in Cat, Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion plus tidbits in Eddard & Sansa POV's.

I accept Martin’s version.

Why did Joffrey do it? I’m going with what Tyrion said:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII     The prince's own dagger had a jeweled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade, Tyrion seemed to recall. At least Joff had not been stupid enough to use that. Instead he went poking among his father's weapons. Robert Baratheon was a man of careless generosity, and would have given his son any dagger he wanted . . . but Tyrion guessed that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king's weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

The blade Joff chose was nice and plain. No goldwork, no jewels in the hilt, no silver inlay on the blade. King Robert never wore it, had likely forgotten he owned it. Yet the Valyrian steel was deadly sharp . . . sharp enough to slice through skin, flesh, and muscle in one quick stroke. I am no stranger to Valyrian steel. But he had been, hadn't he? Else he would never have been so foolish as to pick Littlefinger's knife.

The why of it still eluded him. Simple cruelty, perhaps? His nephew had that in abundance. It was all Tyrion could do not to retch up all the wine he'd drunk, piss in his breeches, or both. He squirmed uncomfortably. He ought to have held his tongue at breakfast. The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

 

A person would need to go back through all those early chapters to read how King Robert came to be in possession of that dagger and the description of the dagger. Did PJ address it?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII  I am no stranger to Valyrian steel, the boy had boasted.<snip> He ought to have seen it long ago. Jaime would never send another man to do his killing, and Cersei was too cunning to use a knife that could be traced back to her, but Joff, arrogant vicious stupid little wretch that he was . . .

You see that bolded line above, “The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me.” Some people use that as a means to say that Tyrion not Joffrey was the target of poisoning at the wedding.

Martin solved the Joffrey, Bran and dagger mystery. To bad he didn't solve some of the the other larger cliff hangers. Cracked pots are interesting iffin a person were to add some super glue to them.

[Maxxine]

I understand why people want Joffrey to not be behind trying to kill Bran. It is an underwhelming conclusion, but it's the one were given. LF logistically doesn't work. The only way it does is if LF just gave the command for the assassin to kill a Stark kid if he got a chance. Mance is an interesting theory I haven't heard before and is more of a possibility than LF. But I can't see Mance killing a little kid just for the sake of killing a little kid and even if he would he wouldn't send someone else to do it.

The other thing that works against Joffrey being behind it is what would be the point of another reveal at this point. What effect could it have on the story. Everyone involved is either dead or move on to bigger issues. Maybe LSH could be an issue for someone, but even she is more pressed about Robb's death and Bran's and Rickon's supposed deaths.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

35 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You see that bolded line above, “The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me.” Some people use that as a means to say that Tyrion not Joffrey was the target of poisoning at the wedding.

Martin solved the Joffrey, Bran and dagger mystery. To bad he didn't solve some of the the other larger cliff hangers. Cracked pots are interesting iffin a person were to add some super glue to them.

But as I said on the beggining of the thread, all the other points that lead Tyrion to this conclusion are utterly flawed. The valyrian steel part doesn't prove a thing. Most noble houses know about valyrian steel and Joffrey as a prince should've seen valyrian steel at some point of his life. So we have a drunk and angry Tyrion saying a bunch of non-related things and some things that weren't true (like the quote from Joffrey at the first book "send a dog to kill a dog" where Tyrion thought it was "a dog to kill a wolf" etc.) It's settled because MArtin told us so. But all the evidence we have is not enough for settle the case forever without any reasonable doubt.

[dsug]

I always found Joffrey doing it kind of unsatisfying, personally. That was an opportunity for a ton of cool intrigue, and it just got written off as joff doing it because he's a dick. meh. 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But as I said on the beggining of the thread, all the other points that lead Tyrion to this conclusion are utterly flawed.

You, as the originator will need to show that Tyrion's conclusions are flawed. Three books with clues and hints spread out in Cat, Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion plus tidbits in Eddard & Sansa POV's.

[snow is the man]

17 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

I thinks it's Joffrey, he would be the only one fool enough to arm an assasins with a valyrian steel dagger

yep

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You, as the originator will need to show that Tyrion's conclusions are flawed. Three books with clues and hints spread out in Cat, Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion plus tidbits in Eddard & Sansa POV's.

But I made my case '-'

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, dsug said:

I always found Joffrey doing it kind of unsatisfying, personally. That was an opportunity for a ton of cool intrigue, and it just got written off as joff doing it because he's a dick. meh. 

Exactly.

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But as I said on the beggining of the thread, all the other points that lead Tyrion to this conclusion are utterly flawed. The valyrian steel part doesn't prove a thing. Most noble houses know about valyrian steel and Joffrey as a prince should've seen valyrian steel at some point of his life. So we have a drunk and angry Tyrion saying a bunch of non-related things and some things that weren't true (like the quote from Joffrey at the first book "send a dog to kill a dog" where Tyrion thought it was "a dog to kill a wolf" etc.) It's settled because MArtin told us so. But all the evidence we have is not enough for settle the case forever without any reasonable doubt.

Unfortunately for you, there is that damn ellipsis...DOT DOT DOT...

As I said to you before, it's not the best thing GRRM has ever written.  His writing is flawed.  And that's why it feels like a cheap cop-out.  Now let me crawl away before the diehards attack me for daring to suggest that GRRM is anything less than a perfect author...       

[Clegane'sPup]

11 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But I made my case '-'

Quote

So, recently I've watched the last PJ video (a very good one for that matter) and he talked about the plot around Bran's attempted murder. In the books Tyrion reachs the conclusion that Joffrey was the one who sent the catspawn to kill Bran, but all the reasons he gives to support his claims are flawed.

It is so difficult to start at page one when I am on page five.

Damn, not only do I have to deal with tricksy LF, Varys and Mance now I have to pay attention to Ser Loras the Gay use of pronouns.

 

[Lord Wraith]

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If GRRM says it's Joffrey, I'm inclined to believe him, but it's doesn't sit well at all. I was hoping that he couldn't reveal more than that because it would give away too much and the details would come out later which would make everything slide into place.

How about this? Mance overhears Joff talking smack about Bran and Summer, so Mance offers to kill Bran gratis, but he's only a bard and doesn't have such a weapon. Joffrey provides Mance the weapon, and Mance pays the catspaw the silver. But Mance wants the catspaw to be caught so he leads him to believe that Catelyn won't be there, and he also makes sure Summer is able to get into the room (he was kept outside) to make sure Catelyn and Bran don't die. He would be very familiar with how wargs work.

I agree in all probability it is Joff since Martin basically says as much. Mance is a distant second but interesting option.

[BricksAndSparrows]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

At best, LF could have influenced Joff in a vague way to a certain ends which he *hoped* would benefit him, but I don't see how LF could have been involved in any detailed way. He'd know that a beneficial result was far from a certainty, and it could backfire. But this fits how LF operates.

Based on what Joff did, I'd say that whatever influence LF had would have been eclipsed by all together different motivations. If it was all Joff's doing, I would assume he picked up on the same vibes that Tyrion did in the breakfast scene with Jamie and Cersei. 

To rule LF out, I'd want to know the exact timeline, between when Bran fell and when the attempt on his life was made. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Based on what Joff did, I'd say that whatever influence LF had would have been eclipsed by all together different motivations. If it was all Joff's doing, I would assume he picked up on the same vibes that Tyrion did in the breakfast scene with Jamie and Cersei. 

To rule LF out, I'd want to know the exact timeline, between when Bran fell and when the attempt on his life was made. 

We never have a exact amount of days on the books, save some few excpetions. Maybe 2 weeks or less giving how bad cat was for being at all times with Bran.

[black_hart]

Sometimes I wonder whether PJ does his channel in his dayjob... trying to see how far you can push a narrative and still have people buying into it. How selectively are you willing to read? How much are you investing in it just for contrarianism, shock value? How much "X is the biggest liar." and "Y is always wrong." is still convincing more people than it pushes away?

[Ser Loras The Gay]

16 minutes ago, black_hart said:

Sometimes I wonder whether PJ does his channel in his dayjob... trying to see how far you can push a narrative and still have people buying into it. How selectively are you willing to read? How much are you investing in it just for contrarianism, shock value? How much "X is the biggest liar." and "Y is always wrong." is still convincing more people than it pushes away?

Dude, i'm not saying I like his work. But when something is done right we have to give it praise. Even if sometimes he goes too damn far he's very passionate about the series and the editing of his videos is good. With all those paited characters and picking the quotes from the books. Making a 20 minutes long video like that is hard as hell. But, coming back to the video in question. He makes very good points. The logic that Tyrion uses to reach his conclusions isn't the best one, and as people said here, it most likely Martin's own fault. He made the problem of who killed Bran difficult to conclude with the information that was given to us. He made this plot hard to reach a logical conclusion. It wasn't the best plot made by him, and we can only be sorry for that. As someone has said here, George himself said "the question is settled" but this is no argument for us, as readers, try to reach a different conclusion just for fun. What we discuss here will never become canon on it's own. For example, R + L = J could not be true, the person who'll decide it will be Martin and not the quality of our theories. So please, don't be such an ass for no reason mate. I understand that people here don't like PJ theories because they're most of the time too unbelivable and sometimes pure selective, but let's praise when it's done right shall we?

[John Suburbs]

22 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

snip

Here is how Littlefinger could be behind the assassination attempt without knowing about Bran's fall or anything else happening at Winterfell:

Before the royal party leaves King's Landing, LF knows why Robert is making such a long, arduous progress: to ask Ned to be Hand. The time is also ripe for Houses Stark and Lannister to start butting heads. So while still in the capital, LF gets Joffrey alone and tells him that Ned becoming hand is a grave threat to both Joffrey and House Lannister, something which would be reinforced if Joff hears Cersei and/or Jaime arguing about it. LF also tells Joffrey that the only way to prevent Ned from becoming hand would be if a major tragedy, say, the death of one of the children, were to befall the Starks, forcing Ned to decline the appointment.

Joffrey takes it from there. He hires the catspaw, gives him the dagger and tells him how to use the library fire to get Bran alone. This explains the clumsiness of the plan (it was all Joffrey, no involvement from LF at this point) and why the attempt did not occur until after the royal party had left Winterfell: for a while it appeared that the problem had been solved because Bran was sure to die. When it became evident he would live, and Ned took the job anyway, Joffrey set the plot in motion at the last minute. If Bran hadn't fallen, Joffrey would have selected one of the other children: probably Sansa.

This also squares with the SSMs: Joffrey did do it. The only thing we don't know is why.

 

P.S. to those who think it was Mance: How and why would Mance involve Joffrey on the assassination? What other explanation is there for Joffrey's reaction to Tyrion's mention of the dagger except that he knows all about the attempt on Bran.

[Colonel Green]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

Here is how Littlefinger could be behind the assassination attempt without knowing about Bran's fall or anything else happening at Winterfell:

Before the royal party leaves King's Landing, LF knows why Robert is making such a long, arduous progress: to ask Ned to be Hand. The time is also ripe for Houses Stark and Lannister to start butting heads. So while still in the capital, LF gets Joffrey alone and tells him that Ned becoming hand is a grave threat to both Joffrey and House Lannister, something which would be reinforced if Joff hears Cersei and/or Jaime arguing about it. LF also tells Joffrey that the only way to prevent Ned from becoming hand would be if a major tragedy, say, the death of one of the children, were to befall the Starks, forcing Ned to decline the appointment.

Joffrey takes it from there. He hires the catspaw, gives him the dagger and tells him how to use the library fire to get Bran alone. This explains the clumsiness of the plan (it was all Joffrey, no involvement from LF at this point) and why the attempt did not occur until after the royal party had left Winterfell: for a while it appeared that the problem had been solved because Bran was sure to die. When it became evident he would live, and Ned took the job anyway, Joffrey set the plot in motion at the last minute. If Bran hadn't fallen, Joffrey would have selected one of the other children: probably Sansa.

This also squares with the SSMs: Joffrey did do it. The only thing we don't know is why.

That doesn't make any sense, because it's contrary to what Littlefinger is trying to accomplish at that point.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

That doesn't make any sense, because it's contrary to what Littlefinger is trying to accomplish at that point.

"Everything goes exactly according to my sinister plan. Stark refused Robert and stayed in Winterfell, and so did his entire family, and by his family I mean Cat. Robert offered the job to Stannis, Stannis took it, I'm fired, my accounts are under investigation... wait, WHAT?!"